Competitive Players on "Rookie Friendly" Servers
tk-421
Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58315Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58315Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Hey folks,
Just something we've been dealing with for a while and I'd like some feedback from the community on this issue.
We (TCO) run a rookie friendly server where we try to be *exceptionally* welcoming to new players of NS2 and foster a helpful and friendly community. Every once in a while (and with increasing frequency) we've been having a few competitive players join our server and completely destroy whichever opposing team they play against.
Now I very, very much want to avoid banning people who are "too good" for our server. That idea is ridiculous. But, on the other hand, we've had a few nxzl players (and other top clans) in here just completely dominate enemy teams without any regard to balanced gameplay or a "good time" for anyone else on the server.
My question, I suppose, is why are some of you (and I know a bunch of you who are on our server read this forum) un-filtering "rookie friendly" servers and completely dominating the people who are just trying to learn the game? You are shooting the community in the foot. AND everytime we even slightly attempt to address this issue on the server we are repeatedly mocked and harassed by "upstanding" members of the community.
So apart from looking up the Steam ID's of competitive teams in the NS2 community and outright banning most of them - I'm asking you all - WTF? Is this just something the NS2 community is content with doing? Are we going to alienate new players from our community?
PS - And for those who will say "Rookie friendly" != "Rookie Only" - fine. But I would hope at least some of you would be considerate and join non-rookie friendly servers for a better challenge and to let new people have a chance at this game. If we have to go to the ridiculous lengths of banning tournament players from our server, I guess we will.
Just something we've been dealing with for a while and I'd like some feedback from the community on this issue.
We (TCO) run a rookie friendly server where we try to be *exceptionally* welcoming to new players of NS2 and foster a helpful and friendly community. Every once in a while (and with increasing frequency) we've been having a few competitive players join our server and completely destroy whichever opposing team they play against.
Now I very, very much want to avoid banning people who are "too good" for our server. That idea is ridiculous. But, on the other hand, we've had a few nxzl players (and other top clans) in here just completely dominate enemy teams without any regard to balanced gameplay or a "good time" for anyone else on the server.
My question, I suppose, is why are some of you (and I know a bunch of you who are on our server read this forum) un-filtering "rookie friendly" servers and completely dominating the people who are just trying to learn the game? You are shooting the community in the foot. AND everytime we even slightly attempt to address this issue on the server we are repeatedly mocked and harassed by "upstanding" members of the community.
So apart from looking up the Steam ID's of competitive teams in the NS2 community and outright banning most of them - I'm asking you all - WTF? Is this just something the NS2 community is content with doing? Are we going to alienate new players from our community?
PS - And for those who will say "Rookie friendly" != "Rookie Only" - fine. But I would hope at least some of you would be considerate and join non-rookie friendly servers for a better challenge and to let new people have a chance at this game. If we have to go to the ridiculous lengths of banning tournament players from our server, I guess we will.
Comments
Best if you don't divide a already tiny community.
Most of the above mentioned types of players can quite adequately confront each other in a Rookie server, and an average of fights will be interesting and tense for both sides. On average, the players are equal. And when there are no outstanding players, everything is all right, all in the hands of the players. Average kills\deaths ratio is 0.5\1\2\3\4\5 ... but sometimes they come ... unstoppable players with 700+ hours on ns2, having kills\deaths ratio over 8\9\10. It is nearly impossible to stop such a player. I think each player is faced with a similar situation: 16 players on the server, 10-15 minutes for a round. 15 players has kills-deaths like 15-10, 10-2, 8-4, 5-5, 3-7, nothing special ... and there are a super-hero on first place with 30 kills and 3 deaths. These players spoil the game to all the other players on the server. Only this player plays the game. He wins the game. The other players for him just a small obstacle. Seriously? do you think this rule works in shooter?! I think you can only train in hiding and avoiding enemy players if you have pr0player in opposite team. Or you will be one-shooted and dead in a second.
If I were you, I'd make it lighthearted.
"Yo man, you are too pro for us. For now on you are only allowed to use Pistol/Gorge."
Or, just kick them with a message: "sry man, we suck and are trying to learn the game, come back some other day." ("you" versus "I/we" language)
Do this rather than strong ultimatums like "we don't like skilled players and they shall be banned."
there's a breaking point, though.
I find it difficult that you can't find a non-rookie server. I have it set to filter rookie servers and I get a list of about 8+ that are populated at any given time I search (still a low amount, but enough to find one to join). We're probably playing at different times, I guess. If you do join a rookie server, the least you could do is command or even just do pistol only if needed and help new players. if you ruin the gaming experience of new players, your problem of not finding any non-rookie servers is going to continue.
I'm in here right now under a new alias listening to a nxzl mock our attempt to run a rookie friendly server and it's fairly disheartening. I really, really don't want to ban competitive players because it's ridiculous...but if we have to, we have to.
If you don't want top tier player to join your server, try labeling it "new players" or something to make it clear that you don't want people who've been playing since beta to be stomping on there. Also, if an admin or a player asks me to leave a server I usually oblige if there is another server that I'm able to play on.
Example: http://i.imgur.com/wyzIHP6.jpg
Where am I suppose to go?
If every server admin took the same mentality as you, I would be banned from every server I join. I rarely play horribly and I am not going to play bad on purpose. Again, rookie server or not, its all the same players.
EDIT: I think the best thing to do is ban the meanies. Us good players have to admit, sometimes we are a bunch of annoying people; including myself. Any admins out there, just warn us to chill out, and if we keep being elitist, ban us. Sound good?
EDIT2: Language...
We actually sat down with nxzl.bitey in the ready room and discussed this. We had a 5-10 minute conversation about this problem and bitey suggested we name our server "casual gaming". So...we had a clan discussion and agreed that the best way to declare our intentions was to label our server "casual gaming", which we did. Apart from the name change we also remind these competitive players that it is, indeed, a rookie-friendly server.
Again, still have the problem. I'm in here right now with people not doing any of the helpful things you are suggesting and just completely destroying players. Not only completely destroying players, but mocking the anyone in here who questions their gaming prowess or abilities. It's disgusting.
How is it ridiculous? It's your server and you can do whatever you want with it. If you play this for fun, and your definition of "having fun" is never playing people with higher than x/y KDR, then the only solution I see is to ban them. Why did you come here to whine about them? Do you think they give any fraction of a damn about how anyone feels except themselves? That is an extremely poor assumption to make in online gaming.
This is inevitable. There is always some one better than the last. This is the internet. Not sure if there is anything you can really do about this situation. Even if there was a way to regulate by hours played, there will still be individuals that dominate. Just how it is.
This is the first game i've ever played where they want to keep out the elite, it's quite disturbing.
When i first started Counter-Strike after playing multitude of FPS before hand, i only wanted to play against the best and did so, I was forced into good habits to pull off any kind of decent score & learnt twice as quick as my mate who was pubbing with bads. Only casual randoms with 100 hours of ns2 want to be in these servers.
nezz
I came here to "whine about them" because it's the general discussion for the community and I was hoping to get some opinions and feedback.
OK. What are your thoughts on our opinions?
Edit: The only exception would be comming. Let non-rookies in rookie-only servers, but they can only comm.
Rookie friendly means that people on the servers are supposed to behave in a way so rookies can enjoy the game and learn in a friendly environment.
A "pro" player dominating the entire enemy team with 50-0 kdr prevents both from happening.
If a "pro" joins a rookie server and commands, gives tips, spectates, whatever - that's fine. He can be "pro" and still behave rookie friendly, by intentionally limiting his/her influence so there is no problem for the other players. If he can't do that, he has to go.
Immediately rushing for a shotgun and then going on a solo rambo mission (which is what they do when you notice it) is a problem, because it's the opposite of rookie friendly.
So ban them. The end.
See? They don't care about the people on your server, they only care about themselves (this is plain and simple narcissism. protip for these people: not playing is also a choice).
Why should you care about them?
TLDR: Banning is totally fine when you have a good reason for it. You have a very good reason. So do it. I don't even understand why you would hesitate to do so...
However, if someone is being elitist while stomping players, then you should definitely ban them.
Was bluntly written in the first line of my post and re-stated in better ways by Hozz above, these people don't want to help rookies or can be reasoned with they do it to get kicks out of stacking the odds completely in their favour and bad mouthing people, unlike yourself I'm not interested in nut hugging competitive players in a dead game I'd rather see them for what they are 90% of the time, wastes of oxygen and bandwidth.
Serious question: Is it wrong of me to think this is ridiculous?
I understand that if some one is being plain mean, you should get rid of them, but just simply doing good is no reason to rebuke a player. When I go to a new game and I get wrecked, I try to learn from what has happened to me. If I desire to continue to play the game, I watch and learn from the "better" players. I do not complain and whine because, if I actually cared, I will soon be as skilled or higher skilled as this better player.
I do not think I have ever complained about some one beating me in an online game and wanted them to leave. I do not want to play with noobs who know nothing like myself, I want to know what this better player is doing to get a 5 KDR!
when your team is getting destroyed by the other, that isn't fun for half of the players on the server. you people keep talking about "hai guise when i was playin cs i only wanted 2 play agains da best so i could b da bess", but you don't seem to understand that, surprisingly, not everybody cares to be the best player. they just want to have fun in their hour session of gaming after they get off work.
I can respect that.
All the more reason this game needs a better way to separate these different types of players.
They clan stack servers with no one good around and shit talk the people in them on all chat and mumble, there's your secret to pub success.
Is it ridiculous to ask that people find servers that players of their skill level typically congregate? Is it ridiculous to ask that comp players don't try hard on rookie servers? Is it too much to ask from clans that if 4-5 of them join a server that 4- 5 of them don't join the same team to balance it out?
Seems that way.
I did not realize that is what you were getting at. I was giving examples from an individual stand point. If you join servers with 4-5 team members and stack, then yes, that is pretty lame. You do not learn anything from that. If you join the game with friends, try to spread yourselves out. It is much more fun that way.
Sometimes there's no non-green servers with a <200 ping that has any players, so I have to play on rookie servers or some random official server. If I happen to meet another good player, I almost always join the other team.
I only have ~300 hours played, only a little more than an hour a day. I don't have any remorse for wiping the floor with players that are worse than me, especially when all they do is hurl insults at me for being better than themselves. I often take the time to answer honest questions that rookies ask, and help them to learn to play better.
Maybe some of us enjoy being good at the game. Your suggestion to not play isn't a valid one, because if you don't play some amount, you get rusty (protip: If you're committed to not being terrible, not playing is NOT a choice). I also refuse to intentionally go easy on bad players, because that's also a path to becoming worse at the game. If there is a player that is being elitist and mocking bad players, then warn them, and kick them if they refuse to stop. If they are repeat offenders, only then should you ban them.
<rant>
For the most part, I've given up on standard NS2 and been playing combat, because the community is one of the most kick/ban-happy communities I've played in. In the past, I've enjoyed a good number of kicks for being a jerk(What can I say, I got into the habit of shit-talking on CS). With that in mind, I'd removed my mic and only spoke positively and when spoken to(no cursing, no shit-talking, etc). What happened? I still got kicked, presumably for being too good, because I hadn't said a single harsh word. Even on non-rookie-friendly servers, getting kicked has been a problem for me.
I'm probably going to end up not playing NS2 at all anymore because the community hasn't shown me respect even after I've gone to some lengths to give them respect. Most admins I've met have never, EVER, asked me to leave or given me a warning for anything. They've always gone straight to the B& hammer and removed me by force. Overall, I would say that interacting with NS2 server admins has almost been the worst I've ever dealt with, and I have played a hell of a lot of online video games(The experience is possibly on par with the almost-legendary World of Warcraft "This is not an all-you-can eat buffet" in response to honest beta feedback that ended up getting ignored and ruining class balance for half a year).
</rant>
When someone as skilled as you plays against rookies and low-skilled pub players, you can't lose and they can't win.
Why would you want to play a game you can't lose?
Why would you expect anyone would want to play a game they can't win?
Never hesitate to ban a$$holes from your server.
Perhaps a MOTD with some basic rules of "rookie friendly"-ness? Then, you can say they were warned about what behavior was acceptable, and then kick/ban them.
Bit of a sidetrack from where this conversation started but I figure I should share.
Exhibit A
From our long lost brother called the Steam Community discussions. The very fact that posts like these exist is reason to worry IMO.
We all know this game is tough. We all know you gotta work hard to get decent, let alone good at NS2. But they don't necessarily know that. Throwing the rookies up against pros is like sending a pug team against Arc on a good day. The losing team doesn't learn much, if anything, and all they want to do is quit. Even one carrying teammate can make stuff sour. If your team is stomping, don't draw it out whatever you do. Just end it.
I understand that the server list is saturated with rookie friendly servers. But there isn't much we as players can do about it. Maybe get some regulars together and try to convince your local admin to take off the tag. But there's no real guarantee.
If you and a bunch of friends are looking for a game, consider starting up a non-rookie friendly server. Most servers start filling up rapidly after the first 4-6 people join.
I think this shows a very positive attitude from all sides that you can openly and frankly discuss the issue with bitey. Clearly his suggestion for naming the server is a good one, which you did. The next stage is to ensure you have a rule visible when players join, along the lines of 'no rookie stomping', ensure that admins warn players (eg 'Roo, you're stomping us, would you mind either commanding or leaving please as we're a rookie-oriented casual gaming server') before they kick, and if that doesn't work, kick and/or ban as required.
As others have said, it's your server to run as you please. You pay for it, you put the time into maintenance and running and adminning. I ran a variety of servers for ns1 and other games a few years ago, and I know what a thankless task it can be at times, BUT: when you get it right and build up a community of like-minded players, it can be awesome. I'm still meeting up with players I've not seen for 10 years who were regs on my ns1 NTFM server. I made quite a few real life friendships from that server, too. I found it rewarding, and the overwhelming comments I got from players were positive. My rules there were essentially about teamwork and not being an idiot/abusive/racist etc.
I would argue that abusing or smack talking (if not obviously in jest) doesn't do anything to help atmosphere on a server. Give a warning then bring out the kick-then-ban tools, whoever it is doing the offending. Your regular players will thank you for making the server a more fun place to play, and over time the moronic people will learn to avoid your server (or won't be able to join).
I'm absolutely sure from what contact I have had with nexzil players that they in no way mean to offend or roflstomp newbies. They do a LOT for this community in many different levels, and the fact that bitey took the time to sit down with you to help you work out a way forward says a lot. It's sad, but some people get off on impersonating clanned players, then acting like cretins to give that clan a bad name. I'm not saying that has definitely happened here, but it's something to be wary of, especially after posting on these forums. There are some extremely childish people lurking on here as well, unfortunately.
Finally, I want to say thanks for dedicating a server to training and nurturing of new players. It's a really positive thing for the community as a whole. Not all players will want that environment (I prefer to be thrown in at the deep end, and I love a challenge) but many more do, so it's great that people like you are prepared to provide that environment.
Yes (there comes a point).
To be pedantic, there is no point where you are no longer "allowed" to do something (unless the server admin bans you which could count as not being "allowed" to do something).
But there is a point where you *should* not do something.
Actually, there is a point where you should want to not do something.
----
Social behavior isn't that someone behaves "good" against his will (for fear of punishment, or whatever), but that someone wants to behave "good" (no external motivation).
If someone can't do that and poses a problem, then he should be banned. The rest of the people owe him nothing more than he gives them.
Yes (it's wrong). It's not ridiculous, it's normal
----
To be fair, this is not against players being good.
Nothing is wrong with a good (like 30-5) kdr for a few games.
You can have wonderful games with people who are much better than the rest of the server.
But here's the point: these people "get" it.
They will (without anyone even saying anything) change teams, even multiple times in a game, to not have the balance topple and to keep the outcome open.
They will (without anyone even saying anything) distribute evenly between teams after the first game.
They will (without anyone even saying anything) give small hints to acknowledge they realize how other players might feel - a simple chat "O_o" after a certain situation, for example.
They will (without anyone even saying anything) leave the server, if necessary for the others.
And so on.
In short: they understand the situation of the other players, they will communicate that fact, they will act to the benefit of everyone (not only themselves), and most importantly they do it because they want to (no other motivation necessary, like being forced to behave by threat of ban).
Fine, some people may need a small hint ("Hey XXX, you're ruining the balance."), but at most once.
If an admin has to threaten a ban (unless it's the first thing that he says), usually it's already too late.
These people aren't the problem. Usually they even make the game better, because they bring more to the table.
The problem are the other ones.
They don't care about the situation of the other players, and that's why the do what they do.
They stack teams, repeatedly.
They show no sign of getting what's going on for the others (not for them!) and adapting their behavior.
When you have to ask them/complain, they get aggressive.
They abuse the chat/voice and insult others.
They make excuses instead of changing their behavior.
They have no shame. Actually, you may be able to shame them, but they feel no guilt.
These selfish/narcissistic behaviors are a problem and must be dealt with. In this case: ban those players.
Just wondering, can you imagine a situation where you would leave a server because you are too good?
I can understand that, especially for really good players, it is frustrating when they are basically guaranteed to dominate every server they join, with all the problems that might create.
But in they end, this is their problem. Not everyone's. Everyone else can try to help (say something, be friendly,...) but there's only so much they can do.
And we started by talking about servers specifically designated rookie friendly!
@Pakars
It's not about you, it's about everyone.
You don't seem to get that.
You're not willing to adapt your behavior towards the others, unless you can do it "for free" without a downside for you: You have to, poor guy. And if not?
--- Quoting myself from earlier in this post: Nobody expects you to ignore being insulted for no good reason.
But:
Has the thought every occurred to you that those people are angry for a good reason? Maybe it's not because you are "being better than themselves", but because you ruin their game and you don't even realize it? Maybe you started everything? Is this thought something you can envision?
---
You are the only person that matters for you: Translation: if I don't play, I get rusty.
Translation: I don't want to become worse at the game.
Other people don't exist in your consideration.
Why don't you initiate a pro pub server? You can still play and improve much faster than playing against "bad" players.
--- It's not only about people being obvious fucktards.
You can do nothing wrong and still pose a problem.
Because there are people other than you. This is where your thought process really breaks down. Wow.
First of all, complaining that the NS2 community is kick/ban-happy even though there is not even a kick/ban option, and admins have to painstakingly do everything manually?
Consider this: maybe it's not the community, maybe it's you!
And the community hasn't shown you "respect" even after you have "gone to some lengths to give them respect".
Apparently you have NOT given them respect.
This is what you would get respect for, for example: not ruining people's games! There's plenty of "respect" (whatever this even means) to be had in the NS2 community, take a guess why you haven't got any.
Again: maybe it's not the community, maybe it's you?
Admins "going straight for the banhammer"...
Tip: they just treat you this way, not everyone. Take a guess why.
Before you say "people hate me because I'm too good". No, they don't. They have a problem with you because they realize, from your behavior, because you ruin their games, that you don't care about them.
So why should they care about you (aka not ban you as they wish)?
Consider the possibility that your bad experience is mostly your fault.