Weapons 1 or Armour 1?
Angry Hillbilly 2
Join Date: 2012-03-31 Member: 149741Members
Join Date: 2012-03-31 Member: 149741Members
This is certainly an age old debate that I think still rages on to this day. So what are peoples feelings in current builds about this as marries? Do you go weapons 1 take skulks down faster especially helping those who might not be as good shots or armour 1 and make marries more durable?
Also what order do you tend to go in after choosing weapons/Armour 1? Do u go for weapons/Armour 2 then 3 or bounce between them and how much of a difference how u found it makes?
I personally go for weapons 1 making groups of marries far more effective but ive heard counter arguments saying groups of marries with higher armour have much longer durability in long pushes forward as they're bound to take damage when pushing.
What do u guys think?
Also what order do you tend to go in after choosing weapons/Armour 1? Do u go for weapons/Armour 2 then 3 or bounce between them and how much of a difference how u found it makes?
I personally go for weapons 1 making groups of marries far more effective but ive heard counter arguments saying groups of marries with higher armour have much longer durability in long pushes forward as they're bound to take damage when pushing.
What do u guys think?
Comments
It takes 2-3 bullets less to kill a skulk with W1 compared to W0. A1 gives you an extra 5+ bullets before you die.
Simple maths, really.
I feel the increase in survivability greatly exceeds the benefits of +10% dmg.
This stands especially true if you want to research shotguns very early; it's quite irritating to lose those 20 res if you only have 30 armour.
Also, if aliens go shade first, they are very likely going to get the first strike: A1 is mandatory in those situations IMHO.
W0 do 10 dmg per bullet. So it needs 9 bullets to kill a skulk (maybe 10 if that skulk regen 1 hp in that short duration)
W1 do 11 dmg per bullet. So it needs...well, still 9 bullets to kill a skulk
So armor 1 is the way better upgrade. I am always saying that if u are surviving longer u are able to do more dmg.
W0 = 10 bullets
W1 = 9 bullets
Skulk with Cara = 130hp
W0 = 14 bullets
W1 = 12 bullets
vs Cara 1st you can argue that W1 is more effective, but the reason you see basically every marine team in a scrim/comp game go A1 1st is because they are getting parasited first, and the skulks generally land 75dmg bites consistently.
So: Did they get Cara first and are they parasiting?
Also, everyone knows people overshoot by about 10 bullets anyway so...
Shotguns with w2 are brutal, and mid game survivability against lerks and fades is massively improved (can get a1 with w2 and shotguns before fades quite comfortably).
So I wouldn't dismiss w1 first so easily. It has a place!
Incidentally, I've seen a few archaea matches and they usually rush straight to w2 inside 3:30 or so.
Bad players can't benefit from armour because they can't shoot at skulks in melee range very effectively, meaning that the extra time spent being alive is useless.
Good players benefit more from offensive upgrades than defensive upgrades, because offensive actions are better than defensive ones in NS2.
Armour is only good for keeping prototype tech alive for longer.
Therefore, if I don't plan on using jetpacks or exos to win, I usually don't even get armour until after level 3 weapons. Maybe I'll get level 1 just to appease the people who think they MUST have armour.
Any lack of early weapons upgrades is more than compensated by the existence of the shotgun.
You realize a fade is going to completely crush your team without armor upgrades
If our team is already failing and we only have level 1 guns by the time the fade comes out, then yes, he will. However, typically you will have had level 2 guns for some time by the time you see the first fade, and hopefully level 3 will go up shortly thereafter, which means any fade is instantly killed by a level 3 shotgun.
Its a little different where I play. Typically if you have an internet connection which allows you to game, you are a gamer. My local NS2 community consists of 0 casuals. They are all serious gamers, and thus the level of aim is much much higher than you would typically find in a random public cross section. This makes level 3 guns OP as hell.
Armour upgrades are the brute force of brute force strategies. It doesn't matter how many fades, lerks, or Onos they have, you trust in the ability of your armour upgrades to prevent them from taking out your attack. Weapon upgrades are a less brute force approach (but still brute force), which tries to kill all higher lifeforms before the main attack ever occurs, and then push when only skulks and gorges remain.
what?
2 easy swipes (0.65 sec) from a fade and you're dead.
2 PERFECT shots (0.9 sec) from w3 shotgun and fade is dead.
a1 makes it 3 swipes, you live 100% longer, which is objectively better than the mere 30% more damage from w3. it comes down to critical breakpoints, unless you're an aimbot you're unlikely to ever reach a breakpoint with a weapon upgrade.
You cant let a such a great advantage to the ennemy.
Be 2 shot by a fade, if the fade isnt terrybad/stupid, he will go on killing spree and wipe out the entire team (with his team).... I prefer weapon upgrade but you need armor 1.
And armor 1 is great against good skullk. He needs additionnal bite
Are you stating that a marine with more armour is less likely to die in a fade attack than a marine with more weapon upgrades? I can accept that.
The problem is that the converse, which you would think would naturally follow, isn't true. Namely, the idea that a fade attacking a marine with more weapon upgrades is less likely to die than one attacking a marine with more armour upgrades. This is because the fade can retreat at any time. As long as he isn't a bad fade, and bases his retreat on his health rather than on the health of his enemies, he will survive for longer.
Now, taking the fact that a marine with weapon upgrades is more likely to die than a marine with armour upgrades, and a fade attacking a marine with weapon upgrades is more likely to die than one attacking a marine with armour upgrades, combine that with the cost of a marine compared to the cost of the fade, and you might understand why I make the choice I make.
TL;DR Marines are free, fades are not.
With glancing bites, this kind of thing has become a little more complicated.
The short answer is no, though.
Marines have 160 hp (100 and 30 armor)
2 perfect bite=150+para=160 damages
Marines a1 have 200 hp so he needs 3 bite.
And with the current state of parasite, its safe to say that in 90% of cases its 3 full bites either way.
But full bites aren't the only bites.
You are assuming the fade is already in swipe range. In an optimal scenario the marine will get a 100% accurate shot off at max shotgun range. This will skew your numbers a bit. Plus adding "Easy swipes" and "PERFECT shots" is a little too bias. I have 10 times more success with the shotgun than i do with fading. In your scenario the fade is in melee range which means those PERFECT shotgun shots are actually almost impossible NOT to get.
You also assume 1 on 1. Marines are designed around squad play. Add 1 marine in that scenario and the numbers will always favor them.
Strofix, which servers do you play on? Seems like there is alot of hidden talent sitting around unnoticed when NA or EU teams seem to always be looking for players.
That is to say, if you have 2 or 3 marines who are spaced far apart from one another, you "simulate" the affect of armour because you are fighting melee enemies. The distance they must travel adds to the time it takes to kill someone, and thus has a similar affect to armour. Of course, adding armour to this equation will increase survivability even further.
However, positioning cannot simulate the affect of increased weapons damage. Nothing can. That is why good players excel with weapons upgrades, because armour can be simulated.
This is compounded by mechanics like medpack drops and nano shield. Why bypass something irreplaceable like increased weapon damage, when you can already get increased survivability on demand, when you need it most?
sorry, still favour a1 in a group situation.
fade requiring 3 hits to get a kill versus 2.... it's night and day no matter how you rephrase it. 2 hits is practically an instant kill, and any marine who can kill a good fade with a0 is a god.
Armor 0 --> Armor 1 is worthless until fades come out.
Weapons 1 / Weapons 2 is absolutely amazing for killing skulks
Have armor 1 by the time fades are out. Until then, weapons upgrades.
So we usually go Weapons 1 -> Weapons 2 -> Armor 1, which lines up to usually be a minute or two before fades (but if I had gotten weapons 3 we wouldn't have it up by then)