A polite reminder: the Skulk vs. Marine hopping problem has gone nowhere
hozz
Join Date: 2012-11-20 Member: 172660Members
Join Date: 2012-11-20 Member: 172660Members
I think everyone, or at least every player who is not exclusively Marine, knows from experience or the countless forum complaints what this is about. No need to repeat it*.
This thread is for 3 purposes:
1. The issue with Skulks vs. Marine b̶̶u̶̶n̶̶n̶̶y̶hopping has not changed a bit. But there hasn't been much talk about it lately. So... again, here it is
2. Given the latest dev blog entry about balance, to preempt people from saying "But we have 50% win rates now, what are you complaining about!!?? Whiners!"
3. To get the devs comment on the issue.
There is no denying that quality of games has gone up A LOT since 240. No more stomps with clueless Marines running back and forth between Extractors constantly under attack until the cloaked Onos rapetrain comes running into their base. Exos are seen a lot, Marines regularly hold 3 bases, etc. Especially for new players (well, Marine players at least, and new players tend to go exclusively Marine) 240 was a godsend. NS2 is much closer to the advertised product and imagined game than before. Overall gameplay IS better now.
The problem is, this was, to the most part, bought with a fairly big Skulk nerf. And the biggest part of that nerf is the Marine bunnyhopping thing.
It wasn't really a nerf in the good sense (like giving Skulks less HP, Marine weapons doing more damage,...). It didn't make Skulks harder to play or more challenging in a good way. It just made Skulks feel unfair, reduced their usability hugely, and is just not fun to play.
Given how the game is centered around Marines vs. Skulks, given how you play the base class most of the time, given how much Marines gain with weapons and upgrades later in the game, this is a huge issue (in my opinion).
A Marine team can easily win with everyone just using the base class: a LMG Marine (throw in the occasional shotty if you like). Try doing that with Skulks only after 240 (have them all evolutions available if you like). You can't. This is not a higher skill ceiling or more challenging, this is the proverbial glass ceiling. At a certain point (Marine aim + jump key in this case), there's just nothing you can do.
This is not fun.
At least that's how I see it.
So I'd like some devs' comments on this.
Are you aware of the issue?
Do you see this as a problem or is it working closer to what you always intended in terms of Marine vs Skulk gameplay?
Can we expect a change or is this just the "new Skulk" and we should get used to it?
Is this something you are working on in a specific manner?
Is the improved b-word (balance) worth it? (in my opinion, the improved game quality is a HUGE benefit, don't get me wrong)
Should players just save the 10 res and "go Lerk"/use higher lifeforms?
What are people supposed to do?
This is not to pressure you. If you need time, say so. But SOME kind of dev clarification would be really helpful. Because this is frustrating.
*PS: please everyone, do NOT comment in this thread if you don't know what it is about. "Learn to ambush", "use the walls", "teamwork" etc. shows you do NOT understand what this is about. The problem starts when you, as a Skulk, are standing right next to a Marine, possibly undetected and very often not alone...
Thanks.
This thread is for 3 purposes:
1. The issue with Skulks vs. Marine b̶̶u̶̶n̶̶n̶̶y̶hopping has not changed a bit. But there hasn't been much talk about it lately. So... again, here it is
2. Given the latest dev blog entry about balance, to preempt people from saying "But we have 50% win rates now, what are you complaining about!!?? Whiners!"
3. To get the devs comment on the issue.
There is no denying that quality of games has gone up A LOT since 240. No more stomps with clueless Marines running back and forth between Extractors constantly under attack until the cloaked Onos rapetrain comes running into their base. Exos are seen a lot, Marines regularly hold 3 bases, etc. Especially for new players (well, Marine players at least, and new players tend to go exclusively Marine) 240 was a godsend. NS2 is much closer to the advertised product and imagined game than before. Overall gameplay IS better now.
The problem is, this was, to the most part, bought with a fairly big Skulk nerf. And the biggest part of that nerf is the Marine bunnyhopping thing.
It wasn't really a nerf in the good sense (like giving Skulks less HP, Marine weapons doing more damage,...). It didn't make Skulks harder to play or more challenging in a good way. It just made Skulks feel unfair, reduced their usability hugely, and is just not fun to play.
Given how the game is centered around Marines vs. Skulks, given how you play the base class most of the time, given how much Marines gain with weapons and upgrades later in the game, this is a huge issue (in my opinion).
A Marine team can easily win with everyone just using the base class: a LMG Marine (throw in the occasional shotty if you like). Try doing that with Skulks only after 240 (have them all evolutions available if you like). You can't. This is not a higher skill ceiling or more challenging, this is the proverbial glass ceiling. At a certain point (Marine aim + jump key in this case), there's just nothing you can do.
This is not fun.
At least that's how I see it.
So I'd like some devs' comments on this.
Are you aware of the issue?
Do you see this as a problem or is it working closer to what you always intended in terms of Marine vs Skulk gameplay?
Can we expect a change or is this just the "new Skulk" and we should get used to it?
Is this something you are working on in a specific manner?
Is the improved b-word (balance) worth it? (in my opinion, the improved game quality is a HUGE benefit, don't get me wrong)
Should players just save the 10 res and "go Lerk"/use higher lifeforms?
What are people supposed to do?
This is not to pressure you. If you need time, say so. But SOME kind of dev clarification would be really helpful. Because this is frustrating.
*PS: please everyone, do NOT comment in this thread if you don't know what it is about. "Learn to ambush", "use the walls", "teamwork" etc. shows you do NOT understand what this is about. The problem starts when you, as a Skulk, are standing right next to a Marine, possibly undetected and very often not alone...
Thanks.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
You want something done to tip the favor in skulks. All you've mentioned is what it's like to skulk and how unenjoyable it is. What about playing marine. I'd take this more seriously if you at least mentioned how you feel playing a marine. That if you are able to exploit bunny hopping that its just so easy dodging skulks. Then I'd see you are at least trying to be objective
Marines have less momentum when drifting in the air, allowing them to be more agile. Or, it certainly feels like this. Skulks however, are the lighter body, and should be the ones with less momentum, especially considering the now almost equal run speeds between the two.
The main complaint is that it's cheap. It's not a balance that was found through common sense, the balance was 'cheated' in place and the result is that skulk is just not fun.
To me the problem occurs just after a wall jump, you land at the marines feet, get one bite in, then he strafe jumps away at a rate a skulk simply can't keep up with. If you predict which direction the marine is going you have a chance, but if you guess wrong you are dead, you simply can't change direction on the ground fast enough anymore.
This makes you much easier to hit with the AR, plus makes getting extra bites in after you close the distance more difficult.
In all, this was and still is a bad way to have achieved balance imo. A slight restructure to alien economy would have been a more satisfying method to have altered the overall win / loss ratio.
I agree with much of the OP regarding the alien POV and I'll tell you how I feel as playing marine. Early game skulks are really easy to kill most of the time. Even if they get the jump on me when I'm marine I'm often able to get out of their way enough to kill them. Late game when I have weapons 3 (non upgraded) skulks are actually harder to shoot due to low fps compared to early game. The animations or hit reg or whatever it was that was fixed recently seem to help marines every bit as much or more as the reduced skulk values. I had connection problems so I missed the gorgeous patch and can't comment on it.
That said, it's still entirely possible to do good as a skulk but it can be much more frustrating than before.
Pretty much look at what happened to the skulk for the sake of balance since launch. I am neither on aliens or marines side. I always keep saying that flat out nerfing alien classes or marines can sometimes make the game less enjoyable when it comes to movement.
So basically because the skulk got hit in terms of movement, now the solution is to hit the marines in terms of movement? So if marines also complain is the solution to nerf skulk movement some more? I always wanted balance to go the way of the economy as seen in:
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/127784/its-time-we-start-talking-about-the-real-culprit-behind-the-horrendeous-balance/p1
However it seems the route of just nerfing classes has been taken with some nerfs for marines in queue.
I too preferred previous game play. It's pretty obvious people enjoy marines more because I always see several people waiting for a spot. At least in previous patches people still went aliens because it was less frustrating and marines stackers got their fun as well even though the fight was tougher. Now everyone just goes on marine because aliens (skulks in particular) are just punching bags in higher player servers.
I enjoyed marines because it was always a challenge to win, it actually took great team work most of the time, now it's too easy tbh, a 50% win ratio is NOT what I want for this game. I want aliens to have an easier time and marines have to fight for the chance to win.
Good marines can pub stomp like no tomorrow now and good skulks can sometimes keep their team in the game.
What's the solution? I have no idea.
Wonder if the people who started playing right after the skulk nerf just view it as a fact of life and play with babblers?
It depends. If the skulk decides to charge the marine, I'd say the marine will probably win. But the thing is, the skulk doesn't have to charge the marine. As an alien you HAVE to learn to pick and choose your fights. Most of the time marines are not the ones initiating fights. It's the aliens who decide when to fight and when to run. Marines just stand their ground. If you are a marine and get into trouble, you're pretty locked in the fight until the alien dies or runs away. As an alien, you can run away mid fight if you feel too many guns being pointed at you and have much more success than a marine at running away.
Not only that, but lerks are insanely good against rifle marines. It's nearly impossible for a solo rifle marine to kill a good lerk who spikes/ambushes. I think while it is useful to consider balance only on base unit (no upgrade marine vs no upgrade skulk) this isn't really feasible as the game progresses. What do you compare the lerk to? shotguns? what about fades? armor and shotguns?
This is pretty much impossible in any rts-"balance" ebs and flows in any game- for instance if marines have a lot of early resources and get early upgrades , they can get a major advantage if their upgrade drops before the aliens have access to their fades and will have a window of opportunity where they can go on the offensive throughout the map. Then if the aliens survive, and the fades come out, the arms race can turn around.
Frankly, I don't have a problem with it in NS2. One of the things that made hopping marines a problem in NS1 was that a bite was either a hit or a miss. So you can imagine how crucial a missed bite could be. With bite cones in NS2 it really negates that issue for the most part. Skill can overcome a hopping marine.
While I think it looks silly, I think marine 'hopping' is fine.
So now put yourself in their shoes... what else would you change to compensate such that reverting to the pre-Gorgeous skulk movement code doesn't also revert balance to pre-240? Because that's a nightmare. I suspect the answer to this question is not the least bit trivial, and requires more thought than "gee, the skulk players don't enjoy being skulk as much, let's just give them what they want." I suspect many of the devs play the game regularly as both sides, and as such there must be some awareness. Whether they feel the same way, who knows.
If the Marine isn't using some kind of script to 180>Sprint>Jump>180 then I'm completely fine with it
Being able to dodge is an important part of marine play
It was even more important in the first game because I believe Focus would allow you a 1 hit kill early game
Yeah... um, that sounds like a good idea for a mod.
I cut my teeth as Marine in 238 and 239, and yes there was a perverse pleasure in beating the odds, but that would be a major step backwards.
Dodging a Skulk like a bull with strafe jumps is part of the melee fight. It needs skill to perform it the right way and it is easily counter-able by a good skulk. It's not that you can't kill good marines as skulk. It is difficult. But that's how it should be when playing against skilled opponents.
Summary: In my opinion the skulk vs marine gameplay is perfectly fine right now.
At least before if you could move well as a skulk you would at least manage to stay in range to have the possibility of chaining three bites together. Let's not forget that with good aim a marine could still gun you down when you were right in their face faster than you can land those 3 bites.
Bullshit. The issue is that each correctly executed strafe jump gives the marine a guaranteed window in which the skulk is physically out of range to land a bite, even with perfect skulk movement.
It blows my mind that anyone who has played skulk for any length of time can fail to acknowledge this issue.
As a side note, the bite detection is broken. During those high speed marine evades, many times I have his body almost perfectly centered in my screen and my bite only does 25 dmg.. I realize how this feature works so don't explain it to me - I know where the limits are to get 75, 50, or 25 dmg, and the bites should definitely be scoring a 75 hit. MAYBE some should get a 50, but no chance on the 25 .. I attribute it to laggy hitboxes but I'm not sure what the problem is. But it gives dancing marines yet another unfair advantage over base skulks.
100% agree with this too. I've occasionally seen marines live up to 10 seconds jumping around wildly with myself and 4 other skulks on them trying to get bites in, and I know I've put what felt like it should have been 10 bites on them alone.
Skulks/Aliens require a lot of patience and reserve, pick your fights wisely, always avoid 1on1 fights unless you know you can win. That is the price you pay for maneuverability. Marines 1on1 can stand their ground slightly easier because they lack mobility. Aliens can gang 1 guy then be on the other side of the map shortly after, Marines can't.
Hopping is annoying but it's not why you keep dying as Skulk. You picked a bad fight and bunny hopping was the icing on the cake for the Marine. I understand your frustration as i get frustrated too but you have to remind yourself you probably picked a bad fight. This is coming from someone who has not played any of the previous builds, just my experience.
You won't win if they can jump and aim. The problem isn't at all related to getting the drop on them. You'll get the first bite, they will jump, turn and gun you down before you can close the gap they just created.
That's ridiculous, 1v1 shouldn't ever be hopeless. You don't always have backup. Skulk is the melee character and should by all rights have the advantage at close range. Just FYI, in the previous build a marine could still kill you with good aim at close range before you could get 3 bites off. They just didn't have the advantage of an instant uncloseable gap creating jump, because with good movement skills you could keep up with them.
This is not really a bug. I would bet, you look up while biting the marine in those cases. Now, if nothing has changed, the bite cone is a pyramid with its peak in the center of the skulk-model. As you mentioned, you already know, around this (75damage) pyramid is another pyramid (50damage) with a bigger bottom and around this one is a pyramid (25damage) with an even bigger bottom.
Now imagine yourself as little skulk looking up to the crutch of the marine. (Your hit-cone is now oriented in the same way!) If you are now slightly to far away, the 75d-pyramid will not touch the marine model, but maybe the edges of one of the greater pyramids will. Those getting lower damage while looking exactly at the marine model.
tl;dr: Looking up will shorten your horizontal bite-range. If you want to look up to see the marine better, you need to get closer to register a hit with the 75d cone.
What this game needs more of is skill based movement and generally higher skill ceilings, not movements that guarantee an advantage and require no skill.
Marine acceleration is 100, skulk is 64. There may be other parameters to take into account, but a skulk shouldnt be slower off the mark than a marine imo.