Competitive Players on "Rookie Friendly" Servers

tk-421tk-421 Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58315Posts: 191
edited May 2013 in NS2 General Discussion
Hey folks,

Just something we've been dealing with for a while and I'd like some feedback from the community on this issue.

We (TCO) run a rookie friendly server where we try to be *exceptionally* welcoming to new players of NS2 and foster a helpful and friendly community. Every once in a while (and with increasing frequency) we've been having a few competitive players join our server and completely destroy whichever opposing team they play against.

Now I very, very much want to avoid banning people who are "too good" for our server. That idea is ridiculous. But, on the other hand, we've had a few nxzl players (and other top clans) in here just completely dominate enemy teams without any regard to balanced gameplay or a "good time" for anyone else on the server.

My question, I suppose, is why are some of you (and I know a bunch of you who are on our server read this forum) un-filtering "rookie friendly" servers and completely dominating the people who are just trying to learn the game? You are shooting the community in the foot. AND everytime we even slightly attempt to address this issue on the server we are repeatedly mocked and harassed by "upstanding" members of the community.

So apart from looking up the Steam ID's of competitive teams in the NS2 community and outright banning most of them - I'm asking you all - WTF? Is this just something the NS2 community is content with doing? Are we going to alienate new players from our community?

PS - And for those who will say "Rookie friendly" != "Rookie Only" - fine. But I would hope at least some of you would be considerate and join non-rookie friendly servers for a better challenge and to let new people have a chance at this game. If we have to go to the ridiculous lengths of banning tournament players from our server, I guess we will.
Post edited by tk-421 on
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Comments

  • FlipperFlipper Members Join Date: 2012-08-08 Member: 155120Posts: 188
    Think of it as training, you only get better by playing better players.

    Best if you don't divide a already tiny community.
    Dulce et demori est pro patria mori
    #Winning
    NS2 Shotty fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkw25TLkksQ
    FuleSynVisionsFaulty
  • tk-421tk-421 Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58315Posts: 191
    edited May 2013
    Yes, that is one of the most frequently used excuses. And, while I do agree on that issue to an extent, I think that should still be an idea reserved for "non-rookie" servers. Isn't that the idea? Our players are often times completely unfamiliar with even the most basic game mechanics. It's like asking someone who is learning to drive to try the Monaco Grand Prix because it would be "good for them".
    geggis
  • 2d0x2d0x Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2013-03-16 Member: 184030Posts: 104 Advanced user
    I agree with thread starter. I think there are several levels of skill. There are rookies with 1-20 hours of playing without any knowledge ... there are players who know basic game mechanics, but are just starting to practice using it ... there are good experienced players with excellent knowing of game mechanics ...
    Most of the above mentioned types of players can quite adequately confront each other in a Rookie server, and an average of fights will be interesting and tense for both sides. On average, the players are equal. And when there are no outstanding players, everything is all right, all in the hands of the players. Average kills\deaths ratio is 0.5\1\2\3\4\5 ... but sometimes they come ... unstoppable players with 700+ hours on ns2, having kills\deaths ratio over 8\9\10. It is nearly impossible to stop such a player. I think each player is faced with a similar situation: 16 players on the server, 10-15 minutes for a round. 15 players has kills-deaths like 15-10, 10-2, 8-4, 5-5, 3-7, nothing special ... and there are a super-hero on first place with 30 kills and 3 deaths. These players spoil the game to all the other players on the server. Only this player plays the game. He wins the game. The other players for him just a small obstacle.
    Flipper wrote: »
    Think of it as training, you only get better by playing better players.
    Seriously? do you think this rule works in shooter?! I think you can only train in hiding and avoiding enemy players if you have pr0player in opposite team. Or you will be one-shooted and dead in a second.
    ps sorry for bad english

    imgdev.php?id=2d0x
    Faulty
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below)Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Posts: 1,669 Advanced user
    edited May 2013
    Many pubs get a wide range of players. As an admin, you are fully allowed to do what you please.

    If I were you, I'd make it lighthearted.

    "Yo man, you are too pro for us. For now on you are only allowed to use Pistol/Gorge."

    Or, just kick them with a message: "sry man, we suck and are trying to learn the game, come back some other day." ("you" versus "I/we" language)

    Do this rather than strong ultimatums like "we don't like skilled players and they shall be banned."
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
    Blarney_Stone
  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Posts: 581 Advanced user
    edited May 2013
    Flipper wrote: »
    Think of it as training, you only get better by playing better players.

    Best if you don't divide a already tiny community.

    there's a breaking point, though.
    xtcmen wrote: »
    When I open up my server browser, 75% of the servers that have people in it are green. Sometimes, we have no choice.
    I find it difficult that you can't find a non-rookie server. I have it set to filter rookie servers and I get a list of about 8+ that are populated at any given time I search (still a low amount, but enough to find one to join). We're probably playing at different times, I guess. If you do join a rookie server, the least you could do is command or even just do pistol only if needed and help new players. if you ruin the gaming experience of new players, your problem of not finding any non-rookie servers is going to continue.
    Regnareb
  • tk-421tk-421 Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58315Posts: 191
    edited May 2013
    Yea, I guess we're trying our best not to get all annoyed about it while trying to give everyone a good experience.

    I'm in here right now under a new alias listening to a nxzl mock our attempt to run a rookie friendly server and it's fairly disheartening. I really, really don't want to ban competitive players because it's ridiculous...but if we have to, we have to.
  • AV_UltimaAV_Ultima Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2008-05-31 Member: 64367Posts: 26
    edited May 2013
    As some one else said, most of the servers are "rookie friendly" and they join them because they have players in them. Besides, what do the rookie servers actually do? It does not stop non-greens from joining. There is no difference between a "green" server and a "regular" server. I meet the same horrible to average players in every game a I join... and the occasional division 1.

    If every server admin took the same mentality as you, I would be banned from every server I join. I rarely play horribly and I am not going to play bad on purpose. Again, rookie server or not, its all the same players.

    EDIT: I think the best thing to do is ban the meanies. Us good players have to admit, sometimes we are a bunch of annoying people; including myself. Any admins out there, just warn us to chill out, and if we keep being elitist, ban us. Sound good? :)
    EDIT2: Language...
    Post edited by AV_Ultima on
    Stoneburg
  • tk-421tk-421 Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58315Posts: 191
    edited May 2013
    Virsoul wrote: »
    If you don't want top tier player to join your server, try labeling it "new players" or something to make it clear that you don't want people who've been playing since beta to be stomping on there. Also, if an admin or a player asks me to leave a server I usually oblige if there is another server that I'm able to play on.

    We actually sat down with nxzl.bitey in the ready room and discussed this. We had a 5-10 minute conversation about this problem and bitey suggested we name our server "casual gaming". So...we had a clan discussion and agreed that the best way to declare our intentions was to label our server "casual gaming", which we did. Apart from the name change we also remind these competitive players that it is, indeed, a rookie-friendly server.

    Again, still have the problem. I'm in here right now with people not doing any of the helpful things you are suggesting and just completely destroying players. Not only completely destroying players, but mocking the anyone in here who questions their gaming prowess or abilities. It's disgusting.

    Post edited by tk-421 on
    ampere
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Posts: 1,188 Advanced user
    "tk-421 wrote: »
    Now I very, very much want to avoid banning people who are "too good" for our server. That idea is ridiculous. But, on the other hand, we've had a few nxzl players (and other top clans) in here just completely dominate enemy teams without any regard to balanced gameplay or a "good time" for anyone else on the server.

    How is it ridiculous? It's your server and you can do whatever you want with it. If you play this for fun, and your definition of "having fun" is never playing people with higher than x/y KDR, then the only solution I see is to ban them. Why did you come here to whine about them? Do you think they give any fraction of a damn about how anyone feels except themselves? That is an extremely poor assumption to make in online gaming.
  • AV_UltimaAV_Ultima Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2008-05-31 Member: 64367Posts: 26
    tk-421 wrote: »
    Virsoul wrote: »
    If you don't want top tier player to join your server, try labeling it "new players" or something to make it clear that you don't want people who've been playing since beta to be stomping on there. Also, if an admin or a player asks me to leave a server I usually oblige if there is another server that I'm able to play on.

    We actually sat down with nxzl.bitey in the ready room and discussed this. We had a 5-10 minute conversation about this problem and bitey suggested we name our server "casual gaming". So...we had a clan discussion and agreed that the best way to declare our intentions was to label our server "casual gaming", which we did. Apart from naming our server "casual gaming" we also remind these competitive players that it is, indeed, a rookie-friendly server.

    Again, still have the problem. I'm in here right now with people not doing any of the helpful things you are suggesting and just completely destroying players. Not only completely destroying players, but mocking the anyone in here who questions their gaming prowess or abilities. It's disgusting.

    This is inevitable. There is always some one better than the last. This is the internet. Not sure if there is anything you can really do about this situation. Even if there was a way to regulate by hours played, there will still be individuals that dominate. Just how it is.
  • nezznezz Members Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174712Posts: 291
    edited May 2013
    Nothing will ever achieve what you're hoping, Except going thru ENSL top 2 divisions of every bracket and ban everyone on there.

    This is the first game i've ever played where they want to keep out the elite, it's quite disturbing.

    When i first started Counter-Strike after playing multitude of FPS before hand, i only wanted to play against the best and did so, I was forced into good habits to pull off any kind of decent score & learnt twice as quick as my mate who was pubbing with bads. Only casual randoms with 100 hours of ns2 want to be in these servers.

    nezz
    Scatter
  • tk-421tk-421 Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58315Posts: 191
    HeatSurge wrote: »
    "tk-421 wrote: »
    Now I very, very much want to avoid banning people who are "too good" for our server. That idea is ridiculous. But, on the other hand, we've had a few nxzl players (and other top clans) in here just completely dominate enemy teams without any regard to balanced gameplay or a "good time" for anyone else on the server.

    How is it ridiculous? It's your server and you can do whatever you want with it. If you play this for fun, and your definition of "having fun" is never playing people with higher than x/y KDR, then the only solution I see is to ban them. Why did you come here to whine about them? Do you think they give any fraction of a damn about how anyone feels except themselves? That is an extremely poor assumption to make in online gaming.

    I came here to "whine about them" because it's the general discussion for the community and I was hoping to get some opinions and feedback.
  • AV_UltimaAV_Ultima Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2008-05-31 Member: 64367Posts: 26
    edited May 2013
    tk-421 wrote: »
    HeatSurge wrote: »
    "tk-421 wrote: »
    Now I very, very much want to avoid banning people who are "too good" for our server. That idea is ridiculous. But, on the other hand, we've had a few nxzl players (and other top clans) in here just completely dominate enemy teams without any regard to balanced gameplay or a "good time" for anyone else on the server.

    How is it ridiculous? It's your server and you can do whatever you want with it. If you play this for fun, and your definition of "having fun" is never playing people with higher than x/y KDR, then the only solution I see is to ban them. Why did you come here to whine about them? Do you think they give any fraction of a damn about how anyone feels except themselves? That is an extremely poor assumption to make in online gaming.

    I came here to "whine about them" because it's the general discussion for the community and I was hoping to get some opinions and feedback.

    OK. What are your thoughts on our opinions?
    Post edited by AV_Ultima on
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Posts: 4,983 mod
    edited May 2013
    tk-421 wrote: »
    And for those who will say "Rookie friendly" != "Rookie Only"
    I've long believed and advocated that there be rookie only servers for precisely this reason. My opinion is that the best way to learn a game is on your own terms rather than dictated by the skill or the help of other players. Raising the rookie cap to something like 100 hours and making green mean rookie only would be a big benefit to NS2 imo.

    Edit: The only exception would be comming. Let non-rookies in rookie-only servers, but they can only comm.
  • RobotixRobotix Members Join Date: 2013-02-20 Member: 183222Posts: 201
    Personally, I would hate to be banned from a server just because I went something like 40-4. Being banned just for being good is extremely frustrating, and I really wish people wouldn't do it.

    However, if someone is being elitist while stomping players, then you should definitely ban them.
    SolidSpiderdelta78dragonmith
  • XaoXao Members Join Date: 2012-12-12 Member: 174840Posts: 452 Fully active user
    AV_Ultima wrote: »
    Wow! What was the point of your post other than to slander Virsoul?!

    Was bluntly written in the first line of my post and re-stated in better ways by Hozz above, these people don't want to help rookies or can be reasoned with they do it to get kicks out of stacking the odds completely in their favour and bad mouthing people, unlike yourself I'm not interested in nut hugging competitive players in a dead game I'd rather see them for what they are 90% of the time, wastes of oxygen and bandwidth.
  • AV_UltimaAV_Ultima Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2008-05-31 Member: 64367Posts: 26
    edited May 2013
    So if I open up the game one day and there is only one server with suitable ping and enough players, but it was a rookie server, you would rather I just not play. And if I did play, you would rather I limit myself. There comes a point in NS2 where I am not allowed to play the way I want and I have to cater to some one else?

    Serious question: Is it wrong of me to think this is ridiculous? :(

    I understand that if some one is being plain mean, you should get rid of them, but just simply doing good is no reason to rebuke a player. When I go to a new game and I get wrecked, I try to learn from what has happened to me. If I desire to continue to play the game, I watch and learn from the "better" players. I do not complain and whine because, if I actually cared, I will soon be as skilled or higher skilled as this better player.

    I do not think I have ever complained about some one beating me in an online game and wanted them to leave. I do not want to play with noobs who know nothing like myself, I want to know what this better player is doing to get a 5 KDR!
    Xao wrote: »
    Was bluntly written in the first line of my post and re-stated in better ways by Hozz above, these people don't want to help rookies or can be reasoned with they do it to get kicks out of stacking the odds completely in their favour and bad mouthing people, unlike yourself I'm not interested in nut hugging competitive players in a dead game I'd rather see them for what they are 90% of the time, wastes of oxygen and bandwidth.

    :( I am sorry for being good at the game... I guess I should just go away then...
  • AV_UltimaAV_Ultima Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2008-05-31 Member: 64367Posts: 26
    edited May 2013
    i don't get why people are getting upset about a reasonable topic. he prefers that, in his server, he and his clan can help new players learn the game while having a fun game.

    when your team is getting destroyed by the other, that isn't fun for half of the players on the server. you people keep talking about "hai guise when i was playin cs i only wanted 2 play agains da best so i could b da bess", but you don't seem to understand that, surprisingly, not everybody cares to be the best player. they just want to have fun in their hour session of gaming after they get off work.

    I can respect that.

    All the more reason this game needs a better way to separate these different types of players.
  • XaoXao Members Join Date: 2012-12-12 Member: 174840Posts: 452 Fully active user
    AV_Ultima wrote: »
    I want to know what this better player is doing to get a 5 KDR!

    They clan stack servers with no one good around and shit talk the people in them on all chat and mumble, there's your secret to pub success.

    Is it ridiculous to ask that people find servers that players of their skill level typically congregate? Is it ridiculous to ask that comp players don't try hard on rookie servers? Is it too much to ask from clans that if 4-5 of them join a server that 4- 5 of them don't join the same team to balance it out?

    Seems that way.
  • AV_UltimaAV_Ultima Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2008-05-31 Member: 64367Posts: 26
    edited May 2013
    Xao wrote: »
    AV_Ultima wrote: »
    I want to know what this better player is doing to get a 5 KDR!

    They clan stack servers with no one good around and shit talk the people in them on all chat and mumble, there's your secret to pub success.

    Is it ridiculous to ask that people find servers that players of their skill level typically congregate? Is it ridiculous to ask that comp players don't try hard on rookie servers? Is it too much to ask from clans that if 4-5 of them join a server that 4- 5 of them don't join the same team to balance it out?

    Seems that way.

    I did not realize that is what you were getting at. I was giving examples from an individual stand point. If you join servers with 4-5 team members and stack, then yes, that is pretty lame. You do not learn anything from that. If you join the game with friends, try to spread yourselves out. It is much more fun that way.
  • PakarsPakars Members Join Date: 2010-11-24 Member: 75262Posts: 10
    edited May 2013
    I'm not in a team(Nor do I really have plans of joining one -- I play too many games and do not wish to make NS2 my sole focus like I did with another game a number of years ago), but I usually end(ed) up being one of those 30-0/40-0/50-0 superhero all-star pubdestroyers.

    Sometimes there's no non-green servers with a <200 ping that has any players, so I have to play on rookie servers or some random official server. If I happen to meet another good player, I almost always join the other team.

    I only have ~300 hours played, only a little more than an hour a day. I don't have any remorse for wiping the floor with players that are worse than me, especially when all they do is hurl insults at me for being better than themselves. I often take the time to answer honest questions that rookies ask, and help them to learn to play better.
    hozz wrote: »
    -snip-

    Maybe some of us enjoy being good at the game. Your suggestion to not play isn't a valid one, because if you don't play some amount, you get rusty (protip: If you're committed to not being terrible, not playing is NOT a choice). I also refuse to intentionally go easy on bad players, because that's also a path to becoming worse at the game. If there is a player that is being elitist and mocking bad players, then warn them, and kick them if they refuse to stop. If they are repeat offenders, only then should you ban them.

    <rant>

    For the most part, I've given up on standard NS2 and been playing combat, because the community is one of the most kick/ban-happy communities I've played in. In the past, I've enjoyed a good number of kicks for being a jerk(What can I say, I got into the habit of shit-talking on CS). With that in mind, I'd removed my mic and only spoke positively and when spoken to(no cursing, no shit-talking, etc). What happened? I still got kicked, presumably for being too good, because I hadn't said a single harsh word. Even on non-rookie-friendly servers, getting kicked has been a problem for me.

    I'm probably going to end up not playing NS2 at all anymore because the community hasn't shown me respect even after I've gone to some lengths to give them respect. Most admins I've met have never, EVER, asked me to leave or given me a warning for anything. They've always gone straight to the B& hammer and removed me by force. Overall, I would say that interacting with NS2 server admins has almost been the worst I've ever dealt with, and I have played a hell of a lot of online video games(The experience is possibly on par with the almost-legendary World of Warcraft "This is not an all-you-can eat buffet" in response to honest beta feedback that ended up getting ignored and ruining class balance for half a year).

    </rant>
    SolidSpiderAV_Ultimapearlyk
  • CrazyEddieCrazyEddie Members Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178196Posts: 657
    edited May 2013
    There comes a point in NS2 where I am not allowed to play the way I want and I have to cater to some one else?

    When someone as skilled as you plays against rookies and low-skilled pub players, you can't lose and they can't win.

    Why would you want to play a game you can't lose?

    Why would you expect anyone would want to play a game they can't win?
    SolidSpiderRegnareb
  • CrazyEddieCrazyEddie Members Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178196Posts: 657
    edited May 2013
    Not only completely destroying players, but mocking the anyone in here who questions their gaming prowess or abilities.

    Never hesitate to ban a$$holes from your server.
  • CalegoCalego Members, NS2 Map Tester Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181848Posts: 763 Advanced user
    Well I figure I might as well link another discussion we had a while ago similar to this topic. Unfortunately no policing exists for such 'rookie friendly'-ness. As everyone here has said before, it's up to you as the admin to enact what rules as you may, and enforce them accordingly.

    Perhaps a MOTD with some basic rules of "rookie friendly"-ness? Then, you can say they were warned about what behavior was acceptable, and then kick/ban them.


    Bit of a sidetrack from where this conversation started but I figure I should share.
    Exhibit A
    From our long lost brother called the Steam Community discussions. The very fact that posts like these exist is reason to worry IMO.

    We all know this game is tough. We all know you gotta work hard to get decent, let alone good at NS2. But they don't necessarily know that. Throwing the rookies up against pros is like sending a pug team against Arc on a good day. The losing team doesn't learn much, if anything, and all they want to do is quit. Even one carrying teammate can make stuff sour. If your team is stomping, don't draw it out whatever you do. Just end it.

    I understand that the server list is saturated with rookie friendly servers. But there isn't much we as players can do about it. Maybe get some regulars together and try to convince your local admin to take off the tag. But there's no real guarantee.

    If you and a bunch of friends are looking for a game, consider starting up a non-rookie friendly server. Most servers start filling up rapidly after the first 4-6 people join.
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call?Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,191 Fully active user
    tk-421 wrote: »
    Virsoul wrote: »
    If you don't want top tier player to join your server, try labeling it "new players" or something to make it clear that you don't want people who've been playing since beta to be stomping on there. Also, if an admin or a player asks me to leave a server I usually oblige if there is another server that I'm able to play on.

    We actually sat down with nxzl.bitey in the ready room and discussed this. We had a 5-10 minute conversation about this problem and bitey suggested we name our server "casual gaming". So...we had a clan discussion and agreed that the best way to declare our intentions was to label our server "casual gaming", which we did. Apart from naming our server "casual gaming" we also remind these competitive players that it is, indeed, a rookie-friendly server.

    Again, still have the problem. I'm in here right now with people not doing any of the helpful things you are suggesting and just completely destroying players. Not only completely destroying players, but mocking the anyone in here who questions their gaming prowess or abilities. It's disgusting.

    I think this shows a very positive attitude from all sides that you can openly and frankly discuss the issue with bitey. Clearly his suggestion for naming the server is a good one, which you did. The next stage is to ensure you have a rule visible when players join, along the lines of 'no rookie stomping', ensure that admins warn players (eg 'Roo, you're stomping us, would you mind either commanding or leaving please as we're a rookie-oriented casual gaming server') before they kick, and if that doesn't work, kick and/or ban as required.

    As others have said, it's your server to run as you please. You pay for it, you put the time into maintenance and running and adminning. I ran a variety of servers for ns1 and other games a few years ago, and I know what a thankless task it can be at times, BUT: when you get it right and build up a community of like-minded players, it can be awesome. I'm still meeting up with players I've not seen for 10 years who were regs on my ns1 NTFM server. I made quite a few real life friendships from that server, too. I found it rewarding, and the overwhelming comments I got from players were positive. My rules there were essentially about teamwork and not being an idiot/abusive/racist etc.


    I would argue that abusing or smack talking (if not obviously in jest) doesn't do anything to help atmosphere on a server. Give a warning then bring out the kick-then-ban tools, whoever it is doing the offending. Your regular players will thank you for making the server a more fun place to play, and over time the moronic people will learn to avoid your server (or won't be able to join).

    I'm absolutely sure from what contact I have had with nexzil players that they in no way mean to offend or roflstomp newbies. They do a LOT for this community in many different levels, and the fact that bitey took the time to sit down with you to help you work out a way forward says a lot. It's sad, but some people get off on impersonating clanned players, then acting like cretins to give that clan a bad name. I'm not saying that has definitely happened here, but it's something to be wary of, especially after posting on these forums. There are some extremely childish people lurking on here as well, unfortunately.

    Finally, I want to say thanks for dedicating a server to training and nurturing of new players. It's a really positive thing for the community as a whole. Not all players will want that environment (I prefer to be thrown in at the deep end, and I love a challenge) but many more do, so it's great that people like you are prepared to provide that environment.
    For all your gorge busting needs.
    It is very strange how some1 who spend so much time makeing videos to help mans, can fall and take miror image of dark ages bourgeoisie, outdated set of belifs
    How True.
    |DFA| HavocAV_UltimaSide1Bu2Rnz9
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