i didn't say it steals the role of the rifle. i said shotgun steals flamethrower's and grenade launcher's role. the game is all about rifles and shotguns.
The shotgun doesn't steal the flamethrower and grenade launcher's role... those weapons are indirect AOE damage, mostly designed to be used against structures or for area denial. The grenade launcher is actually a great weapon, especially if you're defending an ARC push. It's just more expensive than a shotgun, which is why you don't see as many of them. You have to pay extra to upgrade the armory, then you have to spend the extra P-res to get it. Grenade launchers and flamethrowers also aren't as good against higher life forms, but they aren't supposed to be. They're support weapons.
Basically, if you are a fade, or a Lerk, you do not take on shotgun marines in melee without expecting to die.
WTF are you even talking about? Do you even play this game? You have to be a pretty terrible fade going up against a marine with really good aim + upgraded weapons if you're dying to one or two marines on a regular basis. Not to mention you should almost never be engaging by yourself, unless it's a 1v1. Fades will almost always win 1v1's, until the marines are w3/a3, and even then you still should very rarely die, but you'll probably have to run away. Fades are incredibly strong, and can kill a marine with no upgrades in 2 hits, and IIRC it's still only a 3 hit kill until they get a3 where it'll take 4 hits, but just barely. If you're playing correctly and engaging the marines as a group, the fade should almost never die unless going up against someone who has exceptional aim.
If you're getting OHK'd by shotguns as a Lerk, you either got baited/amubshed around a corner, or you got cocky and decided to go in for a bite when you should've been spiking.
Skulks are countered fairly hard by shotguns, but once leap gets up it becomes entirely possible to win a 1v1 against a shotgunner, and unless the shotgunner has exceptional aim I would say the skulk has a chance of winning nearly half of the time. Especially if you have adrenaline or silence.
I think one of the most telling things about the shotgun though, is that there are a lot of guys out there who would just rather use an LMG. There are 2 guys on my team that will only get a shotgun when they need them to counter fades, because they can kill skulks, lerks, structures, and to some degree onii from a longer distance/safer vantage point. If the shotgun was objectively better in every way than the LMG, that wouldn't be happening.
you see, FADE do never HARD COUNTER anything. a group of 3 marines are capable of defending an area from fade. even a group of 2. now this is perfectly balanced and fun to play. a FADE can not outright rape the oppossition if they use their brains. a fade won't one shot you. if the fade somehow manages to destroy the opposition of 3 or 4. now thats called skill and you will be praised.
when you are killed by a fade, you can actually say " i had a chance to kill but missed it", that's not the case with shotgun vs skulk all you can say is "i had near to zero chance but i took it anyway"
You're wrong on about everything you said. I don't feel like justifying because just logging in the game would show you why you're wrong.
thousand hours of gameplay is enough for me to state my feelings about the game, i hate people like you. you just find me wrong because what i say is different your thoughts. nothing will grow better if not critisized
I kill shotgunners with a skulk all the time man. It's not that hard. I ambush them and get a free first bite. Skulks are free, shotguns cost 20 pres. Losing a shotgun is like losing a gorge. It's kind of a big deal. Shotguns aren't a hard counter for skulks. If a fade engages 3 marines, he dies. If a shotgunner engages 3 skulks, he dies. Fade doesn't one shot, but it's not supposed to. There is virtually no reason to use the shotgun at all if it can't one shot a skulk. You realize that in order for it to not one shot a skulk, it has to have its damage cut nearly in half? If you cut it's damage in half, it's not even worth it against skulks, let alone fades or lerks. The only reasonable way to fix the problem would be to give the skulk more HP, but then the LMG would suck against them, and skulks are already very strong. IMO, the real problem is they nerfed skulk movement awhile back. You want to fix the shotgun vs skulk "problem"? Give skulks their old air control and wall jump back.
i didn't say it steals the role of the rifle. i said shotgun steals flamethrower's and grenade launcher's role. the game is all about rifles and shotguns.
The shotgun doesn't steal the flamethrower and grenade launcher's role... those weapons are indirect AOE damage, mostly designed to be used against structures or for area denial. The grenade launcher is actually a great weapon, especially if you're defending an ARC push. It's just more expensive than a shotgun, which is why you don't see as many of them. You have to pay extra to upgrade the armory, then you have to spend the extra P-res to get it. Grenade launchers and flamethrowers also aren't as good against higher life forms, but they aren't supposed to be. They're support weapons.
think out of the box, just because its created for area denial that doesn't mean it has to stay that way.. shotgun can easily deny area in numbers, its funny it ALSO do area damage. the bullets are like a omnidestroying iron curtain of death.
make flamethrowers energy throttle more effective to actually be a treat for lerks and fades. now we have a clearer role for flamethrowers. make it cheaper like 15-20 res. give whips a possibility to miss grenade whack, like 1 out of 5. or teach people to bounce the grenades to mess with grenade whack code. lol you don't need GL's to defend arcs, you can't defend arcs from bilebomb threat that easily thats a contraversial role.
I agree with the OP in the sense that the lowest-tier weapon for the Marine (that isn't availible from the start that is) seems to be an all-purpose ass-whooping gun. Shotguns are preferred over flamethrowers and grenade launchers as weapons. Mainly because flamethrowers and grenade launchers are at heart building-killing devices. In my opinion it makes more sense for an all-purpose killing device to be later tier than something which is a dedicated tool.
Remember that marine weapon effectiveness is not tied to the weapon itself, but the weapon upgrades. A level 0 shotgun is not a killing machine, a level 3 shotgun is. It's only fair that you can have early w0-1 shotguns countering carapace skulks and lerks but can't fight effectively against fades before w2-3. This is also a much more elegant and flexible mechanic than having separate weapons in later stages of the tech tree with no other difference between them than fire power.
About the fun factor (which is questionable only in a battle between a skulk and a shotgun, since other lifeforms can easily compete), I think that people just need to understand their role better and start finding enjoyment in it. Skulks are not meant for engagements from w1-2, a1-2 shotguns onwards, they are meant for harassment. At that point the alien team should already have the fades out, and as such the role of the skulk changes from a combat unit to an extractor and phase gate harasser. If people can't find fun in that and only want to take part in combat, then I'm forced to use the "this game isn't for you" -argument. One thing that I like about NS2 is that there are roles with no or very little combat involved. It provides great variety, although I personally think there are way too little of these roles in the game, and too much is reliant on combat.
Now before strofix strikes in and makes his argument of how holding mouse 1 and biting metal isn't fun, I say why is pressing mouse 1 and biting flesh inherently the better alternative? Harassing extractors is by no means a PvE situation (if it was, marines would be doing something very wrong on the homefront), there will always be marines defending those extractors. The cat-and-mouse game of outsmarting your opponent while harassing is at times much more interesting than plain combat, at least in my opinion. Sneaking to the extractor unnoticed, planning your routes, having to listen for marine boot steps while chewing, having to decide whether you can engage the marine or not, and if not, when to disengage from the extractor with having a chance to escape, judging when the defender has gotten bored of you hiding and engaging the extractor again or choosing a different extractor to attack to have the defender bounce between locations... This has much more tactical thinking and battle of wits involved in it than fighting on the main battlefield, and if someone doesn't like it... Well, again I'll have to whip out the "not for you" -card.
sir you miss the point, fanboys like us will surely find enjoyment in skulk vs shotgun play. but if this game is to retain or attract more people this poor design must be changed, rage causes people to quit. i don't say dumb it down, i say make it counterable and actually be enjoyable.
i made 4 of my friends play the game, hell i even payed for one of them. now non of them plays the game. in raidcall they always whined about certain classic FPS elements and brutallity of the game. and believe me those guys are ex hardcore players who played games like Ultima online where you could lost everything you got in a single fight. i mean they are familiar with hardcore nature of classic games.
One question that I keep asking and has never been answered concerning SGs is this:
How is it balanced that the side that gets flat wep/armor upgrades has a weapon that has the ability to 1-shot the other side's free unit while the other side does not have the same ability?
I know, asymmetry, but that doesn't address the fact that even something like the fade (which is the alien's best marine killing unit) doesn't 1-shot lvl 0 marines. How is it balanced that marines can run around 1-shotting cara skulks (not gonna bother addressing the other life-forms for the sake of simplicity) while aliens can not go around 1-shotting armor 0 marines even with their 75 res unit?
As far as the quality of the game, I believe that SGs are a major detraction. Every single comp game that you watch, they go SG and nothing else. There is not strategy, you always know that they are going SG since it is the best killing device. I believe that this only leads to a stale game in terms of strategy. Granted, there are other aspects of the game where strategy has a role and can be varied, but this will always be a constant unless the SG is changed or something happens to upset its role as super-alien-killing-gun.
1. One shot weapons have existed in multiplayer games since Doom. Some examples Include; BFG (Doom/Quake) Energy Sword (Halo) Gravity Hammer (Halo) Sniper Rifles (Call Of Duty/Counter Strike/ Almost any FPS) Knife (Call Of Duty) Rocket Launcher (Call Of Duty) Chainsaw (Gears of War) Redeemer (Unreal Tournament) These are by no means games exclusive to "hardcore fanboys". It is frankly, your opinion that one shot weapons shouldn't exist, and it evidently isn't an opinion shared by most game developers throughout history.
2. I have given specific examples that the shotgun does not make other weapons useless. The rifle in particular has uses against Lerks, hitting buildings from range, doing more DPS to onos etc. I agree that currently the grenade launcher and flamethrower are not utilised as much as they could be, but they have their uses. try hopping into a match on the Combat mod and you'll quickly see grenades being used to dish out insane damage to the hive and surrounding lifeforms. In Vanilla NS2 though, it's a substantial P.Res investment and diminishes your ability to defend yourself in combat. The flamethrower has a very specific purpose, and that is to stop the energy regeneration abilities of aliens. I have lost fades due to being on fire and not having the energy to escape, so it is by no means useless. It doesn't give out a lot of DPS though, so most players avoid them.
3. Shotguns require skill. Low rate of fire, long reload time, minimal effective range. It seems any explanation I can give will be ignored. An example of a true skilless weapon can be found in Call Of Duty. The akimbo machine pistols, killstreak rewards and the Nuke.
You are still missing it, you are actually missing the WHOLE concept.
players in the games you have listed is on equal footings. the problem rises when "classes" involved. in cs, cod and many other fps you are not bound to a certain class and fight another "class" that is OP over you. the example you are stating is silly, i don't see any skulks capable of carrying shotguns.
besides, in CS,COD,HL,QUAKE one shot killers DEMAND EXTREME SKILL, can be countered easily. bear extreme disadvantages THAT JUSTIFIES THE ONE SHOT KILLING. those disadvantages are not present in natural selection 2. you are one shotting(in every occasion) "class" and that is justified as BALANCe.i don't see anyone RAGE over TEAM FORTRESS sniper one shots. because fetching a oneshot kill REQUIRES DECENT SKILL, AND LUCK. a sniper is countered easily with BRAINS.
i didn't say it steals the role of the rifle. i said shotgun steals flamethrower's and grenade launcher's role. the game is all about rifles and shotguns.
akimbo in call of duty is an addressed issue, just because another game has a OP weapon that doesn't mean all games must have similiar weapons. akimbo served no distinc purpose, it was just OP. nerfed accordingly.
I'll try to make this as clear as possible and respond to each point you've made.
Firstly i'd like to point out that there are very few asymmetrical FPS/RTS games like NS2, so to expect me to find an example of a one hit kill weapon in another comparable game similar to the shotgun in NS2 is unreasonable and in my opinion not a good defense for the point i was raising in that paragraph, which was that other one hit kill weapons have existed in FPS games for the past 20 or so years. In your 3rd post on this topic you stated; " in a multiplayer game, no one must be get one shotted by any freaking means. its total frustration, poor design, poor mechanic." that opinion is not shared by game developers throughout history, and I feel they are more qualified than yourself to say what is or isn't poor design.
You claim that the one hit kill weapons in cs,cod,hl & quake require extreme skill and come with extreme disadvantages. Lets break a few of the examples i gave down and compare them to the shotgun in NS2:
Energy Sword/Gravity Hammer (Halo): In order to kill using these weapons you must be in close range to your target. to kill using the shotgun in NS2 you must be close to your target. You lose the ability to attack at range. The shotgun in NS2 also removes the ability to attack at range There is a cooldown between attacks. The shotgun in NS2 also has a cooldown between attacks
Sniper rifle (COD,BF3 etc). You must score a direct hit on your target to kill them. In NS2 you must also score a direct hit with a shotgun to kill them, although there is a bullet spread that will damage enemies if you miss marginally There is a cooldown between shots, just like NS2's shotgun
Knife (COD): you must be in close range to kill using this weapon. just like the shotgun, though it is noted that most lifeforms must enter this range during combat. There are no disadvantages to this weapon as it is supplementary to your ranged weapons, not true for the shotgun in NS2
Rocket Launcher/grenade launcher (COD): Limited ammo. 1 hit kill by aiming at or near target. Skill requirement: Minimal - the shotgun must be a direct hit to kill
Chainsaw (gears of war): Not the best example, as it is an attachment to another weapon It requires to be in close range (like the shotgun) It has a cooldown between attacks (like the shotgun) It leaves you vulnerable to other attacks during the cooldown (the attack animation is the cooldown before it can be used again). the shotgun also leaves you vulnerable to attack between shots
Redeemer (Unreal Tournament) Skill requirement is minimal. You shoot, everything in a massive radius of where it lands instantly dies, and if your aim is poor, you have the opportunity to take control of the rocket and guide it directly to the target. Limited ammo
You claim that in NS2 the shotgun is one shotting in every occasion. this is false. you must score a direct hit at close range to kill the weakest lifeform (and only the weakest lifeform) in 1 shot. Again, lets break this down and go through the pro's and con's of the shotgun compared to other NS2 weapons.
Shotgun V Rifle Pro's
High burst damage resulting in the ability to one shot a skulk
Shotgun V Rifle Con's Less Ammo Can't engage effectively at range Longer Reload time Longer cooldown between shots Costs P.Res Less accurate Lower DPS
Shotgun V Grenade launcher Pro's More accurate Damage dealt at point of shooting (rather than several seconds later) Quicker reload More Ammunition Less expensive Higher DPS?
Shotgun V Grenade launcher Con's Lower burst damage Less effective against structures Smaller Area of effect area
Shotgun V Flamethrower Pro's Higher DPS Costs less Quicker reload (if you consider each shell as a reload. reloading a clip takes substantially longer than the Flamethrower)
Shotgun V Flamethrower Con's No Damage over time Smaller area of effect area Does not stop energy regeneration Less ammo
Finally, I mentioned akimbo weapons in cod as an example of a skill-less weapon so you can see what skill-less really means. Those weapons have a high rate of fire, high damage, large bullet spread, quick reload and plenty of ammo. The shotgun in NS2 has a low rate of fire, high damage, medium bullet spread (largest in NS2), slow reload and reasonable amounts of ammo. I have pointed out above the various disadvantages the shotgun has to other NS2 weapons above...You claim there are none. I did not say akimbo's are OP (although they probably are) or that an OP weapon in one game makes it ok in another.
How is it balanced that the side that gets flat wep/armor upgrades has a weapon that has the ability to 1-shot the other side's free unit while the other side does not have the same ability?
I know, asymmetry, but that doesn't address the fact that even something like the fade (which is the alien's best marine killing unit) doesn't 1-shot lvl 0 marines. How is it balanced that marines can run around 1-shotting cara skulks (not gonna bother addressing the other life-forms for the sake of simplicity) while aliens can not go around 1-shotting armor 0 marines even with their 75 res unit?
As far as the quality of the game, I believe that SGs are a major detraction. Every single comp game that you watch, they go SG and nothing else. There is not strategy, you always know that they are going SG since it is the best killing device. I believe that this only leads to a stale game in terms of strategy. Granted, there are other aspects of the game where strategy has a role and can be varied, but this will always be a constant unless the SG is changed or something happens to upset its role as super-alien-killing-gun.
Probably because most aliens can come out of nowhere, where skulks can choose whether or not to engage a shotgunner. The only way a one-shotting alien would work is if the alien also has a mobility disadvantage (similar to the shotguns's range disadvantage).
The bigger problem, in terms of asymmetry, is that marines get flat bonuses the longer they are in the game, where the aliens gain different abilities to keep themselves relevant. How useful is silence or celerity to a skulk? depends on how they use it. How useful are armor or weapons upgrades for marines? They are always going to be useful, requiring no change in playstyle for the marines.
If shotguns are all powerful, why is it sometimes considered more "pro" to get mines first? Mines can also 1-hit (uncaraed skulks) and are cheaper...
I have died MANY times as a solo shotgunner fighting a skulk. Does this make me a bad player?
mine is the perfect example how a one shot kill must happen.
because of the brains involved; you can actually say that "I DIED BECAUSE I WAS CARELESS, I COULD AVOID THE THREAT BY OTHER MEANS" its acceptable because a mine is not a certain death, and is avoidable and it is also a perfect COUNTER FOR SKULKS, see the picture now? its fun... sentry is also a death sentence for a skulk but you can actually find a way to counter its effectiveness. . but there is just not FUN way to avoid a shotgunner, you walljump finger's crossed. Imagine the skill i suggested was in the game then you could say "if i could timed that trait properly there was a chance for me to kill him but i missed it"
there are army compositions
best unit composition counters shotguns is onos acts a tank getting all the attention while skulks finishing the rest. but you can only see this tactic only 5 secs in an entire game.
another composition is gorge, babbling skulks. now this is a brain involved tactic. but we can see this only in competitive matches because the god damn babblers cost res, seems no one figured those babblers act as a second layer of armor. i am not a competitive gamer. but that doesn't mean i can't enjoy the game.
and getting mines first is the best possible option, since their damage will not rival armored units of late game you don't have to be pro to figure that. weapons 0 shotgun is the what this weapon should be throughout the game. later upgrades turns this weapon into death machine.
I gave that as one example, by no means a comprehensive list of counters. 5 marines with shotguns is, after all, 100 pres + 20 tres investment.
More importantly, the shotgun cannot 1 shot a lerk (it's 1 + a bit) or 2 shot a fade (it's 2 + a bit). In practice, teamwork means someone else has already put in a couple of lmg shots on the lerk/fade, most likely, but in and of itself, it's NOT a 1 shot kill on anything other than the skulk.
(edit for the pedants: assuming carapace and level 3 weapons upgrade).
@roobubba ... No w3 will 1 shot a lerk....used to be 1 and a bit but now its 1...same as its now 2 shots to kill a fade. It was heavily discussed a fgew patches ago when it happened...heck even I managed to 2 shot fades (and I can be an appalling shot)...the whole you cant 1 shot a lerk argument is no longer valid...it can and does happen (and not due to stray bullets...that used to be the case). You used to be saved by about 2 armour points...which the damage increase a few patches ago demolished.
20 res per marine is not a lot of res...heck its what you start with...its only 20 res each...which is hardly a big expense.
Its funny that the balance mod has fades damage getting nerfed so it takes as many swipes as bites to kill a marine...yet marines have multiple ways to 1 shot multiple lifeforms...even with carapace.
The SG is a weapon that has almost 0 downside...the fixed spread makes it easier to shoot at long distances and land hits consistently.
Basically, if you are a fade, or a Lerk, you do not take on shotgun marines in melee without expecting to die.
WTF are you even talking about? Do you even play this game? You have to be a pretty terrible fade going up against a marine with really good aim + upgraded weapons if you're dying to one or two marines on a regular basis. Not to mention you should almost never be engaging by yourself, unless it's a 1v1. Fades will almost always win 1v1's, until the marines are w3/a3, and even then you still should very rarely die, but you'll probably have to run away. Fades are incredibly strong, and can kill a marine with no upgrades in 2 hits, and IIRC it's still only a 3 hit kill until they get a3 where it'll take 4 hits, but just barely. If you're playing correctly and engaging the marines as a group, the fade should almost never die unless going up against someone who has exceptional aim.
If you're getting OHK'd by shotguns as a Lerk, you either got baited/amubshed around a corner, or you got cocky and decided to go in for a bite when you should've been spiking.
Skulks are countered fairly hard by shotguns, but once leap gets up it becomes entirely possible to win a 1v1 against a shotgunner, and unless the shotgunner has exceptional aim I would say the skulk has a chance of winning nearly half of the time. Especially if you have adrenaline or silence.
I think one of the most telling things about the shotgun though, is that there are a lot of guys out there who would just rather use an LMG. There are 2 guys on my team that will only get a shotgun when they need them to counter fades, because they can kill skulks, lerks, structures, and to some degree onii from a longer distance/safer vantage point. If the shotgun was objectively better in every way than the LMG, that wouldn't be happening.
you see, FADE do never HARD COUNTER anything. a group of 3 marines are capable of defending an area from fade. even a group of 2. now this is perfectly balanced and fun to play. a FADE can not outright rape the oppossition if they use their brains. a fade won't one shot you. if the fade somehow manages to destroy the opposition of 3 or 4. now thats called skill and you will be praised.
when you are killed by a fade, you can actually say " i had a chance to kill but missed it", that's not the case with shotgun vs skulk all you can say is "i had near to zero chance but i took it anyway"
I wonder what kind of weed you smoke bro. A fade leaves no chance whatsoever to a single marine, none, nada, niet. Shotguns ? I'll shadowstep up and down, left and right and the result is the same, a dead marine that had no chance, even the most skilled one. And I'm not even a great fade, I'm just kinda good a juking exits.
This game is a FPS/RTS mash-up. RTS induces hard counters. Shotguns hard counters many lifeform at the cost of pres. Aliens get to pay pres to engage a weapon race, which in turn, hard counters shotgun marines. Which in turn can respond later on with jetpacks, which hard counters other things. This is the nature of this game, enjoy it or leave it.
The video on the second page says it all. Players hit a thick wall and they are out. From experience I know fighting a shotgun-er is really hard and many times frustrating. In Many games I've seen one marine going rambo with a shotty and kill everything in his path. Do we have to encourage such a behavior in this team game? Yeah, he did managed to kick ass and delay the advance of the whole alien team but this is not Quake.
Why can't you go on a rampage with the rifle? Or the flamethrower? Or with the GL? Oh yes, you can't one shot with those...
Do you know how the alien team felt, when they saw one guy going rambo on them and they couldn't do anything? They simply left the match...
And it's not only the "shotfun" the cause of many players to not have fun in this game and leave.
Don't get me wrong, the game must not be dumped down to please the more casual players. However, it really needs a better way to teach the players how to play properly. The punishments for mistakes must not feel like "almost-real-life-like" and they must teach you how to do better in such matter, that it provokes them to explore the mechanics behind the game.
I'm still having a blast playing the game but I can see that it needs to improve its relation with the new players and not hurl them into a meat grinder and expect them to stay and play more.
1. One shot weapons have existed in multiplayer games since Doom. Some examples Include; BFG (Doom/Quake) Energy Sword (Halo) Gravity Hammer (Halo) Sniper Rifles (Call Of Duty/Counter Strike/ Almost any FPS) Knife (Call Of Duty) Rocket Launcher (Call Of Duty) Chainsaw (Gears of War) Redeemer (Unreal Tournament) These are by no means games exclusive to "hardcore fanboys". It is frankly, your opinion that one shot weapons shouldn't exist, and it evidently isn't an opinion shared by most game developers throughout history.
2. I have given specific examples that the shotgun does not make other weapons useless. The rifle in particular has uses against Lerks, hitting buildings from range, doing more DPS to onos etc. I agree that currently the grenade launcher and flamethrower are not utilised as much as they could be, but they have their uses. try hopping into a match on the Combat mod and you'll quickly see grenades being used to dish out insane damage to the hive and surrounding lifeforms. In Vanilla NS2 though, it's a substantial P.Res investment and diminishes your ability to defend yourself in combat. The flamethrower has a very specific purpose, and that is to stop the energy regeneration abilities of aliens. I have lost fades due to being on fire and not having the energy to escape, so it is by no means useless. It doesn't give out a lot of DPS though, so most players avoid them.
3. Shotguns require skill. Low rate of fire, long reload time, minimal effective range. It seems any explanation I can give will be ignored. An example of a true skilless weapon can be found in Call Of Duty. The akimbo machine pistols, killstreak rewards and the Nuke.
You are still missing it, you are actually missing the WHOLE concept.
players in the games you have listed is on equal footings. the problem rises when "classes" involved. in cs, cod and many other fps you are not bound to a certain class and fight another "class" that is OP over you. the example you are stating is silly, i don't see any skulks capable of carrying shotguns.
besides, in CS,COD,HL,QUAKE one shot killers DEMAND EXTREME SKILL, can be countered easily. bear extreme disadvantages THAT JUSTIFIES THE ONE SHOT KILLING. those disadvantages are not present in natural selection 2. you are one shotting(in every occasion) "class" and that is justified as BALANCe.i don't see anyone RAGE over TEAM FORTRESS sniper one shots. because fetching a oneshot kill REQUIRES DECENT SKILL, AND LUCK. a sniper is countered easily with BRAINS.
i didn't say it steals the role of the rifle. i said shotgun steals flamethrower's and grenade launcher's role. the game is all about rifles and shotguns.
akimbo in call of duty is an addressed issue, just because another game has a OP weapon that doesn't mean all games must have similiar weapons. akimbo served no distinc purpose, it was just OP. nerfed accordingly.
I'll try to make this as clear as possible and respond to each point you've made.
Firstly i'd like to point out that there are very few asymmetrical FPS/RTS games like NS2, so to expect me to find an example of a one hit kill weapon in another comparable game similar to the shotgun in NS2 is unreasonable and in my opinion not a good defense for the point i was raising in that paragraph, which was that other one hit kill weapons have existed in FPS games for the past 20 or so years. In your 3rd post on this topic you stated; " in a multiplayer game, no one must be get one shotted by any freaking means. its total frustration, poor design, poor mechanic." that opinion is not shared by game developers throughout history, and I feel they are more qualified than yourself to say what is or isn't poor design.
You claim that the one hit kill weapons in cs,cod,hl & quake require extreme skill and come with extreme disadvantages. Lets break a few of the examples i gave down and compare them to the shotgun in NS2:
Energy Sword/Gravity Hammer (Halo): In order to kill using these weapons you must be in close range to your target. to kill using the shotgun in NS2 you must be close to your target. You lose the ability to attack at range. The shotgun in NS2 also removes the ability to attack at range There is a cooldown between attacks. The shotgun in NS2 also has a cooldown between attacks
Sniper rifle (COD,BF3 etc). You must score a direct hit on your target to kill them. In NS2 you must also score a direct hit with a shotgun to kill them, although there is a bullet spread that will damage enemies if you miss marginally There is a cooldown between shots, just like NS2's shotgun
Knife (COD): you must be in close range to kill using this weapon. just like the shotgun, though it is noted that most lifeforms must enter this range during combat. There are no disadvantages to this weapon as it is supplementary to your ranged weapons, not true for the shotgun in NS2
Rocket Launcher/grenade launcher (COD): Limited ammo. 1 hit kill by aiming at or near target. Skill requirement: Minimal - the shotgun must be a direct hit to kill
Chainsaw (gears of war): Not the best example, as it is an attachment to another weapon It requires to be in close range (like the shotgun) It has a cooldown between attacks (like the shotgun) It leaves you vulnerable to other attacks during the cooldown (the attack animation is the cooldown before it can be used again). the shotgun also leaves you vulnerable to attack between shots
Redeemer (Unreal Tournament) Skill requirement is minimal. You shoot, everything in a massive radius of where it lands instantly dies, and if your aim is poor, you have the opportunity to take control of the rocket and guide it directly to the target. Limited ammo
You claim that in NS2 the shotgun is one shotting in every occasion. this is false. you must score a direct hit at close range to kill the weakest lifeform (and only the weakest lifeform) in 1 shot. Again, lets break this down and go through the pro's and con's of the shotgun compared to other NS2 weapons.
Shotgun V Rifle Pro's
High burst damage resulting in the ability to one shot a skulk
Shotgun V Rifle Con's Less Ammo Can't engage effectively at range Longer Reload time Longer cooldown between shots Costs P.Res Less accurate Lower DPS
Shotgun V Grenade launcher Pro's More accurate Damage dealt at point of shooting (rather than several seconds later) Quicker reload More Ammunition Less expensive Higher DPS?
Shotgun V Grenade launcher Con's Lower burst damage Less effective against structures Smaller Area of effect area
Shotgun V Flamethrower Pro's Higher DPS Costs less Quicker reload (if you consider each shell as a reload. reloading a clip takes substantially longer than the Flamethrower)
Shotgun V Flamethrower Con's No Damage over time Smaller area of effect area Does not stop energy regeneration Less ammo
Finally, I mentioned akimbo weapons in cod as an example of a skill-less weapon so you can see what skill-less really means. Those weapons have a high rate of fire, high damage, large bullet spread, quick reload and plenty of ammo. The shotgun in NS2 has a low rate of fire, high damage, medium bullet spread (largest in NS2), slow reload and reasonable amounts of ammo. I have pointed out above the various disadvantages the shotgun has to other NS2 weapons above...You claim there are none. I did not say akimbo's are OP (although they probably are) or that an OP weapon in one game makes it ok in another.
sniper rifles - that is entirely false. shotgun becomes effective in close range and we are talking about an enemy who HAS TO CLOSE their range to be a threat. in this case because skulks are not ranged units. which means shotgun is all effective against a skulk both defensively and aggresively. range is irrelevant and this is not a disadvantage against any alien unit except lerk. and we are talking about an overall map design that is created mainly for close and medium range combat.
knifes - same as above, irrelevant
energy swords- same as above, irrelevant
grenade launchers and rockets - argued and approved by the community that they are OP, thanks for helping my idea.
redeemer- outright op, thank you for helping my idea. Counters to the Redeemer
Shooting the redeemer before impact will destroy it.
It has a characteristic launching sound. Use that to locate the missile and destroy it.
Using tank shells is surprisingly effective. If a redeemer is going to hit your node; hit your own node top with a tank shell; and time it so that the tank shell hits half a second before the redeemer. The blast radius of the tank shell will take out the redeemer.
Many servers choose to replace the redeemer with a rocket launcher in their maps because of its power, and that the leading team will usually have exclusive access to the redeemer, making comebacks difficult.
Basically, if you are a fade, or a Lerk, you do not take on shotgun marines in melee without expecting to die.
WTF are you even talking about? Do you even play this game? You have to be a pretty terrible fade going up against a marine with really good aim + upgraded weapons if you're dying to one or two marines on a regular basis. Not to mention you should almost never be engaging by yourself, unless it's a 1v1. Fades will almost always win 1v1's, until the marines are w3/a3, and even then you still should very rarely die, but you'll probably have to run away. Fades are incredibly strong, and can kill a marine with no upgrades in 2 hits, and IIRC it's still only a 3 hit kill until they get a3 where it'll take 4 hits, but just barely. If you're playing correctly and engaging the marines as a group, the fade should almost never die unless going up against someone who has exceptional aim.
If you're getting OHK'd by shotguns as a Lerk, you either got baited/amubshed around a corner, or you got cocky and decided to go in for a bite when you should've been spiking.
Skulks are countered fairly hard by shotguns, but once leap gets up it becomes entirely possible to win a 1v1 against a shotgunner, and unless the shotgunner has exceptional aim I would say the skulk has a chance of winning nearly half of the time. Especially if you have adrenaline or silence.
I think one of the most telling things about the shotgun though, is that there are a lot of guys out there who would just rather use an LMG. There are 2 guys on my team that will only get a shotgun when they need them to counter fades, because they can kill skulks, lerks, structures, and to some degree onii from a longer distance/safer vantage point. If the shotgun was objectively better in every way than the LMG, that wouldn't be happening.
you see, FADE do never HARD COUNTER anything. a group of 3 marines are capable of defending an area from fade. even a group of 2. now this is perfectly balanced and fun to play. a FADE can not outright rape the oppossition if they use their brains. a fade won't one shot you. if the fade somehow manages to destroy the opposition of 3 or 4. now thats called skill and you will be praised.
when you are killed by a fade, you can actually say " i had a chance to kill but missed it", that's not the case with shotgun vs skulk all you can say is "i had near to zero chance but i took it anyway"
I wonder what kind of weed you smoke bro. A fade leaves no chance whatsoever to a single marine, none, nada, niet. Shotguns ? I'll shadowstep up and down, left and right and the result is the same, a dead marine that had no chance, even the most skilled one. And I'm not even a great fade, I'm just kinda good a juking exits.
This game is a FPS/RTS mash-up. RTS induces hard counters. Shotguns hard counters many lifeform at the cost of pres. Aliens get to pay pres to engage a weapon race, which in turn, hard counters shotgun marines. Which in turn can respond later on with jetpacks, which hard counters other things. This is the nature of this game, enjoy it or leave it.
END. OF. THREAD.
i have 2 things to say to you.
1. thanks god you are not a game developer 2. leave those rookie servers and find real opponents instead of 5 hours-gameplay newbies
@roobubba ... No w3 will 1 shot a lerk....used to be 1 and a bit but now its 1...same as its now 2 shots to kill a fade. It was heavily discussed a fgew patches ago when it happened...heck even I managed to 2 shot fades (and I can be an appalling shot)...the whole you cant 1 shot a lerk argument is no longer valid...it can and does happen (and not due to stray bullets...that used to be the case). You used to be saved by about 2 armour points...which the damage increase a few patches ago demolished.
You cannot compare w3 shotguns to aliens with no carapace. Carapace has to be taken into account, because aliens will always have it in that situation. Not having carapace is the exception, not the rule. A carapace lerk has 275 effective hp, more than enough to take a full blast from the shotgun. A carapace fade, however, can be killed in 2 shots, but both of those shots have to be perfect.
I wonder what kind of weed you smoke bro. A fade leaves no chance whatsoever to a single marine, none, nada, niet. Shotguns ? I'll shadowstep up and down, left and right and the result is the same, a dead marine that had no chance, even the most skilled one. And I'm not even a great fade, I'm just kinda good a juking exits.
This game is a FPS/RTS mash-up. RTS induces hard counters. Shotguns hard counters many lifeform at the cost of pres. Aliens get to pay pres to engage a weapon race, which in turn, hard counters shotgun marines. Which in turn can respond later on with jetpacks, which hard counters other things. This is the nature of this game, enjoy it or leave it.
END. OF. THREAD.
This is complete bull, as you can time and time again see in competitive games with roughly equally high-skilled players taking a bout. Sure, a fade has the clear advantage in 1on1 situations, but it's not impossible and not even rare to see one marine stand his ground against a fade, even without full upgrades. He might not kill that fade, but the fact that he forces it to retreat surely counts as "having a chance".
I wonder what kind of weed you smoke bro. A fade leaves no chance whatsoever to a single marine, none, nada, niet. Shotguns ? I'll shadowstep up and down, left and right and the result is the same, a dead marine that had no chance, even the most skilled one. And I'm not even a great fade, I'm just kinda good a juking exits.
This game is a FPS/RTS mash-up. RTS induces hard counters. Shotguns hard counters many lifeform at the cost of pres. Aliens get to pay pres to engage a weapon race, which in turn, hard counters shotgun marines. Which in turn can respond later on with jetpacks, which hard counters other things. This is the nature of this game, enjoy it or leave it.
END. OF. THREAD.
I'll be the first to admit that I can't do what you talk about here with the fade. I won't say I have more chance of dying than not, but every time I fight a good shot gunner there is a very real chance that I will be killed, simply because I don't can't play evasively as you talked about.
However, I sure as hell can shoot a fade on my skill level. I've done it many times, you send them packing in one shot, or you kill them in two. The issue here is that someone of my skill level can do the one, but not the other. Two shotting a fade is not really difficult, but avoiding shots while still getting hits on your target requires a lot of skill and practice.
There's a reward imbalance here. And this imbalance is so exacerbated in the case of the skulk vs the shotgun, to the point where eventually, the difference becomes insurmountable.
I also think its important to once again bring to everyone's attention that, in my opinion, no one here is saying that the shotgun is inherently overpowered, or game breaking. The marines are not winning more games than they are losing because of the shotgun. The issue here is that it is making it unfun to play against a shotgun. And not just boohoo baby died once to a good player, but incredibly unenjoyable in many situations.
@roobubba ... No w3 will 1 shot a lerk....used to be 1 and a bit but now its 1...same as its now 2 shots to kill a fade. It was heavily discussed a fgew patches ago when it happened...heck even I managed to 2 shot fades (and I can be an appalling shot)...the whole you cant 1 shot a lerk argument is no longer valid...it can and does happen (and not due to stray bullets...that used to be the case). You used to be saved by about 2 armour points...which the damage increase a few patches ago demolished.
You cannot compare w3 shotguns to aliens with no carapace. Carapace has to be taken into account, because aliens will always have it in that situation. Not having carapace is the exception, not the rule. A carapace lerk has 275 effective hp, more than enough to take a full blast from the shotgun. A carapace fade, however, can be killed in 2 shots, but both of those shots have to be perfect.
I wonder what kind of weed you smoke bro. A fade leaves no chance whatsoever to a single marine, none, nada, niet. Shotguns ? I'll shadowstep up and down, left and right and the result is the same, a dead marine that had no chance, even the most skilled one. And I'm not even a great fade, I'm just kinda good a juking exits.
This game is a FPS/RTS mash-up. RTS induces hard counters. Shotguns hard counters many lifeform at the cost of pres. Aliens get to pay pres to engage a weapon race, which in turn, hard counters shotgun marines. Which in turn can respond later on with jetpacks, which hard counters other things. This is the nature of this game, enjoy it or leave it.
END. OF. THREAD.
This is complete bull, as you can time and time again see in competitive games with roughly equally high-skilled players taking a bout. Sure, a fade has the clear advantage in 1on1 situations, but it's not impossible and not even rare to see one marine stand his ground against a fade, even without full upgrades. He might not kill that fade, but the fact that he forces it to retreat surely counts as "having a chance".
Sorry but unless they have recently nerfed the SG damage it does enough to kill a lerk it was a big talking point when they both changed the number of pellets and also the spread. If I have missed a patch note where they mentioned this reduction please link me.
Sorry but unless they have recently nerfed the SG damage it does enough to kill a lerk it was a big talking point when they both changed the number of pellets and also the spread. If I have missed a patch note where they mentioned this reduction please link me.
A carapace lerk has 275 effective HP (125 plus 75 x 2 = 275) and a w3 shotgun damage currently at its all-time high deals 237 damage with a full shot. It isn't and has never been capable of one-shotting a carapace lerk. A non-carapace lerk, sure, with its 225 effective hp, but you cannot compare them.
There hasn't been any reduction, only an increase to the damage several patches past. Go test it in-game.
Thanks for the clarification, Therius - I take back my 2-shotting of fades statement as that was clearly wrong.
Back on topic: it seems fair to say that the main (dare I say only) complaint in this thread is that it's not fun to play against shotgunners as it stands.
That's a perfectly valid, subjective opinion. Is the problem limited to just the people in this thread who supported it? Absolutely not. Is it a problem for the majority? I guess not - and not by a long way - or we'd be seeing a lot more of these threads. I personally like the tenseness that it brings to the game, but I respect the right of those who disagree to do so.
Beyond the argument of fun (again, not necessarily something that a lot of people agree with...), I can see no other valid argument in this thread that supports changing the shotgun, unless I missed something...?
That's a perfectly valid, subjective opinion. Is the problem limited to just the people in this thread who supported it? Absolutely not. Is it a problem for the majority? I guess not - and not by a long way - or we'd be seeing a lot more of these threads.
Please stop trying to speak for the majority. State your opinion and validate it with testimony. Do not rely on the faceless majority to do it for you.
High burst damage resulting in the ability to one shot a skulk
Shotgun V Rifle Con's Less Ammo Can't engage effectively at range Longer Reload time Longer cooldown between shots Costs P.Res Less accurate Lower DPS
Shotgun V Grenade launcher Pro's More accurate Damage dealt at point of shooting (rather than several seconds later) Quicker reload More Ammunition Less expensive Higher DPS?
Shotgun V Grenade launcher Con's Lower burst damage Less effective against structures Smaller Area of effect area
Shotgun V Flamethrower Pro's Higher DPS Costs less Quicker reload (if you consider each shell as a reload. reloading a clip takes substantially longer than the Flamethrower)
Shotgun V Flamethrower Con's No Damage over time Smaller area of effect area Does not stop energy regeneration Less ammo
Finally, I mentioned akimbo weapons in cod as an example of a skill-less weapon so you can see what skill-less really means. Those weapons have a high rate of fire, high damage, large bullet spread, quick reload and plenty of ammo. The shotgun in NS2 has a low rate of fire, high damage, medium bullet spread (largest in NS2), slow reload and reasonable amounts of ammo. I have pointed out above the various disadvantages the shotgun has to other NS2 weapons above...You claim there are none. I did not say akimbo's are OP (although they probably are) or that an OP weapon in one game makes it ok in another.
You might want to look at your list again, so much wrong.
Shotgun has higher DPS, you listed its decreased range twice by also listing its accuracy, and shotgun has higher effective ammo, not less.
Grenade Launcher is more accurate than the shotgun. Shotgun is not an area of effect weapon, it is a scatter weapon. Grenades can do full damage to multiple targets while shotgun has a set damage limit. And grenades detonate instantly on a direct hit, only a miss causes the timer.
Shotgun is still not an area of effect weapon. [I dont even know if flamethrower is either though. I would think it is, but it never feels that way in gameplay.] Energy regeneration is not stopped, it is only slowed. Shotgun still has more effective ammo.
That's a perfectly valid, subjective opinion. Is the problem limited to just the people in this thread who supported it? Absolutely not. Is it a problem for the majority? I guess not - and not by a long way - or we'd be seeing a lot more of these threads.
Please stop trying to speak for the majority. State your opinion and validate it with testimony. Do not rely on the faceless majority to do it for you.
I'm not trying to speak for the majority. I'm doing some conjecture based on the lack of evidence of a widely-voiced problem. Hence the word 'guess' in my post!
What I do appear to be right on, however, is that this thread boils down to 1 thing: some people think playing against shotguns is not fun to the point that it ruins the game for them.
How many is some? I don't know. Let's try nerfing the shotgun and see what forum-o-meter says about that, shall we?
No, Roobubba, you can two-shot a fade since 2x237 is more than the effective hp of 450 as a carapace fade.
Guys, the math in NS2 isn't really rocket science.
errr... yes, I acknowledged that I was wrong in the post above you...? I didn't spend the time looking for the numbers, though I was right about the lerk. It's a bit immaterial to this argument, though, as the shotgun can only OHK a skulk, which was the main point of my original post.
Comments
The shotgun doesn't steal the flamethrower and grenade launcher's role... those weapons are indirect AOE damage, mostly designed to be used against structures or for area denial. The grenade launcher is actually a great weapon, especially if you're defending an ARC push. It's just more expensive than a shotgun, which is why you don't see as many of them. You have to pay extra to upgrade the armory, then you have to spend the extra P-res to get it. Grenade launchers and flamethrowers also aren't as good against higher life forms, but they aren't supposed to be. They're support weapons.
make flamethrowers energy throttle more effective to actually be a treat for lerks and fades. now we have a clearer role for flamethrowers. make it cheaper like 15-20 res.
give whips a possibility to miss grenade whack, like 1 out of 5. or teach people to bounce the grenades to mess with grenade whack code. lol
you don't need GL's to defend arcs, you can't defend arcs from bilebomb threat that easily thats a contraversial role.
i made 4 of my friends play the game, hell i even payed for one of them. now non of them plays the game. in raidcall they always whined about certain classic FPS elements and brutallity of the game. and believe me those guys are ex hardcore players who played games like Ultima online where you could lost everything you got in a single fight. i mean they are familiar with hardcore nature of classic games.
How is it balanced that the side that gets flat wep/armor upgrades has a weapon that has the ability to 1-shot the other side's free unit while the other side does not have the same ability?
I know, asymmetry, but that doesn't address the fact that even something like the fade (which is the alien's best marine killing unit) doesn't 1-shot lvl 0 marines. How is it balanced that marines can run around 1-shotting cara skulks (not gonna bother addressing the other life-forms for the sake of simplicity) while aliens can not go around 1-shotting armor 0 marines even with their 75 res unit?
As far as the quality of the game, I believe that SGs are a major detraction. Every single comp game that you watch, they go SG and nothing else. There is not strategy, you always know that they are going SG since it is the best killing device. I believe that this only leads to a stale game in terms of strategy. Granted, there are other aspects of the game where strategy has a role and can be varied, but this will always be a constant unless the SG is changed or something happens to upset its role as super-alien-killing-gun.
Firstly i'd like to point out that there are very few asymmetrical FPS/RTS games like NS2, so to expect me to find an example of a one hit kill weapon in another comparable game similar to the shotgun in NS2 is unreasonable and in my opinion not a good defense for the point i was raising in that paragraph, which was that other one hit kill weapons have existed in FPS games for the past 20 or so years. In your 3rd post on this topic you stated;
" in a multiplayer game, no one must be get one shotted by any freaking means. its total frustration, poor design, poor mechanic."
that opinion is not shared by game developers throughout history, and I feel they are more qualified than yourself to say what is or isn't poor design.
You claim that the one hit kill weapons in cs,cod,hl & quake require extreme skill and come with extreme disadvantages. Lets break a few of the examples i gave down and compare them to the shotgun in NS2:
Energy Sword/Gravity Hammer (Halo):
In order to kill using these weapons you must be in close range to your target. to kill using the shotgun in NS2 you must be close to your target.
You lose the ability to attack at range. The shotgun in NS2 also removes the ability to attack at range
There is a cooldown between attacks. The shotgun in NS2 also has a cooldown between attacks
Sniper rifle (COD,BF3 etc).
You must score a direct hit on your target to kill them. In NS2 you must also score a direct hit with a shotgun to kill them, although there is a bullet spread that will damage enemies if you miss marginally
There is a cooldown between shots, just like NS2's shotgun
Knife (COD):
you must be in close range to kill using this weapon. just like the shotgun, though it is noted that most lifeforms must enter this range during combat.
There are no disadvantages to this weapon as it is supplementary to your ranged weapons, not true for the shotgun in NS2
Rocket Launcher/grenade launcher (COD):
Limited ammo.
1 hit kill by aiming at or near target. Skill requirement: Minimal - the shotgun must be a direct hit to kill
Chainsaw (gears of war):
Not the best example, as it is an attachment to another weapon
It requires to be in close range (like the shotgun)
It has a cooldown between attacks (like the shotgun)
It leaves you vulnerable to other attacks during the cooldown (the attack animation is the cooldown before it can be used again). the shotgun also leaves you vulnerable to attack between shots
Redeemer (Unreal Tournament)
Skill requirement is minimal. You shoot, everything in a massive radius of where it lands instantly dies, and if your aim is poor, you have the opportunity to take control of the rocket and guide it directly to the target.
Limited ammo
You claim that in NS2 the shotgun is one shotting in every occasion. this is false. you must score a direct hit at close range to kill the weakest lifeform (and only the weakest lifeform) in 1 shot. Again, lets break this down and go through the pro's and con's of the shotgun compared to other NS2 weapons.
Shotgun V Rifle Pro's
High burst damage resulting in the ability to one shot a skulk
Shotgun V Rifle Con's
Less Ammo
Can't engage effectively at range
Longer Reload time
Longer cooldown between shots
Costs P.Res
Less accurate
Lower DPS
Shotgun V Grenade launcher Pro's
More accurate
Damage dealt at point of shooting (rather than several seconds later)
Quicker reload
More Ammunition
Less expensive
Higher DPS?
Shotgun V Grenade launcher Con's
Lower burst damage
Less effective against structures
Smaller Area of effect area
Shotgun V Flamethrower Pro's
Higher DPS
Costs less
Quicker reload (if you consider each shell as a reload. reloading a clip takes substantially longer than the Flamethrower)
Shotgun V Flamethrower Con's
No Damage over time
Smaller area of effect area
Does not stop energy regeneration
Less ammo
Finally, I mentioned akimbo weapons in cod as an example of a skill-less weapon so you can see what skill-less really means. Those weapons have a high rate of fire, high damage, large bullet spread, quick reload and plenty of ammo. The shotgun in NS2 has a low rate of fire, high damage, medium bullet spread (largest in NS2), slow reload and reasonable amounts of ammo. I have pointed out above the various disadvantages the shotgun has to other NS2 weapons above...You claim there are none.
I did not say akimbo's are OP (although they probably are) or that an OP weapon in one game makes it ok in another.
I have died MANY times as a solo shotgunner fighting a skulk. Does this make me a bad player?
because of the brains involved; you can actually say that "I DIED BECAUSE I WAS CARELESS, I COULD AVOID THE THREAT BY OTHER MEANS" its acceptable because a mine is not a certain death, and is avoidable and it is also a perfect COUNTER FOR SKULKS, see the picture now? its fun... sentry is also a death sentence for a skulk but you can actually find a way to counter its effectiveness. . but there is just not FUN way to avoid a shotgunner, you walljump finger's crossed. Imagine the skill i suggested was in the game then you could say "if i could timed that trait properly there was a chance for me to kill him but i missed it"
Kespec, I think you need to either stop being a single file walker skulk, or stop playing against single file walker skulks.
No w3 will 1 shot a lerk....used to be 1 and a bit but now its 1...same as its now 2 shots to kill a fade.
It was heavily discussed a fgew patches ago when it happened...heck even I managed to 2 shot fades (and I can be an appalling shot)...the whole you cant 1 shot a lerk argument is no longer valid...it can and does happen (and not due to stray bullets...that used to be the case).
You used to be saved by about 2 armour points...which the damage increase a few patches ago demolished.
20 res per marine is not a lot of res...heck its what you start with...its only 20 res each...which is hardly a big expense.
Its funny that the balance mod has fades damage getting nerfed so it takes as many swipes as bites to kill a marine...yet marines have multiple ways to 1 shot multiple lifeforms...even with carapace.
The SG is a weapon that has almost 0 downside...the fixed spread makes it easier to shoot at long distances and land hits consistently.
Why can't you go on a rampage with the rifle? Or the flamethrower? Or with the GL? Oh yes, you can't one shot with those...
Do you know how the alien team felt, when they saw one guy going rambo on them and they couldn't do anything? They simply left the match...
And it's not only the "shotfun" the cause of many players to not have fun in this game and leave.
Don't get me wrong, the game must not be dumped down to please the more casual players. However, it really needs a better way to teach the players how to play properly. The punishments for mistakes must not feel like "almost-real-life-like" and they must teach you how to do better in such matter, that it provokes them to explore the mechanics behind the game.
I'm still having a blast playing the game but I can see that it needs to improve its relation with the new players and not hurl them into a meat grinder and expect them to stay and play more.
energy swords- same as above, irrelevant
redeemer- outright op, thank you for helping my idea.
Counters to the Redeemer
Many servers choose to replace the redeemer with a rocket launcher in their maps because of its power, and that the leading team will usually have exclusive access to the redeemer, making comebacks difficult.
1. thanks god you are not a game developer
2. leave those rookie servers and find real opponents instead of 5 hours-gameplay newbies
You cannot compare w3 shotguns to aliens with no carapace. Carapace has to be taken into account, because aliens will always have it in that situation. Not having carapace is the exception, not the rule. A carapace lerk has 275 effective hp, more than enough to take a full blast from the shotgun. A carapace fade, however, can be killed in 2 shots, but both of those shots have to be perfect.
If I have missed a patch note where they mentioned this reduction please link me.
A carapace lerk has 275 effective HP (125 plus 75 x 2 = 275) and a w3 shotgun damage currently at its all-time high deals 237 damage with a full shot. It isn't and has never been capable of one-shotting a carapace lerk. A non-carapace lerk, sure, with its 225 effective hp, but you cannot compare them.
There hasn't been any reduction, only an increase to the damage several patches past. Go test it in-game.
No, Roobubba, you can two-shot a fade since 2x237 is more than the effective hp of 450 as a carapace fade.
Guys, the math in NS2 isn't really rocket science.
Shotgun has higher DPS, you listed its decreased range twice by also listing its accuracy, and shotgun has higher effective ammo, not less.
Grenade Launcher is more accurate than the shotgun. Shotgun is not an area of effect weapon, it is a scatter weapon. Grenades can do full damage to multiple targets while shotgun has a set damage limit. And grenades detonate instantly on a direct hit, only a miss causes the timer.
Shotgun is still not an area of effect weapon. [I dont even know if flamethrower is either though. I would think it is, but it never feels that way in gameplay.] Energy regeneration is not stopped, it is only slowed. Shotgun still has more effective ammo.
Have a nice day. c: