Things I Have Learned From The Free Weekend

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  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    Free weekenders are more than welcome to get in the chair as far as I'm concerned, so long as both comms do the same.

    Maybe I'll get a chance to actually play the game and not have to waste time with 5 minute matches for an hour.
  • SeahuntsSeahunts Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151973Members
    Chris0132 wrote: »
    Free weekenders are more than welcome to get in the chair as far as I'm concerned, so long as both comms do the same.

    +1. I found some that had a mic and were willing to ask questions, I actually encouraged them to have a go at commanding, it was quite satisfying as they picked it up reasonably well.

    If they don't have a mic but are still willing to listen to advice that's ok too albeit a bit harder for them to ask questions.

    Sadly I did come across a couple of people who just jumped in alien com with out asking anything and then got a whip, gorge tunnels and no res...

    Free weekenders have a couple of days to trial the game and see if they like it. For some that means having a go at commanding.

    For others it's the reason I actually researched exos one round before jetpacks just so they could have a go in them. To my surprise a couple of rookies went quite well in exos. One rail gun + one dual with a couple of macs each pushed out and defended arcs perfectly as they took down 3 hives.
  • MrPinkMrPink Join Date: 2002-05-28 Member: 678Members
    Right now is a good time for new comms to learn the game but I'll eject you if you are unresponsive to vet players. If I ask for shotguns and you say no, that's fine, but if you say nothing I'll eject after awhile.
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    MrPink wrote: »
    Right now is a good time for new comms to learn the game but I'll eject you if you are unresponsive to vet players. If I ask for shotguns and you say no, that's fine, but if you say nothing I'll eject after awhile.

    That's a really big thing for me. I don't care if you are bad or just don't know how or what to do, but if someone tries to take the time to help you do the right thing and you ignore them I suddenly don't want you in the game at all.

    The other problem I've been seeing in the all rookie games is they grind to a halt where neither team can figure out how to push at all. It's sort of like the old marine turtle problem but it's happening for both teams and not necessarily on one base. I know it's really boring to basically accomplish nothing for an hour and I have to assume the new players feel the same way.
  • NarfwakNarfwak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
    edited March 2013
    Chris0132 wrote: »
    Free weekenders are more than welcome to get in the chair as far as I'm concerned, so long as both comms do the same.

    Maybe I'll get a chance to actually play the game and not have to waste time with 5 minute matches for an hour.
    I've been backseat commanding almost every game this weekend and, to be honest, I've had a blast doing it. There's been a few awful games in the mix (guy who doesn't cyst for all twenty minutes of a game, etc.) but for the most part people are more than willing to listen if you're polite and patient. It's a fun experience for me, too, since combing my brain for all the things I can say that are helpful makes me think more about the game and teaches me stuff too - the ol' "teach the teacher" technique of reciprocal learning. Even if it feels like you're just having a conversation with the commander it's probably helping the rest of the team out as a lot of rookies are going to be shy and not want to get on voice comms or say anything at all in a game they don't understand well. Just having that dialogue gets people thinking about the game and odds are if one person is confused about something and asks about it there's at least two or three other people on the team with the same question (the most common problem, by far, being how to open up the map).

    It's worth saying that if someone doesn't respond right away while they're commanding they might have their mic not set up correctly or are just a bit overwhelmed and shy at first. Many of my games this weekend have involved a comm that said very little or nothing at first but really opened up and led the team once they felt confident enough to do so. I know it's frustrating to hand hold for that long, but it really helps the game grow in the long run. When people have a bad experience in the first couple of games and feel like the learning curve is too steep they're going to turn around right away and not stick with the game. Being nice to someone for even five minutes might be all it takes to get them to stick with it and evolve into a great player and community member down the road.

    tl;dr be patient, be helpful, and you'll be surprised at how quickly people can learn.

  • SteveRockSteveRock Join Date: 2012-10-01 Member: 161215Members, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
    Yeah, accessibility is an issue that we do want to address. My gut feeling is that a tutorial level, like CSGO's, is not sufficient, because NS2 is just more complex than CS (all the alien life forms, tech tree, etc. etc.). On the other hand, we don't have the resources to do a full-on SP campaign like Starcraft. I think a good compromise is something driven by bots, like an alternate game play mode that is co-op/SP vs. CPU.

    Anyway, we can't promise anything, but it's definitely on our minds!
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    I agree narfwak.
    Today I remembered a fun strat that I recommended to a player that got his chops down quickly: tell team to rush base, while cyst spamming as fast as you can into a forward base and place a shift behind a column or prop. Use nutrient mist to cause more of a distraction/get that shift operational and then begin non stop hatching eggs asap.
    Your skulks either are successful or respawn at those eggs. If you had extra res (he did) add whips next to the structures while marines frantically try to take out the spawning players and eggs.

    Some may find that a typical strat but I personally rarely see that stuff..
    Also highly effective against your typical new player :-P
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited March 2013
    SteveRock wrote: »
    Yeah, accessibility is an issue that we do want to address. My gut feeling is that a tutorial level, like CSGO's, is not sufficient, because NS2 is just more complex than CS (all the alien life forms, tech tree, etc. etc.). On the other hand, we don't have the resources to do a full-on SP campaign like Starcraft. I think a good compromise is something driven by bots, like an alternate game play mode that is co-op/SP vs. CPU.

    Anyway, we can't promise anything, but it's definitely on our minds!

    I think a sort of 'last stand' base defence level with bots where you have to fight vs an onslaught of alien lifeforms with them increasing in strength (with information being given on how the lifeforms work) over time would be pretty sweet. Could even tie in a little comm tutorial and also offer the player to try aliens. (With unlimited p.res so they can practice things like lerk and fade vs these basic bots)

    Shouldn't be too hard. It'd definitely pay off, especially for aliens as right now there's FAR too many ground lerks and walking fades and it's no fun really when you only get to evolve them once in your average game to then lose them only because you don't know how they work. (Not to mention skulks aren't exactly a walk in the park either) NS2 is very unforgiving for aliens, and skulk play isn't all that amazing as it becomes frustrating late on, which is disastrous for player retention.
  • deathshrouddeathshroud Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71291Members
    edited March 2013
    what i have learned from free weekenders.

    1. no matter how bad the com might be he will always figure out how to build sentries.
    2. cysts are not necessary just place hives on any techpoint you like.
    3. always place an observatory instead of an extractor.
    4. whips the more the better and place the in the open to intimidate marines.
    4.forget extractors they arent needed.
    5. if you somehow failed to do the above and your team has managed to secure another tech point always place a cc first.
    6. avoid phase gate tech at all costs
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    what i have learned from free weekenders.

    1. no matter how bad the com might be he will always figure out how to build sentries.
    2. cysts are not necessary just place hives on any techpoint you like.
    3. always place an observatory instead of an extractor.
    4. whips the more the better and place the in the open to intimidate marines.
    4.forget extractors they arent needed.
    5. if you somehow failed to do the above and your team has managed to secure another tech point always place a cc first.
    6. avoid phase gate tech at all costs

    LMAO, #1 is so damn true.
  • DeskLampDeskLamp Australia Join Date: 2013-02-03 Member: 182783Members
    One thing to improve player capability would be to have longer tutorials like Hugh made in the ready room accessible a few minutes between each match. These could be accessible by clicking on consoles or something. Make them inaccessible after a few minutes to stop people stating too long though.

    These tutorials could be more strategic around team work and tech strategies.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    edited March 2013
    SteveRock wrote: »
    Yeah, accessibility is an issue that we do want to address. My gut feeling is that a tutorial level, like CSGO's, is not sufficient, because NS2 is just more complex than CS (all the alien life forms, tech tree, etc. etc.). On the other hand, we don't have the resources to do a full-on SP campaign like Starcraft. I think a good compromise is something driven by bots, like an alternate game play mode that is co-op/SP vs. CPU.

    Anyway, we can't promise anything, but it's definitely on our minds!

    The simplest thing would be to do a tutorial map with someone explaining you the game, a bit like the portal serie. You just need trigger zone to start a sound. For example for the skulk you could do an area that you can pass only by walking on the ceiling, in the following one you would need to evolve a lerk, an area you can't cross without carapace, etc.

  • wirywiry Join Date: 2009-05-25 Member: 67479Members
    SteveRock wrote: »
    Yeah, accessibility is an issue that we do want to address. My gut feeling is that a tutorial level, like CSGO's, is not sufficient, because NS2 is just more complex than CS (all the alien life forms, tech tree, etc. etc.). On the other hand, we don't have the resources to do a full-on SP campaign like Starcraft. I think a good compromise is something driven by bots, like an alternate game play mode that is co-op/SP vs. CPU.

    Anyway, we can't promise anything, but it's definitely on our minds!

    A basic tutorial system wouldn't really be that hard to implement.
    The tutorial could pull common build orders from ns2stats to give a few example strategies, it could explain the importance of certain buildings and just basic movement and basic ranged-vs-melee introduction.

    The only thing that I could see you having a problem with explaining in a tutorial is why people should ignore biting down power nodes most of the time. But thats a whole other issue. Other than that the game is pretty straight forward.
  • Super_GorgeSuper_Gorge Join Date: 2013-03-22 Member: 184212Members
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    what i have learned from free weekenders.

    1. no matter how bad the com might be he will always figure out how to build sentries.
    2. cysts are not necessary just place hives on any techpoint you like.
    3. always place an observatory instead of an extractor.
    4. whips the more the better and place the in the open to intimidate marines.
    4.forget extractors they arent needed.
    5. if you somehow failed to do the above and your team has managed to secure another tech point always place a cc first.
    6. avoid phase gate tech at all costs

    LMAO, #1 is so damn true.

    #6 is totally true too. You can immediately tell a new Marine com from an old Marine com. Old Marine coms start phase tech within the first minute. New Marine comes, minute 20.

    Gotta admit though, I've been doing #4 lately. Grab the ones at the tech points first, then have to get reminded to get the secondary ones.
  • wirywiry Join Date: 2009-05-25 Member: 67479Members
    Except that phase gates is mid/late game tech. Nabcomms might get them at minute one.
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    wiry wrote: »
    Except that phase gates is mid/late game tech. Nabcomms might get them at minute one.

    Bcuz pubs = scrims/comp amrite? :|
  • wirywiry Join Date: 2009-05-25 Member: 67479Members
  • AkimotoAkimoto Norway Join Date: 2013-03-03 Member: 183642Members
    I always know we are going to win when the commander makes whips early.
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    edited March 2013
    wiry wrote: »
    Except that phase gates is mid/late game tech. Nabcomms might get them at minute one.

    Phase gates need to come before minute 4 in all pub games. If you don't get them quickly but manage to win anyway, it's pretty much a sign of stacked teams. Of course free weekend adds another exception, where both teams are so bad that it's alright if you choose wrong for the first 10 minutes.


    The commander tutorials btw are fairly poor and unhelpful. Out of the videos I actually watched, I particularly remember the Skulk tutorial as being fairly good. The difference is that the com tuts run through a normal game and mix in speaking with the team with actually giving tutorial tips. What I feel is needed is a tutorial on the interface, tech tree, build orders and counters, and basic strategy. This should NOT be done in a live game, but instead with in a solo game as aliens, and with one or two helpers (to build and demonstrate orders) as marines. It only needs to be fragments too, no reason to show a full game.

    After that, a comm perspective vid with a few extra tips (more or less like what we have) would be ok, but a direct tutorial is needed.
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Early phase isn't absolutely essential even in pubs, depending on the map. What's most important in pub servers is communication, from the comm to the team and vice versa. If people are on board with your strat, you can get away with a number of different strategies successfully. The biggest two challenges are a) marines who can't shoot and b) marines who refuse to accept that a different strategy can work.
    It's not a case of stacked teams only, it's a case of a team working well together and communicating. Then adapting as required to the alien strats.
  • YMICrazyYMICrazy Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165986Members
    edited March 2013
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    edited March 2013
    Roobubba wrote: »
    Early phase isn't absolutely essential even in pubs, depending on the map. What's most important in pub servers is communication, from the comm to the team and vice versa. If people are on board with your strat, you can get away with a number of different strategies successfully. The biggest two challenges are a) marines who can't shoot and b) marines who refuse to accept that a different strategy can work.
    It's not a case of stacked teams only, it's a case of a team working well together and communicating. Then adapting as required to the alien strats.

    If you've got marines who can shoot, communicate, and accept new strats, you are already above pub level, or at the very least you have a team who is likely to be FAR beyond the level of the alien team.
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    SteveRock wrote: »
    Yeah, accessibility is an issue that we do want to address. My gut feeling is that a tutorial level, like CSGO's, is not sufficient, because NS2 is just more complex than CS (all the alien life forms, tech tree, etc. etc.). On the other hand, we don't have the resources to do a full-on SP campaign like Starcraft. I think a good compromise is something driven by bots, like an alternate game play mode that is co-op/SP vs. CPU.

    Anyway, we can't promise anything, but it's definitely on our minds!

    Valve is currently also experimenting with how they can teach new players Dota 2 with basic tutorial levels. It seems like they will go for a mini campaign, currently it only has one mission and doesn't teach all, but they plan to get more in based on feedback.

    A simple tutorial in NS2 could be like:
    -You are a marine in a tutorial map with just basic corridors that lead you from one place to another, teaching you something new on each spot.
    -First task: you and a basic AI marine get sent out by the commander along a corridor to build an extractor and power node. After building it, your AI buddy makes some remark about how that RT will pay off with some new weapons for you guys soon.
    -You go on and come into a larger room. The AI comm utilizes a scan and your AI buddy notices a Skulk on the ceiling because of that, though the Skulk is not moving yet. The player gets to practice the shot on an immobile target first.
    -The AI commander drops a forward armory in that room and lets you build it. Upon finishing it, the commander researched Mines and lets you and your AI buddy deploy them at recommended spots. After doing so, the AI guy makes a comment about hearing Skulks incoming and you prepare for battle.
    -Then you build another RT in that room and your commander finishes researching Shotguns, which you can afford now and buy at that forward Armory.
    -You guys move out, making the acquaintance of a Gorge Fortress with Hydras. After killing them with the help of AI comm medpack drops, you move in and find a Gorge hiding in a corner and kill it.
    -There is also a Shift and your AI buddy recommends to kill it before it creates any alien eggs.
    .
    .
    .
  • DogbiteDogbite Join Date: 2004-03-14 Member: 27329Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I think that new players who have a little bit of rts knowledge can be ok at commanding, with a little help over the mic form other players.

    But, the biggest problem I've seen over the free weekend is that commanders don't know the build order to unlock tech. I actually tried Khamm for the first time yesterday, because I was getting a little frustrated with having no upgrades all game even though we had access to the requirements to get them.

    Even though I have played around with commanding in explore mode, I still was struggling at first to figure out how to unlock certain upgrades and the build orders. I have to say though Khamm is a lot more forgiving than jumping in the chair in NS1.

    Also, I've seen a lot of comms who have played NS1 and don't understand that the requirements to build are different in NS2. One Khamm was telling us that we didn't have upgrades because the gorge hadn't built them........
  • kalakujakalakuja Join Date: 2012-09-11 Member: 159045Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter
    all hail cod generation and overlong tutorials
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    edited March 2013
    Dogbite wrote: »
    I think that new players who have a little bit of rts knowledge can be ok at commanding, with a little help over the mic form other players.

    But, the biggest problem I've seen over the free weekend is that commanders don't know the build order to unlock tech. I actually tried Khamm for the first time yesterday, because I was getting a little frustrated with having no upgrades all game even though we had access to the requirements to get them.

    Even though I have played around with commanding in explore mode, I still was struggling at first to figure out how to unlock certain upgrades and the build orders. I have to say though Khamm is a lot more forgiving than jumping in the chair in NS1.

    Also, I've seen a lot of comms who have played NS1 and don't understand that the requirements to build are different in NS2. One Khamm was telling us that we didn't have upgrades because the gorge hadn't built them........

    The build order bit is something I think needs to be adjusted in Explore mode. There needs to be a way to progress through the tech tree naturally in order to understand how it works, and Explore is very UNnatural about it because everything is automatically unlocked... but can still be researched anyway. The best way to do it currently is to start a private server, enable cheats (in order to make the game start), and probably enable autobuild, though I'm not even sure that works.

    A commander explore mode would be pretty nice. Basically just a regular game in an empty server starting with no players. It would also be nice if the marine side got some very simple bots to build with and order around rather than having autobuild. Basically macs reskinned as marines (so as not to cause confusion or imply that they should be using macs to build).
  • McCheeseMcCheese Join Date: 2012-11-21 Member: 172726Members
    Yuuki wrote: »

    The simplest thing would be to do a tutorial map with someone explaining you the game, a bit like the portal serie. You just need trigger zone to start a sound. For example for the skulk you could do an area that you can pass only by walking on the ceiling, in the following one you would need to evolve a lerk, an area you can't cross without carapace, etc.

    i think this really would be nice. I honestly do not see how new players are expected to watch youtube videos before playing. I would think that most players want to jump in and actually play the game(or tutorial level) instead of sitting and watching non interactive videos. Even just teaching new players the basics of movement for each alien lifeform/jetpack/etc... would be helpful, considering a new fade or lerk is probably going to be gunned down in less than 2 mins in a real game, giving them very little time to get a feel for the controls.
  • The_JanitorThe_Janitor Join Date: 2013-03-24 Member: 184320Members
    edited March 2013
    SteveRock wrote: »
    A simple tutorial in NS2 could be like:
    -You are a marine in a tutorial map with just basic corridors that lead you from one place to another, teaching you something new on each spot.
    -First task: you and a basic AI marine get sent out by the commander along a corridor to build an extractor and power node. After building it, your AI buddy makes some remark about how that RT will pay off with some new weapons for you guys soon.
    -You go on and come into a larger room. The AI comm utilizes a scan and your AI buddy notices a Skulk on the ceiling because of that, though the Skulk is not moving yet. The player gets to practice the shot on an immobile target first.
    -The AI commander drops a forward armory in that room and lets you build it. Upon finishing it, the commander researched Mines and lets you and your AI buddy deploy them at recommended spots. After doing so, the AI guy makes a comment about hearing Skulks incoming and you prepare for battle.
    -Then you build another RT in that room and your commander finishes researching Shotguns, which you can afford now and buy at that forward Armory.
    -You guys move out, making the acquaintance of a Gorge Fortress with Hydras. After killing them with the help of AI comm medpack drops, you move in and find a Gorge hiding in a corner and kill it.
    -There is also a Shift and your AI buddy recommends to kill it before it creates any alien eggs.
    Your AI squadmate is critically injured, however. He tells you to move on and finish the hive without him, whereupon the player grabs him and hangs him over his shoulder, yelling "We leave no one behind!" But their moment is interrupted as they're about to get stomped by an Onos train, only for three Dual-Minigun Exos to arrive from the distance. All you can see are the minigun tracers flying overhead at the end and the Oni retreating back to the hive.

    Roll credits.
  • Super_GorgeSuper_Gorge Join Date: 2013-03-22 Member: 184212Members
    wiry wrote: »
    Except that phase gates is mid/late game tech. Nabcomms might get them at minute one.

    Do you always play against alien teams that don't know how to leave their own base?
  • Super_GorgeSuper_Gorge Join Date: 2013-03-22 Member: 184212Members
    Roobubba wrote: »
    Early phase isn't absolutely essential even in pubs, depending on the map. What's most important in pub servers is communication, from the comm to the team and vice versa. If people are on board with your strat, you can get away with a number of different strategies successfully. The biggest two challenges are a) marines who can't shoot and b) marines who refuse to accept that a different strategy can work.
    It's not a case of stacked teams only, it's a case of a team working well together and communicating. Then adapting as required to the alien strats.

    Over extension is a major reason why Marines lose. PGs alleviate that. The bulk of the marine team gets caught in an area where they can't get to a phase gate quickly, Aliens pull a flank to quickly kill the observatory and without a PG, marines lose a base. And then another one if the Aliens are good at stalling the overextended marines.

    Early Phase can make the difference between a hard slog to take and old tech points or rapid consolidation of tech points and then using them to put pressure on Alien bases.

    And because many Marine players don't have the patience to consolidate a base, a PG is really the only way to reduce the chance you'll lose it.
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