Can you name a single game in the past 15 years that's still played where the developers placed the desires of the small vocal competitive players over everyone else?
CS, Quake, Dota, Starcraft
Need to call you out on this one
Counter-strike? Nope.. view any competitive cs forum and you'll see how hard we're shitting all over valve for not listening to anybody. For fucks sake we were outrageous happy just a few days ago when they added their FIRST static crosshair. Yeah that's right a static crosshair, there was even a freaking thread on it. That's how much valve ignores the cs community
Quake? What version are you on about? Quake Live? Yeah you're pretty much handicapped now unless you're a premium sub, and it took them years to nerf the railgun when the obvious thing to do is to remove it
Dota 2? Somewhat, take note that valve has the original dota devs onboard (like they do with most games) they aren't doing much developing/ just supplying $ and publishing
starcraft, never played so no comment
I'll help you with Starcraft.
Starcraft has pretty much always been designed around what the majority of the player-base thinks. While the game is usually balanced from the top down (with number tweaks mostly), Blizzard has changed many things for the mid-level player and even team games (Starcraft is only an esport for 1v1).
The thing about any successful game, but especially successful esports games, is that you balance from the top down so that, no matter the obstacle, getting better at the game through practice will get you past it. However, the other side of the coin has long since shown that while you may need to balance from the top down, you need to design the game from the bottom up. You start by making something that is easy to learn and so it draws in new players. You then add depth and difficulty through more skillful mechanics and stratagems to encourage players to stay with the game and play more in order to get better and more effectively do certain things.
As people get better at the game, you need to reward them for their efforts. As people get better, they need to feel like they are getting better; their improvements need to transfer to the game so that they, for example, get more kills, win fights they wouldn't have previously, or get a higher score. Rewards can also be in the form of player badges, new skins, or achievements.
At the top, people need something that really tests their mettle with challenging, yet rewarding, mechanics that allows them to show their full potential and prove that they are the best (or close to it). At the top, the game also needs to be balanced so that one or two things don't dominate as that gets boring for players (and viewers).
Unfortunately, it feels like the BT mod is trying to design the game from the top down. It introduces changes that drastically raise the skill floor, making it harder for newer players to pick up the game, while it tries to raise the skill ceiling. It also takes away fun, rewarding mechanics in order to raise the skill ceiling even more and appease the best players.
In the end, the current BT mod is nothing but bad for this game, as is shown by the large amount of players against it. The inclusion of the BT mod into the current game will only speed up the decline of the game we all love: Natural Selection 2.
Well my props go out to Sewlek for trying to add some spunk (really S P U N K is censored) into this poorly coded game.
The main reason that people have only sampled the game and not continued playing is due to the performance since release. I like to correlate the game play to a single player game where you need to kill a monster and it just wont die. You keep shooting, hacking, kicking, and punching it doing every thing in your kit to kill it then finally it ends up killing you.
This is what it feels like for the average player out there when they play NS2 on either marine or alien side. First with the hit registration problem then and still the poor server performance, jump/sudden drops in frame rates. It simply makes for a very frustrating game to play for anyone with an average rig.
Now, in regards to competitive scene vs public please stop referring to it like that. Call it what it is high player count and low player count games. There is not good players in this game only good hardware.
Something I have never understood about skulk movement, it already has a special movement in its kit its called leap. Just needs to be a starting ability that improves with upgrading VIA biomass. Biomass can allow more leaps, farther leaps, deal damage with leap.
BHOP from the first NS was a joke no one actually performed the finger agility they ended up macroing it. So please do not even consider adding this back in. Running on walls (wall jumping) is a very tough mechanic to get down, UWE has tried many iterations none of which have stuck as a good mechanic. It seems to always give the skulk to much of an unfair advantage. That's why I still believe just use what is already in the skulks kit (LEAP).
Another area that should be looked at is individual upgrades( carapace, adrenaline, cloaking, ex..). Why does every upgrade have to do the exact same thing to every life form?
Unfortunately, it feels like the BT mod is trying to design the game from the top down. It introduces changes that drastically raise the skill floor, making it harder for newer players to pick up the game, while it tries to raise the skill ceiling. It also takes away fun, rewarding mechanics in order to raise the skill ceiling even more and appease the best players.
What specific parts of the bt do you think are making it harder for newer players to pick up the game? Feedback!
As far as i can tell, Sewlek has always given serious thought to accessibility in designing the bt.
I like your avatar.
The thing that draws me away from the game is the major CPU hit the game takes, I'm not someone who wants to run out and invest a few hundred for an i5/7 CPU, I'm running an AMD Phenom II x4 820 2.8ghz with a GTX 560 and max out most games, excluding this one. It's always bugged me, while the game may be really nice looking, it's still pretty clear that even a budget or mid range GPU should be able to push more than what the game is tossing on the table.
When I join a game, I have my good and bad days with performance, sometimes I will have great performance all the way through the round, other times, I will be running as a skulk getting half to 2 second lag spikes at random times when running around as my CPU stresses with the game. I'll be turning around a corner, lag spike, find out that I've blown up by a shotgun, or the marine variant, nommed by a skulk. (Infact, I have a hard time playing as a marine, shooting fades with low performance is a pain in the ass.) This makes me immediately want to leave the game, and typically I do.
The references to NS1 I would honestly say are completely false, it's an old mod that a majority of casual players likely have never heard about, they do not care if NS2 is anything like NS2, people play CoD: Black OPS/BOII without playing Call of Duty 4, they do not case how CoD4 was, their mind is set on BOII and what is to be made ahead of that. When you're tossing the game on sale like the March sale, it's going to be drawing in new casual players, and they do not want to play a poorly performing game where they get egg locked/IP rushed by competitive players.
To get the casual market, first impressions are everything, things like rushing needs to be resolved, performance should even greater be resolved, the learning curve is really not as steep as some would say, when I did join up in March, the video tutorials that would pop up on my screen were enough to help me learn, with assistance of good commanders who direct me on what to do and where to go. The only weight on my shoulders at that point is to learn to point my gun, at the right place at the right time to ensure I can continue pushing forward.
Performance, egg locking/IP rushes, should definitely be up there as things that need fixed. (I've tested the new beta update, it runs great, far less stress on my CPU's end, now I just wish it would be released sooner, anything else planned at a later time.)
When it comes to features, there may be more or less than NS1, but is this really something to complain about? There's Steam Workshop, a large open platform full of mods to allow you to customize your game the way you want to play. I'm running a new cross hair mod with hit markers that makes things like playing as a skulk significantly more easier for me. (Also cuter gorge eyes and starcraft creep/alien rework, irrelevant.) On the devs end, why not contact good quality mod makers in steam workshop for permission to use their content, this would allow for much faster feature release, as many of the planned features are likely already made, some who would be gladly willing to offer their content to the developers of the game.
The game may need rebalances and fixes in some areas of the map, but I would say performance and making the game more appealing to casual gamers should be top priority. New features and map releases should be following close behind it, maybe in a different patch.
That's my two cents anyways, and to toss this out there, there's plenty of details of upcoming releases, I see nowhere any lack of detail of what's coming up.
[Edit]
I'd just like to toss into my rant about rushing, I've been in servers that would stack up teams just to egg lock even up to 5 games in a row, it kills the game for me, and I'm sure plenty would agree, a spawn protection should be added in for the first 3-5 minutes of the game. (IE, eggs are invincible, skulks have carapace or invincibility for 3 seconds after hatching, vice versa for marines.)
I don't understand this perpetual school of thought that this game is ns1 with better graphics.
NS2 is a different game. It has some features which are more enjoyable than ns1 and some which are less so. They're different games, they're going to have different features...
Why even call it ns2 then?
Why not something different then, seeing as its "not" ns1 on better graphics
I don't understand this perpetual school of thought that this game is ns1 with better graphics.
NS2 is a different game. It has some features which are more enjoyable than ns1 and some which are less so. They're different games, they're going to have different features...
Why even call it ns2 then?
Why not something different then, seeing as its "not" ns1 on better graphics
NS1 is NS1, if players want NS1, it's a free mod and they can easily go back and do so. NS2 is a new game revisioned from the previous title following up a similar gametype, is it not supposed to have new features and fancier graphics?
I'm all for the changes in the BT mod, but movement based button mashing is a big no no. Not that I dislike the idea of it, but that the game is already so complex that I think it will not attract as many people.
Some people on here talk about dumbing down, but UWE is a business and there has to be compromise.
Personally I think performance is the elephant in the room, but also the complexity of balancing and the current linear gameplay. Both teams have seemingly very linear paths. I think this could be solved in the way that the BT mod is addressing this with the alien side, by having multiple structures that scale the upgrades.
Perhaps armour/weap upgrades in themselves are too generic. What about seeing increased flamer range and burn time, and perhaps alternatives for the shotgun and other weapons that mean bigger commitments, but also potentially bigger rewards?
Now, in regards to competitive scene vs public please stop referring to it like that. Call it what it is high player count and low player count games. There is not good players in this game only good hardware.
Sorry, that is complete BS. Does performance make a difference, absolutely. Is the only difference between players currently down to their hardware? Absolutely not.
Something I have never understood about skulk movement, it already has a special movement in its kit its called leap. Just needs to be a starting ability that improves with upgrading VIA biomass. Biomass can allow more leaps, farther leaps, deal damage with leap.
Despite your ridiculous previous statement, I did read on... This is actually quite a good point - I like the idea of upgradeable abilities, though not as a replacement for a skill-based movement system. I should clarify that I don't think bunnyhop is the right thing to do here, but I have posted extensively elsewhere my thoughts on this (but I remain fully supportive of implementing a skill-based movement system).
Can you name a single game in the past 15 years that's still played where the developers placed the desires of the small vocal competitive players over everyone else?
CS, Quake, Dota, Starcraft
Need to call you out on this one
Counter-strike? Nope.. view any competitive cs forum and you'll see how hard we're shitting all over valve for not listening to anybody. For fucks sake we were outrageous happy just a few days ago when they added their FIRST static crosshair. Yeah that's right a static crosshair, there was even a freaking thread on it. That's how much valve ignores the cs community
Quake? What version are you on about? Quake Live? Yeah you're pretty much handicapped now unless you're a premium sub, and it took them years to nerf the railgun when the obvious thing to do is to remove it
Dota 2? Somewhat, take note that valve has the original dota devs onboard (like they do with most games) they aren't doing much developing/ just supplying $ and publishing
starcraft, never played so no comment
I'll help you with Starcraft.
Starcraft has pretty much always been designed around what the majority of the player-base thinks. While the game is usually balanced from the top down (with number tweaks mostly), Blizzard has changed many things for the mid-level player and even team games (Starcraft is only an esport for 1v1).
The thing about any successful game, but especially successful esports games, is that you balance from the top down so that, no matter the obstacle, getting better at the game through practice will get you past it. However, the other side of the coin has long since shown that while you may need to balance from the top down, you need to design the game from the bottom up. You start by making something that is easy to learn and so it draws in new players. You then add depth and difficulty through more skillful mechanics and stratagems to encourage players to stay with the game and play more in order to get better and more effectively do certain things.
As people get better at the game, you need to reward them for their efforts. As people get better, they need to feel like they are getting better; their improvements need to transfer to the game so that they, for example, get more kills, win fights they wouldn't have previously, or get a higher score. Rewards can also be in the form of player badges, new skins, or achievements.
At the top, people need something that really tests their mettle with challenging, yet rewarding, mechanics that allows them to show their full potential and prove that they are the best (or close to it). At the top, the game also needs to be balanced so that one or two things don't dominate as that gets boring for players (and viewers).
Unfortunately, it feels like the BT mod is trying to design the game from the top down. It introduces changes that drastically raise the skill floor, making it harder for newer players to pick up the game, while it tries to raise the skill ceiling. It also takes away fun, rewarding mechanics in order to raise the skill ceiling even more and appease the best players.
In the end, the current BT mod is nothing but bad for this game, as is shown by the large amount of players against it. The inclusion of the BT mod into the current game will only speed up the decline of the game we all love: Natural Selection 2.
Could you elaborate a bit more on this please? What implementations do you feel raise the skill floor and take away fun, rewarding mechanics?
Because I don't see how the skill floor is being raised drastically, if it's being raised at all. Skulks still rely on walljumping for speed gains and shouldn't be any harder to pick up than the vanilla skulk. Glancing bites are out, yes, but the 75dmg cone is also wider which could arguably prove to be a buff for newbies overall. The fade has gotten blink as his first ability, and the blink+jump combo makes it more easy to move around the map for new players. It's something you can pick up pretty much instantly and be adequate at, in contrary to the ss+dj.
As for marines, the skill floor is still pretty much thesame.
I'm on board with the idea of leap, it's my favorite upgrade, when used with additional energy you can use it to hop around marines quickly and disorientate them similar to how a fade does, it really does make a difference.
In response to Runteh, flame throwers are incredibly underrated, when you have 3 people covering you, you can clear a room of all it's structures pretty quickly with it (healing stations), and it does wonders with pesky lurks, I would actually disagree with both range and burn time however, but instead more spread.
I think a great way to nerf fades down without killing anyone's baby is honestly not to do anything with their movement, upgrades, mechanics, but instead make them a bit more visible while moving, a shotgun can bring them down pretty quickly provided you can hit them.
I don't think NS2 has enough players or time to properly balance it, any sort of rebalance is just going to move the problems around.
I'd have to agree but the topic of balance doesn't look like it's going to die down, something's going to end up changing for the worse or better. I'd see performance and bug fixing more important, before this becomes a Battlefield 3 situation - "rebalancing the game to death."
Both aliens and marines can rape each other provided strategy is in play, it's better to instead focus on the real problems in the game, not just about what people complain about because they're dying too frequently.
With balancing mods like this you end up with people hating the mod and giving up, and others convincing themselves it's for the better. It's not going to be drawing any new players in.
i thought the BF3 approach was pretty good, tweaking of lots of little stats, and altering specific mechanics where there were issues. even then there was a shitstorm though...
That's basically my point, even if changes are made for the better, it will still piss people off and they will force themselves to leave over it, even out of pure ignorance. I'm all for the BT mod, but it should be taken a bit more slowly when implemented in updates, instead of being all one big package or else it will be taken harshly by existing members.
The BF3 approach was decent, but people quickly noticed that they were making weapon characteristics inaccurate and overdoing some of their favorite guns in big packaged updates, people did not take a big liking to that. Instead of addressing issues like Rush game type playing the losing music when you win a round, that took over a year for them to finally fix, they spent more time listening to complainers moan about how "OP" the AEK was in close quarter situations, even now the game still has many map glitches and animation bugs.
Just to toss out there, I know I'm referencing performance and fixes a lot, and I do know that the BT project is being lead by a single dev while more important issues are being addressed. But I speak for myself when I say I'd like if these fixes and the major 249 performance fix were released now and rebalancing/new maps be released at a later time.
The rebalancing and new content could even be saved for a big "Version 250 update," that could be attention grabbing for newer players, along side a summer steam sale.
I see no big issues with NS2 right now, it's really fun and addictive and I had no trouble picking it up, but that's just me, aside from the performance problems, it's a really solid and fluid moving game, in terms of balance, I'm a pub player just here to have fun, when I have a good interactive team that's not interested in immediately rushing IP's and eggs, it's typically a good game, the team with the best strategy wins.
I see no big issues with NS2 right now, it's really fun and addictive and I had no trouble picking it up, but that's just me, aside from the performance problems, it's a really solid and fluid moving game, in terms of balance, I'm a pub player just here to have fun, when I have a good interactive team that's not interested in immediately rushing IP's and eggs, it's typically a good game, the team with the best strategy wins.
I'm mainly a pub player, though I've dabbled with clan play a little and play gathers where possible. I would say that the main problems so far for NS2 are: performance (yay for b249...!), team stacking (fingers crossed for sabot...), and the lack of depth of usable tactics. By this I mean that certain upgrades are great, while others are not worthwhile, so gameplay can stagnate. It's not a case of working out what upgrades the other team has and adapting your strategy accordingly, it's a matter of going for cara first to hold off for the fade explosion, or the equivalent marine tactic (usually upgrades first, phase early on some maps and not on others). The BT mod is having a crack at addressing this, with some good results amongst a few others perhaps less so.
Changes are needed, but reassuringly I would say that changes are afoot. As with any type of change implementation, management of that change is absolutely crucial for success.
I would agree that more effective tactics are definitely necessary, but it's a case of the ignorant users willing to accept this with a good taste, these are game changing updates ahead, even though they are being tested thoroughly to be a well built update, a lot of the major changes should be pieced out a bit, while minor changes such as damage/speed modifications and other slight changes (that have significant impact, don't get me wrong) could be released in a bigger update.
A lot of people haven't read up on BT, a lot haven't taken the time to test BT, a lot haven't tested it enough, and then there's the few who aren't willing to test it because they fear change. If's it's distributed in future updates piece by piece, the existing players who haven't given BT a shot will be more accepting of it, and if they feel a feature is misplaced to the extent that they have the need to post about it, let them have at it and explain their feedback. This of course doesn't discourage the work being done right now, testing it is a great thing, most game developers would just throw it together and force it on everyone with a large change log explaining whose baby they killed.
Team stacking I feel is inevitable, just can't stop that, random teams does really the best job it can to do so, but it's what it is, random.
Unfortunately, it feels like the BT mod is trying to design the game from the top down. It introduces changes that drastically raise the skill floor, making it harder for newer players to pick up the game, while it tries to raise the skill ceiling. It also takes away fun, rewarding mechanics in order to raise the skill ceiling even more and appease the best players.
What specific parts of the bt do you think are making it harder for newer players to pick up the game? Feedback!
As far as i can tell, Sewlek has always given serious thought to accessibility in designing the bt.
I've given all the feedback I can in the BT mod thread.
Unfortunately most of the posts in this thread about movement are completely incorrect. Bunnyhopping is currently offers the most insignificant gains in the balance mod, and only exists as a mechanic to allow a flexible speed cap. You can currently just using walljump and your 'W' key (read: not using A or D or any mouse movements), get within .2m/s of someone who is using almost every trick to gain more speed. The walljumping mechanic has been changed to be more about glancing walls as you move versus faceplanting into them, but after you learn that change, there is absolutely 0 additional skill or mechanical requirements to be effective as skulk. Quite honestly, this walljump is much more useful than live as a single walljump can take you to about 10 speed, from the base of 7. For everyone calling the current movement for any class bunnyhopping, i'm sorry but your just plain incorrect. I understand that most people do not understand the technical aspects of movements beyond the visual appearance (aka a skulk jumping along the floor quickly = bunnyhopping), but its important that the distinction be made so that - A: people do not get confused and attempt to over complicate their movement, only to get confused at the results; and B: that people do not get put off by mechanics they think are being implemented which they think will be required to learn to be competitive, which is not required at all.
I hope for anyone that decides to make a movement tutorial, that they please actually put the time in to learn the mechanics correctly, and accurately describe them. If you sell this movement to someone as solely based on bunnyhopping, you will misleading people, and creating a lot of confusion. I have seen so much mis-information in all of these threads that I really question how people are explaining the basics, and from what I have seen on these SOTG streams they also have almost no understanding of the mechanics.
Unfortunately most of the posts in this thread about movement are completely incorrect. Bunnyhopping is currently offers the most insignificant gains in the balance mod, and only exists as a mechanic to allow a flexible speed cap. You can currently just using walljump and your 'W' key (read: not using A or D or any mouse movements), get within .2m/s of someone who is using almost every trick to gain more speed. The walljumping mechanic has been changed to be more about glancing walls as you move versus faceplanting into them, but after you learn that change, there is absolutely 0 additional skill or mechanical requirements to be effective as skulk. Quite honestly, this walljump is much more useful than live as a single walljump can take you to about 10 speed, from the base of 7. For everyone calling the current movement for any class bunnyhopping, i'm sorry but your just plain incorrect. I understand that most people do not understand the technical aspects of movements beyond the visual appearance (aka a skulk jumping along the floor quickly = bunnyhopping), but its important that the distinction be made so that - A: people do not get confused and attempt to over complicate their movement, only to get confused at the results; and B: that people do not get put off by mechanics they think are being implemented which they will be required to learn to be competitive, which is not required at all.
I hope for anyone that decides to make a movement tutorial, that they please actually put the time in to learn the mechanics correctly, and accurately describe them. If you sell this movement to someone as solely based on bunnyhopping, you will misleading people, and creating a lot of confusion. I have seen so much mis-information in all of these threads that I really question how people are explaining the basics, and from what I have seen on these SOTG streams they also have almost no understanding of the mechanics.
The pseudo-bunnyhop doesn't even matter to me, personally. I just can't stand the "ice skates" feeling that skulks have now. Try explaining to someone that an alien creature that can walk, and even run, on the ceiling will skate across the floor as if he suddenly has socks on a hardwood floor. Combine that with the recent change to remove gravitational acceleration, and the skulk just isn't fun or intuitive.
Skulks still have failling acceleration if thats what your referring to, every alien does at this point IIRC. As for the 'ice skates' feeling, I am not exactly sure what you mean by that? Are you referring to the fact that you actually have some momentum to your movement now, and cannot change directions instantly? If you can elaborate on that 'feeling', perhaps it can be improved.
BHOP from the first NS was a joke no one actually performed the finger agility they ended up macroing it. So please do not even consider adding this back in. Running on walls (wall jumping) is a very tough mechanic to get down, UWE has tried many iterations none of which have stuck as a good mechanic. It seems to always give the skulk to much of an unfair advantage. That's why I still believe just use what is already in the skulks kit (LEAP).
The only "macro" used was the so called "3 jump" in mouse wheel. Any player that did more than that was an easy target. Played clan on NS1, trust me. Bhop was a huge asset to it. And yes we were able to play close to any chamber (upgrade) first.
I don't think NS2 has enough players or time to properly balance it, any sort of rebalance is just going to move the problems around.
Right!, the main problem isn't balance. Plus it can be modified promptly (all build have a balance change in that regard). Any match with proper clans i watched is barely getting out of the carapace tactic or the "all-in & GG" (shotgun for marines / Camouflage for alien). The technical problems have an influence somehow.
That's basically my point, even if changes are made for the better, it will still piss people off and they will force themselves to leave over it, even out of pure ignorance. I'm all for the BT mod, but it should be taken a bit more slowly when implemented in updates, instead of being all one big package or else it will be taken harshly by existing members.
The BF3 approach was decent, but people quickly noticed that they were making weapon characteristics inaccurate and overdoing some of their favorite guns in big packaged updates, people did not take a big liking to that. Instead of addressing issues like Rush game type playing the losing music when you win a round, that took over a year for them to finally fix, they spent more time listening to complainers moan about how "OP" the AEK was in close quarter situations, even now the game still has many map glitches and animation bugs.
Just to toss out there, I know I'm referencing performance and fixes a lot, and I do know that the BT project is being lead by a single dev while more important issues are being addressed. But I speak for myself when I say I'd like if these fixes and the major 249 performance fix were released now and rebalancing/new maps be released at a later time.
The rebalancing and new content could even be saved for a big "Version 250 update," that could be attention grabbing for newer players, along side a summer steam sale.
I see no big issues with NS2 right now, it's really fun and addictive and I had no trouble picking it up, but that's just me, aside from the performance problems, it's a really solid and fluid moving game, in terms of balance, I'm a pub player just here to have fun, when I have a good interactive team that's not interested in immediately rushing IP's and eggs, it's typically a good game, the team with the best strategy wins.
On pub, take 3 marines that can shoot properly and no alien can stand a chance except if they have the same experience (level). It is usually 50% chance for a good start like that. Otherwise, one hammer the other during all game. Seen that many times. This skulk is a brick. It isn't "natural" to play with for many reasons. 2 of the most annoying for me is the "forbidden mouse-wheel jump" and the skulk FOV (wider angle) that is making ppl think it is faster. But it is just an illusion. This is adding to the lag problem and in a 1 on 1 fight you often see the two enemies turning around chasing each other. Dev tried to hide perf/lag problem with a FOV trick, which just make it worse.
Unfortunately most of the posts in this thread about movement are completely incorrect. Bunnyhopping is currently offers the most insignificant gains in the balance mod, and only exists as a mechanic to allow a flexible speed cap. You can currently just using walljump and your 'W' key (read: not using A or D or any mouse movements), get within .2m/s of someone who is using almost every trick to gain more speed. The walljumping mechanic has been changed to be more about glancing walls as you move versus faceplanting into them, but after you learn that change, there is absolutely 0 additional skill or mechanical requirements to be effective as skulk. Quite honestly, this walljump is much more useful than live as a single walljump can take you to about 10 speed, from the base of 7. For everyone calling the current movement for any class bunnyhopping, i'm sorry but your just plain incorrect. I understand that most people do not understand the technical aspects of movements beyond the visual appearance (aka a skulk jumping along the floor quickly = bunnyhopping), but its important that the distinction be made so that - A: people do not get confused and attempt to over complicate their movement, only to get confused at the results; and B: that people do not get put off by mechanics they think are being implemented which they will be required to learn to be competitive, which is not required at all.
I hope for anyone that decides to make a movement tutorial, that they please actually put the time in to learn the mechanics correctly, and accurately describe them. If you sell this movement to someone as solely based on bunnyhopping, you will misleading people, and creating a lot of confusion. I have seen so much mis-information in all of these threads that I really question how people are explaining the basics, and from what I have seen on these SOTG streams they also have almost no understanding of the mechanics.
The pseudo-bunnyhop doesn't even matter to me, personally. I just can't stand the "ice skates" feeling that skulks have now. Try explaining to someone that an alien creature that can walk, and even run, on the ceiling will skate across the floor as if he suddenly has socks on a hardwood floor. Combine that with the recent change to remove gravitational acceleration, and the skulk just isn't fun or intuitive.
I could achieve a top speed of 14 with less than 2 hours of training. Default is 7. Average i did on BT was 12~13. Not that bad considering tactics. A skulk that can "rendez-vous" faster at some position is better than nothing which is the default NS2 standard. Of course you have to train and forge some "route with checkpoints" on each map. But it makes the difference.
Wall jump... I know some players that can make you leave wall jump were it should be. With some marine you won't even get close to any wall. Proper skulk player hide, preferably ambushing with others, and if lucky (or good start); a drifter is near to help pin pointing the targets. You leave no extra distance between you and the shooter before you attack. You get closer as much as possible. Wall jump has become a "in case of fail" thing. 10% boost even 20% isn't really useful at that point. Claners have no FPS drops. If you fail to hit, don't count too much on wall jump. You will be disappointed. The key sequence and mouse gesture to use wall jump properly is far more complicated than Bunny hopping (no macro included).
The only thing that save a skulk is the performance issue. Performance issue on which relies wall jump. It is common to see a skulk teleporting to the ground (using wall jump). But when you know what's gonna happen.... lower the gun... shoot... tadah.
Perhaps armour/weap upgrades in themselves are too generic. What about seeing increased flamer range and burn time, and perhaps alternatives for the shotgun and other weapons that mean bigger commitments, but also potentially bigger rewards?
Some ideas for upgrades:
1. bullets go through aliens and/or thin walls
2. "smart" reload system (similar to gears of war)
3. increased knockback on rifle butts and/or bullets
4. decreased spread on rifle/shotty, increased projectile speed on GL/FT
OR
Keep the current weapon upgrade system, but dont just increase damage for every level. give weapons different attributes as the game progresses. For example, as you upgrade weapons, the rifle gains more piercing ability, the shotgun decreases spread, the FT gets a smart reload system, etc.
Im not sure what to do about armor upgrades. Weapons would need to be somehow rebalanced to account for no changes in damage as the game progresses.
Some ideas for weapons:
-Remove the current GL, add a new single shot "Thumper" type GL that explodes on contact with surfaces. You give up some degree of base rape, but gain a viable weapon that is different from the shotgun.
-Make flamethrowers the comprehensive base destruction tool.
-Remove dual minigun exos, add minigun + 4-clip Grenade launcher
-add "Heavy armor". Has an energy bar similar to Jetpacks. When turned on:
1. the bar slowly drains
2. all damage is absorbed by the shield (damage takes points off the energy bar instead of your hp)
3. movement speed increased
The bar refills when turned off. A skilled marine could toggle the shield on and off to make the most of it. This mechanic can just be added to exos if HA is not needed.
-add HMG as a rapidfire projectile weapon. Very strong vs. slow targets, bad against fast ones.
I just can't stand the "ice skates" feeling that skulks have now. Try explaining to someone that an alien creature that can walk, and even run, on the ceiling will skate across the floor as if he suddenly has socks on a hardwood floor
I really don't understand people who say this. The ground friction in NS2 is insanely high compared to most other FPS games, not to mention NS1. Yes, the friction is a bit lower in the BT mod but it's barely noticable on anything other than the Onos.
Perhaps armour/weap upgrades in themselves are too generic. What about seeing increased flamer range and burn time, and perhaps alternatives for the shotgun and other weapons that mean bigger commitments, but also potentially bigger rewards?
Some ideas for upgrades:
1. bullets go through aliens and/or thin walls
2. "smart" reload system (similar to gears of war)
3. increased knockback on rifle butts and/or bullets
4. decreased spread on rifle/shotty, increased projectile speed on GL/FT
OR
Keep the current weapon upgrade system, but dont just increase damage for every level. give weapons different attributes as the game progresses. For example, as you upgrade weapons, the rifle gains more piercing ability, the shotgun decreases spread, the FT gets a smart reload system, etc.
Im not sure what to do about armor upgrades. Weapons would need to be somehow rebalanced to account for no changes in damage as the game progresses.
Some ideas for weapons:
-Remove the current GL, add a new single shot "Thumper" type GL that explodes on contact with surfaces. You give up some degree of base rape, but gain a viable weapon that is different from the shotgun.
-Make flamethrowers the comprehensive base destruction tool.
-Remove dual minigun exos, add minigun + 4-clip Grenade launcher
-add "Heavy armor". Has an energy bar similar to Jetpacks. When turned on:
1. the bar slowly drains
2. all damage is absorbed by the shield (damage takes points off the energy bar instead of your hp)
3. movement speed increased
The bar refills when turned off. A skilled marine could toggle the shield on and off to make the most of it. This mechanic can just be added to exos if HA is not needed.
-add HMG as a rapidfire projectile weapon. Very strong vs. slow targets, bad against fast ones.
GL: well, GL could be improved for sure.
HA on JP is just too powerfull for proper clan player. "Not even a scratch syndrome" all the way long. Jp is just plain slow (Like me using a vacuum cleaner) and vertically nerfed. Better make it faster. more natural. Even adding damage when i hit a wall, i take the speed option.
HMG: Too powerfull. The exo is the actual HMG. So fragile and so devastating.
Globally if the game stays the way it is (brick speed, raping fade, Power nodes as fragile as eggs, perf issues etc) it would be better to introduce 2 more chambers for alien (reorganizing some also) and a new tech branch for marines. At least it would make it a real tactic and strategy game. Also making things dynamic concerning balance. Like res flow goes slower if you take tech path one. And faster for path N°2. Those things that just don't exist in NS1&2 and would (have) solve many many issues.
I just can't stand the "ice skates" feeling that skulks have now. Try explaining to someone that an alien creature that can walk, and even run, on the ceiling will skate across the floor as if he suddenly has socks on a hardwood floor
I really don't understand people who say this. The ground friction in NS2 is insanely high compared to most other FPS games, not to mention NS1. Yes, the friction is a bit lower in the BT mod but it's barely noticable on anything other than the Onos.
I actually disagree.
Its the only thing left in BT skulk movement that i feel needs a bit more polish.
Adept players /vets are not effected by it, and new players aren't entirely aware of it, but the in between player who is beginning to grasp the subtleties in what is required can be frustrated by this.
There are other ways to prevent unwanted quick changes in direction if that is indeed the goal and purpose behind skating.
Personally this is where I feel "fun" should over rule balance (or at least push the balance to another area) since any player who dislikes this skating finds it incredibly frustrating.. Almost akin to the unfair "but i was already 5 meters behind the corner!? " scenario that everyone finds frustrating.
It's frustrating because as a player I feel like I did the right thing (quick movement, Dodge, reacted etc) but the game not only negates my effort, *but as a result I often die from it.*
I'd rather whatever goal /issue it was meant to address would be done so in another means, other than some obscure invisible line that i fear crossing and causing my death.
Comments
I'll help you with Starcraft.
Starcraft has pretty much always been designed around what the majority of the player-base thinks. While the game is usually balanced from the top down (with number tweaks mostly), Blizzard has changed many things for the mid-level player and even team games (Starcraft is only an esport for 1v1).
The thing about any successful game, but especially successful esports games, is that you balance from the top down so that, no matter the obstacle, getting better at the game through practice will get you past it. However, the other side of the coin has long since shown that while you may need to balance from the top down, you need to design the game from the bottom up. You start by making something that is easy to learn and so it draws in new players. You then add depth and difficulty through more skillful mechanics and stratagems to encourage players to stay with the game and play more in order to get better and more effectively do certain things.
As people get better at the game, you need to reward them for their efforts. As people get better, they need to feel like they are getting better; their improvements need to transfer to the game so that they, for example, get more kills, win fights they wouldn't have previously, or get a higher score. Rewards can also be in the form of player badges, new skins, or achievements.
At the top, people need something that really tests their mettle with challenging, yet rewarding, mechanics that allows them to show their full potential and prove that they are the best (or close to it). At the top, the game also needs to be balanced so that one or two things don't dominate as that gets boring for players (and viewers).
Unfortunately, it feels like the BT mod is trying to design the game from the top down. It introduces changes that drastically raise the skill floor, making it harder for newer players to pick up the game, while it tries to raise the skill ceiling. It also takes away fun, rewarding mechanics in order to raise the skill ceiling even more and appease the best players.
In the end, the current BT mod is nothing but bad for this game, as is shown by the large amount of players against it. The inclusion of the BT mod into the current game will only speed up the decline of the game we all love: Natural Selection 2.
The main reason that people have only sampled the game and not continued playing is due to the performance since release. I like to correlate the game play to a single player game where you need to kill a monster and it just wont die. You keep shooting, hacking, kicking, and punching it doing every thing in your kit to kill it then finally it ends up killing you.
This is what it feels like for the average player out there when they play NS2 on either marine or alien side. First with the hit registration problem then and still the poor server performance, jump/sudden drops in frame rates. It simply makes for a very frustrating game to play for anyone with an average rig.
Now, in regards to competitive scene vs public please stop referring to it like that. Call it what it is high player count and low player count games. There is not good players in this game only good hardware.
Something I have never understood about skulk movement, it already has a special movement in its kit its called leap. Just needs to be a starting ability that improves with upgrading VIA biomass. Biomass can allow more leaps, farther leaps, deal damage with leap.
BHOP from the first NS was a joke no one actually performed the finger agility they ended up macroing it. So please do not even consider adding this back in. Running on walls (wall jumping) is a very tough mechanic to get down, UWE has tried many iterations none of which have stuck as a good mechanic. It seems to always give the skulk to much of an unfair advantage. That's why I still believe just use what is already in the skulks kit (LEAP).
Another area that should be looked at is individual upgrades( carapace, adrenaline, cloaking, ex..). Why does every upgrade have to do the exact same thing to every life form?
As far as i can tell, Sewlek has always given serious thought to accessibility in designing the bt.
I like your avatar.
The thing that draws me away from the game is the major CPU hit the game takes, I'm not someone who wants to run out and invest a few hundred for an i5/7 CPU, I'm running an AMD Phenom II x4 820 2.8ghz with a GTX 560 and max out most games, excluding this one. It's always bugged me, while the game may be really nice looking, it's still pretty clear that even a budget or mid range GPU should be able to push more than what the game is tossing on the table.
When I join a game, I have my good and bad days with performance, sometimes I will have great performance all the way through the round, other times, I will be running as a skulk getting half to 2 second lag spikes at random times when running around as my CPU stresses with the game. I'll be turning around a corner, lag spike, find out that I've blown up by a shotgun, or the marine variant, nommed by a skulk. (Infact, I have a hard time playing as a marine, shooting fades with low performance is a pain in the ass.) This makes me immediately want to leave the game, and typically I do.
The references to NS1 I would honestly say are completely false, it's an old mod that a majority of casual players likely have never heard about, they do not care if NS2 is anything like NS2, people play CoD: Black OPS/BOII without playing Call of Duty 4, they do not case how CoD4 was, their mind is set on BOII and what is to be made ahead of that. When you're tossing the game on sale like the March sale, it's going to be drawing in new casual players, and they do not want to play a poorly performing game where they get egg locked/IP rushed by competitive players.
To get the casual market, first impressions are everything, things like rushing needs to be resolved, performance should even greater be resolved, the learning curve is really not as steep as some would say, when I did join up in March, the video tutorials that would pop up on my screen were enough to help me learn, with assistance of good commanders who direct me on what to do and where to go. The only weight on my shoulders at that point is to learn to point my gun, at the right place at the right time to ensure I can continue pushing forward.
Performance, egg locking/IP rushes, should definitely be up there as things that need fixed. (I've tested the new beta update, it runs great, far less stress on my CPU's end, now I just wish it would be released sooner, anything else planned at a later time.)
When it comes to features, there may be more or less than NS1, but is this really something to complain about? There's Steam Workshop, a large open platform full of mods to allow you to customize your game the way you want to play. I'm running a new cross hair mod with hit markers that makes things like playing as a skulk significantly more easier for me. (Also cuter gorge eyes and starcraft creep/alien rework, irrelevant.) On the devs end, why not contact good quality mod makers in steam workshop for permission to use their content, this would allow for much faster feature release, as many of the planned features are likely already made, some who would be gladly willing to offer their content to the developers of the game.
The game may need rebalances and fixes in some areas of the map, but I would say performance and making the game more appealing to casual gamers should be top priority. New features and map releases should be following close behind it, maybe in a different patch.
That's my two cents anyways, and to toss this out there, there's plenty of details of upcoming releases, I see nowhere any lack of detail of what's coming up.
[Edit]
I'd just like to toss into my rant about rushing, I've been in servers that would stack up teams just to egg lock even up to 5 games in a row, it kills the game for me, and I'm sure plenty would agree, a spawn protection should be added in for the first 3-5 minutes of the game. (IE, eggs are invincible, skulks have carapace or invincibility for 3 seconds after hatching, vice versa for marines.)
Why even call it ns2 then?
Why not something different then, seeing as its "not" ns1 on better graphics
NS1 is NS1, if players want NS1, it's a free mod and they can easily go back and do so. NS2 is a new game revisioned from the previous title following up a similar gametype, is it not supposed to have new features and fancier graphics?
Some people on here talk about dumbing down, but UWE is a business and there has to be compromise.
Personally I think performance is the elephant in the room, but also the complexity of balancing and the current linear gameplay. Both teams have seemingly very linear paths. I think this could be solved in the way that the BT mod is addressing this with the alien side, by having multiple structures that scale the upgrades.
Perhaps armour/weap upgrades in themselves are too generic. What about seeing increased flamer range and burn time, and perhaps alternatives for the shotgun and other weapons that mean bigger commitments, but also potentially bigger rewards?
Sorry, that is complete BS. Does performance make a difference, absolutely. Is the only difference between players currently down to their hardware? Absolutely not.
Despite your ridiculous previous statement, I did read on... This is actually quite a good point - I like the idea of upgradeable abilities, though not as a replacement for a skill-based movement system. I should clarify that I don't think bunnyhop is the right thing to do here, but I have posted extensively elsewhere my thoughts on this (but I remain fully supportive of implementing a skill-based movement system).
Could you elaborate a bit more on this please? What implementations do you feel raise the skill floor and take away fun, rewarding mechanics?
Because I don't see how the skill floor is being raised drastically, if it's being raised at all. Skulks still rely on walljumping for speed gains and shouldn't be any harder to pick up than the vanilla skulk. Glancing bites are out, yes, but the 75dmg cone is also wider which could arguably prove to be a buff for newbies overall. The fade has gotten blink as his first ability, and the blink+jump combo makes it more easy to move around the map for new players. It's something you can pick up pretty much instantly and be adequate at, in contrary to the ss+dj.
As for marines, the skill floor is still pretty much thesame.
In response to Runteh, flame throwers are incredibly underrated, when you have 3 people covering you, you can clear a room of all it's structures pretty quickly with it (healing stations), and it does wonders with pesky lurks, I would actually disagree with both range and burn time however, but instead more spread.
I think a great way to nerf fades down without killing anyone's baby is honestly not to do anything with their movement, upgrades, mechanics, but instead make them a bit more visible while moving, a shotgun can bring them down pretty quickly provided you can hit them.
I'd have to agree but the topic of balance doesn't look like it's going to die down, something's going to end up changing for the worse or better. I'd see performance and bug fixing more important, before this becomes a Battlefield 3 situation - "rebalancing the game to death."
Both aliens and marines can rape each other provided strategy is in play, it's better to instead focus on the real problems in the game, not just about what people complain about because they're dying too frequently.
With balancing mods like this you end up with people hating the mod and giving up, and others convincing themselves it's for the better. It's not going to be drawing any new players in.
The BF3 approach was decent, but people quickly noticed that they were making weapon characteristics inaccurate and overdoing some of their favorite guns in big packaged updates, people did not take a big liking to that. Instead of addressing issues like Rush game type playing the losing music when you win a round, that took over a year for them to finally fix, they spent more time listening to complainers moan about how "OP" the AEK was in close quarter situations, even now the game still has many map glitches and animation bugs.
Just to toss out there, I know I'm referencing performance and fixes a lot, and I do know that the BT project is being lead by a single dev while more important issues are being addressed. But I speak for myself when I say I'd like if these fixes and the major 249 performance fix were released now and rebalancing/new maps be released at a later time.
The rebalancing and new content could even be saved for a big "Version 250 update," that could be attention grabbing for newer players, along side a summer steam sale.
I see no big issues with NS2 right now, it's really fun and addictive and I had no trouble picking it up, but that's just me, aside from the performance problems, it's a really solid and fluid moving game, in terms of balance, I'm a pub player just here to have fun, when I have a good interactive team that's not interested in immediately rushing IP's and eggs, it's typically a good game, the team with the best strategy wins.
I'm mainly a pub player, though I've dabbled with clan play a little and play gathers where possible. I would say that the main problems so far for NS2 are: performance (yay for b249...!), team stacking (fingers crossed for sabot...), and the lack of depth of usable tactics. By this I mean that certain upgrades are great, while others are not worthwhile, so gameplay can stagnate. It's not a case of working out what upgrades the other team has and adapting your strategy accordingly, it's a matter of going for cara first to hold off for the fade explosion, or the equivalent marine tactic (usually upgrades first, phase early on some maps and not on others). The BT mod is having a crack at addressing this, with some good results amongst a few others perhaps less so.
Changes are needed, but reassuringly I would say that changes are afoot. As with any type of change implementation, management of that change is absolutely crucial for success.
A lot of people haven't read up on BT, a lot haven't taken the time to test BT, a lot haven't tested it enough, and then there's the few who aren't willing to test it because they fear change. If's it's distributed in future updates piece by piece, the existing players who haven't given BT a shot will be more accepting of it, and if they feel a feature is misplaced to the extent that they have the need to post about it, let them have at it and explain their feedback. This of course doesn't discourage the work being done right now, testing it is a great thing, most game developers would just throw it together and force it on everyone with a large change log explaining whose baby they killed.
Team stacking I feel is inevitable, just can't stop that, random teams does really the best job it can to do so, but it's what it is, random.
I've given all the feedback I can in the BT mod thread.
I hope for anyone that decides to make a movement tutorial, that they please actually put the time in to learn the mechanics correctly, and accurately describe them. If you sell this movement to someone as solely based on bunnyhopping, you will misleading people, and creating a lot of confusion. I have seen so much mis-information in all of these threads that I really question how people are explaining the basics, and from what I have seen on these SOTG streams they also have almost no understanding of the mechanics.
The pseudo-bunnyhop doesn't even matter to me, personally. I just can't stand the "ice skates" feeling that skulks have now. Try explaining to someone that an alien creature that can walk, and even run, on the ceiling will skate across the floor as if he suddenly has socks on a hardwood floor. Combine that with the recent change to remove gravitational acceleration, and the skulk just isn't fun or intuitive.
The only "macro" used was the so called "3 jump" in mouse wheel. Any player that did more than that was an easy target. Played clan on NS1, trust me. Bhop was a huge asset to it. And yes we were able to play close to any chamber (upgrade) first.
Right!, the main problem isn't balance. Plus it can be modified promptly (all build have a balance change in that regard). Any match with proper clans i watched is barely getting out of the carapace tactic or the "all-in & GG" (shotgun for marines / Camouflage for alien). The technical problems have an influence somehow.
On pub, take 3 marines that can shoot properly and no alien can stand a chance except if they have the same experience (level). It is usually 50% chance for a good start like that. Otherwise, one hammer the other during all game. Seen that many times. This skulk is a brick. It isn't "natural" to play with for many reasons. 2 of the most annoying for me is the "forbidden mouse-wheel jump" and the skulk FOV (wider angle) that is making ppl think it is faster. But it is just an illusion. This is adding to the lag problem and in a 1 on 1 fight you often see the two enemies turning around chasing each other. Dev tried to hide perf/lag problem with a FOV trick, which just make it worse.
I could achieve a top speed of 14 with less than 2 hours of training. Default is 7. Average i did on BT was 12~13. Not that bad considering tactics. A skulk that can "rendez-vous" faster at some position is better than nothing which is the default NS2 standard. Of course you have to train and forge some "route with checkpoints" on each map. But it makes the difference.
Wall jump... I know some players that can make you leave wall jump were it should be. With some marine you won't even get close to any wall. Proper skulk player hide, preferably ambushing with others, and if lucky (or good start); a drifter is near to help pin pointing the targets. You leave no extra distance between you and the shooter before you attack. You get closer as much as possible. Wall jump has become a "in case of fail" thing. 10% boost even 20% isn't really useful at that point. Claners have no FPS drops. If you fail to hit, don't count too much on wall jump. You will be disappointed. The key sequence and mouse gesture to use wall jump properly is far more complicated than Bunny hopping (no macro included).
The only thing that save a skulk is the performance issue. Performance issue on which relies wall jump. It is common to see a skulk teleporting to the ground (using wall jump). But when you know what's gonna happen.... lower the gun... shoot... tadah.
Some ideas for upgrades:
1. bullets go through aliens and/or thin walls
2. "smart" reload system (similar to gears of war)
3. increased knockback on rifle butts and/or bullets
4. decreased spread on rifle/shotty, increased projectile speed on GL/FT
OR
Keep the current weapon upgrade system, but dont just increase damage for every level. give weapons different attributes as the game progresses. For example, as you upgrade weapons, the rifle gains more piercing ability, the shotgun decreases spread, the FT gets a smart reload system, etc.
Im not sure what to do about armor upgrades. Weapons would need to be somehow rebalanced to account for no changes in damage as the game progresses.
Some ideas for weapons:
-Remove the current GL, add a new single shot "Thumper" type GL that explodes on contact with surfaces. You give up some degree of base rape, but gain a viable weapon that is different from the shotgun.
-Make flamethrowers the comprehensive base destruction tool.
-Remove dual minigun exos, add minigun + 4-clip Grenade launcher
-add "Heavy armor". Has an energy bar similar to Jetpacks. When turned on:
1. the bar slowly drains
2. all damage is absorbed by the shield (damage takes points off the energy bar instead of your hp)
3. movement speed increased
The bar refills when turned off. A skilled marine could toggle the shield on and off to make the most of it. This mechanic can just be added to exos if HA is not needed.
-add HMG as a rapidfire projectile weapon. Very strong vs. slow targets, bad against fast ones.
GL: well, GL could be improved for sure.
HA on JP is just too powerfull for proper clan player. "Not even a scratch syndrome" all the way long. Jp is just plain slow (Like me using a vacuum cleaner) and vertically nerfed. Better make it faster. more natural. Even adding damage when i hit a wall, i take the speed option.
HMG: Too powerfull. The exo is the actual HMG. So fragile and so devastating.
Globally if the game stays the way it is (brick speed, raping fade, Power nodes as fragile as eggs, perf issues etc) it would be better to introduce 2 more chambers for alien (reorganizing some also) and a new tech branch for marines. At least it would make it a real tactic and strategy game. Also making things dynamic concerning balance. Like res flow goes slower if you take tech path one. And faster for path N°2. Those things that just don't exist in NS1&2 and would (have) solve many many issues.
Its the only thing left in BT skulk movement that i feel needs a bit more polish.
Adept players /vets are not effected by it, and new players aren't entirely aware of it, but the in between player who is beginning to grasp the subtleties in what is required can be frustrated by this.
There are other ways to prevent unwanted quick changes in direction if that is indeed the goal and purpose behind skating.
Personally this is where I feel "fun" should over rule balance (or at least push the balance to another area) since any player who dislikes this skating finds it incredibly frustrating.. Almost akin to the unfair "but i was already 5 meters behind the corner!? " scenario that everyone finds frustrating.
It's frustrating because as a player I feel like I did the right thing (quick movement, Dodge, reacted etc) but the game not only negates my effort, *but as a result I often die from it.*
I'd rather whatever goal /issue it was meant to address would be done so in another means, other than some obscure invisible line that i fear crossing and causing my death.