I never had any reservation about kicking or banning people from my server (when I ran it) for repeatedly destroying the competitive fun that could be had in this game. The server never suffered as a result and at worst I would get a few random messages on here complaining about it. Granted, sometimes I would not be as blunt as just kicking, sometimes just manually switching the one good player to a team full of green tagged players vs all the other decent players just to get a point across would break someone of doing that. Creative approaches worked sometimes, and sometimes it would just cause rage, which provided another reason to remove them. Either way, what people look for first and foremost when playing on a server is the ability to have fun and enjoy themselves. If someone decided to become an obstacle to that, I would remove them. I really never cared what the reason was.
Think of it as training, you only get better by playing better players.
Best if you don't divide a already tiny community.
You completely miss the point. While it's true, getting crushed doesn't make you better, it discourages new players, making them leave. How good at the game is a player that uninstalled the game ?
When I open up my server browser, 75% of the servers that have people in it are green. Sometimes, we have no choice.
We're not having the same server list then. It's about 50/50, and well, if you know you'll crush rookie server, just don't go in there, even if that's 75% of your list, there are 25% to chose from. Or in @Virsoul 's case, wait 30 seconds and refresh the list, or queue for a server you like.
Just read through all the replies here - thanks very much for all for the useful feedback and discussion.
I think we're going to try a few things based on the replies:
- Putting up a visible MOTD where we can clearly list the objectives of the server with rules if needed (as suggested by Calego and others).
- In the MOTD - a notice against team stacking if 3+ clan members are dominating the server.
- In the MOTD - stressing the "rookie friendliness" of the server and of the clan in general.
- Banning arrogant or rude "elitists" if required - after a warning and a chance to help balance out the server (as suggested by AV_Ultima, hozz, Roobubba, Mavick, and others).
We have banned folks in the past for being arrogant asshats (we have at least one admin playing most times when the server is populated, we also monitor the chat remotely) but I think we might need to step it up a bit with warnings and banning if this keeps getting out of hand. If the server rules are clearly stated in the MOTD it should make our job a bit easier (no more "...but I didn't know!" type stuff).
I also want to clarify a quick point - a few of the nxzl guys were very helpful with the situation - bitey was open for discussion on the issue and we appreciated his input. We also had some very skilled players who jumped into the commander role on both sides so they won't dominate the server with their skills. So, overall, not a complete mess - we do have some very, very good players who care about rookies and the community.
...not everybody cares to be the best player. they just want to have fun in their hour session of gaming after they get off work.
I'd say this summarizes the view from our clan's gaming perspective. Most of us are more relaxed gamers who work enough during the day to want to chill with an enjoyable game in the evening.
There are times when I'm more or less forced to play on green servers, because there is no regular 14-18 player server with decent ping. If I see I totally own the other team I try to stick to more supportive roles like flamethrower/welder marine or gorge.
I also try to explain to obviously new players that get repeatedly killed by me what they were doing wrong (use shift-walk and ceilings as a Skulk, be conservative wiht your mag as a marine).
Just what happened to those many UWE official 16pnon-rookie server? They are empty most of the time now...
So if I open up the game one day and there is only one server with suitable ping and enough players, but it was a rookie server, you would rather I just not play. And if I did play, you would rather I limit myself. There comes a point in NS2 where I am not allowed to play the way I want and I have to cater to some one else?
Yes (there comes a point).
To be pedantic, there is no point where you are no longer "allowed" to do something (unless the server admin bans you which could count as not being "allowed" to do something).
But there is a point where you *should* not do something.
Actually, there is a point where you should want to not do something.
----
Social behavior isn't that someone behaves "good" against his will (for fear of punishment, or whatever), but that someone wants to behave "good" (no external motivation).
If someone can't do that and poses a problem, then he should be banned. The rest of the people owe him nothing more than he gives them.
Serious question: Is it wrong of me to think this is ridiculous?
Yes (it's wrong). It's not ridiculous, it's normal
----
To be fair, this is not against players being good.
Nothing is wrong with a good (like 30-5) kdr for a few games.
You can have wonderful games with people who are much better than the rest of the server.
But here's the point: these people "get" it.
They will (without anyone even saying anything) change teams, even multiple times in a game, to not have the balance topple and to keep the outcome open.
They will (without anyone even saying anything) distribute evenly between teams after the first game.
They will (without anyone even saying anything) give small hints to acknowledge they realize how other players might feel - a simple chat "O_o" after a certain situation, for example.
They will (without anyone even saying anything) leave the server, if necessary for the others.
And so on.
In short: they understand the situation of the other players, they will communicate that fact, they will act to the benefit of everyone (not only themselves), and most importantly they do it because they want to (no other motivation necessary, like being forced to behave by threat of ban).
Fine, some people may need a small hint ("Hey XXX, you're ruining the balance."), but at most once.
If an admin has to threaten a ban (unless it's the first thing that he says), usually it's already too late.
These people aren't the problem. Usually they even make the game better, because they bring more to the table.
The problem are the other ones.
They don't care about the situation of the other players, and that's why the do what they do.
They stack teams, repeatedly.
They show no sign of getting what's going on for the others (not for them!) and adapting their behavior.
When you have to ask them/complain, they get aggressive.
They abuse the chat/voice and insult others.
They make excuses instead of changing their behavior.
They have no shame. Actually, you may be able to shame them, but they feel no guilt.
These selfish/narcissistic behaviors are a problem and must be dealt with. In this case: ban those players.
I am sorry for being good at the game... I guess I should just go away then...
Just wondering, can you imagine a situation where you would leave a server because you are too good?
I can understand that, especially for really good players, it is frustrating when they are basically guaranteed to dominate every server they join, with all the problems that might create.
But in they end, this is their problem. Not everyone's. Everyone else can try to help (say something, be friendly,...) but there's only so much they can do.
And we started by talking about servers specifically designated rookie friendly!
@Pakars
It's not about you, it's about everyone.
You don't seem to get that.
You're not willing to adapt your behavior towards the others, unless you can do it "for free" without a downside for you:
I usually end(ed) up being one of those 30-0/40-0/50-0 superhero all-star pubdestroyers. Sometimes there's no non-green servers with a <200 ping that has any players, so I have to play on rookie servers or some random official server.
I don't have any remorse for wiping the floor with players that are worse than me, especially when all they do is hurl insults at me for being better than themselves.
When you have to ask them/complain, they get aggressive.
Nobody expects you to ignore being insulted for no good reason.
But:
Has the thought every occurred to you that those people are angry for a good reason? Maybe it's not because you are "being better than themselves", but because you ruin their game and you don't even realize it? Maybe you started everything? Is this thought something you can envision?
Your suggestion to not play isn't a valid one, because if you don't play some amount, you get rusty (protip: If you're committed to not being terrible, not playing is NOT a choice). I also refuse to intentionally go easy on bad players, because that's also a path to becoming worse at the game.
Translation: if I don't play, I get rusty.
Translation: I don't want to become worse at the game.
Other people don't exist in your consideration.
Why don't you initiate a pro pub server? You can still play and improve much faster than playing against "bad" players.
If there is a player that is being elitist and mocking bad players, then warn them, and kick them if they refuse to stop. If they are repeat offenders, only then should you ban them.
It's not only about people being obvious fucktards.
You can do nothing wrong and still pose a problem.
Because there are people other than you.
This is where your thought process really breaks down. Wow.
First of all, complaining that the NS2 community is kick/ban-happy even though there is not even a kick/ban option, and admins have to painstakingly do everything manually?
Consider this: maybe it's not the community, maybe it's you!
And the community hasn't shown you "respect" even after you have "gone to some lengths to give them respect".
Apparently you have NOT given them respect.
This is what you would get respect for, for example: not ruining people's games! There's plenty of "respect" (whatever this even means) to be had in the NS2 community, take a guess why you haven't got any.
Again: maybe it's not the community, maybe it's you?
Admins "going straight for the banhammer"...
Tip: they just treat you this way, not everyone. Take a guess why.
Before you say "people hate me because I'm too good". No, they don't. They have a problem with you because they realize, from your behavior, because you ruin their games, that you don't care about them.
So why should they care about you (aka not ban you as they wish)?
Consider the possibility that your bad experience is mostly your fault.
This is one of the best posts I've seen on these forums since I joined. I wish every good player would read it.
I know who you're talking about and he's a friend of mine
Here's the thing
There's NOWHERE for competitive players to go.
I am teamless, and have the intent of remaining so. I've been seasoned by years of fps and blah blah w/e no I'm not the best but I'm good, I know that (yeah sounds cocky, whatever)
When I load up NS2, usually the first thing I look for is balance test (since I prefer that version of ns2 at the moment) if I find nothing, I begin to look for another server, 16 slots or less, generally I'll never find that; I am fully against 18-24 player servers, but those are my only options at that point. And if those are empty, then I have 150 ping european servers with a bunch of people who also don't understand the game (can't help them as I've tried but european players just bad mouth you when you try and give them tips from my experience)
So ideally I'd want to pug/scrim, but I cannot do either and I still want to play ns2.. so what do I do? I turn off the rookie filter and find a green ping server near me and begin playing.. While it's no fun for you, it's also no fun for me because I'm a person who constantly tries to improve and only wants to face top tier players who will be equal to me or kick my ass
So I'm hoping with "sabot" to be the saving grace of this game and allow me to do pugging freely against people who will give me a real sense of challenge or whoop me. I'll be honest I haven't had an intense gaming match in a very long time. You know one where you REALLY want to win and even get nervous... yeah sadly enough games like halo 2 and 3 which are very slow paced console shooters were able to give me that via their matchmaking system.. or maybe I've just become so seasoned and calm that I never get that type of feeling anymore; so I could be wrong about this last aspect (I think I'm going off topic)
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Im sure you can give the server the name you want but this doesnt care. People joining servers with players on it.
Imagine a 18 slot server named "Only for ARC and Godar players" with 8 slots open.
You really think this prevent rookies from joining?
Im sure most of the rookies didnt know what an ARC-Players is. Maybe someone thats rides on an ARC? Hmm, who cares.
Serverrules are ok.
But rules are meant to be broken.
KasharicHull, EnglandJoin Date: 2013-03-27Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
I'm just going to add another example, simply through my experience last night.
While on my regular server (GamingDeluxe rookie friendly) we had 4 AsM players come in and stack... their reason for this was that they hadn't played in a while and were rusty... one of which hit 42/1 and 38/2... that to me is not rusty... but to be honest, the guy (I'm not naming anyone here because i dislike finger pointing) who got high kill/low death wasn't being an asshat about it. he was being encouraging to players who nearly killed him. offering pointers about how they could have won that engagement and telling them to stick at it as they would get better with time.
Their was however 1 person who (after I had asked them to not stack so we could have even games) started hurling verbal abuse at me. constant threats and profanity for about 10 minutes... HE was a complete asshat. his only none threatening comment was "why don't you want us to play with friends?".... well put simply, if you are playing on the same server together you are still playing with your friends even if you are not on the same team... what he meant was "We want to practice tactically raping people worse than us" but he was too much of a douchebag to admit it.
I have no problem playing with players better than me (about 99% of the NS2 playerbase :P ) But after 100+ hours I've never met someone as annoying as him... and his K/D wasn't much better than other peoples 8/5 10/3 8/6 etc.
I'm not a "dedicated" player... I play for fun... I don't practice game mechanics or "try to better myself" hence me continuing to play on a rookie server at 100+ hours, it matches my skill level. If i started to dominate I would move to a server where people wouldn't get upset playing against me. being crushed has never and will never teach me anything. playing against better players who comment and give feedback does help, but when they stack its pointless even trying.
as for individual pro players joining, as long as they aren't the kind of player to say "QQ somewhere else" or "if you don't like it, join a different server" then I'm okay with them being their... My K/D is pretty bad normally anyway. the second someone starts to ruin the fun for someone else they should be warned... if they don't take heed of the warning they should be banned.... pure and simple. Pro or not, obey the rules or be punished.
Because NS2 has this learning curve, this is a real concern.
It is true that a competitive player can ruin all the fun from the rest, taking rookies away from the game
It is true that a competitive palyer can get bored when he can't find any decent game to play (by his standard)
It is true that punishing a good player because he's good is a nonsense
It is true that dividing a small community is a risk
Here is a way I would see a possibility :
A fine system would allow players to record themsleves as New / Experienced / Competitive then server to advertise as open to New / Experienced / Competitive.
After that, the server wether refuse connexion to player that does not fit (tough) OR has a kickvote system for players not fitting the rank that popup from time to time in the game.
@ezekel
I'm wondering why there isn't a (bunch of) pro pub server(s) where really good players (TM) can meet? Like "EXPERTS ONLY".
Are there not enough possible players, regarding region or time constraints? Is this eventually a low NS2 playerbase problem?
Something else?
Also, well run server > any matchmaking, but maybe the matchmaking/whatever it is will help.
@Wake
I guess this is similar to what the "sabot" matchmaking thingie might do.
I think really the problem is that there are only two ways designate a server, that is rookie-friendly and normal.
Instead, there should be two settings. Rookies allowed - yes/no and Pros allowed - yes/no.
It should be clear on the server listing what those two settings are for each server. Because the language is "allowed" instead of "friendly" the admin will be perfectly justified in kicking/banning people who are too bad or too good.
There is one thing I worry about, and that is actually myself. I've been playing FPS since Quake and Counter-Strike beta. I played NS1 when it still had babblers. But even with all those years of experience, I still can't aim at a pro level. So in a game like NS2 I really know what I'm doing, but I usually don't get a good k/d ratio. BUT there are occasionally those games once every few months where I do just happen to be the best player on the server, and I get a pro-level score. Would I be mistaken for a pro and get booted from the server?
@ezekel
I'm wondering why there isn't a (bunch of) pro pub server(s) where really good players (TM) can meet? Like "EXPERTS ONLY".
Are there not enough possible players, regarding region or time constraints? Is this eventually a low NS2 playerbase problem?
Something else?
A few times now I've joined a server (sometimes alone, sometimes with a mate or two) and joined the opposite side from a couple of very good players stacking. Sometimes, they just don't like it! Suddenly they can't roflstomp any more, and they quickly leave. Had that happen more than a handful of times, now. It does give me quite a warm fuzzy feeling, it has to be said.
BUT there are occasionally those games once every few months where I do just happen to be the best player on the server, and I get a pro-level score. Would I be mistaken for a pro and get booted from the server?
No, I believe it's not really like that, at least not for our server. We have no problem with people doing really well and such - it's more people who are doing really well while being unhelpful to new players, arrogant, stacking, mocking, yelling at rookies, etc. etc. All the things you should try and avoid on a rookie-friendly server.
As hozz was noting earlier - you really have two classes of "pro" players - The ones who are very, very good but take the time to help others on a rookie-friendly server...and the ones who are very, very good but don't give a crap about anyone but themselves. Our server is beginning to fill with the second type much too often...
Because NS2 has this learning curve, this is a real concern.
It is true that a competitive player can ruin all the fun from the rest, taking rookies away from the game
It is true that a competitive palyer can get bored when he can't find any decent game to play (by his standard)
It is true that punishing a good player because he's good is a nonsense
It is true that dividing a small community is a risk
Here is a way I would see a possibility :
A fine system would allow players to record themsleves as New / Experienced / Competitive then server to advertise as open to New / Experienced / Competitive.
After that, the server wether refuse connexion to player that does not fit (tough) OR has a kickvote system for players not fitting the rank that popup from time to time in the game.
What do you think ?
Quake live has this with high skill w/e and you get to choose which one you are (also I believe they make you face some type of bot before you're allowed to play, and do a rocket jump map) Then it warns you when you're about to join a server with players above your skill level. And that system seems to have worked fine, however we can't really split players up like that.. imo
The playercount isn't crazy high, but there's enough people to get matches going, we're just on at different times on different servers. There isn't really any type of competitive pubs from what I've seen, I believe "keep calm and belly slide" is one of the few that attempts to do so. As for that I generally see everyone in sewleks balance mod, dedicated servers are great and all; but they can't compare to a set up match of players with equal skill. I was hoping sabot would remove all official servers and just use them for the pug system, while leaving the server browser only to community servers (which is better for them)
That only leads to the problem NS2 has - it needs leagues like Starcraft has, where similarly skilled people would meet similarly skilled people. Unbalanced, broken matches would be far less frequent, everyone would get more satisfaction from playing, and NS2 would be able to retain more players.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I do not see myself on any level of competitive play like bitey or fana but most of the time I am better then many rookies either. But I dwell on almost sooly rookie servers. Reasoning following soon.
Both sides have good points:
For:
* no other servers with good latency & not empty/full.
* best way to learn vs other players.
* Some (like me) are part of the mentor program. And would beat the point not to join rookie servers.
Against:
* hard to beat a team where a person goes 60-3
* long term stacking empties servers and gives a sour feel for the new folk.
* stuff I missed, surely more reasons.
Now as we can see its usually very helpful for a experienced player to go on a rookie server aslong as they try to prevent a gross inbalance. If rookies only ever see rookies, then they will hit a very big wall when they are according to the game no more a rookie. The gap between rookie and experienced player is already huge. The next gap between experienced player and comp player is just as huge.
So what can we do?
* play as a experienced player, not a comp player. Yes i know this can be hard, but if you are on a rookie server... slow down. Screw up some times on purpose for all I care.
* Go gorge.
* Go lifeforms with less then ideal or no upgrades. (its a form of practise aye?)
* Command.
* Do explain what they do wrong. (many are more accepting towards getting beat if you tell them how to beat you (and others).
* swap teams every round & ask them to stay on the same teams. (hard because the other team likely loses.
* grab a clan buddy a join different teams!
I would enjoy a veteran-only tag much more than a rookie-friendly tag. I remember All-in had that server for a little while with the title "NO SHITTIES" and there were some good games because the complete new players stayed away. The problem tho I think was it was usually empty cause the player base wasn't big enough to support it.
Also to address the "team stacking" thing, no one intentionally tries to ruin games with stacking. The majority of the time I want to play and chat and have fun with my friends, not play in silence against them. If I see 2 people on my friends list on the same server, I may join it. And I will want to play on their team cause they are my friends and we can work together. My friends and I will probably be the most skilled people on that server and their may be some lopsided games because of it. We are not "team stacking assholes" because of it, just a product of what is available to us.
I do not consider myself to be leet on the scale of competitive play. I'm in the west coast region and some times rookie friendly servers are the only servers with players playing. That's pretty much the only reason why I join a rookie friendly server, so I can play a game on a populated server with a ping at or below 30.
That only leads to the problem NS2 has - it needs leagues like Starcraft has, where similarly skilled people would meet similarly skilled people. Unbalanced, broken matches would be far less frequent, everyone would get more satisfaction from playing, and NS2 would be able to retain more players.
All well and good having a league, Problem is this game has 2k max players. It doesnt have the player count to support 3+ leagues of skill level
Just to be clear, I've never had a problem with good players joining my server. I know as well as anyone that there isn't necessarily an overabundance of servers out there for people to pick and choose ALL the time. In fact, there are quite a few really good players that have played on my server for months. The only good players I ever had a problem with were the ones who would play with no regard to the rest of the people on the server, i.e. repeatedly join teams they knew would be a steamroller, not switching teams when they realize what they've done, etc. And even then, just simply moving them yourself can avoid further problems. If they voiced an attitude after that point, well, there was just no place for them on the server imo.
Furthermore, I have never and will never buy into the "you only get better by playing against better people" argument. It's a true statement, no doubt. But what's overlooked by that argument is the fact there's undoubtedly far more people who don't join a server for a "learning experience". 5 years ago I would I would be all over that fence when I actually did care about competitive gaming. I simply just don't anymore, so I see both sides of the fence. Most people simply play to have fun, and that's it. If that goal can't be accomplished, then it's in the admins lap to either fix it or not.
Besides the fact that will always be someone better at the game than you (and players you will always be better than), NS2 was in beta for a very long time and many of us have played for quite some time before release. So its inevetiable that there will be this wide gap in skill.
It would be a real shame knowing that if im having a really good game I risk getting banned. Hopefully admins can see how absurd this line of thinking is.
I really don't know how the "rookie friendly" label was perverted into meaning "rookie only"... The rookie friendly servers were put in place so new people would have places to go and learn without getting banned from the server for being bad at the game. They aren't supposed to be rookie only zones.
Having rookie only servers is actually somewhat dangerous to the community, imo. They reinforce bad behavior and the players never really learn how to play the game. For example, go into a couple rookie servers and do something like get armor 1 before phase tech, or cara instead of celerity, and watch how hard people rage. The whole idea behind a rookie only server is just kind of silly... you wanna learn the game you gotta play with people who know wtf they're doing.
Life isn't fair all the time, it's a reality that remains true even in video games. I'd rather piss off the one person having a good game then half the server that is trying to. Hopefully you can see the logic in that, it's not absurd in the least.
Players have the luxury of joining a server and not giving a second thought to gameplay balance. Admins do not have that luxury, therefor the lines of reasoning just aren't the same. What you see as "absurd" becomes a necessity for us to maintain a server with players willing to return to it.
I know who you're talking about and he's a friend of mine
Here's the thing
There's NOWHERE for competitive players to go.
I am teamless, and have the intent of remaining so. I've been seasoned by years of fps and blah blah w/e no I'm not the best but I'm good, I know that (yeah sounds cocky, whatever)
When I load up NS2, usually the first thing I look for is balance test (since I prefer that version of ns2 at the moment) if I find nothing, I begin to look for another server, 16 slots or less, generally I'll never find that; I am fully against 18-24 player servers, but those are my only options at that point. And if those are empty, then I have 150 ping european servers with a bunch of people who also don't understand the game (can't help them as I've tried but european players just bad mouth you when you try and give them tips from my experience)
I stopped there. Geographical discrimination, that's a huge low.
Serverrules are ok.
But rules are meant to be broken.
Motivational phrases are so deep. Rules are meant to be broken, I'll push people on the rails next time I go in a train station because hey, rules are meant to be broken.
Says the dude with internet access and the luxury of playing video games regularly. I'd suggest you to tell that to people dying on a daily basis on hunger ? You guys with the general wisdom are wonderful; never change the way you are.
Having rookie only servers is actually somewhat dangerous to the community, imo. They reinforce bad behavior and the players never really learn how to play the game.
And that's one another entirely fallacious argument; if people needed to be crushed by better player to get better, how the hell did the first players get better ? Don't boil your brain on that, the answer is that you don't need better players to get players, that's just one way among others. You can improve your game by practising on people of your skill or lower, and depending on your personality or playstyle, that can be the best way to improve.
I have a no-green server rule, but sometimes end up on them because there's literally nowhere else to go. Sometimes I grab a few friends and sit in a server with 3 players hoping to fill it. If teams are massively weighted I will go gorge/khaam or only use my pistol. I know there are some real buttholes out there who enjoy going 60/1 against new skulks running in straight lines, but I don't think the nxzl guys fit in that category.
I have seen some clans invade servers and all stack a team - and that's a really crappy thing to do (even worse if you are smurfing). That, I will agree, is a problem. An admin can easily fix that and is in the right to do so.
"Says the dude with internet access and the luxury of playing video games regularly. I'd suggest you to tell that to people dying on a daily basis on hunger ? You guys with the general wisdom are wonderful; never change the way you are."
Did you just absolutely feel the need to stand on your pedestal and point this out to me, in a discussion that is light years away from this sad fact, or what? I'm sure somewhere there's an orchestra playing the praises for your brave championing of the underfed civilizations of the world.
As hozz was noting earlier - you really have two classes of "pro" players - The ones who are very, very good but take the time to help others on a rookie-friendly server...and the ones who are very, very good but don't give a crap about anyone but themselves. Our server is beginning to fill with the second type much too often...
in my experience of playing many other FPS's competitively, the second type of player you describe is typically a "newly good" person (ie they found a new game with a small enough playerbase that they can be labeled as 'good'), were never 'top level' at another game, or are new at competition in general [refer back to 'newly good']. looking back, the players who have a history of being at the top of a competitive scene tend to already be over the ego phase and go out of their way to help newer players.
Actually, yes, it is a conclusion of sorts. I'm concluding you really didn't have anything relevant to refute what I said so you resorted to turning it into a morality issue, of which I'm going to have no part because it's a ridiculous comment to start with. Life not being fair does apply to video games as well. World hunger, just doesn't.
Nah I agree with the rest of your post, aka ban the game destroyers. I just loved that piece of wisdom among others that I quoted. Internet wisdom, love it.
Comments
You completely miss the point. While it's true, getting crushed doesn't make you better, it discourages new players, making them leave. How good at the game is a player that uninstalled the game ?
We're not having the same server list then. It's about 50/50, and well, if you know you'll crush rookie server, just don't go in there, even if that's 75% of your list, there are 25% to chose from. Or in @Virsoul 's case, wait 30 seconds and refresh the list, or queue for a server you like.
Just read through all the replies here - thanks very much for all for the useful feedback and discussion.
I think we're going to try a few things based on the replies:
- Putting up a visible MOTD where we can clearly list the objectives of the server with rules if needed (as suggested by Calego and others).
- In the MOTD - a notice against team stacking if 3+ clan members are dominating the server.
- In the MOTD - stressing the "rookie friendliness" of the server and of the clan in general.
- Banning arrogant or rude "elitists" if required - after a warning and a chance to help balance out the server (as suggested by AV_Ultima, hozz, Roobubba, Mavick, and others).
We have banned folks in the past for being arrogant asshats (we have at least one admin playing most times when the server is populated, we also monitor the chat remotely) but I think we might need to step it up a bit with warnings and banning if this keeps getting out of hand. If the server rules are clearly stated in the MOTD it should make our job a bit easier (no more "...but I didn't know!" type stuff).
I also want to clarify a quick point - a few of the nxzl guys were very helpful with the situation - bitey was open for discussion on the issue and we appreciated his input. We also had some very skilled players who jumped into the commander role on both sides so they won't dominate the server with their skills. So, overall, not a complete mess - we do have some very, very good players who care about rookies and the community.
I'd say this summarizes the view from our clan's gaming perspective. Most of us are more relaxed gamers who work enough during the day to want to chill with an enjoyable game in the evening.
I also try to explain to obviously new players that get repeatedly killed by me what they were doing wrong (use shift-walk and ceilings as a Skulk, be conservative wiht your mag as a marine).
Just what happened to those many UWE official 16pnon-rookie server? They are empty most of the time now...
Here's the thing
There's NOWHERE for competitive players to go.
I am teamless, and have the intent of remaining so. I've been seasoned by years of fps and blah blah w/e no I'm not the best but I'm good, I know that (yeah sounds cocky, whatever)
When I load up NS2, usually the first thing I look for is balance test (since I prefer that version of ns2 at the moment) if I find nothing, I begin to look for another server, 16 slots or less, generally I'll never find that; I am fully against 18-24 player servers, but those are my only options at that point. And if those are empty, then I have 150 ping european servers with a bunch of people who also don't understand the game (can't help them as I've tried but european players just bad mouth you when you try and give them tips from my experience)
So ideally I'd want to pug/scrim, but I cannot do either and I still want to play ns2.. so what do I do? I turn off the rookie filter and find a green ping server near me and begin playing.. While it's no fun for you, it's also no fun for me because I'm a person who constantly tries to improve and only wants to face top tier players who will be equal to me or kick my ass
So I'm hoping with "sabot" to be the saving grace of this game and allow me to do pugging freely against people who will give me a real sense of challenge or whoop me. I'll be honest I haven't had an intense gaming match in a very long time. You know one where you REALLY want to win and even get nervous... yeah sadly enough games like halo 2 and 3 which are very slow paced console shooters were able to give me that via their matchmaking system.. or maybe I've just become so seasoned and calm that I never get that type of feeling anymore; so I could be wrong about this last aspect (I think I'm going off topic)
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Imagine a 18 slot server named "Only for ARC and Godar players" with 8 slots open.
You really think this prevent rookies from joining?
Im sure most of the rookies didnt know what an ARC-Players is. Maybe someone thats rides on an ARC? Hmm, who cares.
Serverrules are ok.
But rules are meant to be broken.
While on my regular server (GamingDeluxe rookie friendly) we had 4 AsM players come in and stack... their reason for this was that they hadn't played in a while and were rusty... one of which hit 42/1 and 38/2... that to me is not rusty... but to be honest, the guy (I'm not naming anyone here because i dislike finger pointing) who got high kill/low death wasn't being an asshat about it. he was being encouraging to players who nearly killed him. offering pointers about how they could have won that engagement and telling them to stick at it as they would get better with time.
Their was however 1 person who (after I had asked them to not stack so we could have even games) started hurling verbal abuse at me. constant threats and profanity for about 10 minutes... HE was a complete asshat. his only none threatening comment was "why don't you want us to play with friends?".... well put simply, if you are playing on the same server together you are still playing with your friends even if you are not on the same team... what he meant was "We want to practice tactically raping people worse than us" but he was too much of a douchebag to admit it.
I have no problem playing with players better than me (about 99% of the NS2 playerbase :P ) But after 100+ hours I've never met someone as annoying as him... and his K/D wasn't much better than other peoples 8/5 10/3 8/6 etc.
I'm not a "dedicated" player... I play for fun... I don't practice game mechanics or "try to better myself" hence me continuing to play on a rookie server at 100+ hours, it matches my skill level. If i started to dominate I would move to a server where people wouldn't get upset playing against me. being crushed has never and will never teach me anything. playing against better players who comment and give feedback does help, but when they stack its pointless even trying.
as for individual pro players joining, as long as they aren't the kind of player to say "QQ somewhere else" or "if you don't like it, join a different server" then I'm okay with them being their... My K/D is pretty bad normally anyway. the second someone starts to ruin the fun for someone else they should be warned... if they don't take heed of the warning they should be banned.... pure and simple. Pro or not, obey the rules or be punished.
It is true that a competitive player can ruin all the fun from the rest, taking rookies away from the game
It is true that a competitive palyer can get bored when he can't find any decent game to play (by his standard)
It is true that punishing a good player because he's good is a nonsense
It is true that dividing a small community is a risk
Here is a way I would see a possibility :
A fine system would allow players to record themsleves as New / Experienced / Competitive then server to advertise as open to New / Experienced / Competitive.
After that, the server wether refuse connexion to player that does not fit (tough) OR has a kickvote system for players not fitting the rank that popup from time to time in the game.
What do you think ?
Wow, thanks ;;)
@ezekel
I'm wondering why there isn't a (bunch of) pro pub server(s) where really good players (TM) can meet? Like "EXPERTS ONLY".
Are there not enough possible players, regarding region or time constraints? Is this eventually a low NS2 playerbase problem?
Something else?
Also, well run server > any matchmaking, but maybe the matchmaking/whatever it is will help.
@Wake
I guess this is similar to what the "sabot" matchmaking thingie might do.
Instead, there should be two settings. Rookies allowed - yes/no and Pros allowed - yes/no.
It should be clear on the server listing what those two settings are for each server. Because the language is "allowed" instead of "friendly" the admin will be perfectly justified in kicking/banning people who are too bad or too good.
There is one thing I worry about, and that is actually myself. I've been playing FPS since Quake and Counter-Strike beta. I played NS1 when it still had babblers. But even with all those years of experience, I still can't aim at a pro level. So in a game like NS2 I really know what I'm doing, but I usually don't get a good k/d ratio. BUT there are occasionally those games once every few months where I do just happen to be the best player on the server, and I get a pro-level score. Would I be mistaken for a pro and get booted from the server?
A few times now I've joined a server (sometimes alone, sometimes with a mate or two) and joined the opposite side from a couple of very good players stacking. Sometimes, they just don't like it! Suddenly they can't roflstomp any more, and they quickly leave. Had that happen more than a handful of times, now. It does give me quite a warm fuzzy feeling, it has to be said.
No, I believe it's not really like that, at least not for our server. We have no problem with people doing really well and such - it's more people who are doing really well while being unhelpful to new players, arrogant, stacking, mocking, yelling at rookies, etc. etc. All the things you should try and avoid on a rookie-friendly server.
As hozz was noting earlier - you really have two classes of "pro" players - The ones who are very, very good but take the time to help others on a rookie-friendly server...and the ones who are very, very good but don't give a crap about anyone but themselves. Our server is beginning to fill with the second type much too often...
Quake live has this with high skill w/e and you get to choose which one you are (also I believe they make you face some type of bot before you're allowed to play, and do a rocket jump map) Then it warns you when you're about to join a server with players above your skill level. And that system seems to have worked fine, however we can't really split players up like that.. imo
@hozz
The playercount isn't crazy high, but there's enough people to get matches going, we're just on at different times on different servers. There isn't really any type of competitive pubs from what I've seen, I believe "keep calm and belly slide" is one of the few that attempts to do so. As for that I generally see everyone in sewleks balance mod, dedicated servers are great and all; but they can't compare to a set up match of players with equal skill. I was hoping sabot would remove all official servers and just use them for the pug system, while leaving the server browser only to community servers (which is better for them)
Both sides have good points:
For:
* no other servers with good latency & not empty/full.
* best way to learn vs other players.
* Some (like me) are part of the mentor program. And would beat the point not to join rookie servers.
Against:
* hard to beat a team where a person goes 60-3
* long term stacking empties servers and gives a sour feel for the new folk.
* stuff I missed, surely more reasons.
Now as we can see its usually very helpful for a experienced player to go on a rookie server aslong as they try to prevent a gross inbalance. If rookies only ever see rookies, then they will hit a very big wall when they are according to the game no more a rookie. The gap between rookie and experienced player is already huge. The next gap between experienced player and comp player is just as huge.
So what can we do?
* play as a experienced player, not a comp player. Yes i know this can be hard, but if you are on a rookie server... slow down. Screw up some times on purpose for all I care.
* Go gorge.
* Go lifeforms with less then ideal or no upgrades. (its a form of practise aye?)
* Command.
* Do explain what they do wrong. (many are more accepting towards getting beat if you tell them how to beat you (and others).
* swap teams every round & ask them to stay on the same teams. (hard because the other team likely loses.
* grab a clan buddy a join different teams!
Also to address the "team stacking" thing, no one intentionally tries to ruin games with stacking. The majority of the time I want to play and chat and have fun with my friends, not play in silence against them. If I see 2 people on my friends list on the same server, I may join it. And I will want to play on their team cause they are my friends and we can work together. My friends and I will probably be the most skilled people on that server and their may be some lopsided games because of it. We are not "team stacking assholes" because of it, just a product of what is available to us.
Furthermore, I have never and will never buy into the "you only get better by playing against better people" argument. It's a true statement, no doubt. But what's overlooked by that argument is the fact there's undoubtedly far more people who don't join a server for a "learning experience". 5 years ago I would I would be all over that fence when I actually did care about competitive gaming. I simply just don't anymore, so I see both sides of the fence. Most people simply play to have fun, and that's it. If that goal can't be accomplished, then it's in the admins lap to either fix it or not.
It would be a real shame knowing that if im having a really good game I risk getting banned. Hopefully admins can see how absurd this line of thinking is.
Having rookie only servers is actually somewhat dangerous to the community, imo. They reinforce bad behavior and the players never really learn how to play the game. For example, go into a couple rookie servers and do something like get armor 1 before phase tech, or cara instead of celerity, and watch how hard people rage. The whole idea behind a rookie only server is just kind of silly... you wanna learn the game you gotta play with people who know wtf they're doing.
Players have the luxury of joining a server and not giving a second thought to gameplay balance. Admins do not have that luxury, therefor the lines of reasoning just aren't the same. What you see as "absurd" becomes a necessity for us to maintain a server with players willing to return to it.
I stopped there. Geographical discrimination, that's a huge low.
Motivational phrases are so deep. Rules are meant to be broken, I'll push people on the rails next time I go in a train station because hey, rules are meant to be broken.
Says the dude with internet access and the luxury of playing video games regularly. I'd suggest you to tell that to people dying on a daily basis on hunger ? You guys with the general wisdom are wonderful; never change the way you are.
And that's one another entirely fallacious argument; if people needed to be crushed by better player to get better, how the hell did the first players get better ? Don't boil your brain on that, the answer is that you don't need better players to get players, that's just one way among others. You can improve your game by practising on people of your skill or lower, and depending on your personality or playstyle, that can be the best way to improve.
I have seen some clans invade servers and all stack a team - and that's a really crappy thing to do (even worse if you are smurfing). That, I will agree, is a problem. An admin can easily fix that and is in the right to do so.
Did you just absolutely feel the need to stand on your pedestal and point this out to me, in a discussion that is light years away from this sad fact, or what? I'm sure somewhere there's an orchestra playing the praises for your brave championing of the underfed civilizations of the world.
in my experience of playing many other FPS's competitively, the second type of player you describe is typically a "newly good" person (ie they found a new game with a small enough playerbase that they can be labeled as 'good'), were never 'top level' at another game, or are new at competition in general [refer back to 'newly good']. looking back, the players who have a history of being at the top of a competitive scene tend to already be over the ego phase and go out of their way to help newer players.