The problem with applying most theft laws to this is that UWE hasn't actually lost anything they can 'reclaim' as such.
This isn't like stealing diamonds, where UWE needs to reclaim them in order to continue to have their diamonds, because software doesn't work like that. UWE doesn't get anything back if they deactivate the copies, they don't get to put them back in the big secret room full of physical NS2 copies in the UWE office and swim around in them on friday afternoons.
In this case, UWE loses literally nothing by allowing people to keep the game if it was bought in good faith, because UWE still have their copy and can still sell it.
Yes it is important to tell people if they're buying it illegally, so as to stop illegal sales, but taking their copies off them would seem to be completely counterproductive to that. It seems unlikely that the people you do that to would want to support you when all you've done for them is take the thing they paid for off them, they'll probably just go and pirate a copy of it or have nothing to do with you in the future.
The logic and reasoning behind most theft legislation and the actions you take when you are the victim of theft simply do not make sense when applied to software, because the only thing you 'own' is the intellectual property, you don't own any actual things and you're selling information, which by its very nature can be copied indefinitely and near-instantly. You aren't trying to keep control of a finite resource, you're trying to control the propagation of information you created, which is a very different thing.
unless i'm mistaken, business doesn't operate like that.
they don't take their physical money and store it away in a closet to swim around in. they calculate sales to generate a realistic projection, falsified sales will indeed botch that projection by $30000.
your post is dangerously close to the 'downloading pirated games for free is not stealing' argument.
It's more akin to 'trying to punish people for pirating games is a kind of futile effort.' Which it is. It's why DRM doesn't really work and why software piracy is basically impossible to tackle without going all totalitarian rule on people and monitoring every single thing they do on the internet, and instituting outlandish multi-thousand dollar fines for downloading an MP3 or something.
The punitive approach to it really doesn't work, and we've seen it really not working for years now, I can't help but put far more store in the fostering approach as a result of that. Instead of trying to dole out the pain on everyone you can, perhaps giving people positive reasons to support you and buy from you would work better?
Such as saying 'hey, you bought this key from an illegal seller and we've lost a fair bit of money on it, now, we know you probably didn't realize this or didn't intend to cause that sort of loss, so we aren't going to take the game off you, because you've paid someone for it you thought was legit.
But, if you could, please contact the seller/your card company/whatever and ask them to look into this, if you can get your money recouped, please contact us and we'll sell you a proper version for the price you originally paid [or just a flat discount, or full price if you have to], and we'll throw in a special model for when you play the game with an arm emblem signifying this, so everyone ingame knows what an honest person you are.'
Something like that might be responded to better than 'hey you bought this from guys we don't want selling it, we're taking it off you, buy a new copy'.
Leastways I'd think so?
actually it's more like 'hey you bought this from guys who bought it with stolen credit card information'.
it's a valuable lesson - if it's below market price then ask yourself WHY. if you take a gamble then prepare to face the consequences if the product is knock-off, illegitimate crap etc.
The logic and reasoning behind most theft legislation and the actions you take when you are the victim of theft simply do not make sense when applied to software, because the only thing you 'own' is the intellectual property, you don't own any actual things and you're selling information, which by its very nature can be copied indefinitely and near-instantly. You aren't trying to keep control of a finite resource, you're trying to control the propagation of information you created, which is a very different thing.
I get your point but why should the fishy key seller make profit while UWE is charged with a fee? We don't talk about piracy here, we talk about profit on one side (key seller) and loss on the other. It's just the same with Kim Dot Com: he makes money while the producing economy makes losses. And he doesn't even get his hands dirty. The dumb ones are always the people on the receiving ends which are UWE and the people with non working cd keys. Which doesn't mean that UWE should give them free copies. It only means: both sides have lost. It doesn't get better when one side takes all the losses. The only reasonable way would be to sue the key seller or middle man from both sides. What wouldn't work, because that's the internet.
In the long run, I think piracy is crippling the major gaming economy because the only real answer to piracy right now are microtransactions, paid DLC and F2P/Pay2Win games. The companys that produce information should get paid for it. We could argue about the pricing of these informations, but that basic rule just stands there: you make something, you should be able to get a reward.
BTW pirating a indie game like NS2 is straightout robbery in my books.
The key seller is still making a profit and UWE is still being charged with a fee, deactivating the copies just means that 1000+ people no longer have a game on top of that.
That's my point, deactivating the keys achieves no visible good that I can discern.
The problem with applying most theft laws to this is that UWE hasn't actually lost anything they can 'reclaim' as such.
This isn't like stealing diamonds, where UWE needs to reclaim them in order to continue to have their diamonds, because software doesn't work like that. UWE doesn't get anything back if they deactivate the copies, they don't get to put them back in the big secret room full of physical NS2 copies in the UWE office and swim around in them on friday afternoons.
In this case, UWE loses literally nothing by allowing people to keep the game if it was bought in good faith, because UWE still have their copy and can still sell it.
Yes it is important to tell people if they're buying it illegally, so as to stop illegal sales, but taking their copies off them would seem to be completely counterproductive to that. It seems unlikely that the people you do that to would want to support you when all you've done for them is take the thing they paid for off them, they'll probably just go and pirate a copy of it or have nothing to do with you in the future.
The logic and reasoning behind most theft legislation and the actions you take when you are the victim of theft simply do not make sense when applied to software, because the only thing you 'own' is the intellectual property, you don't own any actual things and you're selling information, which by its very nature can be copied indefinitely and near-instantly. You aren't trying to keep control of a finite resource, you're trying to control the propagation of information you created, which is a very different thing.
unless i'm mistaken, business doesn't operate like that.
they don't take their physical money and store it away in a closet to swim around in. they calculate sales to generate a realistic projection, falsified sales will indeed botch that projection by $30000.
your post is dangerously close to the 'downloading pirated games for free is not stealing' argument.
It's more akin to 'trying to punish people for pirating games is a kind of futile effort.' Which it is. It's why DRM doesn't really work and why software piracy is basically impossible to tackle without going all totalitarian rule on people and monitoring every single thing they do on the internet, and instituting outlandish multi-thousand dollar fines for downloading an MP3 or something.
The punitive approach to it really doesn't work, and we've seen it really not working for years now, I can't help but put far more store in the fostering approach as a result of that. Instead of trying to dole out the pain on everyone you can, perhaps giving people positive reasons to support you and buy from you would work better?
Such as saying 'hey, you bought this key from an illegal seller and we've lost a fair bit of money on it, now, we know you probably didn't realize this or didn't intend to cause that sort of loss, so we aren't going to take the game off you, because you've paid someone for it you thought was legit.
But, if you could, please contact the seller/your card company/whatever and ask them to look into this, if you can get your money recouped, please contact us and we'll sell you a proper version for the price you originally paid [or just a flat discount, or full price if you have to], and we'll throw in a special model for when you play the game with an arm emblem signifying this, so everyone ingame knows what an honest person you are.'
Something like that might be responded to better than 'hey you bought this from guys we don't want selling it, we're taking it off you, buy a new copy'.
Leastways I'd think so?
actually it's more like 'hey you bought this from guys who bought it with stolen credit card information'.
it's a valuable lesson - if it's below market price then ask yourself WHY. if you take a gamble then prepare to face the consequences if the product is knock-off, illegitimate crap etc.
Which can be learned by simply informing people, it doesn't require deactivating the keys and informing people afterwards why they don't have a game. That is destructive in itself because you're taking away something people enjoy and it is potentially further destructive down the line because it sours business with people who are interested in your product.
It serves no constructive end, it's punishment for punishment's sake, for petty vengeance, there is no sense in it.
The logic and reasoning behind most theft legislation and the actions you take when you are the victim of theft simply do not make sense when applied to software, because the only thing you 'own' is the intellectual property, you don't own any actual things and you're selling information, which by its very nature can be copied indefinitely and near-instantly. You aren't trying to keep control of a finite resource, you're trying to control the propagation of information you created, which is a very different thing.
I get your point but why should the fishy key seller make profit while UWE is charged with a fee? We don't talk about piracy here, we talk about profit on one side (key seller) and loss on the other. It's just the same with Kim Dot Com: he makes money while the producing economy makes losses. And he doesn't even get his hands dirty. The dumb ones are always the people on the receiving ends which are UWE and the people with non working cd keys. Which doesn't mean that UWE should give them free copies. It only means: both sides have lost. It doesn't get better when one side takes all the losses. The only reasonable way would be to sue the key seller or middle man from both sides. What wouldn't work, because that's the internet.
In the long run, I think piracy is crippling the major gaming economy because the only real answer to piracy right now are microtransactions, paid DLC and F2P/Pay2Win games. The companys that produce information should get paid for it. We could argue about the pricing of these informations, but that basic rule just stands there: you make something, you should be able to get a reward.
BTW pirating a indie game like NS2 is straightout robbery in my books.
The key seller is still making a profit and UWE is still being charged with a fee, deactivating the copies just means that 1000+ people no longer have a game on top of that.
That's my point, deactivating the keys achieves no visible good that I can discern.
It makes you have to buy the game from a legitimate source instead of a, quite literally, stolen copy.
The logic and reasoning behind most theft legislation and the actions you take when you are the victim of theft simply do not make sense when applied to software, because the only thing you 'own' is the intellectual property, you don't own any actual things and you're selling information, which by its very nature can be copied indefinitely and near-instantly. You aren't trying to keep control of a finite resource, you're trying to control the propagation of information you created, which is a very different thing.
I get your point but why should the fishy key seller make profit while UWE is charged with a fee? We don't talk about piracy here, we talk about profit on one side (key seller) and loss on the other. It's just the same with Kim Dot Com: he makes money while the producing economy makes losses. And he doesn't even get his hands dirty. The dumb ones are always the people on the receiving ends which are UWE and the people with non working cd keys. Which doesn't mean that UWE should give them free copies. It only means: both sides have lost. It doesn't get better when one side takes all the losses. The only reasonable way would be to sue the key seller or middle man from both sides. What wouldn't work, because that's the internet.
In the long run, I think piracy is crippling the major gaming economy because the only real answer to piracy right now are microtransactions, paid DLC and F2P/Pay2Win games. The companys that produce information should get paid for it. We could argue about the pricing of these informations, but that basic rule just stands there: you make something, you should be able to get a reward.
BTW pirating a indie game like NS2 is straightout robbery in my books.
The key seller is still making a profit and UWE is still being charged with a fee, deactivating the copies just means that 1000+ people no longer have a game on top of that.
That's my point, deactivating the keys achieves no visible good that I can discern.
It makes you have to buy the game from a legitimate source instead of a, quite literally, stolen copy.
No it doesn't, it just makes you stop playing it, and puts you in a position where you can either buy it again, off people who just took it off you when you paid for it (from your perspective) or you can simply say 'these people are dicks, I don't want to give them anything' which is entirely possible.
I don't think it stands a reasonable chance, handled like this, of getting many people at all to buy a legit copy.
Do you honestly believe every person who got stuck with a fraudulent key is going to issue a chargeback? The odds are high that well over half the people affected are simply going to be out whatever amount they paid for the game. Because most people aren't going to waste their time chasing down a chargeback for 10-20 dollars - they'll chalk it up to the game being bad and move on.
Wow, I know there are people who like to rip on the game and on UWE, but using this situation to make us out to be the bad guys here is frankly just disgusting.
It's a bad situation, but the action that UWE took in deactivating the keys was wholly unnecessary. As explained above, most of the people who end up with deactivated keys will just leave the game. And they'll be out money because most people aren't going to go through the hassle of a chargeback for what's a nominal charge. The extra step you guys took in deactivating keys falls squarely on the shoulders of otherwise innocent people and it's not really right. Take it as you will.
The logic and reasoning behind most theft legislation and the actions you take when you are the victim of theft simply do not make sense when applied to software, because the only thing you 'own' is the intellectual property, you don't own any actual things and you're selling information, which by its very nature can be copied indefinitely and near-instantly. You aren't trying to keep control of a finite resource, you're trying to control the propagation of information you created, which is a very different thing.
I get your point but why should the fishy key seller make profit while UWE is charged with a fee? We don't talk about piracy here, we talk about profit on one side (key seller) and loss on the other. It's just the same with Kim Dot Com: he makes money while the producing economy makes losses. And he doesn't even get his hands dirty. The dumb ones are always the people on the receiving ends which are UWE and the people with non working cd keys. Which doesn't mean that UWE should give them free copies. It only means: both sides have lost. It doesn't get better when one side takes all the losses. The only reasonable way would be to sue the key seller or middle man from both sides. What wouldn't work, because that's the internet.
In the long run, I think piracy is crippling the major gaming economy because the only real answer to piracy right now are microtransactions, paid DLC and F2P/Pay2Win games. The companys that produce information should get paid for it. We could argue about the pricing of these informations, but that basic rule just stands there: you make something, you should be able to get a reward.
BTW pirating a indie game like NS2 is straightout robbery in my books.
The key seller is still making a profit and UWE is still being charged with a fee, deactivating the copies just means that 1000+ people no longer have a game on top of that.
That's my point, deactivating the keys achieves no visible good that I can discern.
It makes you have to buy the game from a legitimate source instead of a, quite literally, stolen copy.
No it doesn't, it just makes you stop playing it, and puts you in a position where you can either buy it again, off people who just took it off you when you paid for it (from your perspective) or you can simply say 'these people are dicks, I don't want to give them anything' which is entirely possible.
I don't think it stands a reasonable chance, handled like this, of getting many people at all to buy a legit copy.
In the end it really doesn't matter. You are not a customer of UWE. You are a customer of whatever fucked up site from Eastern Europe you bought the key from. Take it up with them.
Which can be learned by simply informing people, it doesn't require deactivating the keys and informing people afterwards why they don't have a game. That is destructive in itself because you're taking away something people enjoy and it is potentially further destructive down the line because it sours business with people who are interested in your product.
It serves no constructive end, it's punishment for punishment's sake, for petty vengeance, there is no sense in it.
i'd be peeved if these guys were allowed to keep their stolen version. they're effectively laughing at everyone who spent extra to buy the game from legitimate sources.
the only thing that makes the 'extra' fee from legitimate sources fair for the customer is that those naive/sly people run the risk of getting their key deactivated.
as far as i'm concerned, UWE's response was a reward for everyone who purchased the game legitimately.
The final step of deactivating keys harms innocent people for no particular gain. Which has always been the main point I've been hammering in this thread.
(P.S. The idea of, "We had to deactivate the keys to deter future criminals!" is pretty silly. Terrible and shady operations like the one described in the OP are based around smash and grab. Expecting potential bans of their product is already baked into their business plan.)
Are you suggesting a one time amnesty, a special exception for people who buy through these sites on a going forward basis Or anyone that cancels their credit card purchase should get the game for free?
Setting aside the current circumstance for a sec... Canceled payment = deactivated key. Would be silly for a business to not do this. Right? I mean the word would get out if they stayed active.
Now as for victims of fraud - in theory UWE could work with those people, but this is a separate business decision from key deactivation - which has to happen. But honestly, I dont think UWE has the responsibility (or resources) to manage, track, vet, work with victims of this type of fraud. Victims work with their card company (if they choose) & can decide themselves if they want to by a legit copy.
The logic and reasoning behind most theft legislation and the actions you take when you are the victim of theft simply do not make sense when applied to software, because the only thing you 'own' is the intellectual property, you don't own any actual things and you're selling information, which by its very nature can be copied indefinitely and near-instantly. You aren't trying to keep control of a finite resource, you're trying to control the propagation of information you created, which is a very different thing.
I get your point but why should the fishy key seller make profit while UWE is charged with a fee? We don't talk about piracy here, we talk about profit on one side (key seller) and loss on the other. It's just the same with Kim Dot Com: he makes money while the producing economy makes losses. And he doesn't even get his hands dirty. The dumb ones are always the people on the receiving ends which are UWE and the people with non working cd keys. Which doesn't mean that UWE should give them free copies. It only means: both sides have lost. It doesn't get better when one side takes all the losses. The only reasonable way would be to sue the key seller or middle man from both sides. What wouldn't work, because that's the internet.
In the long run, I think piracy is crippling the major gaming economy because the only real answer to piracy right now are microtransactions, paid DLC and F2P/Pay2Win games. The companys that produce information should get paid for it. We could argue about the pricing of these informations, but that basic rule just stands there: you make something, you should be able to get a reward.
BTW pirating a indie game like NS2 is straightout robbery in my books.
The key seller is still making a profit and UWE is still being charged with a fee, deactivating the copies just means that 1000+ people no longer have a game on top of that.
That's my point, deactivating the keys achieves no visible good that I can discern.
It makes you have to buy the game from a legitimate source instead of a, quite literally, stolen copy.
No it doesn't, it just makes you stop playing it, and puts you in a position where you can either buy it again, off people who just took it off you when you paid for it (from your perspective) or you can simply say 'these people are dicks, I don't want to give them anything' which is entirely possible.
I don't think it stands a reasonable chance, handled like this, of getting many people at all to buy a legit copy.
In the end it really doesn't matter. You are not a customer of UWE. You are a customer of whatever fucked up site from Eastern Europe you bought the key from. Take it up with them.
That still doesn't answer what good it does.
As I said, approached differently, it could produce customers of UWE, because the people obviously want the product UWE is selling, so they are strong potential customers.
Making your potential customers perceive you as being a dick is possibly not the soundest business practice?
Again, as I said, with the view you're suggesting it's just 'we don't care about you, so we're going to take this off you, deal with it'.
As I said, approached differently, it could produce customers of UWE, because the people obviously want the product UWE is selling, so they are strong potential customers.
Making your potential customers perceive you as being a dick is possibly not the soundest business practice?
Again, as I said, with the view you're suggesting it's just 'we don't care about you, so we're going to take this off you, deal with it'.
Which, again, is just petty vengeance.
are you speaking with empathy?
i wonder because if you dropped the price by 99% you could find some strong potential customers.... but that's just unfair to the loyal and legit customers. what do you think that would do for the corporate image?
What good it does is reinforce the notion of a business transaction.
You pay money -> you receive goods or services. Let's just call NS2 a service since you seem so adamant that it's not a physical good.
When you cancel payment, that means you no longer receive goods or services, and if the services were already rendered then the person who received the services is legally on the hook for payment, or else they are guilty of breaching a contract. This is well-understood business practice.
Therefore, UWE is simply saying "I didn't receive payment. Pony up or your access to our service is henceforth denied."
What's so difficult about that to understand?
It's not UWE's fault that people tried to go through a middleman in order to get a cheaper price. The people who are affected by blacklisted keys should take it up with the middleman.
i'd be peeved if these guys were allowed to keep their stolen version. they're effectively laughing at everyone who spent extra to buy the game from legitimate sources.
As opposed to the thousands of people who got the game for free via UWE approved methods?
Obviously the cost of implementation of such a thing might be a reason against this, but I feel like giving people who were affected a pop-up that told them what happened, and then giving them the option of spending more to help UWE (ie: 8 dollar upgrade to deluxe or something) would have been far more beneficial for all parties involved.
All of you people slamming UWE for deactivating the keys, do you know what "setting a precedent" means? Say Joe Blow just bought his key from one of these sites and the chargeback hit UWE. Let's say UWE takes one of two routes:
1) Inform the key holder that his key was stolen, explain the details of why and how, and offer a one-time amnesty to allow him to keep playing NS2.
2) Say nothing and let Joe Blow keep playing NS2, informing the community this is a goodwill gesture.
Route 1: If Joe Blow is an upstanding gamer, he will buy a full copy of NS2 to keep playing, and find some way to recover the money he had spent on the fradulent copy. But chances are Joe Blow is an opportunistic person with few morals, especially when shielded by internet anonymity. He will play the 'free' copy of NS2 (not really 'free', but was not deactivated...) while laughing all the way to the bank, recommend the game to his buddies, and tell them where to buy this game. The same process repeats itself, and the only winners here are the discount key websites and the CC companies (I cannot believe that they charge $22 ONTOP of the $25 charge back). A precedent has been set - want to play NS2 but can't afford $12.50 because of your drug habits and your day job at McD's? Go to xxx.ru and you can buy the game for $5, less than the cost of a Big Mac!
Route 2: Joe Blow doesn't know what's going on, only that he is enjoying his discounted copy of NS2. When his buddies ask him where to buy it...
Also, imagine how UWE must feel at this point. They worked hard on this game, only to have their intellectual property stolen and redistributed, *AND* to be out $30k...a significant amount of change for an indie studio.
What good it does is reinforce the notion of a business transaction.
You pay money -> you receive goods or services. Let's just call NS2 a service since you seem so adamant that it's not a physical good.
When you cancel payment, that means you no longer receive goods or services, and if the services were already rendered then the person who received the services is legally on the hook for payment, or else they are guilty of breaching a contract. This is well-understood business practice.
Therefore, UWE is simply saying "I didn't receive payment. Pony up or your access to our service is henceforth denied."
What's so difficult about that to understand?
It's not UWE's fault that people tried to go through a middleman in order to get a cheaper price. The people who are affected by blacklisted keys should take it up with the middleman.
The problem is that the end buyer didn't cancel payment in the resale scenario, the end buyer bought a product from what they (in some cases) considered a legitimate source. But they are the ones ending up out of pocket.
The person who canceled (the person who had their card stolen) gets reimbursed, but the person who bought the product does not, they are simply put out of pocket by the action.
UWE on the other hand does not receive anything from cancelling the account, they remain out of pocket either way.
So the action only serves to put someone else out of pocket, it's not even shifting the burden, it's creating more burden, and the manner in which it's done further reduces the probability of the end buyer being willing to buy from UWE directly, and help make up their losses, even if they do get reimbursed from their card supplier or whatever.
The message is only effective if it gets through to its recipient, and the recipient in this case is not going to perceive it as a 'business transaction', because as far as they know, they paid for it, they should have it.
As I said, approached differently, it could produce customers of UWE, because the people obviously want the product UWE is selling, so they are strong potential customers.
Making your potential customers perceive you as being a dick is possibly not the soundest business practice?
Again, as I said, with the view you're suggesting it's just 'we don't care about you, so we're going to take this off you, deal with it'.
Which, again, is just petty vengeance.
are you speaking with empathy?
i wonder because if you dropped the price by 99% you could find some strong potential customers.... but that's just unfair to the loyal and legit customers. what do you think that would do for the corporate image?
That would be counterproductive because you would probably make less profit on it, though some companies do give their really old games away for free, and that is actually quite good for their image.
In this case however, what I'm suggesting could potentially increase sales by not pissing off potential customers. That is productive as well as considerate and good for image, it's an all around good thing.
The logic and reasoning behind most theft legislation and the actions you take when you are the victim of theft simply do not make sense when applied to software, because the only thing you 'own' is the intellectual property, you don't own any actual things and you're selling information, which by its very nature can be copied indefinitely and near-instantly. You aren't trying to keep control of a finite resource, you're trying to control the propagation of information you created, which is a very different thing.
I get your point but why should the fishy key seller make profit while UWE is charged with a fee? We don't talk about piracy here, we talk about profit on one side (key seller) and loss on the other. It's just the same with Kim Dot Com: he makes money while the producing economy makes losses. And he doesn't even get his hands dirty. The dumb ones are always the people on the receiving ends which are UWE and the people with non working cd keys. Which doesn't mean that UWE should give them free copies. It only means: both sides have lost. It doesn't get better when one side takes all the losses. The only reasonable way would be to sue the key seller or middle man from both sides. What wouldn't work, because that's the internet.
In the long run, I think piracy is crippling the major gaming economy because the only real answer to piracy right now are microtransactions, paid DLC and F2P/Pay2Win games. The companys that produce information should get paid for it. We could argue about the pricing of these informations, but that basic rule just stands there: you make something, you should be able to get a reward.
BTW pirating a indie game like NS2 is straightout robbery in my books.
The key seller is still making a profit and UWE is still being charged with a fee, deactivating the copies just means that 1000+ people no longer have a game on top of that.
That's my point, deactivating the keys achieves no visible good that I can discern.
It makes you have to buy the game from a legitimate source instead of a, quite literally, stolen copy.
No it doesn't, it just makes you stop playing it, and puts you in a position where you can either buy it again, off people who just took it off you when you paid for it (from your perspective) or you can simply say 'these people are dicks, I don't want to give them anything' which is entirely possible.
I don't think it stands a reasonable chance, handled like this, of getting many people at all to buy a legit copy.
In the end it really doesn't matter. You are not a customer of UWE. You are a customer of whatever fucked up site from Eastern Europe you bought the key from. Take it up with them.
That still doesn't answer what good it does.
As I said, approached differently, it could produce customers of UWE, because the people obviously want the product UWE is selling, so they are strong potential customers.
Making your potential customers perceive you as being a dick is possibly not the soundest business practice?
Again, as I said, with the view you're suggesting it's just 'we don't care about you, so we're going to take this off you, deal with it'.
Which, again, is just petty vengeance.
UWE really shouldn't care about you and if they don't then I don't blame them. Why the hell would anyone be nice to someone purchasing stolen merchandise? UWE is the one who got screwed here, not you. You took your chances with websites that are KNOWN SCAMS and now you are pissed you got screwed. UWE didn't screw you kid, some Slav did. Quit playing the victim and grow up. How much did you even pay for your key? I hope it was less than $10.
i'd be peeved if these guys were allowed to keep their stolen version. they're effectively laughing at everyone who spent extra to buy the game from legitimate sources.
As opposed to the thousands of people who got the game for free via UWE approved methods?
Obviously the cost of implementation of such a thing might be a reason against this, but I feel like giving people who were affected a pop-up that told them what happened, and then giving them the option of spending more to help UWE (ie: 8 dollar upgrade to deluxe or something) would have been far more beneficial for all parties involved.
it's almost laughable that you can't see a difference between;
a) people who want to rip-off UWE by going to dodgy seller and buying super cheap, with or without the prudence to expect that the keys are probably stolen.
and b) people who pre-ordered the game on good faith when it was practically a glint in charlie's eye, and unknowingly (at the time) received a free copy.
The problem is that the end buyer didn't cancel payment in the resale scenario, the end buyer bought a product from what they (in some cases) considered a legitimate source. But they are the ones ending up out of pocket.
The person who canceled (the person who had their card stolen) gets reimbursed, but the person who bought the product does not, they are simply put out of pocket by the action.
UWE on the other hand does not receive anything from cancelling the account, they remain out of pocket either way.
So the action only serves to put someone else out of pocket, it's not even shifting the burden, it's creating more burden, and the manner in which it's done further reduces the probability of the end buyer being willing to buy from UWE directly, and help make up their losses, even if they do get reimbursed from their card supplier or whatever.
The message is only effective if it gets through to its recipient, and the recipient in this case is not going to perceive it as a 'business transaction', because as far as they know, they paid for it, they should have it.
The end buyer bought from the middleman. As far as they're concerned, it is the middleman who broke their end of the contract.
You still haven't told me why UWE shouldn't continue acting on their half of the transaction.
Here's a scenario for you:
100% of people who had blacklisted keys continue to be able to use them. That means 0% will buy another copy -> 0 recouped losses for UWE.
vs
0% of people who had blacklisted keys continue to be able to use them. In this case, if some of them liked the game they may buy another copy. There was already 1 person in this thread who said they would -> non-0 recouped losses for UWE.
A A precedent has been set - want to play NS2 but can't afford $12.50 because of your drug habits and your day job at McD's? Go to xxx.ru and you can buy the game for $5, less than the cost of a Big Mac!
The ivory tower you're writing this post from must be quite lovely. Did you seriously just call everyone who buys games from a non-steam/official source as a drug addict/uneducated person? I'm pretty sure websites like greenmangaming never would have gotten up off the ground if everyone took the same attitude you're displaying in this thread.
Route 2: Joe Blow doesn't know what's going on, only that he is enjoying his discounted copy of NS2. When his buddies ask him where to buy it...
The flow of illegal keys was stopped by taking down the UWE store and implementing safeguards. Meaning the websites selling the illegal copies of the game cannot maintain stock of the game.
UWE really shouldn't care about you and if they don't then I don't blame them. Why the hell would anyone be nice to someone purchasing stolen merchandise? UWE is the one who got screwed here, not you. You took your chances with websites that are KNOWN SCAMS and now you are pissed you got screwed. UWE didn't screw you kid, some Slav did. Quit playing the victim and grow up. How much did you even pay for your key? I hope it was less than $10.
Because the people quite possibly didn't know they were purchasing stolen merchandise, and not all the sites are known scams, and until now so far as I am aware (and thus, so far as many people may be aware) there was no 'official list' of places where you can buy NS2 and where is a scam.
There are lots of websites which sell digital download videogames, just going out there right now I wouldn't know which ones are legit and which aren't without doing a bunch of research, and even then I wouldn't be sure. Steam has one price for things, origin has another, amazon has another still, gamersgate probably has a different one, gog.com has another still, everyone has their own ridiculous promotions where you can buy a million games for 95% off or something, and no doubt every website has its own contingent of people saying how it's a total scam and your account isn't safe and the TOS can be updated any time and you should buy everything on disc so you can always use it. Steam certainly does.
So it's really not the case you're making, not everyone in this scenario is out to screw UWE, and those that are certainly aren't going to be deterred by a loss like this. If they can recoup the money from their card, they will, and then they'll probably try another site or just download everything off a torrent site. People determined to be dicks will be so regardless of what you do to them, people who aren't probably won't respond nicely to you being a dick to them and taking their stuff off them.
"It's all fair and well someone saying UWE should let these people keep the keys but if the Law disagrees with this action from us we can face more complications"
did you not understand?
If UWE do not act, they leave themselves open to all manner of legal problems down the line. That $30,000 sum could wind up being a WHOLE LOT MORE.
While I agree with all of the other arguments being used to try to persuade you why your position is wrong, none of those is necessary when the above is true. Whatever the potential effect on customer morale, no small company can afford to **** with the government/taxman/(insert relevant department/institution here) if it wants to say in business.
I noticed that greenmangaming.com is also selling NS2 keys. Is this site illegitimate as well? I'm not worried as I preordered when you were in alpha, but I think some of my friends bought from there...
A A precedent has been set - want to play NS2 but can't afford $12.50 because of your drug habits and your day job at McD's? Go to xxx.ru and you can buy the game for $5, less than the cost of a Big Mac!
The ivory tower you're writing this post from must be quite lovely. Did you seriously just call everyone who buys games from a non-steam/official source as a drug addict/uneducated person? I'm pretty sure websites like greenmangaming never would have gotten up off the ground if everyone took the same attitude you're displaying in this thread.
Route 2: Joe Blow doesn't know what's going on, only that he is enjoying his discounted copy of NS2. When his buddies ask him where to buy it...
The flow of illegal keys was stopped by taking down the UWE store and implementing safeguards. Meaning the websites selling the illegal copies of the game cannot maintain stock of the game.
well played james.
you accuse prejudice by yourself associating everyone who works in McD's as uneducated?
i thought gorgenapper's post was satirical and funny.
A A precedent has been set - want to play NS2 but can't afford $12.50 because of your drug habits and your day job at McD's? Go to xxx.ru and you can buy the game for $5, less than the cost of a Big Mac!
The ivory tower you're writing this post from must be quite lovely. Did you seriously just call everyone who buys games from a non-steam/official source as a drug addict/uneducated person? I'm pretty sure websites like greenmangaming never would have gotten up off the ground if everyone took the same attitude you're displaying in this thread.
No, but anyone who buys a game from a car boot sale (or the internet equivalent thereof) knows exactly what is up.
An 'official source' is a retailer who has a reseller agreement established with UWE. GMG has one. Several sites have them. We aren't discussing those sites at the moment.
What we're talking about right now is people who buy keys with stolen credit cards to 'stock' them. Not an actual retailer; the internet equivalent of that scumbag who grabs things off end tables when they think no one is looking.
Route 2: Joe Blow doesn't know what's going on, only that he is enjoying his discounted copy of NS2. When his buddies ask him where to buy it...
The flow of illegal keys was stopped by taking down the UWE store and implementing safeguards. Meaning the websites selling the illegal copies of the game cannot maintain stock of the game.
And the stolen keys invalidated, to slap the hands of people who bloody well knew buying from a random Russian 'cheap software!' site was on the shady side.
If you want to boil it down, look at it this way. Whoever bought the key at the end of the chain is irrelevant. The payment used to purchase the key was cancelled. That means the product gets revoked, no matter who has/is using it. This is flat-out caveat emptor. Either a shady site stole a key and resold it to someone, or some asshat bought the game and issued a chargeback as they wanted a refund. In either case, that key has no longer been paid for, and goes away.
Pleading the case that an 'innocent consumer' is involved is frankly outright laughable.
In the end it really doesn't matter. You are not a customer of UWE. You are a customer of whatever fucked up site from Eastern Europe you bought the key from. Take it up with them.
"It's all fair and well someone saying UWE should let these people keep the keys but if the Law disagrees with this action from us we can face more complications"
did you not understand?
If UWE do not act, they leave themselves open to all manner of legal problems down the line. That $30,000 sum could wind up being a WHOLE LOT MORE.
While I agree with all of the other arguments being used to try to persuade you why your position is wrong, none of those is necessary when the above is true. Whatever the potential effect on customer morale, no small company can afford to **** with the government/taxman/(insert relevant department/institution here) if it wants to say in business.
I would imagine the law would be satisfied with my proposed solution as well.
Though frankly, the amount of things the law 'may' disagree with is so vast, that operating on the basis of what 'may' be found objectionable is ridiculous.
I'm sure, if people really wanted to, they could find a way the law 'may' disagree with the idea of cutting off service to the 1000+ people who would then be out of pocket. I'm sure if you wanted to you could argue a case where UWE is completely at fault because they didn't adequately advertise the unofficialness of the other sources.
Basically, 'may' is not good enough when you bring up legal concerns.
A A precedent has been set - want to play NS2 but can't afford $12.50 because of your drug habits and your day job at McD's? Go to xxx.ru and you can buy the game for $5, less than the cost of a Big Mac!
The ivory tower you're writing this post from must be quite lovely. Did you seriously just call everyone who buys games from a non-steam/official source as a drug addict/uneducated person? I'm pretty sure websites like greenmangaming never would have gotten up off the ground if everyone took the same attitude you're displaying in this thread.
strawman arguments just make you look even more of a troll than you already are, and distract from the point I'm trying to make. And yes, the view from my ivory tower is quite lovely too.
Route 2: Joe Blow doesn't know what's going on, only that he is enjoying his discounted copy of NS2. When his buddies ask him where to buy it...
The flow of illegal keys was stopped by taking down the UWE store and implementing safeguards. Meaning the websites selling the illegal copies of the game cannot maintain stock of the game.
[/quote]
You still haven't made a rebuttal against the point I'm trying to make, that UWE was justified in deactivating those keys to avoid setting a precedent.
A A precedent has been set - want to play NS2 but can't afford $12.50 because of your drug habits and your day job at McD's? Go to xxx.ru and you can buy the game for $5, less than the cost of a Big Mac!
The ivory tower you're writing this post from must be quite lovely. Did you seriously just call everyone who buys games from a non-steam/official source as a drug addict/uneducated person? I'm pretty sure websites like greenmangaming never would have gotten up off the ground if everyone took the same attitude you're displaying in this thread.
No, but anyone who buys a game from a car boot sale (or the internet equivalent thereof) knows exactly what is up.
An 'official source' is a retailer who has a reseller agreement established with UWE. GMG has one. Several sites have them. We aren't discussing those sites at the moment.
What we're talking about right now is people who buy keys with stolen credit cards to 'stock' them. Not an actual retailer; the internet equivalent of that scumbag who grabs things off end tables when they think no one is looking.
Route 2: Joe Blow doesn't know what's going on, only that he is enjoying his discounted copy of NS2. When his buddies ask him where to buy it...
The flow of illegal keys was stopped by taking down the UWE store and implementing safeguards. Meaning the websites selling the illegal copies of the game cannot maintain stock of the game.
And the stolen keys invalidated, to slap the hands of people who bloody well knew buying from a random Russian 'cheap software!' site was on the shady side.
If you want to boil it down, look at it this way. Whoever bought the key at the end of the chain is irrelevant. The payment used to purchase the key was cancelled. That means the product gets revoked, no matter who has/is using it. This is flat-out caveat emptor. Either a shady site stole a key and resold it to someone, or some asshat bought the game and issued a chargeback as they wanted a refund. In either case, that key has no longer been paid for, and goes away.
Pleading the case that an 'innocent consumer' is involved is frankly outright laughable.
While I agree that it's not UWE's problem, one thing that isn't mentioned is that that buyer now has an option to chargeback the retailer as well. That retailer will probably lose its merchant account over accusations of fraud. What's happening now is the ONLY correct course of action for UWE as I see it, as things will resolve themselves properly through the merchant accounts, and people will stop being shafted by the same retailers for ANY game. Granted, those people will probably pack up shop and create a new (fraudulent) business entity to scam people with, but at least it slows them down a bit.
However, some empathy may be in order for the buyers who received the fraudulent keys. They legitimately tried to pay for the game and SOME of them (caveat emptor notwithstanding) may legitimately have been unaware of the shady nature of their purchase. Stupid people do exist, and you can't simply hate them because they're stupid - they're consumers too.
Comments
actually it's more like 'hey you bought this from guys who bought it with stolen credit card information'.
it's a valuable lesson - if it's below market price then ask yourself WHY. if you take a gamble then prepare to face the consequences if the product is knock-off, illegitimate crap etc.
The key seller is still making a profit and UWE is still being charged with a fee, deactivating the copies just means that 1000+ people no longer have a game on top of that.
That's my point, deactivating the keys achieves no visible good that I can discern.
Which can be learned by simply informing people, it doesn't require deactivating the keys and informing people afterwards why they don't have a game. That is destructive in itself because you're taking away something people enjoy and it is potentially further destructive down the line because it sours business with people who are interested in your product.
It serves no constructive end, it's punishment for punishment's sake, for petty vengeance, there is no sense in it.
It makes you have to buy the game from a legitimate source instead of a, quite literally, stolen copy.
People break into cars worth $30k to steal two bucks.
No it doesn't, it just makes you stop playing it, and puts you in a position where you can either buy it again, off people who just took it off you when you paid for it (from your perspective) or you can simply say 'these people are dicks, I don't want to give them anything' which is entirely possible.
I don't think it stands a reasonable chance, handled like this, of getting many people at all to buy a legit copy.
I cannot believe what I just read here.
In the end it really doesn't matter. You are not a customer of UWE. You are a customer of whatever fucked up site from Eastern Europe you bought the key from. Take it up with them.
i'd be peeved if these guys were allowed to keep their stolen version. they're effectively laughing at everyone who spent extra to buy the game from legitimate sources.
the only thing that makes the 'extra' fee from legitimate sources fair for the customer is that those naive/sly people run the risk of getting their key deactivated.
as far as i'm concerned, UWE's response was a reward for everyone who purchased the game legitimately.
Are you suggesting a one time amnesty, a special exception for people who buy through these sites on a going forward basis Or anyone that cancels their credit card purchase should get the game for free?
Setting aside the current circumstance for a sec... Canceled payment = deactivated key. Would be silly for a business to not do this. Right? I mean the word would get out if they stayed active.
Now as for victims of fraud - in theory UWE could work with those people, but this is a separate business decision from key deactivation - which has to happen. But honestly, I dont think UWE has the responsibility (or resources) to manage, track, vet, work with victims of this type of fraud. Victims work with their card company (if they choose) & can decide themselves if they want to by a legit copy.
That still doesn't answer what good it does.
As I said, approached differently, it could produce customers of UWE, because the people obviously want the product UWE is selling, so they are strong potential customers.
Making your potential customers perceive you as being a dick is possibly not the soundest business practice?
Again, as I said, with the view you're suggesting it's just 'we don't care about you, so we're going to take this off you, deal with it'.
Which, again, is just petty vengeance.
are you speaking with empathy?
i wonder because if you dropped the price by 99% you could find some strong potential customers.... but that's just unfair to the loyal and legit customers. what do you think that would do for the corporate image?
You pay money -> you receive goods or services. Let's just call NS2 a service since you seem so adamant that it's not a physical good.
When you cancel payment, that means you no longer receive goods or services, and if the services were already rendered then the person who received the services is legally on the hook for payment, or else they are guilty of breaching a contract. This is well-understood business practice.
Therefore, UWE is simply saying "I didn't receive payment. Pony up or your access to our service is henceforth denied."
What's so difficult about that to understand?
It's not UWE's fault that people tried to go through a middleman in order to get a cheaper price. The people who are affected by blacklisted keys should take it up with the middleman.
As opposed to the thousands of people who got the game for free via UWE approved methods?
Obviously the cost of implementation of such a thing might be a reason against this, but I feel like giving people who were affected a pop-up that told them what happened, and then giving them the option of spending more to help UWE (ie: 8 dollar upgrade to deluxe or something) would have been far more beneficial for all parties involved.
1) Inform the key holder that his key was stolen, explain the details of why and how, and offer a one-time amnesty to allow him to keep playing NS2.
2) Say nothing and let Joe Blow keep playing NS2, informing the community this is a goodwill gesture.
Route 1: If Joe Blow is an upstanding gamer, he will buy a full copy of NS2 to keep playing, and find some way to recover the money he had spent on the fradulent copy. But chances are Joe Blow is an opportunistic person with few morals, especially when shielded by internet anonymity. He will play the 'free' copy of NS2 (not really 'free', but was not deactivated...) while laughing all the way to the bank, recommend the game to his buddies, and tell them where to buy this game. The same process repeats itself, and the only winners here are the discount key websites and the CC companies (I cannot believe that they charge $22 ONTOP of the $25 charge back). A precedent has been set - want to play NS2 but can't afford $12.50 because of your drug habits and your day job at McD's? Go to xxx.ru and you can buy the game for $5, less than the cost of a Big Mac!
Route 2: Joe Blow doesn't know what's going on, only that he is enjoying his discounted copy of NS2. When his buddies ask him where to buy it...
Also, imagine how UWE must feel at this point. They worked hard on this game, only to have their intellectual property stolen and redistributed, *AND* to be out $30k...a significant amount of change for an indie studio.
The problem is that the end buyer didn't cancel payment in the resale scenario, the end buyer bought a product from what they (in some cases) considered a legitimate source. But they are the ones ending up out of pocket.
The person who canceled (the person who had their card stolen) gets reimbursed, but the person who bought the product does not, they are simply put out of pocket by the action.
UWE on the other hand does not receive anything from cancelling the account, they remain out of pocket either way.
So the action only serves to put someone else out of pocket, it's not even shifting the burden, it's creating more burden, and the manner in which it's done further reduces the probability of the end buyer being willing to buy from UWE directly, and help make up their losses, even if they do get reimbursed from their card supplier or whatever.
The message is only effective if it gets through to its recipient, and the recipient in this case is not going to perceive it as a 'business transaction', because as far as they know, they paid for it, they should have it.
That would be counterproductive because you would probably make less profit on it, though some companies do give their really old games away for free, and that is actually quite good for their image.
In this case however, what I'm suggesting could potentially increase sales by not pissing off potential customers. That is productive as well as considerate and good for image, it's an all around good thing.
UWE really shouldn't care about you and if they don't then I don't blame them. Why the hell would anyone be nice to someone purchasing stolen merchandise? UWE is the one who got screwed here, not you. You took your chances with websites that are KNOWN SCAMS and now you are pissed you got screwed. UWE didn't screw you kid, some Slav did. Quit playing the victim and grow up. How much did you even pay for your key? I hope it was less than $10.
it's almost laughable that you can't see a difference between;
a) people who want to rip-off UWE by going to dodgy seller and buying super cheap, with or without the prudence to expect that the keys are probably stolen.
and b) people who pre-ordered the game on good faith when it was practically a glint in charlie's eye, and unknowingly (at the time) received a free copy.
The end buyer bought from the middleman. As far as they're concerned, it is the middleman who broke their end of the contract.
You still haven't told me why UWE shouldn't continue acting on their half of the transaction.
Here's a scenario for you:
100% of people who had blacklisted keys continue to be able to use them. That means 0% will buy another copy -> 0 recouped losses for UWE.
vs
0% of people who had blacklisted keys continue to be able to use them. In this case, if some of them liked the game they may buy another copy. There was already 1 person in this thread who said they would -> non-0 recouped losses for UWE.
Which one is the better business decision?
The ivory tower you're writing this post from must be quite lovely. Did you seriously just call everyone who buys games from a non-steam/official source as a drug addict/uneducated person? I'm pretty sure websites like greenmangaming never would have gotten up off the ground if everyone took the same attitude you're displaying in this thread.
The flow of illegal keys was stopped by taking down the UWE store and implementing safeguards. Meaning the websites selling the illegal copies of the game cannot maintain stock of the game.
Because the people quite possibly didn't know they were purchasing stolen merchandise, and not all the sites are known scams, and until now so far as I am aware (and thus, so far as many people may be aware) there was no 'official list' of places where you can buy NS2 and where is a scam.
There are lots of websites which sell digital download videogames, just going out there right now I wouldn't know which ones are legit and which aren't without doing a bunch of research, and even then I wouldn't be sure. Steam has one price for things, origin has another, amazon has another still, gamersgate probably has a different one, gog.com has another still, everyone has their own ridiculous promotions where you can buy a million games for 95% off or something, and no doubt every website has its own contingent of people saying how it's a total scam and your account isn't safe and the TOS can be updated any time and you should buy everything on disc so you can always use it. Steam certainly does.
So it's really not the case you're making, not everyone in this scenario is out to screw UWE, and those that are certainly aren't going to be deterred by a loss like this. If they can recoup the money from their card, they will, and then they'll probably try another site or just download everything off a torrent site. People determined to be dicks will be so regardless of what you do to them, people who aren't probably won't respond nicely to you being a dick to them and taking their stuff off them.
which part of
"It's all fair and well someone saying UWE should let these people keep the keys but if the Law disagrees with this action from us we can face more complications"
did you not understand?
If UWE do not act, they leave themselves open to all manner of legal problems down the line. That $30,000 sum could wind up being a WHOLE LOT MORE.
While I agree with all of the other arguments being used to try to persuade you why your position is wrong, none of those is necessary when the above is true. Whatever the potential effect on customer morale, no small company can afford to **** with the government/taxman/(insert relevant department/institution here) if it wants to say in business.
You feel very clever until something like this happens to you, then everyone laughs.
well played james.
you accuse prejudice by yourself associating everyone who works in McD's as uneducated?
i thought gorgenapper's post was satirical and funny.
An 'official source' is a retailer who has a reseller agreement established with UWE. GMG has one. Several sites have them. We aren't discussing those sites at the moment.
What we're talking about right now is people who buy keys with stolen credit cards to 'stock' them. Not an actual retailer; the internet equivalent of that scumbag who grabs things off end tables when they think no one is looking.
And the stolen keys invalidated, to slap the hands of people who bloody well knew buying from a random Russian 'cheap software!' site was on the shady side.
If you want to boil it down, look at it this way. Whoever bought the key at the end of the chain is irrelevant. The payment used to purchase the key was cancelled. That means the product gets revoked, no matter who has/is using it. This is flat-out caveat emptor. Either a shady site stole a key and resold it to someone, or some asshat bought the game and issued a chargeback as they wanted a refund. In either case, that key has no longer been paid for, and goes away.
Pleading the case that an 'innocent consumer' is involved is frankly outright laughable.
The point
< you
I would imagine the law would be satisfied with my proposed solution as well.
Though frankly, the amount of things the law 'may' disagree with is so vast, that operating on the basis of what 'may' be found objectionable is ridiculous.
I'm sure, if people really wanted to, they could find a way the law 'may' disagree with the idea of cutting off service to the 1000+ people who would then be out of pocket. I'm sure if you wanted to you could argue a case where UWE is completely at fault because they didn't adequately advertise the unofficialness of the other sources.
Basically, 'may' is not good enough when you bring up legal concerns.
strawman arguments just make you look even more of a troll than you already are, and distract from the point I'm trying to make. And yes, the view from my ivory tower is quite lovely too.
The flow of illegal keys was stopped by taking down the UWE store and implementing safeguards. Meaning the websites selling the illegal copies of the game cannot maintain stock of the game.
[/quote]
You still haven't made a rebuttal against the point I'm trying to make, that UWE was justified in deactivating those keys to avoid setting a precedent.
While I agree that it's not UWE's problem, one thing that isn't mentioned is that that buyer now has an option to chargeback the retailer as well. That retailer will probably lose its merchant account over accusations of fraud. What's happening now is the ONLY correct course of action for UWE as I see it, as things will resolve themselves properly through the merchant accounts, and people will stop being shafted by the same retailers for ANY game. Granted, those people will probably pack up shop and create a new (fraudulent) business entity to scam people with, but at least it slows them down a bit.
However, some empathy may be in order for the buyers who received the fraudulent keys. They legitimately tried to pay for the game and SOME of them (caveat emptor notwithstanding) may legitimately have been unaware of the shady nature of their purchase. Stupid people do exist, and you can't simply hate them because they're stupid - they're consumers too.