.
Thirdly why should I give constructive feedback? .
And the penny drops.
Don't feed him.
He's copy /pasting the same rant in multiple threads now, has no actual feedback to give and seemingly just wants to illicit reactions so that he can point to his rant as being validated.
Oh, so I'm a troll now. By the way, you were one of the persons I had in mind in that rant, and you forgot a crucial last bit there in the quote.
To clarify further: I choose to paste it to the other topic regarding BT as I felt it was more appropriate there watching the topic-flow, and I would probably get more feedback from it (And I did, just haven't gotten around to posting it yet as it requires some work).
You've yet to slam any facts to the table, claiming in multiple instances that all the changes have been made in favor of the competitive players. Could I get some examples?
To not steer too far to the waters of off-topic, just name one thing that made the new Docking more unfriendly for casual players and can be considered 'picking on the little casual guy'. I've yet to hear anything other than "but it's not the same map", which is not really an argument. If the new map is better, why cry? If the new map is worse, why not tell us why exactly is it worse other than fear of change?
Not all, most, and the comment on "the casual guy" was directed towards the forums, however I see now that could easily be misunderstood.
When it comes to Docking I would say the increase in intensity of pushing from the marines, and the tightness of the corridors combined with going from 5 to 4tp.
I believe someone posted the time it takes from Terminal to the major locations of an attack, which locks down aliens completely(Not sure if the time is lower on the new docking, but it certainly feels that way). Besides I believe as Tom-R(also page one i think), that this could have been solved in a much simpler way than to rearrange the entire north face of the map and make it 2 chefs worth of work(which is quite obvious, tho was willing to bet money the same map creator was behind decent, glad I didn't). UWE with this removed Docking's strongest pull in public games, 5 tech points, "ensuring" at least a half decent tech game with chances for both sides to bounce back in ways requiring a hell of a lot more in a 4 tech point map. From a competitive standpoint I would say good, it's less forgiving, but quite the opposite for public. Not a fan of the new rooms either(pipes for the sake of pipes etc. with to me little focus on the overall connectivity of the rooms(no not in physical form, but artistically). However I feel Tom-R said it best, so I'll refer to his post as well. Granted personally I'm leaning more towards splitting the map into two different versions for competitive and public, where the public version would only solve the pressing issues of Stability plus arcing.
You've yet to slam any facts to the table, claiming in multiple instances that all the changes have been made in favor of the competitive players. Could I get some examples?
To not steer too far to the waters of off-topic, just name one thing that made the new Docking more unfriendly for casual players and can be considered 'picking on the little casual guy'. I've yet to hear anything other than "but it's not the same map", which is not really an argument. If the new map is better, why cry? If the new map is worse, why not tell us why exactly is it worse other than fear of change?
If you have yet to see any actual argument for why the map is far worse than it used to be, then you clearly have yet to actually open your eyes.
I've yet to see, you've yet to provide.
Try reading past the first page.
The only argument with a bit of backing up is the fact that cafeteria's tech point got removed. It's a good point. I just personally don't see it as a problem. Cafe only served as a natural second tech point for marines, and in pub play it encouraged an excruciatingly detrimental mentality of having to cap that tech point as soon as possible, because it felt so natural. Commanders constantly ignored the northern side of the map (you know, the exact place where marines could easily deny and lock down the aliens) during the first minutes of the round, because of course they had to get that quick phase gate to cafe, it's a tech point after all. Removing that tech point might have given pub marines a bit more incentive to take the early fights to where they actually matter. It won't make the marines too much weaker either, as holding only cafe and terminal would be a disaster no matter whether you held one or two tech points that way.
Furthermore, you cannot really compare a 4-tech-point Docking to a 4-tech-point Veil and claim that 4-tech-point maps don't work. Veil is the only sampling you have, and that map is unique in so many ways that you cannot simply state that all of its problems stem from the fact that it has one fewer tech point. Besides, Veil works rather fine.
You've yet to slam any facts to the table, claiming in multiple instances that all the changes have been made in favor of the competitive players. Could I get some examples?
To not steer too far to the waters of off-topic, just name one thing that made the new Docking more unfriendly for casual players and can be considered 'picking on the little casual guy'. I've yet to hear anything other than "but it's not the same map", which is not really an argument. If the new map is better, why cry? If the new map is worse, why not tell us why exactly is it worse other than fear of change?
If you have yet to see any actual argument for why the map is far worse than it used to be, then you clearly have yet to actually open your eyes.
I've yet to see, you've yet to provide.
Try reading past the first page.
The only argument with a bit of backing up is the fact that cafeteria's tech point got removed. It's a good point. I just personally don't see it as a problem. Cafe only served as a natural second tech point for marines, and in pub play it encouraged an excruciatingly detrimental mentality of having to cap that tech point as soon as possible, because it felt so natural. Commanders constantly ignored the northern side of the map (you know, the exact place where marines could easily deny and lock down the aliens) during the first minutes of the round, because of course they had to get that quick phase gate to cafe, it's a tech point after all. Removing that tech point might have given pub marines a bit more incentive to take the early fights to where they actually matter. It won't make the marines too much weaker either, as holding only cafe and terminal would be a disaster no matter whether you held one or two tech points that way.
Furthermore, you cannot really compare a 4-tech-point Docking to a 4-tech-point Veil and claim that 4-tech-point maps don't work. Veil is the only sampling you have, and that map is unique in so many ways that you cannot simply state that all of its problems stem from the fact that it has one fewer tech point. Besides, Veil works rather fine.
Having played on the new Docking, I can confirm that basically all games are one-sided and short. You will never have any epic 60+ minute games with lots of back and forth action and maxed tech battles. There are never any comebacks. Veil has the exact same problems.
As for your point on Cafeteria, of course it is going to be treated as a natural second tech point for Marines; they always start next to it or in it. The same is true of Generator for Aliens. That isn't any reason for removing the tech point.
Funny, the longest games I've seen have been on veil, with both sides getting 2 tech points and thus not completely obliterating the other.
I'm not going to get locked in a battle of anecdotal evidence, though, and since it seems you cannot come up with anything else, I think we're done.
The reasoning for cafe's removal because it's a marine natural was that it's a bad natural. It gives the marines absolutely nothing. It's easily the worst location on the map, apart from landing pad, to have a base in. On pubs, it's still the most common place for the fast first phase gate, with early pushes suffering because the marines think they don't have to be overly aggressive anymore now that they already control a second tech point. In every game on Docking, I have to tell the marines who went from terminal to cafe to keep moving forward and apply pressure, but many of them still stay behind to cover the 'crucial' tech point. In a map like summit this isn't as detrimental, since every tech point is at the same time an offence towards the aliens (with the exception of the other neighbouring tech point in a close-spawn situation) and are therefore much more valuable, and the natural reaction of securing the tech point is much more justified.
to illicit reactions so that he can point to his rant as being validated.
Nice to see you ended up giving feedback though, and i agree with 5 TP argument, although i think stability wasn't the only issue with the previous version.
Funny, the longest games I've seen have been on veil, with both sides getting 2 tech points and thus not completely obliterating the other.
I'm not going to get locked in a battle of anecdotal evidence, though, and since it seems you cannot come up with anything else, I think we're done.
The reasoning for cafe's removal because it's a marine natural was that it's a bad natural. It gives the marines absolutely nothing. It's easily the worst location on the map, apart from landing pad, to have a base in. On pubs, it's still the most common place for the fast first phase gate, with early pushes suffering because the marines think they don't have to be overly aggressive anymore now that they already control a second tech point. In every game on Docking, I have to tell the marines who went from terminal to cafe to keep moving forward and apply pressure, but many of them still stay behind to cover the 'crucial' tech point. In a map like summit this isn't as detrimental, since every tech point is at the same time an offence towards the aliens (with the exception of the other neighbouring tech point in a close-spawn situation) and are therefore much more valuable, and the natural reaction of securing the tech point is much more justified.
You talk about not arguing over anecdotal evidence and then post nothing but anecdotal evidence. Come back when you have an actual reason for removing Cafeteria.
Funny, the longest games I've seen have been on veil, with both sides getting 2 tech points and thus not completely obliterating the other.
I'm not going to get locked in a battle of anecdotal evidence, though, and since it seems you cannot come up with anything else, I think we're done.
The reasoning for cafe's removal because it's a marine natural was that it's a bad natural. It gives the marines absolutely nothing. It's easily the worst location on the map, apart from landing pad, to have a base in. On pubs, it's still the most common place for the fast first phase gate, with early pushes suffering because the marines think they don't have to be overly aggressive anymore now that they already control a second tech point. In every game on Docking, I have to tell the marines who went from terminal to cafe to keep moving forward and apply pressure, but many of them still stay behind to cover the 'crucial' tech point. In a map like summit this isn't as detrimental, since every tech point is at the same time an offence towards the aliens (with the exception of the other neighbouring tech point in a close-spawn situation) and are therefore much more valuable, and the natural reaction of securing the tech point is much more justified.
You talk about not arguing over anecdotal evidence and then post nothing but anecdotal evidence. Come back when you have an actual reason for removing Cafeteria.
We have reached a stalemate. The only solution is to ascend to a transcendental plane via solemn meditation.
What marine pressure. The northern rooms are so alien biased that a single skulk can take down 3 marines and still chuggle on top of it.
1 marine stability has 2 spots depending on what hive the aliens have (gen/dep) and then he's set up. Having 2 marines in stability covering each other is just stupendously strong.
1 marine maintenance has a harder time agreed but it really isn't that difficult to position youself.
I mentioned about moving/creating some vents to stop these ridiculous positions a few posts ago. This should be able to balance the short travel distance to deny both maintenance and stability after a courtyard pg / at the beginning of the game.
So back to what I was saying. Can we get Cafe tech point back sometime soon? The 4TP thing isn't working out and leaves the southwestern part of Docking as just empty space with no real point to it other than RT harass.
What marine pressure. The northern rooms are so alien biased that a single skulk can take down 3 marines and still chuggle on top of it.
1 marine stability has 2 spots depending on what hive the aliens have (gen/dep) and then he's set up. Having 2 marines in stability covering each other is just stupendously strong.
1 marine maintenance has a harder time agreed but it really isn't that difficult to position youself.
I mentioned about moving/creating some vents to stop these ridiculous positions a few posts ago. This should be able to balance the short travel distance to deny both maintenance and stability after a courtyard pg / at the beginning of the game.
Stability is aids np but no way you do a wallhopping skulk in maintenance.
Yes, it is sad. But not for the reason you're implying.
It's pretty simple: most people don't like the map, so they don't play the map. It's only sad that a really fun and popular map was taken away from them for no reason.
Could you elaborate why it is less fun for you? because for me its more fun, so simply stating that its less fun does not help much.
It doesn't really matter.
He found the old Docking fun, and feels the new one is different enough that it's not docking anymore. Even if the new one is better it comes at a high cost.
(Some sentences are copied from other discussions in steam/chats, please forgive me that I dont marked the quotes with links to the original postings.)
I’m a public / casual gamer.
I’m most of the time playing on public servers with 18-24 slots.
I can tell you some reasons what I dislike on the new docking,
but this is only my opinion. (and please don't take it as offense!)
I don’t have “proven facts” for everything... my only fact is:
before the update I had fun playing docking. Now this fun is gone. (Isn’t that enough evidence?)
Also most of the reasons where already told, but again:
1) Four Tech Points
I'm no fan of 4 Tech Point Maps (I was thankful that there was only veil left - until now).
The moment where one team has only one tech point left; the round is (most of the time) over!
Never saw the concede function used more often than on 4 tech point maps (veil and now docking).
Most games on 5 tech point maps with MORE than 12 players are:
One side is holding 2 tech points and the other one is holding 3 (or both are fighting hard to get the 3 rd tech point) – there are still chances to win the game, everything is open. (Because it is hard to defend 3 or even 4 places, when all are under attack)
I saw many epic “game changers” on 5 tech point maps.
I’m really missing that “game changers” on 4 tech point maps.
Most of the time the people are conceding in the moment where the team has only one tech point left
and that happens MUCH faster on 4 tech point maps.
(Have the feeling on veil that this is happening in about 75% of all games.)
2) Cafeteria is now dead space.
Removing Cafe as a tech point I think is a mistake. Often Aliens produce a turnaround by taking Cafe. Furthermore, by removing random spawn points, the game more or less focuses on Departures. Whoever take that, wins (more often than not) the game. In an attempt to remove stability as the core piece of docking, they instead made it departures. In my Opinion:
A good map should never be reliant upon a single piece to being the key. (nano on Veil anyone?)
Actually you can remove Cafe from the map now, move the RT to Landing Pad and build a direct & shorter way to bar... or remove bar and build double ress in Cafe (to make it more attractive / meanful)
3) The northern mice maze
The northern part of the map is feeling and looking like a mice maze. There is (for my feeling) not enough space. That is a mess especially when you play with 18, 20 or 24 players. The players hinder each other.
4) Action Overload with bigger amount of players.
Map design seems optimized for competitive.
The northern part of the Map seems faster, more action based for a smaller group of players.
That is fine - when you are playing with 12 guys total....
But please take a look at the public server list and watch carefully what kind of public servers are full of players most of the time. 18, 20, 24. (Or am I using a different server browser than you?) Now please try the new docking with 24 players - more than one time! - And tell me your opinion.
Especially when you try to get and hold (only for example) a Phase Gate at Strand / Junction / Stability Monitoring => and some players try to defend that Gate. There is no room for these players. They hinder each other. So you have to build the gates fixed at the tech points or at ball court, if you reach it… and that changes the game dynamics.
5) Never change a running system
I personally cannot see any progress for the map.
I still can’t believe that the new map is now “more balanced” after this giant redesign.
In my opinion there is now, like every time, lots of stuff to be changed and fixed... which will come up over the time.
So we will see many changes & fixes (again) to the “new docking”.
Until it got completely redesigned again... and again...
This is getting a never ending story and the game and maps will never be “finished”.
Question: How is that a progress for this map or the game overall?
What the game really needs, in my opinion, are NEW maps...
Not old maps that change with every update! (Until everybody lost his favorite map)
Which leads to the point:
6) It is no modification; it is a complete new map.
I can understand small changes to make a map more balanced at all... like the ones before at east wing for example…
but the recent changes to docking are, in my opinion, no "modifications".
It FEELS and PLAYS like a complete new map...
(And I think that is a point nearly everybody can agree.)
So the question for me is:
Why replacing the old docking instead of releasing the map as what it really is:
A „docking look alike" complete new (more competitive focused) map.
Again this is my subjective opinion and I know not everybody does agree... and of course you can laugh about that, tell me “this noob has no idea about the game!” And call me the (quote) “casual pub player who doesn't know every nuance of the game”.
If that is the only accepted truth and makes you feel better...
I love how you quote me from a post written with a friendly tone saying that there's nothing wrong with being a casual and make it sound like an insult.
I love how you quote me from a post written with a friendly tone saying that there's nothing wrong with being a casual and make it sound like an insult.
Good points about the map though.
Okay, I’m sorry for that.
I admit that was not fair…
But even if you did not mean it…
The statement:
“There's nothing wrong with being a casual pub player who doesn't know every nuance of the game and cares more about fun than balance but still has an opinion which should be, and is, as respected as everyone else's.”
Was understood / implies for me:
“The casual gamer has no clue about the REAL game.”
How would you understand a statement that sounds like?
“There's nothing wrong with being a competitive player who doesn't know every nuance of the game and cares more about playing fast battles with professional attitude than having fun but still has an opinion which should be, and is, respected as everyone else’s”
For me it is feeling somehow like a “diss”.
(I’m sorry when I got that wrong… you know English is not my native language.)
I love how you quote me from a post written with a friendly tone saying that there's nothing wrong with being a casual and make it sound like an insult.
Good points about the map though.
Okay, I’m sorry for that.
I admit that was not fair…
But even if you did not mean it…
The statement:
“There's nothing wrong with being a casual pub player who doesn't know every nuance of the game and cares more about fun than balance but still has an opinion which should be, and is, as respected as everyone else's.”
Was understood / implies for me:
“The casual gamer has no clue about the REAL game.”
How would you understand a statement that sounds like?
“There's nothing wrong with being a competitive player who doesn't know every nuance of the game and cares more about playing fast battles with professional attitude than having fun but still has an opinion which should be, and is, respected as everyone else’s”
For me it is feeling somehow like a “diss”.
(I’m sorry when I got that wrong… you know English is not my native language.)
Regards
I think what he was trying to say was that there are some people who try to disregard a pub player's opinion because that said pub player does not understand the finer nuances of the game and that those who do so are unfair. By analogy, the patient may not know the nuances that go into a particular healthcare option, but that doesn't mean that a doctor should necessarily ignore what they have to say, because afterall, they are consumers. In this case, pub players make up the majority of consumers, so one must be careful not to succumb to an elitist viewpoint which does not consider the viewpoints of the less knowledgeable masses.
Seem to drop to ~35 fps around the Generator area. When I brought up console had a message : "114 memory leaks in client world." Rest of the map was fine, just around Generator and Pressure seemed to plummet.
Unsure if it was a problem on my side of things or a map problem. I've heard the same from a few other people about the same general area.
I'm no fan of 4 Tech Point Maps (I was thankful that there was only veil left - until now).
The moment where one team has only one tech point left; the round is (most of the time) over!
Never saw the concede function used more often than on 4 tech point maps (veil and now docking).
Most games on 5 tech point maps with MORE than 12 players are:
One side is holding 2 tech points and the other one is holding 3 (or both are fighting hard to get the 3 rd tech point) – there are still chances to win the game, everything is open. (Because it is hard to defend 3 or even 4 places, when all are under attack)
I saw many epic “game changers” on 5 tech point maps.
I’m really missing that “game changers” on 4 tech point maps.
Most of the time the people are conceding in the moment where the team has only one tech point left
and that happens MUCH faster on 4 tech point maps.
(Have the feeling on veil that this is happening in about 75% of all games.)
In my experience it's the 4 techpoint maps (veil) that i've had the most exciting pub games on. The only real difference between a 4 and 5 techpoint map is aliens don't have a onos factory to pump out a dozen onos eggs for players that can't stay alive. In 4 techpoint maps you must live to win the game as alien or kill higher lifeforms to win as marine. You loose too many fades or onos and it's over (as it should be). They highlight the importance of winning engagements and killing lifeforms.
The downside to 4 techpoint maps is pub games are often imbalanced and they can lead to games where the 1 team has a hard time even getting out of spawn.
Removing Cafe as a tech point I think is a mistake. Often Aliens produce a turnaround by taking Cafe. Furthermore, by removing random spawn points, the game more or less focuses on Departures. Whoever take that, wins (more often than not) the game. In an attempt to remove stability as the core piece of docking, they instead made it departures. In my Opinion:
A good map should never be reliant upon a single piece to being the key. (nano on Veil anyone?)
Actually you can remove Cafe from the map now, move the RT to Landing Pad and build a direct & shorter way to bar... or remove bar and build double ress in Cafe (to make it more attractive / meanful)
Agreed with the bolt part. It is dead space for sure. As I mentioned previously in this thread i think the space between terminal and bar needs a redesign if we keep a 4 tech point map.
The northern part of the map is feeling and looking like a mice maze. There is (for my feeling) not enough space. That is a mess especially when you play with 18, 20 or 24 players. The players hinder each other.
I disagree with this as well. It's a maze because you don't know the map yet. Every map is a maze when you first are attempting to learn it.
Map design seems optimized for competitive.
The northern part of the Map seems faster, more action based for a smaller group of players.
That is fine - when you are playing with 12 guys total....
But please take a look at the public server list and watch carefully what kind of public servers are full of players most of the time. 18, 20, 24. (Or am I using a different server browser than you?) Now please try the new docking with 24 players - more than one time! - And tell me your opinion.
Especially when you try to get and hold (only for example) a Phase Gate at Strand / Junction / Stability Monitoring => and some players try to defend that Gate. There is no room for these players. They hinder each other. So you have to build the gates fixed at the tech points or at ball court, if you reach it… and that changes the game dynamics.
I agree in certain sections of the map for sure. There are choke points on the map that seem to hurt game play. Like the area just west of departures is just too tight imo.
I personally cannot see any progress for the map.
I still can’t believe that the new map is now “more balanced” after this giant redesign.
In my opinion there is now, like every time, lots of stuff to be changed and fixed... which will come up over the time.
So we will see many changes & fixes (again) to the “new docking”.
Until it got completely redesigned again... and again...
This is getting a never ending story and the game and maps will never be “finished”.
Question: How is that a progress for this map or the game overall?
What the game really needs, in my opinion, are NEW maps...
Not old maps that change with every update! (Until everybody lost his favorite map)
The goal was making it more competitive and at the same time a more balanced map will make for a better pub map in the end. The map was rather unbalanced on a 6v6 level. Sightly less so in the higher player numbers you still see in pubs but still. From my experience it's better in the balance side now. People I feel just have a hard time accepting change.
Seem to drop to ~35 fps around the Generator area. When I brought up console had a message : "114 memory leaks in client world." Rest of the map was fine, just around Generator and Pressure seemed to plummet.
Unsure if it was a problem on my side of things or a map problem. I've heard the same from a few other people about the same general area.
I can't say I've noticed any major drops for myself or heard mention of it until now. I'll look into it when I have the time. Destroying ns2 takes up a lot of effort.
You're bound to get some FPS drops in generator, it's a big area to render with a lot of stuff going on inside of it. But there shouldn't be any real reasons for it to tank hard.
Comments
To clarify further: I choose to paste it to the other topic regarding BT as I felt it was more appropriate there watching the topic-flow, and I would probably get more feedback from it (And I did, just haven't gotten around to posting it yet as it requires some work).
Nice job proving my point about ad hominem.
Not all, most, and the comment on "the casual guy" was directed towards the forums, however I see now that could easily be misunderstood.
When it comes to Docking I would say the increase in intensity of pushing from the marines, and the tightness of the corridors combined with going from 5 to 4tp.
I believe someone posted the time it takes from Terminal to the major locations of an attack, which locks down aliens completely(Not sure if the time is lower on the new docking, but it certainly feels that way). Besides I believe as Tom-R(also page one i think), that this could have been solved in a much simpler way than to rearrange the entire north face of the map and make it 2 chefs worth of work(which is quite obvious, tho was willing to bet money the same map creator was behind decent, glad I didn't). UWE with this removed Docking's strongest pull in public games, 5 tech points, "ensuring" at least a half decent tech game with chances for both sides to bounce back in ways requiring a hell of a lot more in a 4 tech point map. From a competitive standpoint I would say good, it's less forgiving, but quite the opposite for public. Not a fan of the new rooms either(pipes for the sake of pipes etc. with to me little focus on the overall connectivity of the rooms(no not in physical form, but artistically). However I feel Tom-R said it best, so I'll refer to his post as well. Granted personally I'm leaning more towards splitting the map into two different versions for competitive and public, where the public version would only solve the pressing issues of Stability plus arcing.
The only argument with a bit of backing up is the fact that cafeteria's tech point got removed. It's a good point. I just personally don't see it as a problem. Cafe only served as a natural second tech point for marines, and in pub play it encouraged an excruciatingly detrimental mentality of having to cap that tech point as soon as possible, because it felt so natural. Commanders constantly ignored the northern side of the map (you know, the exact place where marines could easily deny and lock down the aliens) during the first minutes of the round, because of course they had to get that quick phase gate to cafe, it's a tech point after all. Removing that tech point might have given pub marines a bit more incentive to take the early fights to where they actually matter. It won't make the marines too much weaker either, as holding only cafe and terminal would be a disaster no matter whether you held one or two tech points that way.
Furthermore, you cannot really compare a 4-tech-point Docking to a 4-tech-point Veil and claim that 4-tech-point maps don't work. Veil is the only sampling you have, and that map is unique in so many ways that you cannot simply state that all of its problems stem from the fact that it has one fewer tech point. Besides, Veil works rather fine.
Having played on the new Docking, I can confirm that basically all games are one-sided and short. You will never have any epic 60+ minute games with lots of back and forth action and maxed tech battles. There are never any comebacks. Veil has the exact same problems.
As for your point on Cafeteria, of course it is going to be treated as a natural second tech point for Marines; they always start next to it or in it. The same is true of Generator for Aliens. That isn't any reason for removing the tech point.
I'm not going to get locked in a battle of anecdotal evidence, though, and since it seems you cannot come up with anything else, I think we're done.
The reasoning for cafe's removal because it's a marine natural was that it's a bad natural. It gives the marines absolutely nothing. It's easily the worst location on the map, apart from landing pad, to have a base in. On pubs, it's still the most common place for the fast first phase gate, with early pushes suffering because the marines think they don't have to be overly aggressive anymore now that they already control a second tech point. In every game on Docking, I have to tell the marines who went from terminal to cafe to keep moving forward and apply pressure, but many of them still stay behind to cover the 'crucial' tech point. In a map like summit this isn't as detrimental, since every tech point is at the same time an offence towards the aliens (with the exception of the other neighbouring tech point in a close-spawn situation) and are therefore much more valuable, and the natural reaction of securing the tech point is much more justified.
Nice to see you ended up giving feedback though, and i agree with 5 TP argument, although i think stability wasn't the only issue with the previous version.
You talk about not arguing over anecdotal evidence and then post nothing but anecdotal evidence. Come back when you have an actual reason for removing Cafeteria.
We have reached a stalemate. The only solution is to ascend to a transcendental plane via solemn meditation.
1 marine stability has 2 spots depending on what hive the aliens have (gen/dep) and then he's set up. Having 2 marines in stability covering each other is just stupendously strong.
1 marine maintenance has a harder time agreed but it really isn't that difficult to position youself.
I mentioned about moving/creating some vents to stop these ridiculous positions a few posts ago. This should be able to balance the short travel distance to deny both maintenance and stability after a courtyard pg / at the beginning of the game.
Stability is aids np but no way you do a wallhopping skulk in maintenance.
Now go to the shame hole and think about what you did. Don't come out before we find someone else to be sent there.
Funnily enough I have yet to play the new Docking. I always want to, but it never seems to show up in the server rotation.
Some servers have removed Docking from the rotation and the ones with a vote function almost never vote for it anymore. It's sad.
It's pretty simple: most people don't like the map, so they don't play the map. It's only sad that a really fun and popular map was taken away from them for no reason.
It doesn't really matter.
He found the old Docking fun, and feels the new one is different enough that it's not docking anymore. Even if the new one is better it comes at a high cost.
i called the cops, you're going to jail for a long time buddy
How can you kill that which is not alive?
I’m a public / casual gamer.
I’m most of the time playing on public servers with 18-24 slots.
I can tell you some reasons what I dislike on the new docking,
but this is only my opinion. (and please don't take it as offense!)
I don’t have “proven facts” for everything... my only fact is:
before the update I had fun playing docking. Now this fun is gone. (Isn’t that enough evidence?)
Also most of the reasons where already told, but again:
1) Four Tech Points
I'm no fan of 4 Tech Point Maps (I was thankful that there was only veil left - until now).
The moment where one team has only one tech point left; the round is (most of the time) over!
Never saw the concede function used more often than on 4 tech point maps (veil and now docking).
Most games on 5 tech point maps with MORE than 12 players are:
One side is holding 2 tech points and the other one is holding 3 (or both are fighting hard to get the 3 rd tech point) – there are still chances to win the game, everything is open. (Because it is hard to defend 3 or even 4 places, when all are under attack)
I saw many epic “game changers” on 5 tech point maps.
I’m really missing that “game changers” on 4 tech point maps.
Most of the time the people are conceding in the moment where the team has only one tech point left
and that happens MUCH faster on 4 tech point maps.
(Have the feeling on veil that this is happening in about 75% of all games.)
2) Cafeteria is now dead space.
Removing Cafe as a tech point I think is a mistake. Often Aliens produce a turnaround by taking Cafe. Furthermore, by removing random spawn points, the game more or less focuses on Departures. Whoever take that, wins (more often than not) the game. In an attempt to remove stability as the core piece of docking, they instead made it departures. In my Opinion:
A good map should never be reliant upon a single piece to being the key. (nano on Veil anyone?)
Actually you can remove Cafe from the map now, move the RT to Landing Pad and build a direct & shorter way to bar... or remove bar and build double ress in Cafe (to make it more attractive / meanful)
3) The northern mice maze
The northern part of the map is feeling and looking like a mice maze. There is (for my feeling) not enough space. That is a mess especially when you play with 18, 20 or 24 players. The players hinder each other.
4) Action Overload with bigger amount of players.
Map design seems optimized for competitive.
The northern part of the Map seems faster, more action based for a smaller group of players.
That is fine - when you are playing with 12 guys total....
But please take a look at the public server list and watch carefully what kind of public servers are full of players most of the time. 18, 20, 24. (Or am I using a different server browser than you?) Now please try the new docking with 24 players - more than one time! - And tell me your opinion.
Especially when you try to get and hold (only for example) a Phase Gate at Strand / Junction / Stability Monitoring => and some players try to defend that Gate. There is no room for these players. They hinder each other. So you have to build the gates fixed at the tech points or at ball court, if you reach it… and that changes the game dynamics.
5) Never change a running system
I personally cannot see any progress for the map.
I still can’t believe that the new map is now “more balanced” after this giant redesign.
In my opinion there is now, like every time, lots of stuff to be changed and fixed... which will come up over the time.
So we will see many changes & fixes (again) to the “new docking”.
Until it got completely redesigned again... and again...
This is getting a never ending story and the game and maps will never be “finished”.
Question: How is that a progress for this map or the game overall?
What the game really needs, in my opinion, are NEW maps...
Not old maps that change with every update! (Until everybody lost his favorite map)
Which leads to the point:
6) It is no modification; it is a complete new map.
I can understand small changes to make a map more balanced at all... like the ones before at east wing for example…
but the recent changes to docking are, in my opinion, no "modifications".
It FEELS and PLAYS like a complete new map...
(And I think that is a point nearly everybody can agree.)
So the question for me is:
Why replacing the old docking instead of releasing the map as what it really is:
A „docking look alike" complete new (more competitive focused) map.
Again this is my subjective opinion and I know not everybody does agree... and of course you can laugh about that, tell me “this noob has no idea about the game!” And call me the (quote) “casual pub player who doesn't know every nuance of the game”.
If that is the only accepted truth and makes you feel better...
Anyway… I will test / try out this solution for me and my friends… and will suggest it the few pub-admins in my contact list:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=152754783
Maybe we all get happy with this solution.
Best Regards
I love how you quote me from a post written with a friendly tone saying that there's nothing wrong with being a casual and make it sound like an insult.
Good points about the map though.
Okay, I’m sorry for that.
I admit that was not fair…
But even if you did not mean it…
The statement:
“There's nothing wrong with being a casual pub player who doesn't know every nuance of the game and cares more about fun than balance but still has an opinion which should be, and is, as respected as everyone else's.”
Was understood / implies for me:
“The casual gamer has no clue about the REAL game.”
How would you understand a statement that sounds like?
“There's nothing wrong with being a competitive player who doesn't know every nuance of the game and cares more about playing fast battles with professional attitude than having fun but still has an opinion which should be, and is, respected as everyone else’s”
For me it is feeling somehow like a “diss”.
(I’m sorry when I got that wrong… you know English is not my native language.)
Regards
I think what he was trying to say was that there are some people who try to disregard a pub player's opinion because that said pub player does not understand the finer nuances of the game and that those who do so are unfair. By analogy, the patient may not know the nuances that go into a particular healthcare option, but that doesn't mean that a doctor should necessarily ignore what they have to say, because afterall, they are consumers. In this case, pub players make up the majority of consumers, so one must be careful not to succumb to an elitist viewpoint which does not consider the viewpoints of the less knowledgeable masses.
Unsure if it was a problem on my side of things or a map problem. I've heard the same from a few other people about the same general area.
The downside to 4 techpoint maps is pub games are often imbalanced and they can lead to games where the 1 team has a hard time even getting out of spawn.
Agreed with the bolt part. It is dead space for sure. As I mentioned previously in this thread i think the space between terminal and bar needs a redesign if we keep a 4 tech point map.
I disagree with this as well. It's a maze because you don't know the map yet. Every map is a maze when you first are attempting to learn it.
I agree in certain sections of the map for sure. There are choke points on the map that seem to hurt game play. Like the area just west of departures is just too tight imo.
The goal was making it more competitive and at the same time a more balanced map will make for a better pub map in the end. The map was rather unbalanced on a 6v6 level. Sightly less so in the higher player numbers you still see in pubs but still. From my experience it's better in the balance side now. People I feel just have a hard time accepting change.
I can't say I've noticed any major drops for myself or heard mention of it until now. I'll look into it when I have the time. Destroying ns2 takes up a lot of effort.