fades are restricted to shadow stepping infront of a marine and holding down the button until he dies
regular ns2 fades on the other hand can continuously make 1 swipe passes because the shadow step is retarded
Fixed.
I've practiced BT fade against some of the best shots in the game and can reliably kill them 1v1. It needs to be played more hit and run because you don't have the invincibility that an instantaneous 20 speed shadowstep gives you.
If the Fade is going to be relegated to being a 1v1 Marine killer, then it should have its cost reduced to 30 pRes as it simply isn't worth the 50 pRes in its current state.
fades are restricted to shadow stepping infront of a marine and holding down the button until he dies
regular ns2 fades on the other hand can continuously make 1 swipe passes because the shadow step is retarded
Fixed.
I've practiced BT fade against some of the best shots in the game and can reliably kill them 1v1. It needs to be played more hit and run because you don't have the invincibility that an instantaneous 20 speed shadowstep gives you.
If the Fade is going to be relegated to being a 1v1 Marine killer, then it should have its cost reduced to 30 pRes as it simply isn't worth the 50 pRes in its current state.
A single fade should never have felt comfortable diving into a group of 3 shotguns. I believe this was a flaw of the old movement, particularly shadowstep.
fades are restricted to shadow stepping infront of a marine and holding down the button until he dies
regular ns2 fades on the other hand can continuously make 1 swipe passes because the shadow step is retarded
Fixed.
I've practiced BT fade against some of the best shots in the game and can reliably kill them 1v1. It needs to be played more hit and run because you don't have the invincibility that an instantaneous 20 speed shadowstep gives you.
If the Fade is going to be relegated to being a 1v1 Marine killer, then it should have its cost reduced to 30 pRes as it simply isn't worth the 50 pRes in its current state.
A single fade should never have felt comfortable diving into a group of 3 shotguns. I believe this was a flaw of the old movement, particularly shadowstep.
The current Fade can't take on 2 shotguns, even though they cost less than the Fade.
How about we just maintain rifle spread as it is in Live, there have never been any number of complaints regarding to the rifle in live... infact if anyone ever has I guarantee it's been a singular vocal minority. We're intently ignoring one of the oldest adages in the book here when it comes to the rifle spread....
"IF IT'S NOT BROKE, DON'T FIX IT"
*edit*
Still in regards LIVE rifle... The fact that more bullets fell within the center of the spread should have been the intended function to begin with not changing it to what it is now to create the uniform "best of luck to you" spread.
How about we just maintain rifle spread as it is in Live, there have never been any number of complaints regarding to the rifle in live... infact if anyone ever has I guarantee it's been a singular vocal minority. We're intently ignoring one of the oldest adages in the book here when it comes to the rifle spread....
"IF IT'S NOT BROKE, DON'T FIX IT"
*edit*
Still in regards LIVE rifle... The fact that more bullets fell within the center of the spread should have been the intended function to begin with not changing it to what it is now to create the uniform "best of luck to you" spread.
From what I understand even the most accurate comp players are barely on 30% accuracy for marines, so this tells me that shots that are barely missing are now potentially hitting by spread and shots that would have hit still hit...it really doesn't seem like a nerf at all except it slightly prevents sniping from great distances and will increase accuracy at close range...sounds strangely familiar, a gun with spread that enables close/medium accurate spray and hampers long range sniping...oh it's the HMG from NS 1 everyone prattles on about.
sounds strangely familiar, a gun with spread that enables close/medium accurate spray and hampers long range sniping...oh it's the HMG from NS 1 everyone prattles on about.
Why drag the HMG into this? To me it sounds exactly like the LMG from NS1.
How about we just maintain rifle spread as it is in Live, there have never been any number of complaints regarding to the rifle in live... infact if anyone ever has I guarantee it's been a singular vocal minority. We're intently ignoring one of the oldest adages in the book here when it comes to the rifle spread....
"IF IT'S NOT BROKE, DON'T FIX IT"
*edit*
Still in regards LIVE rifle... The fact that more bullets fell within the center of the spread should have been the intended function to begin with not changing it to what it is now to create the uniform "best of luck to you" spread.
From what I understand even the most accurate comp players are barely on 30% accuracy for marines, so this tells me that shots that are barely missing are now potentially hitting by spread and shots that would have hit still hit...it really doesn't seem like a nerf at all except it slightly prevents sniping from great distances and will increase accuracy at close range...sounds strangely familiar, a gun with spread that enables close/medium accurate spray and hampers long range sniping...oh it's the HMG from NS 1 everyone prattles on about.
And shots that would have hit, but not center mass, are now potentially missing because of spread.
How about we just maintain rifle spread as it is in Live, there have never been any number of complaints regarding to the rifle in live... infact if anyone ever has I guarantee it's been a singular vocal minority. We're intently ignoring one of the oldest adages in the book here when it comes to the rifle spread....
"IF IT'S NOT BROKE, DON'T FIX IT"
*edit*
Still in regards LIVE rifle... The fact that more bullets fell within the center of the spread should have been the intended function to begin with not changing it to what it is now to create the uniform "best of luck to you" spread.
From what I understand even the most accurate comp players are barely on 30% accuracy for marines, so this tells me that shots that are barely missing are now potentially hitting by spread and shots that would have hit still hit...it really doesn't seem like a nerf at all except it slightly prevents sniping from great distances and will increase accuracy at close range...sounds strangely familiar, a gun with spread that enables close/medium accurate spray and hampers long range sniping...oh it's the HMG from NS 1 everyone prattles on about.
And shots that would have hit, but not center mass, are now potentially missing because of spread.
I suggest playing the mod before throwing out misinformation and speculation.
How about we just maintain rifle spread as it is in Live, there have never been any number of complaints regarding to the rifle in live... infact if anyone ever has I guarantee it's been a singular vocal minority. We're intently ignoring one of the oldest adages in the book here when it comes to the rifle spread....
"IF IT'S NOT BROKE, DON'T FIX IT"
*edit*
Still in regards LIVE rifle... The fact that more bullets fell within the center of the spread should have been the intended function to begin with not changing it to what it is now to create the uniform "best of luck to you" spread.
From what I understand even the most accurate comp players are barely on 30% accuracy for marines, so this tells me that shots that are barely missing are now potentially hitting by spread and shots that would have hit still hit...it really doesn't seem like a nerf at all except it slightly prevents sniping from great distances and will increase accuracy at close range...sounds strangely familiar, a gun with spread that enables close/medium accurate spray and hampers long range sniping...oh it's the HMG from NS 1 everyone prattles on about.
And shots that would have hit, but not center mass, are now potentially missing because of spread.
I suggest playing the mod before throwing out misinformation and speculation.
What misinformation and speculation are you talking about? Increased spread will do what increased spread does. Sometimes it'll make you hit some shots you shouldn't have hit, sometimes it'll make you miss some shots you should have hit. It's random and goes both ways like this. That's what I was trying to point out, as Xao was somewhat ignoring the downside.
And yes, I play've played the bt mod plenty, if you must know.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
edited June 2013
Sooo, I'm loving balance mod scrims, they're awesome. This game is far more fun like this, in my opinion of course.
But mayyybe, just start fades at 100 armor, and 150 for cara. (I don't consider moving the swipe energy cost back a buff at all, it was just over-nerfed. If anything feel free to increase blinks over time cost, it's powerful enough to get fades to 20 without too big an energy hit.) (I say this because regen fades should/could be the way to go with this movement)
Shotguns with their reduced damage and upped speed right now crush skulks as they should be crushed, and fades can play around it. BUT they simply NEED an hp buff because they cannot be aggressive enough as it is.
And please buff fades before we play this tourney.
So how many meters away do you think you should be able to 9 bullet a skulk?
Close to the distance that a 14 speed leaping skulk can achieve - since marines are supposed to have the chance to kill before the mobile team closes the distance gap, being the Ranged team and all.
But that's equally as vague as your question, right?
I think a better question is: why does the shotgun have a center grouping in it's spread but the ranged weapon does not? In other words: Do we want a wide even spread for the LMG?
Because a shotgun is required to be static, if during your round your shotgun just happens to let out a perfect shot at close range, but the next round your opponents shotgun also lands the same shot at close range; except their spread was off those shotgun shots will miss (and that's heavy damage at that point, and close range) - This issue existed in team fortress 2, hence why all shotguns were changed to static never moving shots every time
Compared to the LMG this isn't something that would happen, you won't have those kind of misses at close range, the only time it'd ever even be the slightest of an issue is extremely long distance, which is a range where a skulk cannot attack you and is most likely scouting or fleeing the scene; you also happen to have a pistol which you can swap to very quickly and is accurate at a longer distance. Again after dozens of hours of BT it has never proven to be an issue, ever. Don't forget this issue only applies to skulks, both lerk and fade will take every single shot regardless of range. The twerky viewmodel of lerk at a distance (frantic flapping) is a separate category; but the shots will still hit if you're hitting the hitbox.
I have a hard time called the shotgun spread "static" when its a "fixed pattern that rotates around the center axis", meaning it WILL vary and CAN miss pellets when reproducing the same exact shot, still.
And again i don't consider the length of a typical hallway (like in those shots i posted) as "extremely long distance" and that easily produced a spread that was 3x the vanilla grouping...... and that hallway is not even the length of terminal, cafeteria, or generator?? (and many many other rooms where engagements typically play out)
So again i don't think this is a huge priority.. but i also think many are downplaying the impacts of this change as well.
p.s. purely for test reasons since you quoted me on it, i thought i'd test it out, @ a locked 14 speed i can leap from where i fired rounds (2 stacked boxes) to a meter before where i took the pic (touching the bench).
So yeah, i don't consider a 3x increase in spread over a distance that takes a skulk roughly 1 second to travel as "extremely long distance"
Still find it funny xdragon would think i wouldn't scale them properly :-P
I do not think its the stop speed.
It doesn't happen every single time, and I think its a certain scenario that creates it, that is why i mentioned the "invisible line"
I just asked @sewlek and he is unaware of it, so i will try and capture the repro steps for it to show..
but there is definitely the occasional scenario where any keyboard input is ineffective for an entire second a period of time.. and typically leads to a frustrating death.
edit: may be this, idk, investigating:
function Skulk:GetGroundTransistionTime()
return 0.26
end
Update:
I figured it out!
Don't know where it is in the code to test but i at least figured out what was causing this complete lack of input during combat for me.
Strafe input completely overrides forward input.
So if i am strafing any direction for any amount of time while jumping in combat, i will not move forward an inch.
But if i don't touch a strafe key i can zig and zag all day long and close that gap on that jumping marine.
Feels so much better now that i figured it out... but wow that isn't a) noticeable or intuitive one bit (circle strafing is almost universal in fps) b) shouldn't forward override strafing, or at least to some degree?
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited June 2013
Have we given up on breaking up pres among alien players at this point? Abrupt fade balls for life. Fade balls should be a valid strategy, but it should come at the expense of not having a single (or maybe two) early pressure fades and at a significant time expense due to pres sinks. I want the alien lifeforms to come out in a more gradual manner, instead of the entire game completely shifting in the span of about 30 seconds as 4 fades evolve.
And I'll just echo what I said 10 pages ago. Drifter requirements for building at a normal rate does not, at all, slow down sudden alien expansion or emphasize any player presence requirement.
Tres drops are broken, and always will be broken. If they're not removed, maybe add a scale to the drops so a 3rd fade drop costs more than the first one.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Skulk movement was updated today!
I suggest everyone try it, personally i am in love with it as it fixed my one complaint with it. (strafe input over riding forward input)
Incredibly easy to use but powerful, still.
I think this is the best iteration thus far, easy for a n00b to step into /good transition from vanilla / keeps skill ceiling intact.
I feel that too much of the speed comes from strafejumping now as opposed to walljumping, or maybe it's that you lose too much speed when you turn without strafing. Bhopping and bouncing off walls while just holding forward is completely useless now, which is bad for accessibility. Using the strafe keys should confer a small advantage for added depth, but not be completely mandatory to gain speed.
I use strafe keys when I want to curve in air without using my mouse to follow the curve
I use only w when I want to curve in air while following curve with mouse
Using A + D is depth? I like how it is atm... I use strafe in x situations and I use only W in other situations.
Not really, it adds a bit of skill but really it's just an obscure barrier to entry. Thus the problem. BT Bunnyhopping is pretty intuitive until you introduce A+D. When that's also a requirement, it becomes twice as hard to explain to people how it works, for little benefit.
Is it really that unintuitive though? You want to go left, hold strafe left, you want to go right, hold right strafe. I often do that even with the old movement code. What most people I've talked to find unintuitive about bunnyhopping is that you need to let go of the forward key, and that's not an issue issue in the current implementation.
Is it really that unintuitive though? You want to go left, hold strafe left, you want to go right, hold right strafe. I often do that even with the old movement code. What most people I've talked to find unintuitive about bunnyhopping is that you need to let go of the forward key, and that's not an issue issue in the current implementation.
Of course it's unintuitive - if you want to go left, you move the mouse left, and hey look it worked! Why would anyone without prior bunnyhopping experience think to also hold strafe? There isn't even any perceptible difference when you do that, just a subtle difference in speed building that adds up over time.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2013
Building air speed by strafing with "A & D" keys seem like deliberately reintroducing a bug for nostalgia's sake to me.
I can see players with excellent keyboard dexterity may want such a mechanism to extend their advantage. However, that comes at a detriment to those who are less gifted, who would be frustrated as they struggle to perform a basic movement to play competently.
Intuitively, a simpler rule of "jump to increase air speed" would work better to encourage players to discover the mechanism of chained jumps. Strafing and (gradual) turning should accomplish only the intended simple movement, rather than magically provide speed gains.
Is it really that unintuitive though? You want to go left, hold strafe left, you want to go right, hold right strafe. I often do that even with the old movement code. What most people I've talked to find unintuitive about bunnyhopping is that you need to let go of the forward key, and that's not an issue issue in the current implementation.
As someone who has never played a game with bunnyhopping and didn't even know what it was until it was brought up on these forums and I did some research, it is EXTREMELY unintuitive for me to use the strafe keys when turning. If I want to turn, I move the mouse (which turns me from side to side). If I want to strafe, I use the strafe keys (which move me side to side). Without the research into bunnyhopping and watching videos, I would never have thought to put the two together.
Comments
Saying things like this to people, even when it's 100% accurate really isn't appropriate for the forums. Doesn't help the conversation.
If the Fade is going to be relegated to being a 1v1 Marine killer, then it should have its cost reduced to 30 pRes as it simply isn't worth the 50 pRes in its current state.
A single fade should never have felt comfortable diving into a group of 3 shotguns. I believe this was a flaw of the old movement, particularly shadowstep.
It's really funny though.
The current Fade can't take on 2 shotguns, even though they cost less than the Fade.
"IF IT'S NOT BROKE, DON'T FIX IT"
*edit*
Still in regards LIVE rifle... The fact that more bullets fell within the center of the spread should have been the intended function to begin with not changing it to what it is now to create the uniform "best of luck to you" spread.
I agree with this... however it would be great if pistol did normal damage instead of light. When skulks go cara, it just plain sucks using pistol.
HAHAhAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, I dribbled a little, even better than your refinery fix m8, 6/10 post.
From what I understand even the most accurate comp players are barely on 30% accuracy for marines, so this tells me that shots that are barely missing are now potentially hitting by spread and shots that would have hit still hit...it really doesn't seem like a nerf at all except it slightly prevents sniping from great distances and will increase accuracy at close range...sounds strangely familiar, a gun with spread that enables close/medium accurate spray and hampers long range sniping...oh it's the HMG from NS 1 everyone prattles on about.
And shots that would have hit, but not center mass, are now potentially missing because of spread.
What misinformation and speculation are you talking about? Increased spread will do what increased spread does. Sometimes it'll make you hit some shots you shouldn't have hit, sometimes it'll make you miss some shots you should have hit. It's random and goes both ways like this. That's what I was trying to point out, as Xao was somewhat ignoring the downside.
And yes, I play've played the bt mod plenty, if you must know.
But mayyybe, just start fades at 100 armor, and 150 for cara. (I don't consider moving the swipe energy cost back a buff at all, it was just over-nerfed. If anything feel free to increase blinks over time cost, it's powerful enough to get fades to 20 without too big an energy hit.) (I say this because regen fades should/could be the way to go with this movement)
Shotguns with their reduced damage and upped speed right now crush skulks as they should be crushed, and fades can play around it. BUT they simply NEED an hp buff because they cannot be aggressive enough as it is.
And please buff fades before we play this tourney.
This is currently my biggest annoyance with the mod.
Because a shotgun is required to be static, if during your round your shotgun just happens to let out a perfect shot at close range, but the next round your opponents shotgun also lands the same shot at close range; except their spread was off those shotgun shots will miss (and that's heavy damage at that point, and close range) - This issue existed in team fortress 2, hence why all shotguns were changed to static never moving shots every time
Compared to the LMG this isn't something that would happen, you won't have those kind of misses at close range, the only time it'd ever even be the slightest of an issue is extremely long distance, which is a range where a skulk cannot attack you and is most likely scouting or fleeing the scene; you also happen to have a pistol which you can swap to very quickly and is accurate at a longer distance. Again after dozens of hours of BT it has never proven to be an issue, ever. Don't forget this issue only applies to skulks, both lerk and fade will take every single shot regardless of range. The twerky viewmodel of lerk at a distance (frantic flapping) is a separate category; but the shots will still hit if you're hitting the hitbox.
I have a hard time called the shotgun spread "static" when its a "fixed pattern that rotates around the center axis", meaning it WILL vary and CAN miss pellets when reproducing the same exact shot, still.
And again i don't consider the length of a typical hallway (like in those shots i posted) as "extremely long distance" and that easily produced a spread that was 3x the vanilla grouping...... and that hallway is not even the length of terminal, cafeteria, or generator?? (and many many other rooms where engagements typically play out)
So again i don't think this is a huge priority.. but i also think many are downplaying the impacts of this change as well.
p.s. purely for test reasons since you quoted me on it, i thought i'd test it out, @ a locked 14 speed i can leap from where i fired rounds (2 stacked boxes) to a meter before where i took the pic (touching the bench).
So yeah, i don't consider a 3x increase in spread over a distance that takes a skulk roughly 1 second to travel as "extremely long distance"
Still find it funny xdragon would think i wouldn't scale them properly :-P
I figured it out!
Don't know where it is in the code to test but i at least figured out what was causing this complete lack of input during combat for me.
Strafe input completely overrides forward input.
So if i am strafing any direction for any amount of time while jumping in combat, i will not move forward an inch.
But if i don't touch a strafe key i can zig and zag all day long and close that gap on that jumping marine.
Feels so much better now that i figured it out... but wow that isn't a) noticeable or intuitive one bit (circle strafing is almost universal in fps) b) shouldn't forward override strafing, or at least to some degree?
/N00b meets world
And I'll just echo what I said 10 pages ago. Drifter requirements for building at a normal rate does not, at all, slow down sudden alien expansion or emphasize any player presence requirement.
Tres drops are broken, and always will be broken. If they're not removed, maybe add a scale to the drops so a 3rd fade drop costs more than the first one.
I suggest everyone try it, personally i am in love with it as it fixed my one complaint with it. (strafe input over riding forward input)
Incredibly easy to use but powerful, still.
I think this is the best iteration thus far, easy for a n00b to step into /good transition from vanilla / keeps skill ceiling intact.
Thoughts?
@Ironhorse
Strafe air control feels same to me (which is a good thing), so not sure what you mean...
I use strafe keys when I want to curve in air without using my mouse to follow the curve
I use only w when I want to curve in air while following curve with mouse
Not really, it adds a bit of skill but really it's just an obscure barrier to entry. Thus the problem. BT Bunnyhopping is pretty intuitive until you introduce A+D. When that's also a requirement, it becomes twice as hard to explain to people how it works, for little benefit.
Of course it's unintuitive - if you want to go left, you move the mouse left, and hey look it worked! Why would anyone without prior bunnyhopping experience think to also hold strafe? There isn't even any perceptible difference when you do that, just a subtle difference in speed building that adds up over time.
I can see players with excellent keyboard dexterity may want such a mechanism to extend their advantage. However, that comes at a detriment to those who are less gifted, who would be frustrated as they struggle to perform a basic movement to play competently.
Intuitively, a simpler rule of "jump to increase air speed" would work better to encourage players to discover the mechanism of chained jumps. Strafing and (gradual) turning should accomplish only the intended simple movement, rather than magically provide speed gains.
As someone who has never played a game with bunnyhopping and didn't even know what it was until it was brought up on these forums and I did some research, it is EXTREMELY unintuitive for me to use the strafe keys when turning. If I want to turn, I move the mouse (which turns me from side to side). If I want to strafe, I use the strafe keys (which move me side to side). Without the research into bunnyhopping and watching videos, I would never have thought to put the two together.