Things I Have Learned From The Free Weekend

Poochi41Poochi41 Join Date: 2013-03-22 Member: 184172Members
edited March 2013 in NS2 General Discussion
I wanted to post a thread and contribute to the community as I am avid player of Natural Selection 2. Ever since I played NS1 I have loved this game and playing NS2 I feel that there is a lot of potential for this epic game to grow. Since I have been playing this game I have noticed that there are a lot of subtle details and tactics that you have to learn in this game in order to be successful.

From what I have observed in the free weekend from many new players is a huge sense of being overwhelmed about what is going on whether they are playing in FPS mode or in the RTS mode (commander). Many of these individuals have not gone into the tutorial mode and watched the various amounts of videos that explain basics mechanics. Or they have not gone into the explore mode to see the various objects, tech trees, and units in the game. Therefore, when they enter the game as rookies they get overwhelmed by how rapid paced and intense the game is when their teammates are communicating various tactics. Although, I always help new players in my pub games and give them tips on how to play in order to encourage them to keep trying despite the outcome! :D

The other interesting thing I have noticed is that most new people are having trouble grasping things like how to beacon using an observatory in an emergency situation. Or understanding how each room strategically has power nodes that need to be used to build power in order for buildings to work. They even have trouble understanding the functions of the ARC and how it is a siege tank for buildings (offensively) and not units (defensively).

All of these things to us veterans are already common knowledge since we have played the game so much and I understand that these people are new. But, what really hit me is that even if they don’t do the tutorial or they did. I see that people cannot INTUITIVELY learn just by first glance and that is a HUGE problem to growing the community of this game. More people seem to be interested in the FPS shooter aspect of the game as that is the straight forward approach and the most basic way of playing the game. From there they gain a sense of “mob mentality” where they stick together and work as a team.

I think where I am going with this is that UWE has to somehow make the game mechanics more obvious to new players and user friendly. An example would be like TF2 where the solider only has a rocket launcher and he has two functions. One being to attack other players and the second to rocket jump to higher places. It’s something that players use and just instinctively learn very quickly how to use.

I understand the complexity of the game and the genius behind the concept of what UWE has done. Nor do I want to interfere with their artistic vision as it is the best I have ever seen in a game by far. What I am trying to say is that they need to find a creative way of making the learning process of the game feel more gradual than just being thrown in the fray.

Let me know what all of you think as I would like to have a discussion about it as I am trying to find a better way to explain this, but I wanted to share my opinion nonetheless.
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Comments

  • jorgamunjorgamun Join Date: 2013-03-05 Member: 183703Members
    Remember the Hazard Course in Half-Life? It was a great way to introduce you to the mechanics you'll need to get through the game.

    A singleplayer map that's something similar to that could be really fun and helpful. I don't know if it's being worked on by anyone though.
  • AngeluszAngelusz Harmonic entropist Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
    This topic pops up regularly, and is also discussed a lot amongst the developers and playtesters - rest assured they're on it.

    The problem is that there's no singleplayer. People want to jump right into the action. However, other players might not take this into account; in a 16-slot server, there's 15 other people trying to enjoy their game and most of them won't take time or make an effort to 'help' the new player understand things. They want to just enjoy playing the game.

    The rookie servers are a step in the right direction, naturally, but there's no real way of making it easier to learn in multiplayer mode.
  • Poochi41Poochi41 Join Date: 2013-03-22 Member: 184172Members
    Angelusz wrote: »
    This topic pops up regularly, and is also discussed a lot amongst the developers and playtesters - rest assured they're on it.

    The problem is that there's no singleplayer. People want to jump right into the action. However, other players might not take this into account; in a 16-slot server, there's 15 other people trying to enjoy their game and most of them won't take time or make an effort to 'help' the new player understand things. They want to just enjoy playing the game.

    The rookie servers are a step in the right direction, naturally, but there's no real way of making it easier to learn in multiplayer mode.

    I absolutely agree with the rookie servers in order to prevent the skill gap issue, but I feel there needs to be some more "fine-tuning" that needs to be done in order to make that transition better.
  • SherlockSherlock Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168595Members
    Maybe just a slight tweak to the skinning of the buildings so they're more obvious what they do?

    The Observatory, with it's big radio dish, is quite obvious. The arms lab, with it's little spinning armor icon, a little less. But the others: not at all.

    Imagine seeing an Armory, Extractor and a Proto Lab side by side, having never seen them before? You'd have NO idea what any of them did, or even which was which.

    Maybe, whilst Rookie mode is enabled, they get some of the tooltips from Explore Mode show up in an actual game? When they get near an Armory, say, it not only brings up the [E] icon but brings up the description as well. The videos are a reasonably helpful feature, but as new people die a lot, I can see them getting turned off before they're properly paid attention to.

    I would like to see a little holographic icon above all of the buildings showing what it does. Again, maybe in Rookie mode. A little floating gun above the armory. A little spanner above the Arms Lab. A little $ sign above the Extractors. Etc.

    You can instantly see what they do, and once you know, you can turn it off.
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Sherlock wrote: »
    Maybe just a slight tweak to the skinning of the buildings so they're more obvious what they do?

    The Observatory, with it's big radio dish, is quite obvious. The arms lab, with it's little spinning armor icon, a little less. But the others: not at all.

    Imagine seeing an Armory, Extractor and a Proto Lab side by side, having never seen them before? You'd have NO idea what any of them did, or even which was which.

    Maybe, whilst Rookie mode is enabled, they get some of the tooltips from Explore Mode show up in an actual game? When they get near an Armory, say, it not only brings up the [E] icon but brings up the description as well. The videos are a reasonably helpful feature, but as new people die a lot, I can see them getting turned off before they're properly paid attention to.

    I would like to see a little holographic icon above all of the buildings showing what it does. Again, maybe in Rookie mode. A little floating gun above the armory. A little spanner above the Arms Lab. A little $ sign above the Extractors. Etc.

    You can instantly see what they do, and once you know, you can turn it off.

    This is actually a grand idea. Floating holographic symbols. The armory already has a red plus icon (for "health"), so that could probably be expanded if UWE wants to.
  • GeekavengerGeekavenger Join Date: 2012-08-31 Member: 157117Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Another option for tutorial mode would be something like the commentary mode in the Left4Dead games. where you can run the level and it is mostly empty with floating icons to trigger rendered events and audio files describing what to do. For example one talking about proper spacing as marines, or line of sight down hallways, or watching out for ambushes. Aliens would be harder to do because of the different life forms. But maybe you could have different icons show up depending on what class you were evolved into.

    I realize this is a lot like explore mode, but I feel like explore is a little to unguided, and it would be nice if the tutorials triggered rendered events so you could see visually what you were trying to teach.

    I feel like this wouldn't have to be a UWE thing either, it could be a MOD just as easily. I am not skilled enough to do the actual MOD-ing but if someone wants to collaborate I would be willing to help build content for it.
  • BVKnightBVKnight Join Date: 2012-02-26 Member: 147496Members
    Is there a way to make scripted AI enemy events inside a map, and package it as a tutorial? How hard is it to do? Like the HL crash course, but with a few choreographed events that make it obvious how to do certain things. There was a crash course map like this for NS1, but I can't find the video. I think Kouji San or one of the other mods/playtesters posted it last time there was a thread like this.
  • CataclyzmCataclyzm Join Date: 2005-01-06 Member: 33031Members
    Poochi41 wrote: »
    INTUITIVELY learn
    Squishpoke wrote: »
    part of the fun

    It's both of these.
    For most, when a game is too difficult to learn it is not as fun. At the same time, when a game is too easy to learn it is not as fun. The proper balance is struck when upon need or failure the player can intuitively recognize the solution. This applies to basic mechanics and not to higher level learning ex. advanced movement skills and tactics.

    The armory example is in the right direction; upon receiving damage, when a player is near an armory a health symbol is displayed above. But, let's expand on that. A player that has received enough damage that their vision and audio is distorted has received the intuitive cue that they are injured and instinctually know they need health... but do they know if that is possible? Do they know where to get it if they aren't near an armory.
    Now this is only an non-thought-out solution, but should help drive the point. What if when the player was dangerously low on health (and has tool-tips / noob-system enabled) the player receives a new set of situation specific waypoints (arrows with health cross) indicating the nearest route to a health. Upon entering the room where the armory is located, not just a little cross above it, but either a visual pinging or glow would emanate from the armory.

    Here's another example. The player is in base with 10 res to spare. The system recognizes that their is a protolab with jetpants researched. "The System" (as I shall now call it), suggests to the player to don the jetpants by displaying a message, waypoints (situation specific; jet pants pics), and/or flash/glow the building.

    What overwhelms anybody to a new game, job, environment, etc. is having to filter out all the unneeded information. By overemphasizing the mechanics of interest to the player at any given time they will be more readily able to understand the game.

    What increases the intuitiveness of the game is a system that can interpret your needs.

  • CrazyEddieCrazyEddie Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178196Members
    You are the tutorial.

    Every time you leave the ready room, every time you spawn. Be the tutorial.

    Every game.
  • Super_GorgeSuper_Gorge Join Date: 2013-03-22 Member: 184212Members
    I really don't think Rookies should Com.

    I don't think anyone should Com until they have maybe 5 to 10 hours on the ground to know what their teammates need and when they need it. Also, having that experience tells you when to readjust your strategy, when to pick crag hive over shift or shade, where to place forward crag bases, when to rush exos rather than focus on upgrades. The game is dynamic and it helps to know what the conditions on the ground are like before getting into that chair.

    A bad com can really hamper a decent team where a good com can make a mediocre team good.

    Veterans this weekend should really be taking the Chair even if you normally don't. A bad experience with a bad com can turn off many players. Remember, we want as many people (who are interested) to join the game as regular players as possible. A F2P weekender in the chair is likely going to go bad unless they're facing ANOTHER F2P weekender in the hive.

    Anyways, I'm with Poochi that the game is pretty overwhelming and as the Devs aren't likely to do anything to make that simpler for new players, us Vets have to step up.

    One particularly good thing we could recommend is telling them to bind the map key to their mouse. The better they know the maps, the better their game experience will be.
  • lornlynxlornlynx Join Date: 2013-03-21 Member: 184144Members
    There needs to be a proper tutorial that is mandatory before you can start online games (or at least let a warning pop up when you start it for the first time.

    I am only a really fresh player as well, I play since about 1-2 weeks but what I recognized was that the ingame tutorial section is really really bad.
    I mean, tutorial videos are nice and all, but they give you no real feeling for the game and are still just an abstract way to teach you things. Many things you simply forget too fast, don't really listen or just can't grasp in these videos, instead with a real tutorial players are learning by doing, which is the right approach.

    Also the commander UI and view is really horrible and it is very hard to make any sense out of it when you play for the first time as commander. People probably get into it and expect it to have all the functionalities and features like an rts, and then they are confused when a lot of things work completely differently (like planting cysts manually, if no one tells you that, you might need ages to find that out).

    Ingame Tutorials for Marine Basics, Kharaa Basics and Commander Basics for both sides are desperately needed if you want to attract new players. Something that holds you by the hand and walks slowly with you through the different section. The tutorial videos and guide section of steam are definitely neat, but they just can't be a real substitute for a proper ingame tutorial.
  • Super_GorgeSuper_Gorge Join Date: 2013-03-22 Member: 184212Members
    lornlynx wrote: »
    There needs to be a proper tutorial that is mandatory before you can start online games (or at least let a warning pop up when you start it for the first time.

    I am only a really fresh player as well, I play since about 1-2 weeks but what I recognized was that the ingame tutorial section is really really bad.
    I mean, tutorial videos are nice and all, but they give you no real feeling for the game and are still just an abstract way to teach you things. Many things you simply forget too fast, don't really listen or just can't grasp in these videos, instead with a real tutorial players are learning by doing, which is the right approach.

    Also the commander UI and view is really horrible and it is very hard to make any sense out of it when you play for the first time as commander. People probably get into it and expect it to have all the functionalities and features like an rts, and then they are confused when a lot of things work completely differently (like planting cysts manually, if no one tells you that, you might need ages to find that out).

    Ingame Tutorials for Marine Basics, Kharaa Basics and Commander Basics for both sides are desperately needed if you want to attract new players. Something that holds you by the hand and walks slowly with you through the different section. The tutorial videos and guide section of steam are definitely neat, but they just can't be a real substitute for a proper ingame tutorial.

    Maybe they could give players an option after the mandatory basic tutorial to watch a game before starting?

    I watched about an hour of game play as spec before I played my first game. Helps.
  • lornlynxlornlynx Join Date: 2013-03-21 Member: 184144Members
    I watched about an hour of game play as spec before I played my first game. Helps.

    It certainly does, but a potential buyer that plays this game during free weekend doesn't want to first read some books before starting, he wants to jump straight into the action, he needs something interactive where he can try the mechanics of the game while learning the basics, an ingame tutorial or playing against bots is just perfect for this, especially if it is divided into basics and advanced things.
  • Rich_Rich_ Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167152Members
    There should be a 30 second video that runs on all free-to-play accounts through this weekend, and those who have rookie mode enabled. It should auto-play when the game is started up and you're at the main menu, emphasizing the importance of phase gates and hives. That would solve over half the nubblishness
  • eliotmateliotmat Join Date: 2002-12-01 Member: 10350Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I forgot about the free weekend and was playing as aliens wondering why everyone on my team was clueless..... Then someone on the server mentioned it.

    I've been trying to help the rookies a little bit. Suggesting that they follow me, remind them to crawl on ceilings and walls, and various little pointers can help. IMO the best way to help rookies is for a vet to go commander and really take charge and educate.

    I wish Alien commander had better tools to direct his or her minions. The alien rookies really seem to have a tough time.
  • TerranigmaTerranigma Join Date: 2010-04-03 Member: 71158Members
    edited March 2013
    Rich_ wrote: »
    There should be a 30 second video that runs on all free-to-play accounts through this weekend, and those who have rookie mode enabled. It should auto-play when the game is started up and you're at the main menu, emphasizing the importance of phase gates and hives. That would solve over half the nubblishness

    This.

    30 seconds are more than enough to explain in short, brief sentences what this game is about and what you, the player, are supposed to do when you play as alien or marine. This combined with in-game popups and holographic symbols which indicate the function and purpose of in-game entitites such as powernodes and buildings are mandatory. You cannot expect any customer to study videos before they can get into the thick of it, no one wants that. Learning the game by doing though, is a tough job as most games have a variety of in-game mechanics that acutually help you to learn the game. Various kinds of feedbacks, symbols, popups and tooltips - NS2 has none of that. If you start the game without knowing what to do you are lost and it you will loose most likely several games before you start getting an idea what's going on.

    This cannot be compared to a game such as TF2 where you, if you're familiar with shooters, know what to do. Aside, the game always tells you what you have to achive on a map or in a certain situation in order to win. NS2 does not. It doesn't even tell you what the buildings are good for, unless you command, which again, you're not supposed to do as a rookie. Only option for a new player is to quit the game and either go in the explore mode, watch videos or read wiki-articles. None of that is fun.


    A 30 second video that tells you the most basic prinicples of the game can be done, one for aliens and marines. That might do some good. More in-game information - symbols, tooltips, popups, etc. - would be a great addition NS2 really needs, especially for the free weekends. I've seen server full of rookies and nobody had a clue what was going on; very few have the endurance to keep playing a game that is for the first hour a mixture of confusion, frustration and helplesness.

    I still remember me playing NS1 for the first time. Well, I started with several friends but in the end, only I remained as most gave up. A game that needs to be explained before you can start playing it is usually not much fun; it's more fun to learn a game while you play it. If you try to do that in NS2 though, that won't do much good as it is practically impossible to find out certain things in-game unless you command, e.g. the use of buildings and such. Commanding as a rookie then again is the most certain way to get flamed and noone wants that.
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    The frustration when you basically lose a base and game to single Skulks because no marine rookie -despite your explaining, pleading and shouting- goes through a Phase Gate to save that base… seriously, they already look like doors and have a connecting line on the map - how could their purpose be even more obvious?

    I have no problem with rookies in themselves, but if they aren't clever enough to figure stuff out AND don't listen to any help either, it's getting frustrating to play. And aliens on the other hand don't know how to finish the game when it's actually over. Marines on 1 RT, not even really turtling, plenty of Onos, Fades and Gorges available, forward base right in front of the marine one and still nobody actually attacking.
  • KopungaKopunga Join Date: 2013-01-10 Member: 178764Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    CrazyEddie wrote: »
    You are the tutorial.

    Every time you leave the ready room, every time you spawn. Be the tutorial.

    Every game.

    True in a way. But especially on this free weekend, i ran into several rookies who didn't speak english or german. And sharing at least one language is from my pov kinda mandatory for explaining. Plus there are these guys i'm sure most of you know, who don't do anything usefull and don't responde to any advice, order, or even chat at all. And those are the ones stressing me out the most when i'm in the chair. I don't have a problem with rookies themselves. But rookies who won't listen and take no advice and keep doing nonsense... thats kind of a game loser. Especially when there's several of them in one team.
    So all in all, i try to be the tutorial, but it's frustrating if your efforts go unheard.
  • WarmongerWarmonger Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13126Members, Constellation
    Maybe they could give players an option after the mandatory basic tutorial to watch a game before starting?

    I watched about an hour of game play as spec before I played my first game. Helps.
    I agree, and I have said many times that servers operators need the option to have 1 or 2 dedicated spectate slots that are not using up team slots. Otherwise, as soon as the slots fill up and the teams become imbalanced everyone will be complaining to the newbie spectator to join a team or leave.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    it's fine - they just need to die more often and hugh's tips will turn them insta-pro :p
  • XaoXao Join Date: 2012-12-12 Member: 174840Members
    Bases full of idiots watching poncy videos, FARRRRRRRKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.
  • MrPinkMrPink Join Date: 2002-05-28 Member: 678Members
    F2P comm vs. F2P comm is the worst. The game just stalls and never goes anywhere so it's a pointless deathmatch.
  • ogzogz Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9765Members
    Will videos really solve it?

    I like the idea of a tutorial map more
  • pendelum5pendelum5 Join Date: 2012-10-29 Member: 164317Members
    CS:GO Has a really great tutorial level. It even has a shoot house at the end that times you. I'd like to see something similar for both teams; Targets popping up while you build an extractor, or how fast you can wall jump down a hallway to finish off a weakened power node.
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    The perfect solution would be to enable bots for offline training and practice, but in a game this complex programming bots that behave in a realistic manner similar to players is nearly impossible. They could put in a better tutorial system than a bunch of YouTube links, though. Maybe have new players go through a mini-tutorial level where they have to build new buildings, use armories, evolve upgrades as aliens, etc, etc
  • Angelo85Angelo85 Join Date: 2012-08-03 Member: 154662Members
    Or tie the Tutorials of the game mechanics to Steam achievements. This way you ensure 99% of the people do the Tutorial :D
  • Super_GorgeSuper_Gorge Join Date: 2013-03-22 Member: 184212Members
    MrPink wrote: »
    F2P comm vs. F2P comm is the worst. The game just stalls and never goes anywhere so it's a pointless deathmatch.

    At least it's even.

    Veteran Com against new free weekender is going to end badly for the free weekender's team.

    Played this one game where the Marine com had on AVERAGE 160 res and we still didn't have upgrades or protolabs. One of the veterans ninjaed a base and we finally got a phase gate.

    I've been Com a few times this free weekend and I rarely see teams that get that kind of res. In 20 minutes I had my team everything, in addition to sentry-ing up every base, building multiple robotics labs (and then arc factory), upgrading every armory to advanced, and scanning the crap out of everything. I can't even spend money that fast. Littered the battlefield with medipacks and ammo drops. A com should never go above 50 res. At the end, was down to 30 res after repeatedly scanning server room to ensure that every enemy and structure had the target on it. Between ARC push and lots of exo it wasn't really fair.
  • rook2pawnrook2pawn Join Date: 2008-07-03 Member: 64552Members
    Free weekenders SHOULD NOT BE GETTING IN THE COMM CHAIR. At least on a highly populated server.

    I took at least a month of learning NS1 and what each piece of equipment does before I jumped in the chair, and not before i jumped in a comm chair on a bot server.
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