Balance mod...is this actually being implemented into the vanilla ns2?

jewbearjewbear Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182943Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
edited June 2013 in Competitive Play
Hello all...

So the BT hype has gotten exponentially greater in the past month. This dev's of this game have spent years balancing...and we are extremely close now, yet we want to throw all of this away? I have spent so much time (and not even as long as most players who were in the beta for example) learning the movement physics of this game. Being forced to relearn every aspect of the game, including everything down to movement is extremely frustrating and turns me away from even trying to continue going forward with this game. What would be the point to play now if these kind of changes are going to be put into effect?

I would not be against changes being implemented if they were not so sweeping (having drifters build structures, huge movement changes, and an overall change to the game). This game is not natural selection 1. Balance within an asymmetrical game is almost impossible. You can balance off of competitive games, or you can balance off of public games. You will never achieve a completely 50-50 win rate within pub play and competitive play.

Now if these changes are going to go into the game, you can guarantee that a majority of the competitive players will leave due to the depth of changes being put into the game. I will give the balance mod a fair chance if/when it gets implemented, but I do not want to relearn the entire game.

I know people don't want to hear this, and I know that a lot of people think the same way as me, but they do not want to express it. I am not very good at conveying my thought (be it through talk or text) but I just want to start a discussion on this.

I know the responses I will get...that I haven't been around the balance mod as much as I should...that i'm not giving it a fair chance...or that NS1 had changes as well and everything worked out fine. Once again this is not NS1. I do not need to put more hours into an entire new game that I have already learned previously. It puts me off. I know this will turn into a huge thread with tons of trolls who completely put this post off and call it stupid...but this needs to be said.
«1345

Comments

  • FlipperFlipper Join Date: 2012-08-08 Member: 155120Members
    Does it matter... its so lively anyways.
  • LagLightLagLight Join Date: 2012-03-31 Member: 149708Members
    edited June 2013
    I agree that the BT mods offers a massive list of changes that could make NS2 a totally different game. However I also feel that many of these changes are very rough designs and implementations, and is more about experimenting with possible gameplay mechanics than creating a new finished version of the game.

    I will not be surprised if when it comes to the next major patch day, that only a small number of highly refined and crucial changes actually make it into the Official NS2 version along with some minor changes for underused items and the games overall accessibility. I would think, and I am hoping, that they would try and use as few steps as possible in order to improve the game rather than try and implement a totally new system that could just have as many issues as the current version.

    On a side note: I think that the BT mod should scale back the number of changes loaded onto the mod at any one time, and perform more precise gameplay experiments on particular aspects or changes, while asking the community for more focused feedback in separate UWE created forum threads for individual game elements or topics.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Personally I like the game as it is, and if it is changed too much to be like the BT I MIGHT leave.
  • PaLaGiPaLaGi Join Date: 2008-01-03 Member: 63331Members, Constellation
    Would you rather see the competitive scene die off completely if nothing is done? I would have never imagined top competitive teams and players losing so much interest after just 2 ENSL seasons. I am not a fan of drastic changes either, but you have to admit the meta of this game is extremely stale (and really always has been).

    There are reasons for this, but those dead horses has been beaten since the beta and don't deserve to be brought up here.

    At this point, with such low player counts and players who will never return no matter what you do, I think UWE has decided to just continue to make NS2 a living advertisement to sell/license Spark (ex. Modjam, Biodome map). I'm not sure the actual gameplay (which was such a strength for NS1) will ever get good enough to attract a legit competitive scene.
  • TinCanTinCan Join Date: 2006-12-11 Member: 59010Members
    Make a competitive mod that satisfies the competitive players. Problem solved.
  • jewbearjewbear Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182943Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    TinCan wrote: »
    Make a competitive mod that satisfies the competitive players. Problem solved.
    The game doesn't need a competitive mod...it's fine the way it is

    PaLaGi wrote: »
    Would you rather see the competitive scene die off completely if nothing is done? I would have never imagined top competitive teams and players losing so much interest after just 2 ENSL seasons. I am not a fan of drastic changes either, but you have to admit the meta of this game is extremely stale (and really always has been).

    There are reasons for this, but those dead horses has been beaten since the beta and don't deserve to be brought up here.

    At this point, with such low player counts and players who will never return no matter what you do, I think UWE has decided to just continue to make NS2 a living advertisement to sell/license Spark (ex. Modjam, Biodome map). I'm not sure the actual gameplay (which was such a strength for NS1) will ever get good enough to attract a legit competitive scene.
    I know a lot of people leaving due to the balance mod being implemented...not just because the game is dying.
  • jewbearjewbear Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182943Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    I will give the balance mod a fair chance like I said, and it is starting to grow on me slightly...but so far from what I have seen it will do more harm then good.
  • SyknikSyknik InversionNS2.com Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2064Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    I've been playing it quite a bit lately and though there are definitely still issues with certain aspects of it, the more we play the better the feedback we can give to sewlek. Then he can adjust it with the information that has been given. I hate to say this line since i know most people hate to hear, but most people need to put in more time in the balance mod before they raise their concerns.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2013
    Play the balance mod, offer feedback about what is both good and not good. Posting topics like this will not accomplish what you want, nor will it help get 'your' point across or help the game be improved for all players.

    You are already at a point where many people will quit if the mod gets implemented, or if it doesn't. That's a really poor place to argue from, and your effort would be better spent dissecting the mod and the pro's and con's of the changes
  • TaneTane Join Date: 2004-10-25 Member: 32441Members, Constellation
    edited June 2013
    This forum never let you down! I´m just going saying one thing for sake of the humanity. Stop using the phrase: "This is not NS1". That is not an argument, if something it is a logical fallacy. We all know that we are playing NS2, the title says as much, thanks for giving us this information. Every time I hear that phrase something inside me dies away.
  • jewbearjewbear Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182943Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2013
    Tane wrote: »
    This forums never let you down! I´m just going saying one thing for sake of the humanity. Stop using the phrase: "This is not NS1". That is not an argument, if something it is a logical fallacy. We all know that we playin NS2, the title says as much, thanks for giving us this information. Every time I hear that phrase something inside me dies away.
    I think you are missing the point...for example playing the BT mod earlier I heard people saying, "Oh wow this fade feels just like NS1...I like this!".

    My point being is that we are playing NS2, and the past should be left as the past. Do not look for some sort of nostalgia in past game play mechanics. I hope this doesn't wither you away too much.
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2013
    Meanwhile, outside of the 3 clans world wide that still play vanilla NS2. I don't think any consideration at all should be given to 'competitive' players saying that they'll leave if the game gets improved.
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    It's like you read my mind, Jewbear. Completely agree, I don't really have any desire to have to re-learn everything about this game.
  • TaneTane Join Date: 2004-10-25 Member: 32441Members, Constellation
    edited June 2013
    Nope. Saying “past is past” is just a another way to say the same thing again, without giving any new information to table; in argument theories it is called a tautology. An argument means that you give some reason behind your thesis. However, you are right in one thing; wanting NS2 to just copy NS1 without thinking why is questionable also. Though, we can presume that when someone writes to these forums like that, they are just too lazy give arguments why, because they presume that everybody knows what made NS1 fade a good one. I say NS1 fade is superior to NS2 one BECAUSE it gives more freedom to express your creativity, in other words, more options. Then again, you can ask why this is good? Well, people generally think that more freedom the game has better the game is. Of course there aren´t Objective truths when we talk about values, but I think most of here accept that rewarding creativity is a good thing.
  • GlissGliss Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14800Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester
    edited June 2013
    speaking just for myself the balance mod is a mostly positive change to the stale NS2 gameplay that's been in place basically since release. the core gameplay has not changed at all since the removal of the 2-hive Onos drop. and regardless of whether or not you enjoy the game as it is, I believe it's very difficult to argue that the game has very much merit in terms of gameplay, strategy, and individual skill.

    the balance mod is worked on and constantly tweaked in the way that NS2 should have been (premature release of NS2 is another issue entirely). daily updates and immediate feedback from organized games, and heavy post-game discussion.

    the beta had radically shifting balance from week to week and it had only slightly smaller activity than the current live build. in fact, most of the beta patches were around the same scale of changes as the balance mod. the largest scale change is probably the movement, which isn't even that crazy. I think it's sad that players are shifting the blame to the balance mod, when the reality is much simpler: the engine is molasses and not fun to play in a competitive environment, and that is why many players have stopped playing.
  • GoldenGolden Join Date: 2004-09-01 Member: 31169Members, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    edited June 2013
    jewbear wrote: »
    I think you are missing the point...for example playing the BT mod earlier I heard people saying, "Oh wow this fade feels just like NS1...I like this!".

    My point being is that we are playing NS2, and the past should be left as the past. Do not look for some sort of nostalgia in past game play mechanics. I hope this doesn't wither you away too much.

    I think you may be taking my statement differently than I intended. I did not mean that the BT fade felt exactly like the NS1 fade, I meant that I had to actually consider what I was doing instead of just shadowstep+attack since shadowstep lets you get out of almost anything on the live build.

    EDIT: Fixed the quote.
  • thelawenforcerthelawenforcer Join Date: 2013-02-18 Member: 183176Members
    Jekt wrote: »
    Meanwhile, outside of the 3 clans world wide that still play vanilla NS2. I don't think any consideration at all should be given to 'competitive' players saying that they'll leave if the game gets improved.

    you keep saying this, but yesterday, my team managed to scrim all evening without any problem. there were several other games going on at the same time aswell. so i think you are seriously misrepresenting the state of the community. on the other hand, i dont see much BT activity outside of pubs filled with the very same vets every day.

    @gliss&tane - i dont think anyone argues with general improvement, but rather with the sweeping approach, and with the nature and inspiration for said 'improvements'. some people simply cannot see anything different from NS1 as having any merit. NS2 is different and thats crime enough in their eyes. you also live in a bubble and have no consideration for the needs of players outside of your own tiny community. and like you say, the issue is not so much the content of the game, but the way it runs - which only serves to make the intentions of this mod all the more dubious and seem like a way for a very small, but dedicated and influential group of players to finally get their way when it comes to the gameplay. as for the fade, i personally dont see what you guys are talking about giving the fade more options or making it more creative - nothing fundamental has really changed with how you play fade and if anything, the lack of double jump and inability to chain SS could be argued as removing options just as 'telestep' might give you a new way to engage. its make it like ns1 first, justify later.

    consider this - a small community of teamplay oriented gamers - Tactical Gamers, ran BT mods and were pretty much the only public community I saw give the mod a proper chance etc. they are running a poll on their website: http://www.tacticalgamer.com/natural-selection-general-discussion/193350-keep-balance-test-mod.html about whether to keep it or not. clearly from the comments there are some things they like, but the results speak for themselves really.
  • nSidianSidia Join Date: 2012-08-15 Member: 155651Members
    jewbear wrote: »
    Hello all...

    So the BT hype has gotten exponentially greater in the past month. This dev's of this game have spent years balancing...and we are extremely close now, yet we want to throw all of this away? I have spent so much time (and not even as long as most players who were in the beta for example) learning the movement physics of this game. Being forced to relearn every aspect of the game, including everything down to movement is extremely frustrating and turns me away from even trying to continue going forward with this game. What would be the point to play now if these kind of changes are going to be put into effect?

    I would not be against changes being implemented if they were not so sweeping (having drifters build structures, huge movement changes, and an overall change to the game). This game is not natural selection 1. Balance within an asymmetrical game is almost impossible. You can balance off of competitive games, or you can balance off of public games. You will never achieve a completely 50-50 win rate within pub play and competitive play.

    Now if these changes are going to go into the game, you can guarantee that a majority of the competitive players will leave due to the depth of changes being put into the game. I will give the balance mod a fair chance if/when it gets implemented, but I do not want to relearn the entire game.

    I know people don't want to hear this, and I know that a lot of people think the same way as me, but they do not want to express it. I am not very good at conveying my thought (be it through talk or text) but I just want to start a discussion on this.

    I know the responses I will get...that I haven't been around the balance mod as much as I should...that i'm not giving it a fair chance...or that NS1 had changes as well and everything worked out fine. Once again this is not NS1. I do not need to put more hours into an entire new game that I have already learned previously. It puts me off. I know this will turn into a huge thread with tons of trolls who completely put this post off and call it stupid...but this needs to be said.

    1st of all an asymmetrical game is impossible to balance

    2nd of all a completely 50-50 win rate within pub play and competitive play asymmetrical gameplay or not doesn't mean the game is balanced.

    3rd of all dead game.

  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold
    It is ridiculous to stop playing just because you have to learn new mechanics...
    Are you people 80 years old or just too lazy? Or are you simply afraid of change?

    Pathetic...
  • ObraxisObraxis Subnautica Animator & Generalist, NS2 Person Join Date: 2004-07-24 Member: 30071Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Supporter, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    edited June 2013
    I find it amusing how a lot of the people complaining about the BT Mod, are the same ones complaining about NS2 getting stale.

    You have the opportunity to help shape the future of NS2 with feedback directly to the developer. Grab it with both hands!

    While I don't like everything in BT Mod, it will at least keep NS2 moving and fresh. Most of your skills learned in Vanilla will transfer over to BT Mod. It won't take long to adapt if you're a 'competitive' player.
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    NS2 has so few players that it isn't even tracked by steam player stats anymore. Doing nothing is not an option.

    Will the btmod patch save ns2? Probably not, but it's worth a shot.
  • SyknikSyknik InversionNS2.com Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2064Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    From what I see in that forum post, the people initially didn't like it (big surprise) but after playing it more they tend to enjoy it a lot more (go figure) and it grew on them. Which goes back to the.. give it a shot play it more and you'll begin to like it.
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    edited June 2013
    Once you get past the idea of having to learn new movement, you can really start to see some of the advantages of Balance Mod. A good chunk of the community rejects it for that reason alone.

  • jewbearjewbear Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182943Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Bicsum wrote: »
    It is ridiculous to stop playing just because you have to learn new mechanics...
    Are you people 80 years old or just too lazy? Or are you simply afraid of change?

    Pathetic...

    Laziness has nothing to do with it. This for example is why cod is not a serious comp game...every year a whole new game comes out with a whole new set of things to learn. People who are looking to succeed at a game don't want change, they expect a consistent game in which they can master every aspect of.
  • jewbearjewbear Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182943Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Syknik wrote: »
    From what I see in that forum post, the people initially didn't like it (big surprise) but after playing it more they tend to enjoy it a lot more (go figure) and it grew on them. Which goes back to the.. give it a shot play it more and you'll begin to like it.

    I agree with you here, the more I play it and get used to it, it starts growing on me, but so many people don't want to give it that chance due to other issues in the game that they believe need to be addressed first...
  • SyknikSyknik InversionNS2.com Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2064Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    There are a variety of different programmers at UWE that are working on different things. Sewlek is focused on the gameplay, so that's what he's addressing, Dushan, Max, steve are all working on the other issues that are needing to be addressed, performance, bots, and whatever else. If people are upset because performance is not being addressed, that's not up to the balance mod, that's up to the other programmers who were assigned to work on it. Unless if you are referring to other issues?
  • jewbearjewbear Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182943Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    The point is though that the real reason the game is falling apart is performance. The game did sell extremely well, but of all the people who bought it, most of them did not have an enjoyable time due to the horrible performance.

    I think the point of this thread was actually to try to address that. Balance isn't what is killing this game, and more light needs to be shed on that.

    How long have we had rumors of potential performance patches with our fingers crossed? What if this entire time we were all together working on sewleks performance mod? (don't get me wrong I have a lot of gratitude for the massive amount of hours Andi puts in)
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    .... Really?? Do you not understand even remotely that different coders do different parts of the logic? They are working on performance and it is a real topic that needs to be addressed, but that is by no means a reason to completely ignore the major gameplay flaws, nor is it a reason to have someone spend countless hours a week to find another 0.05% performance increase from optimizing lua code, only to have them change the low level lua handling which completely nullifies all that work.

    If your issue is performance, why make a topic titled as this was, with the tone and direction of the initial post?...
  • jewbearjewbear Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182943Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow

    you keep saying this, but yesterday, my team managed to scrim all evening without any problem. there were several other games going on at the same time aswell. so i think you are seriously misrepresenting the state of the community. on the other hand, i dont see much BT activity outside of pubs filled with the very same vets every day.

    you also live in a bubble and have no consideration for the needs of players outside of your own tiny community. and like you say, the issue is not so much the content of the game, but the way it runs - which only serves to make the intentions of this mod all the more dubious and seem like a way for a very small, but dedicated and influential group of players to finally get their way when it comes to the gameplay.

    Getting a scrim in the NA scene is completely different now then it was 2-3 months ago... There's no way you can argue this.

    As for your opinions on tane and gliss I think you are mistaken. It's these people who have a huge experience base in NS and we should be listening to their ideas mostly. They have been through it all and know what works and what doesn't. There is no way though that the game is going to tailor to only competitive player needs, I think that is just pub player paranoia :p

  • thelawenforcerthelawenforcer Join Date: 2013-02-18 Member: 183176Members
    syknik, i understand that it starts to grow on them after a while - but their feelings are still mixed. the results of the poll are clear though - 87% want the server to go back to vanilla.

    anyway, i think alot of the people here are missing the wider point - outside of the competitive community (where the feelings are very mixed at best) there is no real support for many of the changes.

    @obraxis "You have the opportunity to help shape the future of NS2 with feedback directly to the developer. Grab it with both hands!"

    thats like letting the rest pick the colour of the curtains while the ns1 community designs the floorplan.
Sign In or Register to comment.