Honestly, I don't think there's much of a problem. I've been getting plenty of kills whenever I skulk. I said this in another thread, but I'll say it here as well:
A marine who repeatedly jumps up and down is displaying little skill.
A marine who repeatedly jumps will quickly suffer a movement penalty.
A movement penalty will make a marine easier to kill.
A marine who repeatedly jumps would have been better off choosing a different movement pattern, because he is now dead.
A talented marine who carefully jumps while dodging and circle-strafing is displaying a reasonable degree of skill.
A talented marine who carefully jumps while dodging and circle-strafing intends to survive.
Skulking against a talented marine requires a comparably reasonable degree of skill.
Skulking against a talented marine requires careful timing and manipulation of both the marine and the environment.
A skulk has more movement options than the grounded marine, including the ability to utilize an entirely different axis.
The talented skulk intends to use its movement advantages, because it intends to kill the talented marine.
THOUGHTS ON RECENT CHANGES:
---The hitbox fix was absolutely needed. It's representative, as it should be. This does mean that skulks using old tactics will die more these days, but that's only because they're a bit used to not getting shot when they should've been. It was most apparent when tracking skulks on vertical surfaces.
---The quantum skulk effect was very frustrating, and I always used it to my advantage when combating marines. The acceleration change was important for this reason; skulk movement appears more biomechanically plausible now, and less like a glitchy string of animation. I now have to be more tactically minded when I get into skirmishes.
---The ground deceleration issue was a bug and is now fixed. As far as I can tell, walljumping is back to what it was. I have no problems pulling it off, at least.
The latest corrections absolutely represent progress.
A FEW IDEAS ON HOW SKULKS MIGHT BE IMPROVED WITHOUT CHANGING MARINE OR SKULK ACCELERATION:
****Skulks might benefit from a marginally improved walljump. Maybe an additional 5-10% speed boost on the initial jump, and perhaps a smoother way to chain jumps together. Similarly, it may be better if the speed boost took slightly longer to wear off, meaning that ambushes would be more effective.
****Alternately, drop celerity to a flat 25%-35% of its original effect in combat (rather than 0% of its original effect, as things are now).
****Alternately, have celerity diminish gradually in combat as function of damage taken in a short period (determined by how much is lost as a % of overall health) rather than the current, strict drop to 0% when any damage is given or taken.
(To explain the last suggestion by way of example: celerity would start off at an initial 65% efficacy when you made your first bite, and would then only drop off in combat only as you TOOK more damage in a given period of time. The lower floor would be normal speed and the upper ceiling - with no damage taken - would be 65% celerity (or some other value established by the devs).
In this scenario, skulks would maintain their speed the longer they could effectively dodge, and even the fully-slowed skulk would be going no slower than he is right now. It rewards marines for doing bursts of damage, and it rewards skulks for ambushing and dodging, and it keeps celerity viable in combat.)
I don't feel that any of these are necessary, though.
Still even with that being the case I've seen marines live improbably long with 4+ skulks on them when jumping wildly. I know I was on target the majority of the time, surely the other guys were also landing at least some bites. Seems like there is all sorts of weirdness going on that isn't helping when combined with new concrete skulk acceleration.
I've seen groups of skulks on my team jumping around and circling a marine like some insane pack of dementia victims for over fifteen or twenty seconds at a time. I've wondered "what the hell is going on?" before walking over and carefully chomping the marine to death in a matter of seconds. It's not an issue with the engine; it's that people are trying to chase the marine rather than predict where he's going to land.
Things have changed for skulks, but they can be just as effective if they're willing to not do the exact same thing they've been doing since release.
I enjoyed marines because it was always a challenge to win, it actually took great team work most of the time, now it's too easy tbh, a 50% win ratio is NOT what I want for this game. I want aliens to have an easier time and marines have to fight for the chance to win.
I want a situation where at the start of any round, the probability of each team winning that round is 50%. We're very close to that, but that's not the whole story. I, too, want marines to feel afraid, to have to work for the win, but for the right reasons, not because they are statistically less likely to be able to win. In the latest patches, marines can be carried by 1 or 2 great players where previously they didn't quite as much of a difference. Similarly before, aliens could be carried by 1 or 2 great skulks decimating marines. Now aliens have to work together, in my view, more than marines - but mostly in the early game. The pendulum of 'teamwork requirement' has swung just a teeny bit too far, I think, but it's not a million miles off where I think it should be.
Where the problems as I see them exist are the following:
1) Skulk 'feels' heavy and this detracts from the enjoyment in the game for many people. I personally think the skulk-marine balance is a bit off (I used to do about the same as skulk and marine, now I dominate far more often as marine compared to as skulk), but I think the winrates are more dominated by different rates of snowballing as aliens vs marines...
2) Snowballing is too dramatic in the early game, and arguably not quite dramatic enough for the end game for aliens. By this I mean that one or two key encounters at the beginning tend to decide the match too often. Of course there are exceptions, but I think it's possible to call the majority of games, or certainly an unduly large percentage of games, from way too early in the game.
3) The requirement for good teamwork is very difficult to balance alongside the requirement to allow highly skill players to make a significant impact on their team - conversely, one or two bad players on a team can really decide games at the minute where perhaps these effects could be toned down in an ideal case.
I feel that if you lose several key encounters as marines, the alien snowball happens quite quickly and the mid-game becomes heavily dominated by aliens. If you lose key encounters as aliens, there is a bit more forgiveness on the whole during the mid game - that is to say marines take slightly longer to reach 'top tier tech' than aliens do, where 2 hives are sufficient to get most lifeforms their major upgrades.
So back on topic: I find the early game skulk-marine interplay has shifted too much in favour of marines, which is not a problem with marine movement, but rather a problem with alien movement feeling too sluggish still.
I wish I had some answers for the problems I've outlined as I see them. Balancing this game has to be one of the hardest things, and I have to congratulate UWE on getting it as close as they have. I'm keen to see what the upcoming patches will do, and of course want to recommend that everyone here goes to play Sewlek's balance test mod
As far as I can tell, walljumping is back to what it was. I have no problems pulling it off, at least.
No, it's not the same it was in 239 (or even 240 for that matter). You might be able to get a slight speed boost off walls, but you can no longer string walljumps to achieve great speeds because walls apply friction immediately AKA the same bug we had on the ground. This was added in 241 and apparently is intended -- it's unchanged in the beta build 242. It does not have anything to do with the acceleration changes.
I got tired of explaining this and even posted two videos comparing wall jumps in 239 and 241, but apparently nobody seems to have noticed the friction thingy so far.
Where the problems as I see them exist are the following:
1) Skulk 'feels' heavy and this detracts from the enjoyment in the game for many people. I personally think the skulk-marine balance is a bit off (I used to do about the same as skulk and marine, now I dominate far more often as marine compared to as skulk), but I think the winrates are more dominated by different rates of snowballing as aliens vs marines...
2) Snowballing is too dramatic in the early game, and arguably not quite dramatic enough for the end game for aliens. By this I mean that one or two key encounters at the beginning tend to decide the match too often. Of course there are exceptions, but I think it's possible to call the majority of games, or certainly an unduly large percentage of games, from way too early in the game.
I feel this is this biggest issue, Skulks just aren't fun anymore. Trying to chase after marines jumping around isn't fun, feeling like your running through goo to get anywhere isn't fun, losing as a Skulk still isn't fun.
The snowballing effect means a lot of games can be decided in under 5 minutes. If the marines are winning at that point chances are they won't actually be able to kill the alien team outright for another 10 minutes at least but aliens will be having lifespans of about 20 seconds. Losing as marines is significantly more fun than losing as aliens so if aliens win the 5 minute engagements it's not quite so bad for fun.
Even if aliens are winning Skulk are way less fun now and late game feel pretty useless. While it might be possible to still easily kill jumping marines it's not fun trying to chase them, it makes you feel clunky and slow. Trying to kill jetpackers is even worse. As a stock marine I feel useful and productive through out the game, as a Skulk I just feel useless.
Maybe the Skulk players need to Evolve.... sorry I couldn't resist it
Seriously though it is frustrating, the Marine is supposed to be wearing battle armour, but as others have pointed out you have to modify your playing behaviour after they changed the Skulk characteristics.
Its to easy to get annoyed when you Skulk pops faster than a bowl of rice crispies by a jumping marine but it is also more rewarding when you chomp 3 in a row
@AngryChild, would you care to elaborate on the part(s) of my post with which you disagree? I don't think what I wrote is that contentious and i am interested in what you think.
As a side note, the bite detection is broken. During those high speed marine evades, many times I have his body almost perfectly centered in my screen and my bite only does 25 dmg.. I realize how this feature works so don't explain it to me - I know where the limits are to get 75, 50, or 25 dmg, and the bites should definitely be scoring a 75 hit. MAYBE some should get a 50, but no chance on the 25 .. I attribute it to laggy hitboxes but I'm not sure what the problem is. But it gives dancing marines yet another unfair advantage over base skulks.
This is not really a bug. I would bet, you look up while biting the marine in those cases. Now, if nothing has changed, the bite cone is a pyramid with its peak in the center of the skulk-model. As you mentioned, you already know, around this (75damage) pyramid is another pyramid (50damage) with a bigger bottom and around this one is a pyramid (25damage) with an even bigger bottom.
Now imagine yourself as little skulk looking up to the crutch of the marine. (Your hit-cone is now oriented in the same way!) If you are now slightly to far away, the 75d-pyramid will not touch the marine model, but maybe the edges of one of the greater pyramids will. Those getting lower damage while looking exactly at the marine model.
tl;dr: Looking up will shorten your horizontal bite-range. If you want to look up to see the marine better, you need to get closer to register a hit with the 75d cone.
I understand what you mean but usually I am very close to the marine, I find being as close as possible while I circle bite throws peoples aim off better - so I do tend to look up a little as you said but at the range I am at, it should definitely be a 75 hit. I'll try to get a video to illustrate this.
The point being, I never notice a problem with a visually perfect bite only doing 25 dmg unless the marine is dancing. I am able to bite them in the air as they jump, but it only does 25 dmg. It just doesn't feel right.
If the marine keeps jumping doesn't he get tired so-to-speak and the jumping height is less and less until it's basically nothing? That's what I experienced just now when trying it out anyway. I'd figure the skulk should be able to kill a hopping marine pretty easily in this case.
If the marine keeps jumping doesn't he get tired so-to-speak and the jumping height is less and less until it's basically nothing? That's what I experienced just now when trying it out anyway. I'd figure the skulk should be able to kill a hopping marine pretty easily in this case.
Only if you spam jump, if you leave a slight delay in between each jump or jump onto a higher surface you can keep going and going. If they just spam jump then yeh it's pretty easy to kill them, it's the ones who wait till your just about in range then jump away, then wait and jump ad death that are the issue. On one hand yeh it does take some skill to do this, and it sucks to remove skillful abilities from the game. On the other hand I (and from threads like this it seems others) are having very little fun playing against this style of movement now.
I saw now because of course marine movement is the same as it's been for ages. It's the skulk movement that's been modified, jumping marines with the old Skulk were never the issue they are now.
You started it off, both in your opening and your topic, talking about marines bunny-hopping (which, by the way, it is not), but then you just went off on a tangent about the skulk changes.
The way marines are more agile than skulks now *is* an issue (especially their damn jumping, which is silly and frustrating), and is what I think you were trying to say, but I have to disagree with the idea of REDUCING marine mobility. I think, perhaps, limiting it, by tying both their sprint and their jump to a regenerating stamina bar, to allow them to either hop around like an idiot or drop their guns and book, not both, and neither for very long, would be the best way.
But that's besides the point. I think everything being nerfed is bad. Nobody likes to play a game where they feel weak and ineffectual, and in that case, it's better to bump everything that isn't working up rather than to knock what is working down.
Marines don't need to be nerfed; perhaps have their movement style changed as well, so that they're not a deadly CQC master or a jumping dynamo (at least without a jetpack or a shotgun), but certainly not nerfed.
The devs need to find a way to make skulk movement feel fun and enjoyable again without breaking their hitboxes or skewing the playing field too much.
Great explanation what the problem is by Farknut's (p1) and Emoo's (p2) posts.
Everybody: I do NOT want to nerf Marine movement/jumping!!! It should stay exactly as it is now!!! Changing Marine movement would be exactly repeating the mistake that was made with the Skulk (see the bolded part in the last quote).
At the very least, any "buff" to aliens can only negatively impact marines, and they're still not at the magical 50% win rate yet. So making such a change would likely induce an additional marine buff to compensate, since I doubt UWE would intentionally introduce a change that would for sure negatively affect the overall balance that they're currently seeing (48/52).
Then buff Marines like hell What's the problem with that?
I just think "balance" took a wrong turn with the Skulk movement nerf, and if it isn't fixed we're on a fundamentally less fun route now, no matter future balance changes.
Playing Marines is more boring, predictable and feels like going through the motions without any challenge or surprise.
Playing Aliens isn't a challenge like Marine could be before 240 (even if you lost, soloing Harvesters and upgrades was still fun), it's just either no problem (Marine aim + jumps not good enough) or plain frustrating (Marine aim + jumps good enough).
So now put yourself in their shoes... what else would you change to compensate such that reverting to the pre-Gorgeous skulk movement code doesn't also revert balance to pre-240? Because that's a nightmare. I suspect the answer to this question is not the least bit trivial, and requires more thought than "gee, the skulk players don't enjoy being skulk as much, let's just give them what they want." I suspect many of the devs play the game regularly as both sides, and as such there must be some awareness.
The hitreg change did A LOT on its own.
Ideas how to "fix":
- give back Skulks acceleration/friction values (or whatever causes the problem), or make their movement competitive with a Marine's values some other way
Because: the only way to really fix the problem is to fix the problem. Directly. It's that simple :P
Skulk OP now? 60% Alien stomp back? Nerf Skulks like hell, buff Marines like hell!!! For example:
- give Skulk less HP or Marines more HP
- change Skulk HP/Armor ratio so it's easier to kill one with an LMG
- increase LMG damage
- reduce Skulk damage from 25/50/75 to 20/40/60 or whatever
- make Skulk bite slower (less DPS)
- smaller bite cones for full hits
- you get the idea! direct nerfs of Skulks or buffs of Marines...
How to NOT fix it (these would be cheap workarounds):
- make Celerity work in combat. This may be needed for other reasons (Onos...), but it wouldn't fix it as that Celerity would be a necessary upgrade for Skulks like Carapace is for most higher lifeforms
- faster Alien spawning/less egg lock. Running to your frustrating death more often does not make it less frustrating.
- Focus upgrade (dual damage, slower attack, same DPS). Same reason as with celerity. It's not a real fix.
- Anything else that is just a workaround instead of a fix.
If UWE are worried of Alien stomps coming back, I totally wouldn't mind if Marines get buffed until we have a 70% Marine win rate - if that meant this would be alleviated by the return of the old Skulk movement or at least a competitive new Skulk movement.
I don't care which buff happens at first, just fix the Skulk vs Marine hopping (not bunnyhopping, thanks for the corrections) issue.
I think everything being nerfed is bad. Nobody likes to play a game where they feel weak and ineffectual, and in that case, it's better to bump everything that isn't working up rather than to knock what is working down.
...
The devs need to find a way to make skulk movement feel fun and enjoyable again without breaking their hitboxes or skewing the playing field too much.
YES!!! 100% agree!! (oops, ran out of exclamation marks)
Make something fun and potentially OP, and balance it by something fun and potentially OP.
How to fix problems: Fix them step by step, from the start.
How to not fix problems: see the sweet 50% win rate and be afraid to break it.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I seriously do not experience a problem as a skulk.
You already should be off the floor and/or jumping around to dodge. Might aswell walljump while doing it.
I have few problems closing in the space between me and a marine.
Shotgunners I have a bigger problem with, but thats me adapting.. not the actual shotgun.
No I think skulk movement is fine on the reason that I do not experience a problem.
I seriously do not experience a problem as a skulk.
You already should be off the floor and/or jumping around to dodge. Might aswell walljump while doing it.
Congrats on that, but it isn't the issue we are talking about.
While I don't have any problem biting marines, I do think that the new dumbed-down skulk movement is pretty shitty. There's no speed boost from wall jumping at all anymore... you get the initial "boost" while you're falling but as soon as you touch a surface the speed goes away.
Before 240 there were obvious problems concerning Hit Reg.
In 240 and 241 they have been mostly (if not totally) fixed, and this alone affects aliens quite a bit.
I don't understand why UWE decided to nerf skulks and fix hitreg at the same time.
They both seem very important changes to me, things that I would want to keep separate in my changelogs.
I wonder how the game would feel if hitreg was fixed but skulks left untouched.
Anyone else feel like skulks are a lot faster in b242?
It's that or I became amazing over night.
They don't feel *quite* as heavy to me, but still not massively fun to play much of the time. Getting better, I think. Perhaps the performance improvements are just making it feel a little smoother... I don't know.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
Any ability that limits marine mobility is terribly frustrating to play. Gorge spit use to slow down marines on top of vision blocking. It was infuriating. Rifle knockback use to stun skulks, another terrible addition that was justly removed. Stomp gets flak for this also, thankfully it's rarely seen in the average game. Getting captured in bone wall is uncommon but equally annoying.
The problem is that the phrase "bunny hopping" is ambiguous. As a piece of jargon, it refers to the particular movement technique (or set of similar techniques) that arose by accident from a glitch in one engine but which became widely accepted as a standard element of FPS gameplay. As a non-jargon term, it carries the normal sense of simply "hopping like a bunny", which can describe a wide variety of possible movements commonly used within an FPS. It should come as no surprise to anyone that the two meanings often get confused.
I suggest that anyone who wishes to make themselves understood avoid the phrase altogether, and use one of these two alternatives:
"bhop" or "bhopping" for the jargon usage
"hopping like a bunny" for the normal usage (or simply "jumping", or "bouncing" if you wish to convey the sense that is it somewhat silly or abnormal)
If you use those wordings, everyone will understand what you mean without having to explain yourself, and no one will get upset that you're using a term "incorrectly".
I still don't like skulks but not for this reason. I never had much trouble killing them before the patch unless they were obviously better at the game than I was, and I still don't, though it has gotten noticeably easier to kill them.
If anything, the problem with skulks vs marines is that marines win by clumping up and shooting properly, which works in any circumstance, while skulks win largely by hoping the marines don't notice them until they get relatively close, or hoping they miss lots.
Skulk vs marine necessarily puts the skulk at the mercy of the marine for most of the engagement, at least in anything other than an ambush scenario (which is hardly practical all the time, certainly not when you're attacking).
A chunk of skulk combat effectiveness is based around what amounts to good luck, hoping the marine is a poor shot so you can get close, or hoping he doesn't notice the noise you're making when you try to get close to him from behind.
Now, while that seems to be working out mostly fine, as in, marines often are bad enough that you can kill them. It does make the skulk gameplay a little... unfulfilling. I am not succeeding as a skulk, marines are failing enough to allow me to not lose.
With marines it's always about what I can do to maximise the probability of a successful outcome to a situation. With skulks, well, being as their movement gimmick is not strong enough to hold its own in sustained combat, mostly it's about hoping the marines don't kill me.
All the other alien classes have something that lets them fight on the field. Lerks move really fast and create obscuring gas to mask their exit, as well as being generally move maneuverable than the skulk and having a ranged opener and more health. Fades have an excellent variety of combat movement options that allows them to get into, around, and out of combat very quickly and comprehensibly from their perspective. Onoses are huge and hit stuff, they do this very well. Also they can move quite fast.
Skulks are noticeably deficient in their ability to be played effectively. No doubt it's possible for a player to get good enough at them that they can get kills and consistently use the rather impractical walljumping to offset the general brick-like nature of the skulk movement. But the level of attention required compared to any other lifeform or marine weapon in the game is just... not comparable.
About the only thing that can be compared is the basic rifle, and even then that is still much easier to use, you get a massive margin for error in a magazine when it comes to fighting skulks, and you usually get time to empty at least one magazine before the skulk can even begin to attack you, to say nothing of the three solid hits he needs to get before you actually die, which can easily be time for you to spray bullets wildly around you and knock a decent chunk of his health without even trying.
Basically, skulks can't do much in combat because they're kinda slow and have no ranged attacks, marines can always do something in combat because they're relatively tough and have all the ranged attacks. This means skulk vs marine is always going to be 5 seconds of a skulk getting shot at, and then if it survives that, 5 seconds of flailing around where both parties try to hit each other in melee. Getting past that first five seconds is often neither practical nor enjoyable.
5 seconds of being shot at? Really? Even 2 seconds seems like a lot to me unless you are charging down a long hall way? If you give the marine 5 seconds of long range shooting at you, he deserves to win in that instance.
My experience is different to yours and my complaint relates to what happens when you have already closed the distance by ambush / wall jumps.
As marine when a skulk comes flying off the ceiling at me, I usually push A or D, jump once whilst tracking the skulk in a 180 degree arc past me. (As pretty much every marine I encountered pre free weekend did, some a damn lot better than I can too) Some skulks have guessed I will do this and will still be in bite range, others will go flying past and usually die because although they have seen where the marine went and turn to follow him, the skulk is too slow and can't keep up. It's this last bit that is the problem imo.
100% agree with this too. I've occasionally seen marines live up to 10 seconds jumping around wildly with myself and 4 other skulks on them trying to get bites in, and I know I've put what felt like it should have been 10 bites on them alone.
It takes really awful skulks if there's 5 of them unable to kill a Marine while at close range in 10 seconds LOL
100% agree with this too. I've occasionally seen marines live up to 10 seconds jumping around wildly with myself and 4 other skulks on them trying to get bites in, and I know I've put what felt like it should have been 10 bites on them alone.
It takes really awful skulks if there's 5 of them unable to kill a Marine while at close range in 10 seconds LOL
LOLOLOL I'm sure they were just all terrible, that must be it! Herplederp. How is marine bitted?
NarfwakJoin Date: 2002-11-02Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
I think a lot of this can be pegged on the difference in FOV for marines and aliens... lots of people seem to misjudge distance to target as the slightly wider FOV makes the world look bigger and more distant in general. You may feel like you're moving really fast and being a total badass when from the perspective of marines you look like a derpfish flopping around in front of them (been there, done that >_>).
While I can appreciate the feeling of frustration the bottom line is that there's a lot of good skulk players out there that don't have this problem. Try to take some tips from players you see doing well with melee classes, get a feel for what works and what doesn't in skulk movement from a marine perspective, or maybe try getting a crosshair mod that includes a crosshair and hit indicator for melee weapons (this one helps me a lot).
Comments
THOUGHTS ON RECENT CHANGES:
---The hitbox fix was absolutely needed. It's representative, as it should be. This does mean that skulks using old tactics will die more these days, but that's only because they're a bit used to not getting shot when they should've been. It was most apparent when tracking skulks on vertical surfaces.
---The quantum skulk effect was very frustrating, and I always used it to my advantage when combating marines. The acceleration change was important for this reason; skulk movement appears more biomechanically plausible now, and less like a glitchy string of animation. I now have to be more tactically minded when I get into skirmishes.
---The ground deceleration issue was a bug and is now fixed. As far as I can tell, walljumping is back to what it was. I have no problems pulling it off, at least.
The latest corrections absolutely represent progress.
A FEW IDEAS ON HOW SKULKS MIGHT BE IMPROVED WITHOUT CHANGING MARINE OR SKULK ACCELERATION:
****Skulks might benefit from a marginally improved walljump. Maybe an additional 5-10% speed boost on the initial jump, and perhaps a smoother way to chain jumps together. Similarly, it may be better if the speed boost took slightly longer to wear off, meaning that ambushes would be more effective.
****Alternately, drop celerity to a flat 25%-35% of its original effect in combat (rather than 0% of its original effect, as things are now).
****Alternately, have celerity diminish gradually in combat as function of damage taken in a short period (determined by how much is lost as a % of overall health) rather than the current, strict drop to 0% when any damage is given or taken.
(To explain the last suggestion by way of example: celerity would start off at an initial 65% efficacy when you made your first bite, and would then only drop off in combat only as you TOOK more damage in a given period of time. The lower floor would be normal speed and the upper ceiling - with no damage taken - would be 65% celerity (or some other value established by the devs).
In this scenario, skulks would maintain their speed the longer they could effectively dodge, and even the fully-slowed skulk would be going no slower than he is right now. It rewards marines for doing bursts of damage, and it rewards skulks for ambushing and dodging, and it keeps celerity viable in combat.)
I don't feel that any of these are necessary, though.
Things have changed for skulks, but they can be just as effective if they're willing to not do the exact same thing they've been doing since release.
I want a situation where at the start of any round, the probability of each team winning that round is 50%. We're very close to that, but that's not the whole story. I, too, want marines to feel afraid, to have to work for the win, but for the right reasons, not because they are statistically less likely to be able to win. In the latest patches, marines can be carried by 1 or 2 great players where previously they didn't quite as much of a difference. Similarly before, aliens could be carried by 1 or 2 great skulks decimating marines. Now aliens have to work together, in my view, more than marines - but mostly in the early game. The pendulum of 'teamwork requirement' has swung just a teeny bit too far, I think, but it's not a million miles off where I think it should be.
Where the problems as I see them exist are the following:
1) Skulk 'feels' heavy and this detracts from the enjoyment in the game for many people. I personally think the skulk-marine balance is a bit off (I used to do about the same as skulk and marine, now I dominate far more often as marine compared to as skulk), but I think the winrates are more dominated by different rates of snowballing as aliens vs marines...
2) Snowballing is too dramatic in the early game, and arguably not quite dramatic enough for the end game for aliens. By this I mean that one or two key encounters at the beginning tend to decide the match too often. Of course there are exceptions, but I think it's possible to call the majority of games, or certainly an unduly large percentage of games, from way too early in the game.
3) The requirement for good teamwork is very difficult to balance alongside the requirement to allow highly skill players to make a significant impact on their team - conversely, one or two bad players on a team can really decide games at the minute where perhaps these effects could be toned down in an ideal case.
I feel that if you lose several key encounters as marines, the alien snowball happens quite quickly and the mid-game becomes heavily dominated by aliens. If you lose key encounters as aliens, there is a bit more forgiveness on the whole during the mid game - that is to say marines take slightly longer to reach 'top tier tech' than aliens do, where 2 hives are sufficient to get most lifeforms their major upgrades.
So back on topic: I find the early game skulk-marine interplay has shifted too much in favour of marines, which is not a problem with marine movement, but rather a problem with alien movement feeling too sluggish still.
I wish I had some answers for the problems I've outlined as I see them. Balancing this game has to be one of the hardest things, and I have to congratulate UWE on getting it as close as they have. I'm keen to see what the upcoming patches will do, and of course want to recommend that everyone here goes to play Sewlek's balance test mod
No, it's not the same it was in 239 (or even 240 for that matter). You might be able to get a slight speed boost off walls, but you can no longer string walljumps to achieve great speeds because walls apply friction immediately AKA the same bug we had on the ground. This was added in 241 and apparently is intended -- it's unchanged in the beta build 242. It does not have anything to do with the acceleration changes.
I got tired of explaining this and even posted two videos comparing wall jumps in 239 and 241, but apparently nobody seems to have noticed the friction thingy so far.
I feel this is this biggest issue, Skulks just aren't fun anymore. Trying to chase after marines jumping around isn't fun, feeling like your running through goo to get anywhere isn't fun, losing as a Skulk still isn't fun.
The snowballing effect means a lot of games can be decided in under 5 minutes. If the marines are winning at that point chances are they won't actually be able to kill the alien team outright for another 10 minutes at least but aliens will be having lifespans of about 20 seconds. Losing as marines is significantly more fun than losing as aliens so if aliens win the 5 minute engagements it's not quite so bad for fun.
Even if aliens are winning Skulk are way less fun now and late game feel pretty useless. While it might be possible to still easily kill jumping marines it's not fun trying to chase them, it makes you feel clunky and slow. Trying to kill jetpackers is even worse. As a stock marine I feel useful and productive through out the game, as a Skulk I just feel useless.
Seriously though it is frustrating, the Marine is supposed to be wearing battle armour, but as others have pointed out you have to modify your playing behaviour after they changed the Skulk characteristics.
Its to easy to get annoyed when you Skulk pops faster than a bowl of rice crispies by a jumping marine but it is also more rewarding when you chomp 3 in a row
I understand what you mean but usually I am very close to the marine, I find being as close as possible while I circle bite throws peoples aim off better - so I do tend to look up a little as you said but at the range I am at, it should definitely be a 75 hit. I'll try to get a video to illustrate this.
The point being, I never notice a problem with a visually perfect bite only doing 25 dmg unless the marine is dancing. I am able to bite them in the air as they jump, but it only does 25 dmg. It just doesn't feel right.
Only if you spam jump, if you leave a slight delay in between each jump or jump onto a higher surface you can keep going and going. If they just spam jump then yeh it's pretty easy to kill them, it's the ones who wait till your just about in range then jump away, then wait and jump ad death that are the issue. On one hand yeh it does take some skill to do this, and it sucks to remove skillful abilities from the game. On the other hand I (and from threads like this it seems others) are having very little fun playing against this style of movement now.
I saw now because of course marine movement is the same as it's been for ages. It's the skulk movement that's been modified, jumping marines with the old Skulk were never the issue they are now.
You started it off, both in your opening and your topic, talking about marines bunny-hopping (which, by the way, it is not), but then you just went off on a tangent about the skulk changes.
The way marines are more agile than skulks now *is* an issue (especially their damn jumping, which is silly and frustrating), and is what I think you were trying to say, but I have to disagree with the idea of REDUCING marine mobility. I think, perhaps, limiting it, by tying both their sprint and their jump to a regenerating stamina bar, to allow them to either hop around like an idiot or drop their guns and book, not both, and neither for very long, would be the best way.
But that's besides the point. I think everything being nerfed is bad. Nobody likes to play a game where they feel weak and ineffectual, and in that case, it's better to bump everything that isn't working up rather than to knock what is working down.
Marines don't need to be nerfed; perhaps have their movement style changed as well, so that they're not a deadly CQC master or a jumping dynamo (at least without a jetpack or a shotgun), but certainly not nerfed.
The devs need to find a way to make skulk movement feel fun and enjoyable again without breaking their hitboxes or skewing the playing field too much.
Everybody: I do NOT want to nerf Marine movement/jumping!!! It should stay exactly as it is now!!! Changing Marine movement would be exactly repeating the mistake that was made with the Skulk (see the bolded part in the last quote).
This is exactly what happened in 240. There was the hitreg change, and the Skulk. Not much more. Then buff Marines like hell
I just think "balance" took a wrong turn with the Skulk movement nerf, and if it isn't fixed we're on a fundamentally less fun route now, no matter future balance changes.
Playing Marines is more boring, predictable and feels like going through the motions without any challenge or surprise.
Playing Aliens isn't a challenge like Marine could be before 240 (even if you lost, soloing Harvesters and upgrades was still fun), it's just either no problem (Marine aim + jumps not good enough) or plain frustrating (Marine aim + jumps good enough).
The hitreg change did A LOT on its own.
Ideas how to "fix":
- give back Skulks acceleration/friction values (or whatever causes the problem), or make their movement competitive with a Marine's values some other way
Because: the only way to really fix the problem is to fix the problem. Directly. It's that simple :P
Skulk OP now? 60% Alien stomp back? Nerf Skulks like hell, buff Marines like hell!!! For example:
- give Skulk less HP or Marines more HP
- change Skulk HP/Armor ratio so it's easier to kill one with an LMG
- increase LMG damage
- reduce Skulk damage from 25/50/75 to 20/40/60 or whatever
- make Skulk bite slower (less DPS)
- smaller bite cones for full hits
- you get the idea! direct nerfs of Skulks or buffs of Marines...
How to NOT fix it (these would be cheap workarounds):
- make Celerity work in combat. This may be needed for other reasons (Onos...), but it wouldn't fix it as that Celerity would be a necessary upgrade for Skulks like Carapace is for most higher lifeforms
- faster Alien spawning/less egg lock. Running to your frustrating death more often does not make it less frustrating.
- Focus upgrade (dual damage, slower attack, same DPS). Same reason as with celerity. It's not a real fix.
- Anything else that is just a workaround instead of a fix.
If UWE are worried of Alien stomps coming back, I totally wouldn't mind if Marines get buffed until we have a 70% Marine win rate - if that meant this would be alleviated by the return of the old Skulk movement or at least a competitive new Skulk movement.
I don't care which buff happens at first, just fix the Skulk vs Marine hopping (not bunnyhopping, thanks for the corrections) issue.
This is why I asked for some dev comments
YES!!! 100% agree!! (oops, ran out of exclamation marks)
Make something fun and potentially OP, and balance it by something fun and potentially OP.
How to fix problems: Fix them step by step, from the start.
How to not fix problems: see the sweet 50% win rate and be afraid to break it.
You already should be off the floor and/or jumping around to dodge. Might aswell walljump while doing it.
I have few problems closing in the space between me and a marine.
Shotgunners I have a bigger problem with, but thats me adapting.. not the actual shotgun.
No I think skulk movement is fine on the reason that I do not experience a problem.
Congrats on that, but it isn't the issue we are talking about.
In 240 and 241 they have been mostly (if not totally) fixed, and this alone affects aliens quite a bit.
I don't understand why UWE decided to nerf skulks and fix hitreg at the same time.
They both seem very important changes to me, things that I would want to keep separate in my changelogs.
I wonder how the game would feel if hitreg was fixed but skulks left untouched.
JUMPING A LOT != BUNNYHOPPING. IT'S JUST SPAMMING THE SPACEBAR.
And to the OP, play Sewlek's Balance Mod. Then delete this thread.
It's that or I became amazing over night.
They don't feel *quite* as heavy to me, but still not massively fun to play much of the time. Getting better, I think. Perhaps the performance improvements are just making it feel a little smoother... I don't know.
I suggest that anyone who wishes to make themselves understood avoid the phrase altogether, and use one of these two alternatives:
- "bhop" or "bhopping" for the jargon usage
- "hopping like a bunny" for the normal usage (or simply "jumping", or "bouncing" if you wish to convey the sense that is it somewhat silly or abnormal)
If you use those wordings, everyone will understand what you mean without having to explain yourself, and no one will get upset that you're using a term "incorrectly".I'd rather not see this happen, it would be pretty annoying as marine to be slowed down. Parasite is punishment enough as it is.
If anything, the problem with skulks vs marines is that marines win by clumping up and shooting properly, which works in any circumstance, while skulks win largely by hoping the marines don't notice them until they get relatively close, or hoping they miss lots.
Skulk vs marine necessarily puts the skulk at the mercy of the marine for most of the engagement, at least in anything other than an ambush scenario (which is hardly practical all the time, certainly not when you're attacking).
A chunk of skulk combat effectiveness is based around what amounts to good luck, hoping the marine is a poor shot so you can get close, or hoping he doesn't notice the noise you're making when you try to get close to him from behind.
Now, while that seems to be working out mostly fine, as in, marines often are bad enough that you can kill them. It does make the skulk gameplay a little... unfulfilling. I am not succeeding as a skulk, marines are failing enough to allow me to not lose.
With marines it's always about what I can do to maximise the probability of a successful outcome to a situation. With skulks, well, being as their movement gimmick is not strong enough to hold its own in sustained combat, mostly it's about hoping the marines don't kill me.
All the other alien classes have something that lets them fight on the field. Lerks move really fast and create obscuring gas to mask their exit, as well as being generally move maneuverable than the skulk and having a ranged opener and more health. Fades have an excellent variety of combat movement options that allows them to get into, around, and out of combat very quickly and comprehensibly from their perspective. Onoses are huge and hit stuff, they do this very well. Also they can move quite fast.
Skulks are noticeably deficient in their ability to be played effectively. No doubt it's possible for a player to get good enough at them that they can get kills and consistently use the rather impractical walljumping to offset the general brick-like nature of the skulk movement. But the level of attention required compared to any other lifeform or marine weapon in the game is just... not comparable.
About the only thing that can be compared is the basic rifle, and even then that is still much easier to use, you get a massive margin for error in a magazine when it comes to fighting skulks, and you usually get time to empty at least one magazine before the skulk can even begin to attack you, to say nothing of the three solid hits he needs to get before you actually die, which can easily be time for you to spray bullets wildly around you and knock a decent chunk of his health without even trying.
Basically, skulks can't do much in combat because they're kinda slow and have no ranged attacks, marines can always do something in combat because they're relatively tough and have all the ranged attacks. This means skulk vs marine is always going to be 5 seconds of a skulk getting shot at, and then if it survives that, 5 seconds of flailing around where both parties try to hit each other in melee. Getting past that first five seconds is often neither practical nor enjoyable.
My experience is different to yours and my complaint relates to what happens when you have already closed the distance by ambush / wall jumps.
As marine when a skulk comes flying off the ceiling at me, I usually push A or D, jump once whilst tracking the skulk in a 180 degree arc past me. (As pretty much every marine I encountered pre free weekend did, some a damn lot better than I can too) Some skulks have guessed I will do this and will still be in bite range, others will go flying past and usually die because although they have seen where the marine went and turn to follow him, the skulk is too slow and can't keep up. It's this last bit that is the problem imo.
LOLOLOL I'm sure they were just all terrible, that must be it! Herplederp. How is marine bitted?
While I can appreciate the feeling of frustration the bottom line is that there's a lot of good skulk players out there that don't have this problem. Try to take some tips from players you see doing well with melee classes, get a feel for what works and what doesn't in skulk movement from a marine perspective, or maybe try getting a crosshair mod that includes a crosshair and hit indicator for melee weapons (this one helps me a lot).