Shotgun

kespec · May 2013

I want to say some things about shotgun.

1. Shotgun is an outright broken balance tool. why?

if this game was a full rts, with npc units. then i would say nothing about it. it is perfectly countering skulks, working as intended. but the problem rises when we count the fact that the units are actually player controlled, players who get frustrated against an unstoppable killing machine. besides no one likes to get one shotted in any game, it is just a fact; you get one shotted; you rage doesn't matter how hard you try to hide your feelings.. most of the people won't just say "Shotgun beats skulk, its alright to get oblirated, because balance demands it", rest will just pretend it to be a okey situation.

simple example to show the devastating effects of such rock, paper sci game is world of warcraft. Warlock class had been the least represented class, making around 6% of the total population untill certain point. how lucky i am, i have been a warlock starting from vanilla. as a destruction, getting one shotted by the most of the classes especially rogue. you can't imagine my rage, lol i feared my hairs turn white.

i gave a 3 months break to natural selection, and after my return. only thing that got my attention was the godly shotgunners, even the noobest player is an incredibly tough target. slightest mistake gets you one shotted, there is just no way to counter shotgun as a skulk with brain involved - do your best evasive manevuer and cross for your fingers for your enemy to miss. lol this is just silly.

as a marine, i really don't find shotgun enjoyable it certainly fetches some frag but i am a man of challenge i don't prefer shotgun.

2. shotgun requires zero skill; yep i declare it requires zero skill when you have an insane rig and a decent ping. immense dps, immense reliability

3. why shotgun is a jack of all trades? what about the other weapons?

destroying skulks- check
give fear even to the most skilled fade - check
destroy lerks at certain range - check
destroy in numbers onos - check

destroy structres - check

shotgun simply takes the role of multipurpose ass-whooping machine. what about flamethrower or grenade launcher?, can't even see those weapons researched anymore. why the hell shotgun can even counter even fades? there is a possibility that a decent shotguner can destroy a decent fade in a particular situation. this is the best case scenario because marines usually move with their team mates, this is what this game is all about..

how to adress 1) give aliens a researchable active trait, that will harden skin to sustain certain amount of damage after used. place it in crag tier along with carapace and shell. like damage sustained 200 damage, cooldown 30 secs lasts 1-3-5 seconds or rather like a nano-shield like ability that lasts shorter. certain lifeforms like onos will surely use carapace yet again, it will add variety new ways of gameplay.
how to adress 2) make 1) real or nerf the living goo out of shotgun.
How to adress 3) make 1) real and give other weapons more clear role or nerf shotgun.

i wish to add more but, my time is limited.

Thank you for reading.

Chizzler · May 2013

Unless marines rush shotguns at the expense of other upgrades, they should be coming out roughly the same time as lerks...The later the match goes on, the less effective the skulk is at killing marines, and they're supposed to take a support role to the higher lifeforms. Equally, although they can 1 shot skulks, it has to be a near perfect shot at point blank range...given the low rate of fire, this does require skill to pull off. They also have a very long reload time, meaning that if you run dry whilst in combat, there's a good chance you'll die.

As a skulk, I don't consider them inherently more dangerous than the rifle, and given they cost P.Res, would always rather go up against a shotgun. Many players will fire as frequently as possible in combat with the shotgun, making it very easy to predict when the next shot is coming and avoid it or put some distance between you and the marine so your not 1 shotted. After firing there is a brief period for you to bite at them before they can shoot again, and they will almost always shoot at the soonest opportunity. Sure, a high level player is extremely dangerous with a shotgun, but the same is true for the rifle.

As a lerk, your tactics need to change when shotguns come out. You can't fly into 2-3 marines and expect to survive. If they know where you are, you should be spiking them from distance, chipping their health down for your teammates and stopping them progressing through doorways etc. You should also look to ambush marines from behind with a quick bite before escaping, waiting for the poison to take affect, then attacking again. The second your hit with a solid shot, get out and heal up. Lerks are in my opinion, one of the strongest lifeforms due to the timing they come out and their ability to attack at range, safe from shotguns. For this lifeform a high level player with a rifle is far more dangerous than one with a shotgun if you're playing the lerk right.

Fades can take 2 perfect shots (and then some) from a shotgun before going down. Going down to a single shotgun wielding marine here is unlikely, and a pretty big mistake must have been made from the fade. If engaging 2 marines, care should be taken to be dodging in and out of combat stopping them getting a good aim on you and putting some distance between you and them as they fire so they can't get that maximum damage shot.
Anything above 2 marines and the fade should not be engaging alone. Hit and run tactics can be used to dish out some damage to the guy at the back but you shouldn't be hanging around long enough for the others to start shooting at you

Onos. It's ridiculous to say the shotgun is overpowered for taking these down. they can take a substantial amount of damage, and the rifle puts out a higher dps than the shotgun! Marines in groups are dangerous to all lifeforms, the Onos should be no exception. the shotgun is not a counter to the onos, a jetpack is.

Buildings. Without doing the maths, I can tell you that a single marine has to unload more than a clip into a harvester (at close range) to kill it. Skilled players don't pump all 8 shots in one go, instead reloading part way through the clip in case they're attacked. It'll take about 30-45seconds (guesstimate) for a single marine to take it out with a shotgun, a similar rate to which a single skulk will take out an extractor...the difference being, the marine has invested 20 P.res to do so. he must also get close the the harvester which is usually placed in an area with plenty of cover nearby for ambushing skulks. There are situations where attacking structures at range with the rifle is much more effective, safer and free! (though the comm may need to drop an ammo pack).

My only gripe with the shotgun is the inconsistency in damage. I could shoot an enemy at near point blank range and do 200dmg, but another time, at the same distance, only do 14-23. Unfortunately, it's usually the latter.

Edit: Note to other forum users, kespec's postt below is not directed at this post (at least I don't think it is) but at a post by someone else that has since been removed by the moderators.

kespec · May 2013

did you even read?

and whats up with your attitude

|strofix| · May 2013

The best advice is not to fight a marine if he has a shotgun.

Basically, if you are a fade, or a Lerk, you do not take on shotgun marines in melee without expecting to die. What this means is that, the best counter to shotgun marines is actually the Onos, and the skulk, strangely. Skulks are free and therefore are the preferable option, unfortunately, this is an economic counter, but not a fun counter. You are expected to throw yourself at marines in order to save the higher lifeforms, but then you spend an incredibly long time waiting to respawn and generally not having much fun. It is indeed quite a problem.

I think the primary issue here is repetition. In NS1, the concept that you would rush a shotgunner, at some location on the map, be one shot, respawn, and then be one shot by that same shotgunner within like a minute of play, was unheard of. Encounters were spread out and infrequent, so typically whoever died lost that encounter, and then they got to go on with their business. In NS2, however, you can be killed by the same shotgunner like upwards of 3 times in a minute, because encounters are so frequent and close together.

kespec · May 2013

Chizzler said:

Unless marines rush shotguns at the expense of other upgrades, they should be coming out roughly the same time as lerks...The later the match goes on, the less effective the skulk is at killing marines, and they're supposed to take a support role to the higher lifeforms. Equally, although they can 1 shot skulks, it has to be a near perfect shot at point blank range...given the low rate of fire, this does require skill to pull off. They also have a very long reload time, meaning that if you run dry whilst in combat, there's a good chance you'll die.

As a skulk, I don't consider them inherently more dangerous than the rifle, and given they cost P.Res, would always rather go up against a shotgun. Many players will fire as frequently as possible in combat with the shotgun, making it very easy to predict when the next shot is coming and avoid it or put some distance between you and the marine so your not 1 shotted. After firing there is a brief period for you to bite at them before they can shoot again, and they will almost always shoot at the soonest opportunity. Sure, a high level player is extremely dangerous with a shotgun, but the same is true for the rifle.

As a lerk, your tactics need to change when shotguns come out. You can't fly into 2-3 marines and expect to survive. If they know where you are, you should be spiking them from distance, chipping their health down for your teammates and stopping them progressing through doorways etc. You should also look to ambush marines from behind with a quick bite before escaping, waiting for the poison to take affect, then attacking again. The second your hit with a solid shot, get out and heal up. Lerks are in my opinion, one of the strongest lifeforms due to the timing they come out and their ability to attack at range, safe from shotguns. For this lifeform a high level player with a rifle is far more dangerous than one with a shotgun if you're playing the lerk right.

Fades can take 2 perfect shots (and then some) from a shotgun before going down. Going down to a single shotgun wielding marine here is unlikely, and a pretty big mistake must have been made from the fade. If engaging 2 marines, care should be taken to be dodging in and out of combat stopping them getting a good aim on you and putting some distance between you and them as they fire so they can't get that maximum damage shot.
Anything above 2 marines and the fade should not be engaging alone. Hit and run tactics can be used to dish out some damage to the guy at the back but you shouldn't be hanging around long enough for the others to start shooting at you

Onos. It's ridiculous to say the shotgun is overpowered for taking these down. they can take a substantial amount of damage, and the rifle puts out a higher dps than the shotgun! Marines in groups are dangerous to all lifeforms, the Onos should be no exception. the shotgun is not a counter to the onos, a jetpack is.

Buildings. Without doing the maths, I can tell you that a single marine has to unload more than a clip into a harvester (at close range) to kill it. Skilled players don't pump all 8 shots in one go, instead reloading part way through the clip in case they're attacked. It'll take about 30-45seconds (guesstimate) for a single marine to take it out with a shotgun, a similar rate to which a single skulk will take out an extractor...the difference being, the marine has invested 20 P.res to do so. he must also get close the the harvester which is usually placed in an area with plenty of cover nearby for ambushing skulks. There are situations where attacking structures at range with the rifle is much more effective, safer and free! (though the comm may need to drop an ammo pack).

My only gripe with the shotgun is the inconsistency in damage. I could shoot an enemy at near point blank range and do 200dmg, but another time, at the same distance, only do 14-23. Unfortunately, it's usually the latter.

you wrote cool things but you are missing the point i make.

i will simplify it so people actually read.

1. shotgun is a broken balance tool. in a multiplayer game, no one must be get one shotted by any freaking means. its total frustration, poor design, poor mechanic. no offense, dont get me wrong but not all of the player base are hardcore fanboys like you are. it kills all the fun, and people play this game for FUN, and when they don't find FUN they quit.

2. shotgun is stealing the role of other weapons making them useless. we have 2 weapon option that are just useless. grenade launcher is HARD COUNTERED by whip, the way this weapon countered is just silly. and flamethrowers, i sometimes forget they are in the game.

3. shotgun requires zero skill, there is just not explaining it.

Chizzler · May 2013

I don't believe I missed the point.

1. One shot weapons have existed in multiplayer games since Doom. Some examples Include;
BFG (Doom/Quake) Energy Sword (Halo) Gravity Hammer (Halo) Sniper Rifles (Call Of Duty/Counter Strike/ Almost any FPS) Knife (Call Of Duty) Rocket Launcher (Call Of Duty) Chainsaw (Gears of War) Redeemer (Unreal Tournament)
These are by no means games exclusive to "hardcore fanboys". It is frankly, your opinion that one shot weapons shouldn't exist, and it evidently isn't an opinion shared by most game developers throughout history.

2. I have given specific examples that the shotgun does not make other weapons useless. The rifle in particular has uses against Lerks, hitting buildings from range, doing more DPS to onos etc. I agree that currently the grenade launcher and flamethrower are not utilised as much as they could be, but they have their uses. try hopping into a match on the Combat mod and you'll quickly see grenades being used to dish out insane damage to the hive and surrounding lifeforms. In Vanilla NS2 though, it's a substantial P.Res investment and diminishes your ability to defend yourself in combat. The flamethrower has a very specific purpose, and that is to stop the energy regeneration abilities of aliens. I have lost fades due to being on fire and not having the energy to escape, so it is by no means useless. It doesn't give out a lot of DPS though, so most players avoid them.

3. Shotguns require skill. Low rate of fire, long reload time, minimal effective range. It seems any explanation I can give will be ignored. An example of a true skilless weapon can be found in Call Of Duty. The akimbo machine pistols, killstreak rewards and the Nuke.

dragonmith · May 2013

Railgun Exo's? you might say they are a p.res investment, but so is a shotgun. For 20 res I think the shotgun is very comfortable in value for money.

ezay · May 2013

You're wrong on about everything you said. I don't feel like justifying because just logging in the game would show you why you're wrong.

Roobubba · May 2013

I read your post, and your second post, and I completely agree with what Chizzler has said.

Lerk spikes are devastating against shotgunners, as is teamwork. The DPS on the rifle is actually higher than the shotgun, and several times I've been able to kill 3 incoming skulks with the rifle in 1 clip, where one slight mistake with the shotgun would have got me dead instantly. Don't get me wrong, the shotgun is an amazing weapon, but it costs 20 res. I can't tell you how often I've run out of res through dropped shotguns that I've not been able to save. As an onos, I'd rather the marines have shotguns than rifles. Rifles keep putting out max damage as you run away, and it takes scarily few clips to kill an onos. Again, teamwork is key.

To say shotgun requires zero skill is just plain wrong. If you're not on target, you don't get the 1-shot kill. If you're 1v1 with a skulk and miss once or twice, you're toast.

The counter to a death-ball of 5 marines with shotguns?

a) make them beacon elsewhere or

b) don't let them get so much res in the first place...

However, I do somewhat agree that flamethrowers and grenade launchers need a little bit of tweaking to increase their usefulness, although that's not an issue with the shotgun itself.

re: 1 shotting: Chizzler is bang on. Almost any gun in CS can 1-shot with a head shot... I'm not telling you to like it, but there are plenty of us who don't mind that game mechanic, and it has worked successfully for what, 2 decades at least?

|strofix| · May 2013

Chizzler said:

I don't believe I missed the point.

1. One shot weapons have existed in multiplayer games since Doom. Some examples Include;
BFG (Doom/Quake) Energy Sword (Halo) Gravity Hammer (Halo) Sniper Rifles (Call Of Duty/Counter Strike/ Almost any FPS) Knife (Call Of Duty) Rocket Launcher (Call Of Duty) Chainsaw (Gears of War) Redeemer (Unreal Tournament)
These are by no means games exclusive to "hardcore fanboys". It is frankly, your opinion that one shot weapons shouldn't exist, and it evidently isn't an opinion shared by most game developers throughout history.

3. Shotguns require skill. Low rate of fire, long reload time, minimal effective range. It seems any explanation I can give will be ignored. An example of a true skilless weapon can be found in Call Of Duty. The akimbo machine pistols, killstreak rewards and the Nuke.

1. Shotguns in those games come with a distinct disadvantage. Try running around with nothing but a shotgun in a game like BF3. You will distinctly feel underpowered and vulnerable. In fact, using said weapons effectively require that you radically adjust your play style, and choose your fights incredibly carefully. This is because, in a game where nearly every player has an effective range of upwards of 100m, your 20m effective range cripples you.

This disadvantage does not exist in any way, shape or form in NS. The only game that comes close to a similar situation is L4D. The difference there is that almost any gun will kill you instantly, shotgun or otherwise. And, also, shotguns were considered pretty damn strong in that game too.

3.Does the shotgun unambiguously require more skill than any other weapon in NS2? Then why does it potentially offer more reward?

KwisatzHaderach · May 2013

kespec said:

destroy structres - check

shotgun simply takes the role of multipurpose ass-whooping machine. what about flamethrower or grenade launcher?, can't even see those weapons researched anymore.

I agree with this (and only this). If you ask me, SG does way too much damage to structures AND players. Nerfing structural damage would make FT and GL much more viable. As it stands SG is just too powerfull and versatile for its price.

edit: what the hell happened to the "quote" function? can't post outside of the qoute?

Chizzler · May 2013

|strofix| said:

Chizzler said:

I don't believe I missed the point.

1. One shot weapons have existed in multiplayer games since Doom. Some examples Include;
BFG (Doom/Quake) Energy Sword (Halo) Gravity Hammer (Halo) Sniper Rifles (Call Of Duty/Counter Strike/ Almost any FPS) Knife (Call Of Duty) Rocket Launcher (Call Of Duty) Chainsaw (Gears of War) Redeemer (Unreal Tournament)
These are by no means games exclusive to "hardcore fanboys". It is frankly, your opinion that one shot weapons shouldn't exist, and it evidently isn't an opinion shared by most game developers throughout history.

3. Shotguns require skill. Low rate of fire, long reload time, minimal effective range. It seems any explanation I can give will be ignored. An example of a true skilless weapon can be found in Call Of Duty. The akimbo machine pistols, killstreak rewards and the Nuke.

1. Shotguns in those games come with a distinct disadvantage. Try running around with nothing but a shotgun in a game like BF3. You will distinctly feel underpowered and vulnerable. In fact, using said weapons effectively require that you radically adjust your play style, and choose your fights incredibly carefully. This is because, in a game where nearly every player has an effective range of upwards of 100m, your 20m effective range cripples you.
This disadvantage does not exist in any way, shape or form in NS. The only game that comes close to a similar situation is L4D. The difference there is that almost any gun will kill you instantly, shotgun or otherwise. And, also, shotguns were considered pretty damn strong in that game too.

3.Does the shotgun unambiguously require more skill than any other weapon in NS2? Then why does it potentially offer more reward?

Firstly, in none of the examples given did i mention a shotgun. Secondly, the shotgun in battlefield 3 is a poor example of a 1 hit weapon (although it is one). Do you feel that vulnerable running around with a sniper rifle in that game, which is also a 1 hit kill weapon and can do so at any range?
The shotgun in NS2 does requires different play styles than other weapons;
you must engage at closer range
each shot has a greater value...a missed shot could cost you much more than a missed bullet from the rifle.
It costs P.Res and as such you must take care to minimize the risk of it being lost. I tend to be slightly less aggressive (unless jetpacks are researched).
It's a twitch based weapon unlike the rifle which is tracking based, the flamethrower & grenade launcher are both area of effect weapons.

The shotgun requires different skills than other weapons, not necessarily more. A reason why it offers a greater potential reward is simple. You've invested P.Res into that weapon. It also has risks associated with it, as RooBubba stated, try taking down 3 skulks coming at you with a shotgun...It's easier to do so with the rifle. Assuming perfect accuracy, you still need to wait till they are in close range when using the shotgun, and the slow rate of fire means that you can't 1 hit all 3 before they're on you. A rifle could eliminate all 3 before they're even close, likewise with a perfectly aimed grenade.

hakenspit · May 2013

Roobubba said:

I read your post, and your second post, and I completely agree with what Chizzler has said.

Lerk spikes are devastating against shotgunners, as is teamwork. The DPS on the rifle is actually higher than the shotgun, and several times I've been able to kill 3 incoming skulks with the rifle in 1 clip, where one slight mistake with the shotgun would have got me dead instantly. Don't get me wrong, the shotgun is an amazing weapon, but it costs 20 res. I can't tell you how often I've run out of res through dropped shotguns that I've not been able to save. As an onos, I'd rather the marines have shotguns than rifles. Rifles keep putting out max damage as you run away, and it takes scarily few clips to kill an onos. Again, teamwork is key.

To say shotgun requires zero skill is just plain wrong. If you're not on target, you don't get the 1-shot kill. If you're 1v1 with a skulk and miss once or twice, you're toast.

The counter to a death-ball of 5 marines with shotguns?
a) make them beacon elsewhere or
b) don't let them get so much res in the first place...

However, I do somewhat agree that flamethrowers and grenade launchers need a little bit of tweaking to increase their usefulness, although that's not an issue with the shotgun itself.

re: 1 shotting: Chizzler is bang on. Almost any gun in CS can 1-shot with a head shot... I'm not telling you to like it, but there are plenty of us who don't mind that game mechanic, and it has worked successfully for what, 2 decades at least?

Wait so the counter to 5 marines with SG...is to not let them get that much res?
Cmon roo...you are having a lend there surely...the Onos got nerfed despite costing 2 times the cost of a SG and can't 1 shot anything.

The SG has been an issue from early beta days when it was the only advanced weapon...that it could only 1 shot a skulk was seen as balanced...as you needed 2 to kill a lerk and 3 to kill a fade...that was when the hit pattern was random.
Now its been fixed to improve accuracy....damage increased so it now 1 shots lerks (30 res investment) and 2 shots fades (50 res investement).
Shotguns can be picked up and shared within a team...alien lifeforms cant.

SG's are OP'd...not because of the fact they 1 shot skulks...but that they can 1 shot lerks....and 2 shot fades.
Aliens have nothing that can kill a marine in 1 hit (despite needing to get into melee for almost every attack they have).

We continue to have the issue of aliens not scaling in their attacks...and marines getting an easier time as the game goes on.
The SG is a great example of this....and running the whole "you let them get too much res" or "just dont engage them" are terrible throw away comments.

The SG I think simply needs a damage reduction...or certain aliens need a buff...a 30 res lifeform dying to 1 shot is still a blight on the game.

Khaze · May 2013

At 20 pres the shotgun should be more viable than the rifle. But even so, when you're standing in a room with the corpses of two skulks and a lerk littered about you, you can't help but feel that something is amiss.

Or hell, sometimes even the corpses of a fade and some more.

Roobubba · May 2013

@Hakenspit

I gave that as one example, by no means a comprehensive list of counters. 5 marines with shotguns is, after all, 100 pres + 20 tres investment.

More importantly, the shotgun cannot 1 shot a lerk (it's 1 + a bit) or 2 shot a fade (it's 2 + a bit). In practice, teamwork means someone else has already put in a couple of lmg shots on the lerk/fade, most likely, but in and of itself, it's NOT a 1 shot kill on anything other than the skulk.

(edit for the pedants: assuming carapace and level 3 weapons upgrade).

Fule · May 2013

*snip* No need for inciting remarks. - Ironhorse *

Good skulks will ambush the shotgunner.

Good lerks will spike you to death.

Good fades will kill you no matter what 1 on 1.

DC_Darkling · May 2013

Shotgun is a close range weapon most affective and close to limited range.
Yes a alien must get in close to limited range (minus lerk spikes).

I still do not see a true problem. If you sacrifice 2 skulks to kill a shotgunner, you won a victory there on a res basis.
Also so many games have a instant shot death if you screwup. Never been a real player.
Halflife weapons come to mind.

|strofix| · May 2013

Everyone stating the 20 pres cost as a reason why the shotgun does what it does is missing the point completely.

The OP clearly stated that, from an economic point of view, the shotgun is fine. In terms of straight RTS, you spend cash on a weapon, and it counters enemy units. That is fine. However, this isn't straight RTS, and the units being countered are actual players. If you put the best skulk player on earth against the best marine shotgun player on earth, that skulk players is going to die every single time, over and over again.

Attack with 2 skulks? What if they have 2 shotguns?

Attack with 3 skulks? What if they have 2 shotguns?

Attack with 4 skulks, what if they have 2 shotguns?

At equal skill levels, 2 shotgunners will pretty much take any number of skulks, unless you are playing on a retarded 12v12 server but who cares about those.

Let me be clear. I don't find the fact that shotguns very easily kill skulks to be an issue. It was no different in NS1, and it was just as annoying. See, in a plain RTS, what you would do when you saw a bunch of units that counter your units coming, is you would run away. You would run far far away to a location where you have the advantage. And in NS1, that is exactly what you would do a lot of the time.

In NS2, you cannot run. In NS2, what has essentially been done, is the skulk and the shotgun marine have been locked in a 2x2 room, and the skulk has been told to make a choice. But, of course, there isn't one. Your only option is to run head long into the shotguns barrel, and hope for the best. This is the main issue here in my opinion.

When I run into a marine with a shotgun in the middle of nowhere, I retreat. It isn't worth the almost insured death. However, 5-6 minutes into the game, the middle of nowhere doesn't exist, and if it does, there sure as hell aren't any competent marines there. They are all in high priority, high threat locations, and you have to engage. And death is no less sure.

Chizzler · May 2013

Strofix,
Your opening paragraph can be disregarded as you specifically state that you do not find the fact shotguns very easily killing skulks to be an issue (which is what the OP has issue with, amongst other things)

On to the second paragraph:
running head long into a shotgun barrel is never the only option. It is also usually the worst option. Alien strategy is centered around ambushing, hit and run attacks and high mobility not head on attacks

You should not always retreat when you see a shotgun. Depending on the situation, you have a chance to remove that 20P.res investment from the map indefinitely. by running away, that marine is being allowed to continue to push forward. Even if you die engaging him, you should have done some damage (assuming you're not just running head first towards him) which either leaves him weakened, or forces him to retreat to reheal and resupply. It all depends on the situation.

at 5-6 minutes into the match, Lerks should be on the field to tip the balance of engagements

If marines are in a threatening location on the map you do not necessarily have to engage them there. If it's an engagement you can win, sure. Otherwise, you may be better hitting them elsewhere, forcing a beacon or doing equal or greater damage to the marine bases...prehaps you just need to slow them down for 30seconds whilst you wait for res to come in so players can evolve into higher lifeforms. There are always options beyond rushing into certain death

I honestly thought that given your join date, you'd have played enough NS2 by this point to know better than to think running head first into shotgunners or running away are your only options. Look at the situation you are in personally and as a team and make a decision as to the best course of action.

There is no way I can tell you what options are available or what you should do in every given situation. What makes this game so great is that every situation is different and there are different options available to deal with them. Ultimately the match is decided by player skill and the decisions made by the players and team to deal with the positions they find themselves in throughout the game.

Paajtor · May 2013

The only problem I have with the shotgun, is that the reload sequence/animation can be interrupted at any time, to immeadiatly fire a shot as long as there was at least 1 round left in the weapon.

|strofix| · May 2013

Chizzler said:

Strofix,
Your opening paragraph can be disregarded as you specifically state that you do not find the fact shotguns very easily killing skulks to be an issue.

On to the second paragraph:
running head long into a shotgun barrel is never the only option. It is also the worst option. Alien strategy is centered around ambushing, hit and run attacks and high mobility not head on attacks

You should not always retreat when you see a shotgun. Depending on the situation, you have a chance to remove that 20P.res investment from the map indefinitely. by running away, that marine is being allowed to continue to push forward. Even if you die engaging him, you should have done some damage (assuming you're not just running head first towards him) which either leaves him weakened, or forces him to retreat to reheal and resupply. It all depends on the situation.

at 5-6 minutes into the match, Lerks should be on the field to tip the balance of engagements

If marines are in a threatening location on the map you do not necessarily have to engage them there. If it's an engagement you can win, sure. Otherwise, you may be better hitting them elsewhere, forcing a beacon or doing equal or greater damage to the marine bases...prehaps you just need to slow them down for 30seconds whilst you wait for res to come in so players can evolve into higher lifeforms. There are always options beyond rushing into certain death

I honestly thought that given your join date, you'd have played enough NS2 by this point to know better than to run head first into shotgunners or run away. Look at the situation you are in personally and as a team and make a decision as to the best course of action.

You're playing in an ideal world. One in which the only tactical thinkers are on your team. One where shotgunners meander around without purpose. If one accidentally strays too close to your hive room, you just poke a power node somewhere and he instantly is sent into a tizzy, returning at once to base.

What if the marines actually know what they are doing? What if they have shotguns, and are specifically walking directly to your hive, killing everything on the way. Keep in mind, that according to you, you cannot engage them. Additionally, if they make it to your hive room, they will destroy the hive in about 15 seconds. If you hit their base, around 2 marines will probably be able to stop you dead in you tracks, because grouping skulks are an easy target. If they don't stop you, and theres no phase gate, and there aren't enough IPs, and there are no turrets, and there are no mines, and the commander doesn't get out... they just beacon, and they don't lose a thing.

Does this mean the shotgun march cannot be stopped? No, it doesn't mean that. How do you stop it? Through attrition.

You just throw skulks at them. Over and over again, never stopping. Skulks are free after all, so who cares right? Shotguns cost pres, so just keep throwing those skulks at them. 5 skulk deaths for every one marine, who cares, economically you still win.

Ye, bot those skulk are players, and they spend the majority of their play time waiting to respawn.

Fun,

Chizzler · May 2013

|strofix| said:

Chizzler said:

Strofix,
Your opening paragraph can be disregarded as you specifically state that you do not find the fact shotguns very easily killing skulks to be an issue.

On to the second paragraph:
running head long into a shotgun barrel is never the only option. It is also the worst option. Alien strategy is centered around ambushing, hit and run attacks and high mobility not head on attacks

You should not always retreat when you see a shotgun. Depending on the situation, you have a chance to remove that 20P.res investment from the map indefinitely. by running away, that marine is being allowed to continue to push forward. Even if you die engaging him, you should have done some damage (assuming you're not just running head first towards him) which either leaves him weakened, or forces him to retreat to reheal and resupply. It all depends on the situation.

at 5-6 minutes into the match, Lerks should be on the field to tip the balance of engagements

If marines are in a threatening location on the map you do not necessarily have to engage them there. If it's an engagement you can win, sure. Otherwise, you may be better hitting them elsewhere, forcing a beacon or doing equal or greater damage to the marine bases...prehaps you just need to slow them down for 30seconds whilst you wait for res to come in so players can evolve into higher lifeforms. There are always options beyond rushing into certain death

I honestly thought that given your join date, you'd have played enough NS2 by this point to know better than to run head first into shotgunners or run away. Look at the situation you are in personally and as a team and make a decision as to the best course of action.

You're playing in an ideal world. One in which the only tactical thinkers are on your team. One where shotgunners meander around without purpose. If one accidentally strays too close to your hive room, you just poke a power node somewhere and he instantly is sent into a tizzy, returning at once to base.

What if the marines actually know what they are doing? What if they have shotguns, and are specifically walking directly to your hive, killing everything on the way. Keep in mind, that according to you, you cannot engage them. Additionally, if they make it to your hive room, they will destroy the hive in about 15 seconds. If you hit their base, around 2 marines will probably be able to stop you dead in you tracks, because grouping skulks are an easy target. If they don't stop you, and theres no phase gate, and there aren't enough IPs, and there are no turrets, and there are no mines, and the commander doesn't get out... they just beacon, and they don't lose a thing.

Does this mean the shotgun march cannot be stopped? No, it doesn't mean that. How do you stop it? Through attrition.
You just throw skulks at them. Over and over again, never stopping. Skulks are free after all, so who cares right? Shotguns cost pres, so just keep throwing those skulks at them. 5 skulk deaths for every one marine, who cares, economically you still win.
Ye, bot those skulk are players, and they spend the majority of their play time waiting to respawn.
Fun,

Please point out where in my post did i say you cannot engage marines shot-gunners heading to your hive. I stated that you do not necessarily have to engage them. If it's an engagement you can't win, and there is no benefit in throwing your life away trying (winning through attrition is an option and would remove those shotguns so there could be a benefit to doing so...again, it depends on the situation), why would you take that action? If they've sent enough marines in one group that your aliens can't deal with them, there is either a lack of communication and coordination on the side of the aliens, or there's enough marines there that there can't be enough elsewhere to deal with a co-ordinated counter-attack

Assuming a 9v9 match, it's going to take 5 marines as a minimum heading towards the hive for me to decide that a co-ordinated attack on them from the alien team is a poor option (keep in mind, that'd be 100p.res invested you have the chance to eliminate by killing the threat). This would leave 4 marines maximum to defend their base (assuming the comm would leave the chair). If 8 aliens lose to those 4 marines, then too bad, you got outplayed..If not you've successfully forced a beacon (10T.res) or wiped out their defence and can start wrecking the base

p.s. Please revisit my previous post as some edits have been made to expand on what i was saying.

Roobubba · May 2013

|strofix| said:

Chizzler said:

Strofix,
Your opening paragraph can be disregarded as you specifically state that you do not find the fact shotguns very easily killing skulks to be an issue.

On to the second paragraph:
running head long into a shotgun barrel is never the only option. It is also the worst option. Alien strategy is centered around ambushing, hit and run attacks and high mobility not head on attacks

You should not always retreat when you see a shotgun. Depending on the situation, you have a chance to remove that 20P.res investment from the map indefinitely. by running away, that marine is being allowed to continue to push forward. Even if you die engaging him, you should have done some damage (assuming you're not just running head first towards him) which either leaves him weakened, or forces him to retreat to reheal and resupply. It all depends on the situation.

at 5-6 minutes into the match, Lerks should be on the field to tip the balance of engagements

If marines are in a threatening location on the map you do not necessarily have to engage them there. If it's an engagement you can win, sure. Otherwise, you may be better hitting them elsewhere, forcing a beacon or doing equal or greater damage to the marine bases...prehaps you just need to slow them down for 30seconds whilst you wait for res to come in so players can evolve into higher lifeforms. There are always options beyond rushing into certain death

I honestly thought that given your join date, you'd have played enough NS2 by this point to know better than to run head first into shotgunners or run away. Look at the situation you are in personally and as a team and make a decision as to the best course of action.

You're playing in an ideal world. One in which the only tactical thinkers are on your team. One where shotgunners meander around without purpose. If one accidentally strays too close to your hive room, you just poke a power node somewhere and he instantly is sent into a tizzy, returning at once to base.

What if the marines actually know what they are doing? What if they have shotguns, and are specifically walking directly to your hive, killing everything on the way. Keep in mind, that according to you, you cannot engage them. Additionally, if they make it to your hive room, they will destroy the hive in about 15 seconds. If you hit their base, around 2 marines will probably be able to stop you dead in you tracks, because grouping skulks are an easy target. If they don't stop you, and theres no phase gate, and there aren't enough IPs, and there are no turrets, and there are no mines, and the commander doesn't get out... they just beacon, and they don't lose a thing.

Does this mean the shotgun march cannot be stopped? No, it doesn't mean that. How do you stop it? Through attrition.
You just throw skulks at them. Over and over again, never stopping. Skulks are free after all, so who cares right? Shotguns cost pres, so just keep throwing those skulks at them. 5 skulk deaths for every one marine, who cares, economically you still win.
Ye, bot those skulk are players, and they spend the majority of their play time waiting to respawn.
Fun,

I was going to make this same point neatly to your post above, but it will do here nicely.

What you described is NOT equal skill aliens vs marines. What you describe is in fact one or more very, very good marines against a team of average skulks with no pros there at all.

The same argument goes for the railgun exo. A good railgunner can pop skulks, lerks, gorges and fades all day long, unless they work as a team to get the exo (or bring an onos into the mix). The same goes for a fade. Against any halfway decent fade, you have to work as a team, trap them somewhere/cut off the escape, gang up, ambush, or good old-fashioned ball-of-death 5 shotgun marines and hope he engages (which might negate the assumption made about the fade, but I digress).

It's no good arguing that a great shotgunner is hard to kill, therefore nerf the shotgun.

to quote (hate this new forum mode...!): "At equal skill levels, 2 shotgunners will pretty much take any number of skulks" No, sorry that's ridiculous. Take it to the extreme to see why: at top tier clan level (or division 2, or further down, you get the idea), marines would win 100% of games. Research shotguns, 2 marines go one way, 2 go the other, 1 help defend with the comm, unbeatable. I'm sorry, but your argument is patently wrong, and you could extend my example here to ANY level of play and see the same result. IF the marine with the shotty is great and the aliens aren't as good, yes, he will win almost all of the engagements. That's not a fault of the shotgun, it's a problem with the teams not being balanced and/or aliens not coordinating to take down the really hot marine player...

Ricez · May 2013

I actually think shotgun is really awful compared to NS1.

The only thing SG is good for is killing lerks or skulks that attack you or are in the small zone around you. It sucks for killing anything that's at a moderate distance; there's no point in shooting at something mid-distance away because by the time you go for a second shot the skulk or lerk will be too close to get a good shot.

You get 1 or maybe 2 chances to hit something that's in the perfect range to do any damage.

You are not always shooting at things that are trying to kill you, what if you want to shoot the lerk across the other side of the room? or the skulk in the vent? SG is useless, LMG would have done more damage.

If you are able to take fights in the correct areas, wait for the alien to be in the perfect range AND hit every time, it can seem overpowered. The vast majority of situations and players can't do this and most of the time I actually think shotgun isn't that great.

Howser · May 2013

I don't think SG's op per se, but I agree with two of the suggestions you make; buff the flamer and grenade so they're more effective as the support weapons they're intended to be and thus increase the effectiveness of teamwork (as they're pretty dreadful for combat. Also the counter trait is a good idea perhaps some sort of shell/skin that gives you a one hit protection before it falls off, essentially removing the one shot kill nature of the rail and shotty.

I'd also like to see more hand held guns that fill more varied interesting rolls in combat, having one weapon thats truly effective in combat isn't all that exciting from a spectators or players perspective.

SUPER_SARS · May 2013

I suggest actual teamwork to take down teams of shotgunners. If you can't do that, you have bigger problems.

|strofix| · May 2013

Roobubba said:
What you described is NOT equal skill aliens vs marines. What you describe is in fact one or more very, very good marines against a team of average skulks with no pros there at all.

Then lets ask the pros to weigh in here. Best shotgunner vs best skulk. How often does the skulk win?

Skill for skill, the shotgun wins every time in my books.

Ricez said:

The only thing SG is good for is killing lerks or skulks that attack you or are in the small zone around you. It sucks for killing anything that's at a moderate distance; there's no point in shooting at something mid-distance away because by the time you go for a second shot the skulk or lerk will be too close to get a good shot.

Its a good thing almost 100% of the opposing team isn't forced to fight in melee then.

|strofix| · May 2013

Let me try put this into purely objective terms, as I see that myself and others have become quite biased in the way we try and explain potential events.

This is how I see the pros and cons of a shotgun.

Pros: Kills enemy players better than any other gun in the game. This is not a "in certain circumstances the shotgun can be good" kind of thing. The shotgun is plain better. There is no situation where a player, upon seeing a shotgun lying on the ground, would think "I should rather keep my LMG". You will always take it because it is always better. It is always better because it always kills enemy players better.

Cons: Price. That's it. The only downside is the economic price one must pay for it. That cost is exceptional hard for a random alien player to appreciate. Especially when they have to die numerous times to nullify it.

I view this as very similar to the situation with the fade currently (or more in previous versions). The fade is simply better than all other life forms, and its down side is only its cost. It becomes almost hellish to fight a good fade, because he will kill you over and over again in a very short space of time, without you being able to do much. This isn't necessarily imbalanced, it just isn't fun.

So none of that really means anything by itself. As long as the pros and cons balance out, it doesn't matter, even if one is direct, and the other is only passively through cost.

However, in my opinion, when you don't balance a major item equally in both direct impact, and economical impact, "fun" suffers. I have no proof for this, I only have my own experiences. Dying 3 times to kill a shotgunner is not fun. It may be fair, but its not fun.

delta78 · May 2013

My biggest problem with the SGs is that they are the only viable weapon at the moment. When I watch the tournaments, every time the marines researched SGs, they buy one immediately and throughout the match they spend rez on shotties and JP ( the UBER COMBO-MOMBO! ) and that's pretty much it. The rest of the high-tier weapons are rarely used and this bothers me a lot. They need to be buffed or changed, so that they can actually be legit weapons for fighting the other side and not fulfilling only super niche roles.

xen32 · May 2013

|strofix| said:

Roobubba said:
What you described is NOT equal skill aliens vs marines. What you describe is in fact one or more very, very good marines against a team of average skulks with no pros there at all.

Then lets ask the pros to weigh in here. Best shotgunner vs best skulk. How often does the skulk win?

Skill for skill, the shotgun wins every time in my books.

Well, skulk is free, shotgun is requiring both tres and pres.

Gliss · May 2013

xen32 said:

|strofix| said:

Roobubba said:
What you described is NOT equal skill aliens vs marines. What you describe is in fact one or more very, very good marines against a team of average skulks with no pros there at all.

Then lets ask the pros to weigh in here. Best shotgunner vs best skulk. How often does the skulk win?

Skill for skill, the shotgun wins every time in my books.

Well, skulk is free, shotgun is requiring both tres and pres.

you are missing the point, which was in the first post of this thread.

ratios like requiring 3 zerglings to beat 1 zealot are fine in RTS games, but not in an FPS game where there are actual players running up and getting instantly killed by someone who isn't even looking at them.

factoring in player emotions / reactions is very important. players like to feel useful, or like they are contributing at all points during a game. once shotguns come out, skulks are little more than fodder. it's not fun to play.

hitting res and avoiding shotguns is not the answer. again, this is not fun nor is it intuitive. from the viewpoint of a (new) player, I want to kill other players, not bite structures.

Shotgun

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