I'll probably get r@ged at, but meh everyone I've spoken to pretty much thinks the same.
This is a common problem amongst people in controversial discussions. People who say "I'll probably get raged at, but everyone I've spoken to pretty much thinks the same". You've said you recognise that people WON'T agree with you but then you say that everyone you've spoken to thinks the same!
I only really talk to competitive players, so naturally I and they will have a different view then some of the people that post on these forums.
I also wish the hosts had done more research on the mod beforehand, a lot of the discussion was basically "this is weird, I tried it last night and not sure if I like it". For an interview show the general lack of acknowledgment of Sewlek even being there was a bit rude. I think Wasabi should have interviewed him individually and then done a State of the Game show later about the mod.
thanks for the show wasabi and co. you did a good job of explaining WHAT balance mod is, but not WHY imo. It would have been good to dedicate the introduction (a good 10+ minutes) to a sort of 'sales pitch' so that sewlek and the hosts could talk more or less specifically about some of the problems he identifies with vanilla and what his goal/approach is with respect to the different 'branches' of NS2 gameplay. This would have given people outside the forums and competitive community a bit of context about this whole thing while also attempting to persuade them that these changes are necessary and well designed.
hindsight is easy i guess, but I imagine there will be something a bit more official or something in the future?
The butt hurt in your post ..... WTF are you even talking about..
You act like I came in to bash on competition players... I simply stated a game can't survive playing favorites to the minority. Casual players ARE the player base of any game, simply put, they are required to sustain the game. Put your big girl panties on and realize that it isn't all about YOU, but rather the community as a whole.
Your post contributes absolutely nothing to the topic at hand. You actually did come in here with the intention to bash the competitive view. "I'm still not 100% on why people are still wasting their breath on silly arguments about competitive players". You're right, I am angry because I said in the OP I wasn't much interested in talking about the changes per se but the actual release of information in the discussion tonight and you've completely disregarded that and effectively spammed this thread with hate for the competitive view.
This discussion is already divided enough with the players who like and dislike the mod that it's completely unnecessary to involve the public/competitive argument. I was talking from my perspective as a competitive player, I didn't include anything about public players because I do not know much about public play and didn't want to misrepresent anyone. Players like you are the WORST kind in the playerbase. Stay on topic and discuss what is at hand, don't throw in these pointless comments about public play when it's not the point of this thread. I'm not saying public play is pointless in general, I'm just talking about this thread with this discussion.
I really liked virsoul sticking to his guns on the armory repair issue. i also liked the idea of having spawning with a welder that you press E to weld players/structures.
thanks for the show wasabi and co. you did a good job of explaining WHAT balance mod is, but not WHY imo. It would have been good to dedicate the introduction (a good 10+ minutes) to a sort of 'sales pitch' so that sewlek and the hosts could talk more or less specifically about some of the problems he identifies with vanilla and what his goal/approach is with respect to the different 'branches' of NS2 gameplay. This would have given people outside the forums and competitive community a bit of context about this whole thing while also attempting to persuade them that these changes are necessary and well designed.
hindsight is easy i guess, but I imagine there will be something a bit more official or something in the future?
I just finished watching the state of the game video on twitch, and I heard a few questions that basically were trying to get at the issue of WHY the balance mod is happening... and the best answer I heard from Andi was "I would like it."
I enjoy many of the things that have been changed in the balance mod, I dislike less than I like. But I still feel like this isn't going to help the NS2 community at all, and I have not yet heard any reason for needing to change the "balance" of the game.. and from my experience the balance mod has made balance much, much worse (with severe marine bias). I still haven't managed to get any organized 6v6 play in though.
a lot of the changes are balance adjustments that would have been in various patches over the past few months
-Cory
And this is where you lost the last 2kish people waiting round on shit that never happened while Sewlek, however useful the testing, held back any real change being implemented in the last few months and will shatter off a very real percentage of whatever 2k concurrent casual players are left by switching 70-80% of what they know around on them.
I got exactly ten people from my other game's comp scene to buy this game, and this why they stopped playing after a month. The nerfs were too big, and the patches took too long to change. To get to a balanced skulk game from b240 took too long. Playtesters probably dropped the ball huge in this game.
@Marshall_Drummin
The playtesters really don't have any say on the game. They simply squash bugs, I believe it caused a large amount of frustration and led to alot of ns1 pro players leaving the team because of it.
I really liked virsoul sticking to his guns on the armory repair issue. i also liked the idea of having spawning with a welder that you press E to weld players/structures.
It really was the wrong forum for it... Why does he not put down his view points like everyone else in the balance thread.
i think he was perfectly right to bring it up - the idea is good, the implementation forced and flawed - if a top player cant point that out properly we are screwed. the more vocally and frequently people do the same the better imo so that we can avoid absolutely stupid changes like that going in...
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2013
How do you mean ignored? for example It was suggested that carapace was a problem, people agreed and Sewlek changed it. Just because he doesn't change things you don't like doesn't mean it is ignored.
As for Virsoul and bitey, they didn't seem to know what was going on with the mod in the first place so I can hardly put much stock in what they had to say on the matter.
I think I speak for at least a fairly decent sized group of "Competitive Players" who think the balance mod is a terrible idea overall and do not in any way support it as a mandatory, game-wide 'patch'.
The reasons i've expounded on before, so no real need to re-hash/beat a dead horse. The mod has alot of merit, some decent changes, etc, I just can't get behind a great deal of them. Nor can many other comp players I know personally.
This post exists more to say "There are comp players who are good players and who will be lost when/if this becomes the paradigm". You can't state otherwise, as I (among others) am fairly valid proof.
I think I speak for at least a fairly decent sized group of "Competitive Players" who think the balance mod is a terrible idea overall and do not in any way support it as a mandatory, game-wide 'patch'.
The reasons i've expounded on before, so no real need to re-hash/beat a dead horse. The mod has alot of merit, some decent changes, etc, I just can't get behind a great deal of them. Nor can many other comp players I know personally.
This post exists more to say "There are comp players who are good players and who will be lost when/if this becomes the paradigm". You can't state otherwise, as I (among others) am fairly valid proof.
-All-In | Colt
Equally, there are comp players who are good players who are already lost.
The question is who do you cater to (if you knew the distinct wants of each group)? The obvious minority who still play this game, or the overwhelming majority who do not? Have a look at concurrent player numbers/trends, and compare that to total number of units sold (i estimate conservatively something like 300k+ although the only firm figure is 140k 1 week after launch).
The game is boring and deeply flawed on a few fundamental levels. Gameplay changes of some sort are needed to draw people back in line with luajit implementation. Otherwise you're just going to have a stale game that runs well. Iterative development keeps people interested, performance allows that interest to take root. You can't really have one without the other.
========
Quite honestly, anyone who calls themselves a competitive player yet doesn't seem to understand skulk movement past 'ice skating' needs to have a serious rethink and play the bt mod much, much more. Feedback is fine and all, but misinformation from people who arn't taking the time to understand something before passing judgement is not really adding anything of value to the discussion.
In a way, I think its a good sign that we're getting this ice skating feedback because its showing that bt skulk movement has a high enough skill ceiling that even so called comp players can't understand it easily. Although it's more probably because their too used to the easy mode strafe controls that have been in live ns2 since day 1.
As for opinions stated in the show that the fault was on andi for 'not making it clear how to do skulk movement' and 'now my tutorial videos don't work', shame on you. The irony is walljump is mechanically the same in bt as it is in live - to the letter. The only difference is it's now your main source of speed, instead of simply falling from the sky.
I haven't seen the SOTG thing yet, but from what I'm reading I'm not going to like it.
Also, the new skulk movement is a million times more fun that just jumping around pre-game is entertaining, going back to vanilla is torture. In fact, we're only interested in BT matches at this point...
When you learn the new stuff it's actually more fun, although there's still adjustments to be made.
I wonder how long people have played the mod before discarding it completely, and if they even tried to LEARN.
As for opinions stated in the show that the fault was on andi for 'not making it clear how to do skulk movement' and 'now my tutorial videos don't work', shame on you. The irony is walljump is mechanically the same in bt as it is in live - to the letter. The only difference is it's now your main source of speed, instead of simply falling from the sky.
Yeah, that was a bit uninformed, but the 'not making it clear how to do skulk movement' is true for both BT and live build. The number of ground skulks I still see to this day is a testament to the unintuitiveness of the movement mechanic.
The game is boring and deeply flawed on a few fundamental levels. Gameplay changes of some sort are needed to draw people back in line with luajit implementation. Otherwise you're just going to have a stale game that runs well. Iterative development keeps people interested, performance allows that interest to take root. You can't really have one without the other.
I don't disagree; but I also think making these massive changes/iterative adaptation is a 100% guaranteed loss of players, with almost 0% guarantee of gain of players. From a concurrent playercount standpoint, you are absolutely assured that a decent-sized chunk of core players are going to leave over it. You are in no way, shape or form guaranteed to 'bring back' old players, capture some new audience, or boost sales in some tangible way. I have every hope that such an implementation has been mulled over and the sales/retaining numbers are there for such a thing, I just haven't been exposed to many people who actually ENJOY the BT (outside of the typical ~50-100 'forum regulars' and 'community rockstars'). Most of the people I see day-to-day in scrims, in-game, etc, simply disregard it and/or mildly dislike it. Many will certainly stick around and learn the new mechanics. Many won't.
Quite honestly, anyone who calls themselves a competitive player yet doesn't seem to understand skulk movement past 'ice skating' needs to have a serious rethink and play the bt mod much, much more. Feedback is fine and all, but misinformation from people who arn't taking the time to understand something before passing judgement is not really adding anything of value to the discussion.
Not sure if this is aimed at me, as I've limited my arguments relative to the finite WITHIN the BT to very few posts, outside of generic dislike. That said, people simply aren't going to like sweeping physics changes and movement re-creations; they've spent time learning the game and developing a skillset within it, and for anyone (whether me, you, or anyone else) to come along and dictate unto them that they are a "baddy who needs to l2p a higher skill ceiling" isn't going to retain them or entice them as a player. Again, this isn't about the details of the mod, more about actually retaining a playerbase outside of the 30 or so sycophants with a million forum posts and/or 'contributions'.
In a way, I think its a good sign that we're getting this ice skating feedback because its showing that bt skulk movement has a high enough skill ceiling that even so called comp players can't understand it easily. Although it's more probably because their too used to the easy mode strafe controls that have been in live ns2 since day 1.
This is a thinly veiled insult you're offering to anyone who disagrees with you. This type of language and lack of tact serves no purpose but to further divide the community and make you and those who follow your line of thinking appear to be trolls. You should hold yourself to a more respectable standard than this kind of low-brow bashing.
As for opinions stated in the show that the fault was on andi for 'not making it clear how to do skulk movement' and 'now my tutorial videos don't work', shame on you. The irony is walljump is mechanically the same in bt as it is in live - to the letter. The only difference is it's now your main source of speed, instead of simply falling from the sky.
I actually personally enjoy a higher skill ceiling. I'd probably bother learning to adapt and embrace a sweeping set of changes if I felt it was genuinely going to serve the better interest of the title as a whole. The point is that i don't believe it does; and as I've personally heard from way too many people that "I'm leaving because theyre making the sweepingly-changing-every-week BT into the vanilla game", it appears to me to be a pretty kamikaze attempt at rejuvenating a struggling playercount. Sweeping, glorious physics rehashes are going to scare away so much of the current audience that I feel it's a dangerous prospect. I don't think there's much merit in arguing the specifics of the BT itself, as that changes so rapidly and with such volatility that it's sort of pointless outside of ego-boosting and name-calling, back-patting and sycophantic self-service.
There is a flip side where, likewise, a portion of players will have no interest in continuing to play NS2 if the changes in the bt mod do not go into the game.
I personally find vanilla NS2 very stale, and I don't think I would continue to be interested in the game if it were to stay that way. The BT mod addresses a lot of issues and makes the game more enjoyable on several levels to me, and it's currently the reason I play and will continue to do so.
I guess my point is, the game is hurting right now, and they will lose players no matter what happens or what they do. Release the patch? someone's gonna quit. Don't release the patch? someone's gonna quit. The point should be establishing a more stable base (in terms of both performance and game depth) with better player retention that you can further build upon.
There have been so many incidences in the history of players threatening to boycott developers if they do X or don't do Y, but in the end most of them did not have the discipline to even make that threat true. MW2's dedicated servers are just one example; Origin would be another one.
Because of that, I can't really take any player serious anymore who says that he will definitely stop playing/supporting a game/developer if he doesn't get what he wants. Some players may really boycott it, but a lot will still find the game too fun and addictive even after the changes to leave it. They may gnarl and repeat again and again how it was so much better before, but the key is that they will still be there.
Sorry, I should have mentioned that this is a competitive point of view. People want to practice to be the best and you can only do that if you know what you need to practice. Thinking of build orders, movement changes, weapons practice, life form practice etc.
If this change is looming over the game, people aren't going to want to practice with the knowledge that the game could change and have their hours wasted. No practise, no pcws, no pcws and teams fold. Obviously not everyone is going to have this opinion, but when the player base is already so low, it's actually a large percentage. Quoth gaming, Onslaught, and moebius every day of the week because they're basically the only opponent.
Brother, you started in with the "competitive" players point of view crap... how about we just fix the damn thing and worry about competition later, THIS WAS MY POINT - the echo of your resounding crap personal bashes, self important BS laden tude are part of what killed this community. It's been that way for awhile, unfriendly to new players, unfriendly to different points of view and flat out just hateful some times. Everyone screams they know best, your just another in the long line.
I'm pretty sure there is a huge chance that many good players will stop playing the game.
And still, it's as if everyone lives under a rock.. You can't have a game based solely on competitive players.. the foundation and community HAS TO BE THERE. You can't cater to a single group of players, and you can't build a group of players without a player base. 6 months is all that it took to wipe out a good number of players, I don't want to see another six of the same...
you came here spouting the point, I countered the point, you got butt hurt. Life moves on for me.
People should stop speaking like they are are talking for the whole public/competitive community. I think players should simply focus on what they feel and from their experience. This is post is my view. After I played the BT a bit I just can't enjoy a game of vanilla anymore.
I have played few pcw's and a lot of public in the balance test, got feedback from quite a lot of players. From my experience(competitive or not) the bigger the change, more players will avoid giving it a real chance. Changes means they have to use energy to learn new stuff and just thought of that seems to make players not wanting to play. When they finally try it out the already decided its not good enough because its not like what they are used to. This happened initially in my own team. After they gave it some time and learned the new mechanics (2-3 games) they started to like it more and more and in the end. Most of them can't really play vanilla anymore because it simply has less to offer. We even saw the same issue when trying out decent in competitive, most players didn't want to learn a new map. But after they gave it a good chance it was a welcome addition.
These changes are not only for competitive play, its for everyone. All the skill levels are important, does not matter if its lower/higher level pub or competitive. Both teams should scale on similar speed so the game is can be enjoyed by everyone. The other mission is to have even losing games fun.
So instead of complaining about every single change at least give it a real chance. Give the skulk and the fade some chance and you will see how much more freedom it gives compared to vanilla. Sure playing aliens in vanilla is easier but at the same time less rewarding and allowed aliens to dominate public to easily. After giving it a real chance give feedback on what you think could be done better and why. I also recommend studying why many of these changes are made. More positive attitude also give the devs more energy to work on their things and helps them to get more stuff done. Its a good motivator.
For the armor repair on armories, I recommend simply watching vanilla games and the bt games. It won't take long to notice how less defensive oriented marines are in vanilla and how it creates much more dynamic and interesting gameplay without it in bt. Sure it can be bit frustrating that you can't get full armor by yourself but at the same time you will always be happy when you see another marine help you out. It kinda balance itself out when aliens are using umbra, gorges and fades together in pushes for marines to weld each other, it really rewards teamplay. It also makes it much less frustrating for aliens not having to fight fully armored marine every single fight. If you disagree I welcome any constructive feedback .
What I would like to ask of everyone is to try the BT mod with an open mind. Even if you can't play as well as in vanilla right away just ask the players around you for some tips and get used to the new system. In the end score does not really matter, just doing your best is enough . If its still not that interesting after that then write a nice post like this one with detailed reasons why its not fun and Sewlek can hopefully find a solution.
Your entire arguement seems to boil down to: "change is bad, regardless of potential merit."
And i guess that is the impasse. You believe the bt mod will kill the game simply because it is change. That's just not a point I can discuss with. Likewise, as the AU nsl admin, I believe the game will die on its own in another ~6 months at most (The AU pub-base anyway - AU comp base has already died) if no fundamental fixes/changes are forthcoming. That is also not a point someone from the US can discuss.
This is a thinly veiled insult you're offering to anyone who disagrees with you. This type of language and lack of tact serves no purpose but to further divide the community and make you and those who follow your line of thinking appear to be trolls. You should hold yourself to a more respectable standard than this kind of low-brow bashing.
Despite all good intentions, sometimes the truth hurts perhaps. I'm not really sure how else i could have worded what i posted? If group x are testing mechanic A for a reasonable period of time and finding that it actually adds a whole lot more depth and goodness, what other conclusion can you draw when group y have the exact same initial reaction (ice skating) as group x but then fail to progress any further? What would your impression be if group y then started posting a bunch of 'we're going to leave if this happens' on the forums?
What i've noticed is that the 'anti-bt sentiment' seems to be concentrated within the US competitive scene; not EU, not AU, not ASIA. Such specificity seems to suggest to me some kind of negative group reinforcement/feedback happening within that particular community. Who knows. Maybe the US community in general is just able to tolerate stale gameplay for longer.
I actually personally enjoy a higher skill ceiling. I'd probably bother learning to adapt and embrace a sweeping set of changes if I felt it was genuinely going to serve the better interest of the title as a whole. The point is that i don't believe it does; and as I've personally heard from way too many people that "I'm leaving because theyre making the sweepingly-changing-every-week BT into the vanilla game", it appears to me to be a pretty kamikaze attempt at rejuvenating a struggling playercount.
See, there's your catch 22. How can you tell if something 'serves the better interest of the title', if you don't bother learning it? It wouldn't surprise me if those people you personally hear from are also personally hearing it from others who are also not... you get the point.
Also, the mod changes based on discussion on the specifics of the bt mod. Afaik, andi takes all feedback seriously. You have entirely the wrong picture. Sycophantism... -_-
i think everyone has conceded that there are aspects they enjoy in BT, but the scope and scale of the changes mean that there are inevitably big dislikes for everyone as well. im sure that a more progressive approach would be better accepted - though it has less marketing potential. i think people are also justifiably worried that it will be a big step back in terms of balance.
as for the armories, the reward from welding is independent from the armory because its mobile, cheap and efficient. the armor repair removal is not the best way to promote that kind of teamplay. i much prefer the idea that players would spawn with a weaker welder by default (or you could make it only if they have an armory up on the map) used by pressing e (with the reduced mobility that incurs). armories could then have their cost,hp and build time adjusted so that they remain a viable way to fortify a position efficiently. you could then make a purchasable 'blowtorch' with a bit more power and that doesnt slow you down. but at least this way, if your teammates just dont bother you can atleast look after yourself and i think thats a very important. it also completely avoids this issue, while at the same time making marines welding eachother easier.
Somewhat disappointed in the SOTG show, I was really looking forward to it being a major event in the formation of the mod and it didn't really come across as that. Far too much time was spent simply explaining the changes and not enough time spent actually discussing the changes and their ramifications. It was also clear that none of the panel other than Wasabi had any experience with the BT mod up until the night before the show, and yet they all still spoke about the changes more than Sewlek. I wanted much more Sewlek, it's his rationale that I want to hear more than anything else. The most controversial change in my opinion, and the one that I am most opposed to, are the changes to shadowstep and fade movement, but these changes were not even addressed in the video. Sigh.
I'm still very much on the fence about the balance mod, there are some changes that I love and would want to have in the game immediately, but there are others that I don't really see the point for. Why do the aliens need bhop? Why do you need to stop armories healing armor? I have yet to hear a really compelling explanation from Sewlek on these changes, and as far as I can tell the reasoning behind them is because "that's the way NS1 did things." Don't get me wrong, I love NS1, but I see no need to insert these changes into NS2. On top of this I have yet to hear from Sewlek why he has even decided that dramatically changing so many aspects of the game is necessary. He hasn't given a reason for that either, as far as I can tell. I can't speak for all competitive players, only the ones I talk to on a daily basis, but most of my teammates share these concerns about the balance mod. If Sewlek really has a good reason for inserting these features, I would love to hear them, but he didn't deliver in the show.
So definitely a little disappointed. I was expecting to gain some clarity about this project but ended up just as concerned and confused as I have been for the past weeks.
EDIT: Does anyone have the link to the survey monkey that Wasabi linked during the show? I wasn't able to watch live but I would like to be able to share my opinions on certain things.
If the BT mod were discarded and we just stayed the course with small tweaks moving forward, I can say definitively that I will not continue playing the game for much longer. Live has almost run its course for me, it's been fun but there are a lot of outstanding issues. I do not claim to know what the final outcome will be on the player count after the mod is implemented, but I think it's safe to assume that if it isn't it will continue trending downwards at least until the next content patch. And if a content patch is all it is then I think the same thing will happen again after the brief player spike.
There have been so many incidences in the history of players threatening to boycott developers if they do X or don't do Y, but in the end most of them did not have the discipline to even make that threat true. MW2's dedicated servers are just one example; Origin would be another one.
Because of that, I can't really take any player serious anymore who says that he will definitely stop playing/supporting a game/developer if he doesn't get what he wants. Some players may really boycott it, but a lot will still find the game too fun and addictive even after the changes to leave it. They may gnarl and repeat again and again how it was so much better before, but the key is that they will still be there.
Is it still a boycott if I already paid but choose to stop playing?
I think you're also misunderstanding the reason why people are "threatening" to leave. It's not because they disagree with a business decision like that MW2 or Origin example. It's because they bought a game, enjoyed it, and now the game is being changed into something that is no longer what they paid for and enjoyed in the first place.
If the BT mod were discarded and we just stayed the course with small tweaks moving forward, I can say definitively that I will not continue playing the game for much longer. Live has almost run its course for me, it's been fun but there are a lot of outstanding issues. I do not claim to know what the final outcome will be on the player count after the mod is implemented, but I think it's safe to assume that if it isn't it will continue trending downwards at least until the next content patch. And if a content patch is all it is then I think the same thing will happen again after the brief player spike.
I do not think many want to discard the BT mod. There are good changes in there but people keep repeating their dislike for certain changes which I am sure you are aware about. It seems there is no compromise for certain changes no matter how much feedback you provide. For me this was shown in that interview today and throughout the forums since the mod was introduced. So for now I am just waiting to see what is in the final version of the mod to see how things go. Yea I played BT mod for a few days and gave feedback but I did not like forcing myself to play something I did not enjoy. Still I felt it was necessary to give proper feedback and I am sure others did the same. However when you figure out certain mechanics are already set in stone and pages of arguing is not going to change that, there really is no reason to continue wasting time unless you are an avid supporter.
The tuning point for me was 240. Skulk became nerfed and annoying to play as months passed despite initial complaints it remained the same in vanilla. Idk how many others felt like this but the slow patches that contributed to odd changes up until 248 did not really help the state of the game. Now that that is over with and more players took off, the solution is to apply a big patch to the remaining player base without really knowing what percentage will be okay with the changes. There was an option for a survey in the state of the balance mod but that was only for the people in chat. I still believe UWE needs to actually make the mod noticeable IN GAME using feedback links and polls and advertising to see what features are the most controversial which should be obvious by now but more stats is never bad right? But then again google moderator was shut down and so I get the feeling public outreach is not a priority unless it is to advertise the game and then mod when it is finalized in some sale or whenever the next content patch rolls in.
What i've noticed is that the 'anti-bt sentiment' seems to be concentrated within the US competitive scene; not EU, not AU, not ASIA. Such specificity seems to suggest to me some kind of negative group reinforcement/feedback happening within that particular community. Who knows. Maybe the US community in general is just able to tolerate stale gameplay for longer.
I'm not sure if it's the whole story even in EU, but I think over here a lot comes from the longerivty of NS1 Euro community. Due to the long surviving NS1 comp scene, also the NS2 section has a lot strong connections to NS1. It isn't a big surprise that such playerbase is quite eager to embrace changes that direct the game towards NS1 gameplay.
If the BT mod were discarded and we just stayed the course with small tweaks moving forward, I can say definitively that I will not continue playing the game for much longer. Live has almost run its course for me, it's been fun but there are a lot of outstanding issues. I do not claim to know what the final outcome will be on the player count after the mod is implemented, but I think it's safe to assume that if it isn't it will continue trending downwards at least until the next content patch. And if a content patch is all it is then I think the same thing will happen again after the brief player spike.
I don't think anyone is suggesting doing away with the BT entirely. The way I look at it right now something like 80% of the changes are for the better. It's just the other 20% that concerns me, and it's what makes me vocalize my concerns in an attempt to let Sewlek hear that some people disagree with some of his changes.
I can't speak for anyone else but I would bet that even the most vocal dissenters to the mod would be okay with a good number of the changes being added to the game
If the BT mod were discarded and we just stayed the course with small tweaks moving forward, I can say definitively that I will not continue playing the game for much longer. Live has almost run its course for me, it's been fun but there are a lot of outstanding issues. I do not claim to know what the final outcome will be on the player count after the mod is implemented, but I think it's safe to assume that if it isn't it will continue trending downwards at least until the next content patch. And if a content patch is all it is then I think the same thing will happen again after the brief player spike.
I do not think many want to discard the BT mod. There are good changes in there but people keep repeating their dislike for certain changes which I am sure you are aware about. It seems there is no compromise for certain changes no matter how much feedback you provide. For me this was shown in that interview today and throughout the forums since the mod was introduced. So for now I am just waiting to see what is in the final version of the mod to see how things go. Yea I played BT mod for a few days and gave feedback but I did not like forcing myself to play something I did not enjoy. Still I felt it was necessary to give proper feedback and I am sure others did the same. However when you figure out certain mechanics are already set in stone and pages of arguing is not going to change that, there really is no reason to continue wasting time unless you are an avid supporter.
The tuning point for me was 240. Skulk became nerfed and annoying to play as months passed despite initial complaints it remained the same in vanilla. Idk how many others felt like this but the slow patches that contributed to odd changes up until 248 did not really help the state of the game. Now that that is over with and more players took off, the solution is to apply a big patch to the remaining player base without really knowing what percentage will be okay with the changes. There was an option for a survey in the state of the balance mod but that was only for the people in chat. I still believe UWE needs to actually make the mod noticeable IN GAME using feedback links and polls and advertising to see what features are the most controversial which should be obvious by now but more stats is never bad right? But then again google moderator was shut down and so I get the feeling public outreach is not a priority unless it is to advertise the game and then mod when it is finalized in some sale or whenever the next content patch rolls in.
Sure there are changes that everyone can agree on, but those are mainly the "small tweaks." If Sewlek followed design by committee and removed every change that had people up in arms, then what we have left would just be a fairly uninteresting iterative patch. It's about risk vs reward - in order to really solve the game's more underlying problems, you have to make big changes which will ruffle some feathers. For instance, the armory healing change and the skulk bunnyhopping are two of the biggest things I'm looking forward to from the BT. But those would be the first things to get axed if we followed the common argument that big changes are scary because they might drive people off.
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I only really talk to competitive players, so naturally I and they will have a different view then some of the people that post on these forums.
hindsight is easy i guess, but I imagine there will be something a bit more official or something in the future?
Your post contributes absolutely nothing to the topic at hand. You actually did come in here with the intention to bash the competitive view. "I'm still not 100% on why people are still wasting their breath on silly arguments about competitive players". You're right, I am angry because I said in the OP I wasn't much interested in talking about the changes per se but the actual release of information in the discussion tonight and you've completely disregarded that and effectively spammed this thread with hate for the competitive view.
This discussion is already divided enough with the players who like and dislike the mod that it's completely unnecessary to involve the public/competitive argument. I was talking from my perspective as a competitive player, I didn't include anything about public players because I do not know much about public play and didn't want to misrepresent anyone. Players like you are the WORST kind in the playerbase. Stay on topic and discuss what is at hand, don't throw in these pointless comments about public play when it's not the point of this thread. I'm not saying public play is pointless in general, I'm just talking about this thread with this discussion.
I just finished watching the state of the game video on twitch, and I heard a few questions that basically were trying to get at the issue of WHY the balance mod is happening... and the best answer I heard from Andi was "I would like it."
I enjoy many of the things that have been changed in the balance mod, I dislike less than I like. But I still feel like this isn't going to help the NS2 community at all, and I have not yet heard any reason for needing to change the "balance" of the game.. and from my experience the balance mod has made balance much, much worse (with severe marine bias). I still haven't managed to get any organized 6v6 play in though.
I got exactly ten people from my other game's comp scene to buy this game, and this why they stopped playing after a month. The nerfs were too big, and the patches took too long to change. To get to a balanced skulk game from b240 took too long. Playtesters probably dropped the ball huge in this game.
gg hf
The playtesters really don't have any say on the game. They simply squash bugs, I believe it caused a large amount of frustration and led to alot of ns1 pro players leaving the team because of it.
It really was the wrong forum for it... Why does he not put down his view points like everyone else in the balance thread.
So he could get ignored like everyone else? He and Bitey are just saying what a large portion of the competitive community is thinking...
As for Virsoul and bitey, they didn't seem to know what was going on with the mod in the first place so I can hardly put much stock in what they had to say on the matter.
The reasons i've expounded on before, so no real need to re-hash/beat a dead horse. The mod has alot of merit, some decent changes, etc, I just can't get behind a great deal of them. Nor can many other comp players I know personally.
This post exists more to say "There are comp players who are good players and who will be lost when/if this becomes the paradigm". You can't state otherwise, as I (among others) am fairly valid proof.
-All-In | Colt
The question is who do you cater to (if you knew the distinct wants of each group)? The obvious minority who still play this game, or the overwhelming majority who do not? Have a look at concurrent player numbers/trends, and compare that to total number of units sold (i estimate conservatively something like 300k+ although the only firm figure is 140k 1 week after launch).
The game is boring and deeply flawed on a few fundamental levels. Gameplay changes of some sort are needed to draw people back in line with luajit implementation. Otherwise you're just going to have a stale game that runs well. Iterative development keeps people interested, performance allows that interest to take root. You can't really have one without the other.
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Quite honestly, anyone who calls themselves a competitive player yet doesn't seem to understand skulk movement past 'ice skating' needs to have a serious rethink and play the bt mod much, much more. Feedback is fine and all, but misinformation from people who arn't taking the time to understand something before passing judgement is not really adding anything of value to the discussion.
In a way, I think its a good sign that we're getting this ice skating feedback because its showing that bt skulk movement has a high enough skill ceiling that even so called comp players can't understand it easily. Although it's more probably because their too used to the easy mode strafe controls that have been in live ns2 since day 1.
As for opinions stated in the show that the fault was on andi for 'not making it clear how to do skulk movement' and 'now my tutorial videos don't work', shame on you. The irony is walljump is mechanically the same in bt as it is in live - to the letter. The only difference is it's now your main source of speed, instead of simply falling from the sky.
Also, the new skulk movement is a million times more fun that just jumping around pre-game is entertaining, going back to vanilla is torture. In fact, we're only interested in BT matches at this point...
When you learn the new stuff it's actually more fun, although there's still adjustments to be made.
I wonder how long people have played the mod before discarding it completely, and if they even tried to LEARN.
I don't disagree; but I also think making these massive changes/iterative adaptation is a 100% guaranteed loss of players, with almost 0% guarantee of gain of players. From a concurrent playercount standpoint, you are absolutely assured that a decent-sized chunk of core players are going to leave over it. You are in no way, shape or form guaranteed to 'bring back' old players, capture some new audience, or boost sales in some tangible way. I have every hope that such an implementation has been mulled over and the sales/retaining numbers are there for such a thing, I just haven't been exposed to many people who actually ENJOY the BT (outside of the typical ~50-100 'forum regulars' and 'community rockstars'). Most of the people I see day-to-day in scrims, in-game, etc, simply disregard it and/or mildly dislike it. Many will certainly stick around and learn the new mechanics. Many won't.
Not sure if this is aimed at me, as I've limited my arguments relative to the finite WITHIN the BT to very few posts, outside of generic dislike. That said, people simply aren't going to like sweeping physics changes and movement re-creations; they've spent time learning the game and developing a skillset within it, and for anyone (whether me, you, or anyone else) to come along and dictate unto them that they are a "baddy who needs to l2p a higher skill ceiling" isn't going to retain them or entice them as a player. Again, this isn't about the details of the mod, more about actually retaining a playerbase outside of the 30 or so sycophants with a million forum posts and/or 'contributions'.
This is a thinly veiled insult you're offering to anyone who disagrees with you. This type of language and lack of tact serves no purpose but to further divide the community and make you and those who follow your line of thinking appear to be trolls. You should hold yourself to a more respectable standard than this kind of low-brow bashing.
I actually personally enjoy a higher skill ceiling. I'd probably bother learning to adapt and embrace a sweeping set of changes if I felt it was genuinely going to serve the better interest of the title as a whole. The point is that i don't believe it does; and as I've personally heard from way too many people that "I'm leaving because theyre making the sweepingly-changing-every-week BT into the vanilla game", it appears to me to be a pretty kamikaze attempt at rejuvenating a struggling playercount. Sweeping, glorious physics rehashes are going to scare away so much of the current audience that I feel it's a dangerous prospect. I don't think there's much merit in arguing the specifics of the BT itself, as that changes so rapidly and with such volatility that it's sort of pointless outside of ego-boosting and name-calling, back-patting and sycophantic self-service.
I personally find vanilla NS2 very stale, and I don't think I would continue to be interested in the game if it were to stay that way. The BT mod addresses a lot of issues and makes the game more enjoyable on several levels to me, and it's currently the reason I play and will continue to do so.
I guess my point is, the game is hurting right now, and they will lose players no matter what happens or what they do. Release the patch? someone's gonna quit. Don't release the patch? someone's gonna quit. The point should be establishing a more stable base (in terms of both performance and game depth) with better player retention that you can further build upon.
Funnily enough this comes to my mind: http://www.ardemk.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Boycott-Modern-Warfare-2.jpg
There have been so many incidences in the history of players threatening to boycott developers if they do X or don't do Y, but in the end most of them did not have the discipline to even make that threat true. MW2's dedicated servers are just one example; Origin would be another one.
Because of that, I can't really take any player serious anymore who says that he will definitely stop playing/supporting a game/developer if he doesn't get what he wants. Some players may really boycott it, but a lot will still find the game too fun and addictive even after the changes to leave it. They may gnarl and repeat again and again how it was so much better before, but the key is that they will still be there.
Brother, you started in with the "competitive" players point of view crap... how about we just fix the damn thing and worry about competition later, THIS WAS MY POINT - the echo of your resounding crap personal bashes, self important BS laden tude are part of what killed this community. It's been that way for awhile, unfriendly to new players, unfriendly to different points of view and flat out just hateful some times. Everyone screams they know best, your just another in the long line.
And still, it's as if everyone lives under a rock.. You can't have a game based solely on competitive players.. the foundation and community HAS TO BE THERE. You can't cater to a single group of players, and you can't build a group of players without a player base. 6 months is all that it took to wipe out a good number of players, I don't want to see another six of the same...
you came here spouting the point, I countered the point, you got butt hurt. Life moves on for me.
I have played few pcw's and a lot of public in the balance test, got feedback from quite a lot of players. From my experience(competitive or not) the bigger the change, more players will avoid giving it a real chance. Changes means they have to use energy to learn new stuff and just thought of that seems to make players not wanting to play. When they finally try it out the already decided its not good enough because its not like what they are used to. This happened initially in my own team. After they gave it some time and learned the new mechanics (2-3 games) they started to like it more and more and in the end. Most of them can't really play vanilla anymore because it simply has less to offer. We even saw the same issue when trying out decent in competitive, most players didn't want to learn a new map. But after they gave it a good chance it was a welcome addition.
These changes are not only for competitive play, its for everyone. All the skill levels are important, does not matter if its lower/higher level pub or competitive. Both teams should scale on similar speed so the game is can be enjoyed by everyone. The other mission is to have even losing games fun.
So instead of complaining about every single change at least give it a real chance. Give the skulk and the fade some chance and you will see how much more freedom it gives compared to vanilla. Sure playing aliens in vanilla is easier but at the same time less rewarding and allowed aliens to dominate public to easily. After giving it a real chance give feedback on what you think could be done better and why. I also recommend studying why many of these changes are made. More positive attitude also give the devs more energy to work on their things and helps them to get more stuff done. Its a good motivator.
For the armor repair on armories, I recommend simply watching vanilla games and the bt games. It won't take long to notice how less defensive oriented marines are in vanilla and how it creates much more dynamic and interesting gameplay without it in bt. Sure it can be bit frustrating that you can't get full armor by yourself but at the same time you will always be happy when you see another marine help you out. It kinda balance itself out when aliens are using umbra, gorges and fades together in pushes for marines to weld each other, it really rewards teamplay. It also makes it much less frustrating for aliens not having to fight fully armored marine every single fight. If you disagree I welcome any constructive feedback
What I would like to ask of everyone is to try the BT mod with an open mind. Even if you can't play as well as in vanilla right away just ask the players around you for some tips and get used to the new system. In the end score does not really matter, just doing your best is enough
"change is bad, regardless of potential merit."
And i guess that is the impasse. You believe the bt mod will kill the game simply because it is change. That's just not a point I can discuss with. Likewise, as the AU nsl admin, I believe the game will die on its own in another ~6 months at most (The AU pub-base anyway - AU comp base has already died) if no fundamental fixes/changes are forthcoming. That is also not a point someone from the US can discuss.
Despite all good intentions, sometimes the truth hurts perhaps. I'm not really sure how else i could have worded what i posted? If group x are testing mechanic A for a reasonable period of time and finding that it actually adds a whole lot more depth and goodness, what other conclusion can you draw when group y have the exact same initial reaction (ice skating) as group x but then fail to progress any further? What would your impression be if group y then started posting a bunch of 'we're going to leave if this happens' on the forums?
What i've noticed is that the 'anti-bt sentiment' seems to be concentrated within the US competitive scene; not EU, not AU, not ASIA. Such specificity seems to suggest to me some kind of negative group reinforcement/feedback happening within that particular community. Who knows. Maybe the US community in general is just able to tolerate stale gameplay for longer.
See, there's your catch 22. How can you tell if something 'serves the better interest of the title', if you don't bother learning it? It wouldn't surprise me if those people you personally hear from are also personally hearing it from others who are also not... you get the point.
Also, the mod changes based on discussion on the specifics of the bt mod. Afaik, andi takes all feedback seriously. You have entirely the wrong picture. Sycophantism... -_-
as for the armories, the reward from welding is independent from the armory because its mobile, cheap and efficient. the armor repair removal is not the best way to promote that kind of teamplay. i much prefer the idea that players would spawn with a weaker welder by default (or you could make it only if they have an armory up on the map) used by pressing e (with the reduced mobility that incurs). armories could then have their cost,hp and build time adjusted so that they remain a viable way to fortify a position efficiently. you could then make a purchasable 'blowtorch' with a bit more power and that doesnt slow you down. but at least this way, if your teammates just dont bother you can atleast look after yourself and i think thats a very important. it also completely avoids this issue, while at the same time making marines welding eachother easier.
I'm still very much on the fence about the balance mod, there are some changes that I love and would want to have in the game immediately, but there are others that I don't really see the point for. Why do the aliens need bhop? Why do you need to stop armories healing armor? I have yet to hear a really compelling explanation from Sewlek on these changes, and as far as I can tell the reasoning behind them is because "that's the way NS1 did things." Don't get me wrong, I love NS1, but I see no need to insert these changes into NS2. On top of this I have yet to hear from Sewlek why he has even decided that dramatically changing so many aspects of the game is necessary. He hasn't given a reason for that either, as far as I can tell. I can't speak for all competitive players, only the ones I talk to on a daily basis, but most of my teammates share these concerns about the balance mod. If Sewlek really has a good reason for inserting these features, I would love to hear them, but he didn't deliver in the show.
So definitely a little disappointed. I was expecting to gain some clarity about this project but ended up just as concerned and confused as I have been for the past weeks.
EDIT: Does anyone have the link to the survey monkey that Wasabi linked during the show? I wasn't able to watch live but I would like to be able to share my opinions on certain things.
Is it still a boycott if I already paid but choose to stop playing?
I think you're also misunderstanding the reason why people are "threatening" to leave. It's not because they disagree with a business decision like that MW2 or Origin example. It's because they bought a game, enjoyed it, and now the game is being changed into something that is no longer what they paid for and enjoyed in the first place.
I do not think many want to discard the BT mod. There are good changes in there but people keep repeating their dislike for certain changes which I am sure you are aware about. It seems there is no compromise for certain changes no matter how much feedback you provide. For me this was shown in that interview today and throughout the forums since the mod was introduced. So for now I am just waiting to see what is in the final version of the mod to see how things go. Yea I played BT mod for a few days and gave feedback but I did not like forcing myself to play something I did not enjoy. Still I felt it was necessary to give proper feedback and I am sure others did the same. However when you figure out certain mechanics are already set in stone and pages of arguing is not going to change that, there really is no reason to continue wasting time unless you are an avid supporter.
The tuning point for me was 240. Skulk became nerfed and annoying to play as months passed despite initial complaints it remained the same in vanilla. Idk how many others felt like this but the slow patches that contributed to odd changes up until 248 did not really help the state of the game. Now that that is over with and more players took off, the solution is to apply a big patch to the remaining player base without really knowing what percentage will be okay with the changes. There was an option for a survey in the state of the balance mod but that was only for the people in chat. I still believe UWE needs to actually make the mod noticeable IN GAME using feedback links and polls and advertising to see what features are the most controversial which should be obvious by now but more stats is never bad right? But then again google moderator was shut down and so I get the feeling public outreach is not a priority unless it is to advertise the game and then mod when it is finalized in some sale or whenever the next content patch rolls in.
I don't think anyone is suggesting doing away with the BT entirely. The way I look at it right now something like 80% of the changes are for the better. It's just the other 20% that concerns me, and it's what makes me vocalize my concerns in an attempt to let Sewlek hear that some people disagree with some of his changes.
I can't speak for anyone else but I would bet that even the most vocal dissenters to the mod would be okay with a good number of the changes being added to the game
Sure there are changes that everyone can agree on, but those are mainly the "small tweaks." If Sewlek followed design by committee and removed every change that had people up in arms, then what we have left would just be a fairly uninteresting iterative patch. It's about risk vs reward - in order to really solve the game's more underlying problems, you have to make big changes which will ruffle some feathers. For instance, the armory healing change and the skulk bunnyhopping are two of the biggest things I'm looking forward to from the BT. But those would be the first things to get axed if we followed the common argument that big changes are scary because they might drive people off.
Run PTs, before it gets out that it was all our fault!!
:bz