On some level, there's part of me that disagrees with the policy of deactivating all the keys. And the reason for it is directly in the press release:
The owner of the stolen credit card ultimately disputed the charge and we lost the sale. In total, we lose ~$45 per transaction of this kind, due to the charge-back fee (~$22 fee + $25 game price). Meanwhile, the unauthorized key reseller kept the money from the player who ultimately received the bad key.
Deactivating the keys only punishes the innocent people who bought the keys. It doesn't restore the lost money to UWE, and it doesn't punish the person who sold them. The proper response here was to eat the loss and hope the people who obtained the game in this way lead to more sales via positive word of mouth.
heres a scenario
someone stole your wifes/husbands wedding ring, and i bought the stolen wedding ring for my wife to get married, and you find out i have it, what would you do?
let me keep it cause im innocent? i didnt steal it, i thought i bought it legitimate..
or
take it back and tell me its yours, and i should deal with the theif?
i think you would take it back because its yours, i know its two completely different things, but you know what i mean, purchasing anything stolen, even if your innocent does not make it yours, thats with everything you buy from software to goods.
Did you buy the ring from a guy in a parking lot? And not a real business? If so, you have no excuse. Your analogy is flawed.
It's unfortunate for those players who went outside of the official channels for buying the game to skirt paying full price, but that was the risk they took.
how is that flawed? when these innocent customers did the exact same thing example: buying it from a shady rusain site for something like 5-10 dollars a key
the whole concept of buying anything dirt cheap off of any site is flawed
if anything i would RATHER buy something physical from a shady guy at a mall then buy something digital from a shady site, both are stupid, which is what these people got what was eventually coming to them
If you buy something from a guy in a mall and it's stolen or fake, guess what? You're fucking SOL. Welcome to the real world.
On some level, there's part of me that disagrees with the policy of deactivating all the keys. And the reason for it is directly in the press release:
The owner of the stolen credit card ultimately disputed the charge and we lost the sale. In total, we lose ~$45 per transaction of this kind, due to the charge-back fee (~$22 fee + $25 game price). Meanwhile, the unauthorized key reseller kept the money from the player who ultimately received the bad key.
Deactivating the keys only punishes the innocent people who bought the keys. It doesn't restore the lost money to UWE, and it doesn't punish the person who sold them. The proper response here was to eat the loss and hope the people who obtained the game in this way lead to more sales via positive word of mouth.
heres a scenario
someone stole your wifes/husbands wedding ring, and i bought the stolen wedding ring for my wife to get married, and you find out i have it, what would you do?
let me keep it cause im innocent? i didnt steal it, i thought i bought it legitimate..
or
take it back and tell me its yours, and i should deal with the theif?
i think you would take it back because its yours, i know its two completely different things, but you know what i mean, purchasing anything stolen, even if your innocent does not make it yours, thats with everything you buy from software to goods.
Did you buy the ring from a guy in a parking lot? And not a real business? If so, you have no excuse. Your analogy is flawed.
It's unfortunate for those players who went outside of the official channels for buying the game to skirt paying full price, but that was the risk they took.
how is that flawed? when these innocent customers did the exact same thing example: buying it from a shady rusain site for something like 5-10 dollars a key
the whole concept of buying anything dirt cheap off of any site is flawed
if anything i would RATHER buy something physical from a shady guy at a mall then buy something digital from a shady site, both are stupid, which is what these people got what was eventually coming to them
If you buy something from a guy in a mall and it's stolen or fake, guess what? You're fucking SOL. Welcome to the real world.
the damage is done, time to move on, now i think you should consider a promo soon (a 24hours steam sale for example) for those who want to buy the game again
the damage is done, time to move on, now i think you should consider a promo soon (a 24hours steam sale for example) for those who want to buy the game again
They just had a promo a week ago. Stop trying to reward people's idiocy.
the damage is done, time to move on, now i think you should consider a promo soon (a 24hours steam sale for example) for those who want to buy the game again
They just had a promo a week ago. Stop trying to reward people's idiocy.
well i didnt know about that promo and if so they should consider a new sale ! one week ago no one was expecting to get their key blacklisted. I'm just giving my opinion respect that please...
I understand your position, im a Red Orchestra/ Tripwire / indie supporter fan and I would not want to see this happen to them, but stop with your attitude toward those who have a different opinion.
the damage is done, time to move on, now i think you should consider a promo soon (a 24hours steam sale for example) for those who want to buy the game again
They just had a promo a week ago. Stop trying to reward people's idiocy.
well i didnt know about that promo and if so they should consider a new sale ! one week ago no one was expecting to get their key blacklisted. I'm just giving my opinion respect that please...
I understand your position, im a Red Orchestra/ Tripwire / indie supporter fan and I would not want to see this happen to them, but stop with your attitude toward those who have a different opinion.
If you buy a key from a discount Slav site then you should expect it to be banned.
Damn. Can you dispute the 30 grand? It seems like bullshit that they can hit you with a per transaction fee like this and charge you that much money as a penalty for accepting a card you had no way to know was stolen. What happens if you take it to court or refuse to pay, do they stop authorizing transactions through your website?
Damn. Can you dispute the 30 grand? It seems like bullshit that they can hit you with a per transaction fee like this and charge you that much money as a penalty for accepting a card you had no way to know was stolen. What happens if you take it to court or refuse to pay, do they stop authorizing transactions through your website?
Those are the terms they agree to when they accept Visa, etc., as payment. It sucks, but unfortunately that's just how it goes.
Damn. Can you dispute the 30 grand? It seems like bullshit that they can hit you with a per transaction fee like this and charge you that much money as a penalty for accepting a card you had no way to know was stolen. What happens if you take it to court or refuse to pay, do they stop authorizing transactions through your website?
Those are the terms they agree to when they accept Visa, etc., as payment. It sucks, but unfortunately that's just how it goes.
Man. Yeah I guess there's probably no way out of that shit. UWE, you guys gotta lock out your POS so that it doesn't authorize any one card for more than like 10 purchases without getting a person involved. Just put a nice apologetic "here's a customer service number call us so we can help you spend more of your money!" message on it and have someone who is ready to call card companies and get in direct touch with the owner of the card for large purchases. I know CCP of EVE Online does stuff like this, they won't let you buy tons and tons of PLEX without talking to someone in their company probably for exactly this reason. Expensive, shitty lesson to learn but it should be fixable.
I wonder how long it took them to make 1300 some odd separate purchases with the same card...
Man. Yeah I guess there's probably no way out of that shit. UWE, you guys gotta lock out your POS so that it doesn't authorize any one card for more than like 10 purchases without getting a person involved. Just put a nice apologetic "here's a customer service number call us so we can help you spend more of your money!" message on it and have someone who is ready to call card companies and get in direct touch with the owner of the card for large purchases. I know CCP of EVE Online does stuff like this, they won't let you buy tons and tons of PLEX without talking to someone in their company probably for exactly this reason. Expensive, shitty lesson to learn but it should be fixable.
I wonder how long it took them to make 1300 some odd separate purchases with the same card...
Its probably different people using multiple stolen credit cards. UWE likely doesn't have any more details then that they we're billed for 1,341 chargebacks, so it could have been from one to 1,341 different CC for all they know.
As others have said I would be more than happy to buy an extra copy of the game.
One thing I'd like to ask. Is there any difference in terms of money recieved by Unkown Worlds depending on if a purchase is made on Steam or through the Humble Store as naturally I would like the most possible to end up in your hands.
It's a bad situation, but the action that UWE took in deactivating the keys was wholly unnecessary. As explained above, most of the people who end up with deactivated keys will just leave the game. And they'll be out money because most people aren't going to go through the hassle of a chargeback for what's a nominal charge. The extra step you guys took in deactivating keys falls squarely on the shoulders of otherwise innocent people and it's not really right. Take it as you will.
Afraid this is kinda what I think too.
I can't imagine it making you much money, only producing a bunch of people who are going to tell everyone they know how much UWE is a terrible company who screw people out of games
The game seller screwed them not UWE.
Yes, but the game seller isn't the one taking their games off them, it's about perception,.
Deactivating those Keys will have no positive effects in the short run. It will only take the game away from people who actually paid for it. Meanwhile UWE won’t gain anything from it. Very true.
But not deactivating those key wouldn’t be right either. UWE sells those keys. You get a key and you give them money in return. It’s that simple and it’s called making business. If the money gets taken away from UWE, they don’t really have a choice. They have to take back the product as well. And again this is just the way the world works. It’s a principle as old as mankind itself. Not taking back the product would simply send out the message that it's okay to screw with them and that there won’t be any consequences to expect.
And to be honest: If a store or and individual sells a product at a significantly lower price than everyone else, that should make you suspicious. Something that seems too good to be true usually just is. If you bought your game at such a shady business and your key got deactivated you should write of your money of and just chalk that up to experience.
I think there is an important lesson to be learned here: We can’t always go for the cheapest price we can find. We have to keep in mind that our behavior can really hurt people even if we don’t intend to.
There will always be bad people (in this case those running the shady third party stores) committing fraud. And fraud almost always works because people don’t think things through and/or are too greedy. We as consumer have an obligation to use our brains and we also have to be willing to pay fair prices for the products we buy. Otherwise people will get screwed over.
Even if we buy very cheap coffee we can expect that somewhere down the production chain people will get minimum wages. Maybe children have to work on the fields.
They are getting screwed over. UWE got screwed over. The only difference is that those peasant farmers/children can’t really do much to improve their situation. UWE on the other hand was able to take back those keys. They hopefully made us think. Because in the end we consumers are responsible for how the systems works and who gets our money. We can very well influence if people are screwed over or not.
well since uwe deactivated the keys those who bought it from the fake web sides can charge-back their money from these fake web sites and buy it on real sides.
So they shouldn't really have a problem. Only uwe has a problem because it lost 30k charge-back fee.
I bought the game at a re-seller from which I've bought more then 15 other games from , i will not stop buying games from their site just because they suddenly gave me a banned key.
My friends bought it there as-well and guess what , they didn't get their key banned.
We all bought the game for €15 which isn't that low compared to the steam sales , and since we just missed the sales it seamed like a reasonable amount of money.
I cant get a refund since i paid through moneybooker (ideal) which basically is a direct transfer from my bank account.
I am however not buying the game since one of my friends has 2 gift-able copies left , if he didn't i would probably bought it though.
I'm not trying to defend the site from which i bought it but its pretty shity for people who dont have any backups.
Do you really think they are able to get their money back from a purchase that has been made quite some time ago , i think not seeing as most banks got a time limit on it.
Do you really think they are going to get the game again after they have been scammed by 2 different instances in this case.
And yes , i said 2 different instances.
If my account bank card gets skimmed and gets completely drained by someone i get all of the money back by default since its automatically insured when i get a bank account , and i cannot simply grasp the fact that a company like Unknown Worlds wouldn't have a similar insurance to cover things like this.
I do however agree with everyone saying that getting the game for €5 euros should have known from the start it wasn't legitimate.
You are just screwing yourself. If you give sensitive information like cc-numbers or your bank account to shady sites you are bound to find yourself in trouble sooner or later. Do you really have to take that risk to save 7€?
Vicros it sounds like you got really unlucky, and yes some resellers are actually legitimate so this is an unfortunate case of the bad ones dragging everyones name through the dirt.
The real issue here seems more to do with the whole "charge-back" thing and the rediculous fees that credit card companies are allowed to charge which is nothing short of legal theft.
If someone who had their game disabled, thinking of those like Vicros rather than those who paid pennies for their copy, explained their situation to either Steam or Unknown Worlds I'm sure something could have been worked out that was better than charge-back.
Either giving a free copy (which would have resulted in a halving of the cost to UW compared to the charge-back scam), or offering a copy at a discount which would have been even less damaging.
Of course I don't know for sure if Steam or Unknown Worlds would have gone for something like that, or indeed if the people who had lost their copies would if it was offered, but in terms of what is best for supporting a great game and developer the naive kid in me who just wants the best for gaming would have hoped so.
If something is stolen from me and then sold in a store, it wouldn't be ok for me to just take it back from the person who bought it in the store.
I would have to report it to the police who'd investigate if the person buying it in the end acted in good faith or not. They would also investigate the store selling stolen stuff (and most likely it'd be against the store I'd have to direct my claims).
If I'd visit the end buyer and take the stolen stuff back, and simply tell him/her to solve it with the store selling it to them (which basically is what you have done here), I'd be committing a crime.
Comments
If you buy something from a guy in a mall and it's stolen or fake, guess what? You're fucking SOL. Welcome to the real world.
Exactly
They just had a promo a week ago. Stop trying to reward people's idiocy.
well i didnt know about that promo and if so they should consider a new sale ! one week ago no one was expecting to get their key blacklisted. I'm just giving my opinion respect that please...
I understand your position, im a Red Orchestra/ Tripwire / indie supporter fan and I would not want to see this happen to them, but stop with your attitude toward those who have a different opinion.
If you buy a key from a discount Slav site then you should expect it to be banned.
if people are aware of that yes they should but im not talking about that... I just mentioned promos.
Those are the terms they agree to when they accept Visa, etc., as payment. It sucks, but unfortunately that's just how it goes.
Man. Yeah I guess there's probably no way out of that shit. UWE, you guys gotta lock out your POS so that it doesn't authorize any one card for more than like 10 purchases without getting a person involved. Just put a nice apologetic "here's a customer service number call us so we can help you spend more of your money!" message on it and have someone who is ready to call card companies and get in direct touch with the owner of the card for large purchases. I know CCP of EVE Online does stuff like this, they won't let you buy tons and tons of PLEX without talking to someone in their company probably for exactly this reason. Expensive, shitty lesson to learn but it should be fixable.
I wonder how long it took them to make 1300 some odd separate purchases with the same card...
By choice.
The situation sucks for those involved.
On the bright side it looks like your fans (comments and forum peoples) are still some feistiest talkers around.
One thing I'd like to ask. Is there any difference in terms of money recieved by Unkown Worlds depending on if a purchase is made on Steam or through the Humble Store as naturally I would like the most possible to end up in your hands.
Can't pay the billz with fake money.
Im with uwe on this one.
Adjust your perception to reality.
But not deactivating those key wouldn’t be right either. UWE sells those keys. You get a key and you give them money in return. It’s that simple and it’s called making business. If the money gets taken away from UWE, they don’t really have a choice. They have to take back the product as well. And again this is just the way the world works. It’s a principle as old as mankind itself. Not taking back the product would simply send out the message that it's okay to screw with them and that there won’t be any consequences to expect.
And to be honest: If a store or and individual sells a product at a significantly lower price than everyone else, that should make you suspicious. Something that seems too good to be true usually just is. If you bought your game at such a shady business and your key got deactivated you should write of your money of and just chalk that up to experience.
I think there is an important lesson to be learned here: We can’t always go for the cheapest price we can find. We have to keep in mind that our behavior can really hurt people even if we don’t intend to.
There will always be bad people (in this case those running the shady third party stores) committing fraud. And fraud almost always works because people don’t think things through and/or are too greedy. We as consumer have an obligation to use our brains and we also have to be willing to pay fair prices for the products we buy. Otherwise people will get screwed over.
Even if we buy very cheap coffee we can expect that somewhere down the production chain people will get minimum wages. Maybe children have to work on the fields.
They are getting screwed over. UWE got screwed over. The only difference is that those peasant farmers/children can’t really do much to improve their situation. UWE on the other hand was able to take back those keys. They hopefully made us think. Because in the end we consumers are responsible for how the systems works and who gets our money. We can very well influence if people are screwed over or not.
So they shouldn't really have a problem. Only uwe has a problem because it lost 30k charge-back fee.
My friends bought it there as-well and guess what , they didn't get their key banned.
We all bought the game for €15 which isn't that low compared to the steam sales , and since we just missed the sales it seamed like a reasonable amount of money.
I cant get a refund since i paid through moneybooker (ideal) which basically is a direct transfer from my bank account.
I am however not buying the game since one of my friends has 2 gift-able copies left , if he didn't i would probably bought it though.
I'm not trying to defend the site from which i bought it but its pretty shity for people who dont have any backups.
Do you really think they are able to get their money back from a purchase that has been made quite some time ago , i think not seeing as most banks got a time limit on it.
Do you really think they are going to get the game again after they have been scammed by 2 different instances in this case.
And yes , i said 2 different instances.
If my account bank card gets skimmed and gets completely drained by someone i get all of the money back by default since its automatically insured when i get a bank account , and i cannot simply grasp the fact that a company like Unknown Worlds wouldn't have a similar insurance to cover things like this.
I do however agree with everyone saying that getting the game for €5 euros should have known from the start it wasn't legitimate.
The real issue here seems more to do with the whole "charge-back" thing and the rediculous fees that credit card companies are allowed to charge which is nothing short of legal theft.
If someone who had their game disabled, thinking of those like Vicros rather than those who paid pennies for their copy, explained their situation to either Steam or Unknown Worlds I'm sure something could have been worked out that was better than charge-back.
Either giving a free copy (which would have resulted in a halving of the cost to UW compared to the charge-back scam), or offering a copy at a discount which would have been even less damaging.
Of course I don't know for sure if Steam or Unknown Worlds would have gone for something like that, or indeed if the people who had lost their copies would if it was offered, but in terms of what is best for supporting a great game and developer the naive kid in me who just wants the best for gaming would have hoped so.
I would have to report it to the police who'd investigate if the person buying it in the end acted in good faith or not. They would also investigate the store selling stolen stuff (and most likely it'd be against the store I'd have to direct my claims).
If I'd visit the end buyer and take the stolen stuff back, and simply tell him/her to solve it with the store selling it to them (which basically is what you have done here), I'd be committing a crime.