I'm taking a entirely soul-destroying course in statistics right now...
Stay with it Squish! Attack that course full force! I thought it was soul destroying while I was studying statistics (and as a result, didn't retain as much as I would have liked). But of all the subjects I studied, I find it one of the most applicable in the real world/workplace. Now I find myself buying statistics textbooks on Amazon and reading them for pleasure. (Damn, I'm never gonna get la**.)
Severely angering a particularly vocal and passionate group, such as those above, is not a good way to maintain the game. [...] But to send that stakeholder group into a tailspin is not good for the community or long term health of the game.
Aggressive forum whining effectiveness confirmed! Commencing whine level escalation...
This sounds like you changed something although you shouldn't have, not like you fixed a bug
@ "balance" discussion
The NS2stats examples actually show a nice overall picture:
In 239 all game lengths were roughly equal in win percentage, especially the first 5-6 bars which include like 95% of all games (under 30 minutes). The OVERALL balance was unacceptably skewed towards Aliens though.
In 240, you can see that
Aliens keep a good winning percentage for base rushes (1st bar, under 5 minute games)
everything else under 20 minutes (bars 2-4) is horribly skewed towards Marines (less than 20% Aliens wins 5-10 minutes!!!) and that these comprise a majority of games
This is NOT balance. This is tons of shits statistically cancelling each other out, resulting in a "balanced" overall 50% ratio.
If you happen to play Aliens sometimes, you know the obvious reason for this is the bricking of the Skulk. Part of that was the improved hitreg for Marines (which HAD to be done, there is no good alternative, even if balance suffers without other changes, it is good that this wwas done) and another part is likely due to the Skulk bug (because jumping is the only way to evade Marines on an open floor, and it's not hard to imagine that losing momentum after every jump is a bad thing then).
Your average marine learning to attack harvesters instead of wasting time at one gorge wall all map would be a pretty good start. The solution to the average marine being incredibly stupid is not to make the skulk movement system total ass. Sorry.
It is still my observation that Marines do a LOT more strategic mistakes like this example than Aliens. How often do you see half the Alien team unsuccessfully and endlessly attacking some base which is defended by only 2 or 3 Marines, giving Aliens peace on the rest of the map?
I wonder how win percentages were if we removed all games where Marines fail to take a clog wall Just to see what happens then...
I'm taking a entirely soul-destroying course in statistics right now...
Stay with it Squish! Attack that course full force! I thought it was soul destroying while I was studying statistics (and as a result, didn't retain as much as I would have liked). But of all the subjects I studied, I find it one of the most applicable in the real world/workplace. Now I find myself buying statistics textbooks on Amazon and reading them for pleasure. (Damn, I'm never gonna get la**.)
We should be looking forward to seeing some standard deviation graphs and regression analysis from you in the future then
This whole situation is proof of a phenomenon I have tried to explain in balance threads in the past. That is, that NS2 is a very, very complex interdependent system and the tiniest changes can swing win probabilities significantly.
Its more proof that complex systems can usually be described or modeled based on a few, highly sensitive parameters. The difficulty is usually finding the correct parameters.
B240 gives strong evidence that changes to the skulks 'maintainable speed' is likely one those highly sensitive parameters.
What will bring the game back to 50.7% or better and when will we have see it?
Your average marine learning to attack harvesters instead of wasting time at one gorge wall all map would be a pretty good start.
That will happen over time. To some degree. There will always be novice players, and there will always be bad players. Over time there will be fewer of them, proportionally speaking. Not a whole lot UWE can do wrt gameplay to improve the skills of the average marine.
I'm taking a entirely soul-destroying course in statistics right now...
Stay with it Squish! Attack that course full force! I thought it was soul destroying while I was studying statistics (and as a result, didn't retain as much as I would have liked). But of all the subjects I studied, I find it one of the most applicable in the real world/workplace. Now I find myself buying statistics textbooks on Amazon and reading them for pleasure. (Damn, I'm never gonna get la**.)
Statistics is one of the few collegiate subjects that has even modest applicability in the real world. It's a shame we don't teach it in high school.
Statistics is one of the few collegiate subjects that has even modest applicability in the real world. It's a shame we don't teach it in high school.
I'm in high-school (junior) and am currently taking stat/prob (my school also has an AP version of the course). I actually really enjoy it, it's been the most like-able math class I've taken since algebra 1
That's been an issue since launch, but yes, I am puzzled why there still aren't any whitelisted mods. It's crazy the things you have to do to run a server that doesn't get flagged - completely sacrifices all the advantages of their modding system.
There will always be novice players, and there will always be bad players. Over time there will be fewer of them, proportionally speaking. Not a whole lot UWE can do wrt gameplay to improve the skills of the average marine.
To be fair UWE doesn't want there to be fewer since it wants to keep selling copies. You can't balance the game and exclude new players, or you won't have any new players. (man how I wish they had a trainer - it would make a HUGE difference in this regard)
However, I'm actually really looking forward to seeing how this patch affects balance. This is actually an excellent opportunity to evaluate how the marine vs skulk matchup was/is affecting game balance. If we end up back where we started, (aliens 60/40 wins) then it will be pretty clear that the marine vs skulk combat needs to be looked at. However, if it doesn't, then this would validate the opposing view.
These are the times when I wish there was a way the public could see the game stats.
However, I'm actually really looking forward to seeing how this patch affects balance. This is actually an excellent opportunity to evaluate how the marine vs skulk matchup was/is affecting game balance. If we end up back where we started, (aliens 60/40 wins) then it will be pretty clear that the marine vs skulk combat needs to be looked at. However, if it doesn't, then this would validate the opposing view.
You can't exactly say that this patch will directly show the marine vs skulk matchup because of the other changes in the patch. WIth the fixes and changes to the babblers, they may actually be useful now and provide some useful benefit in skirmishes.
Also, I'd much prefer say a reduced bite cone vs reduced movement.
You can't exactly say that this patch will directly show the marine vs skulk matchup because of the other changes in the patch. WIth the fixes and changes to the babblers, they may actually be useful now and provide some useful benefit in skirmishes.
Oh let's not be silly now - babblers are hardly going to tip the balance in any game, no matter what the case. The marine versus skulk battle is the epitome of NS - it's the bedrock. From it flows everything else. If balance goes back to 60/40 as it was, this will be a HUGE development since it will have exposed that there is an underlying imbalance in that matchup.
Oh let's not be silly now - babblers are hardly going to tip the balance in any game, no matter what the case. The marine versus skulk battle is the epitome of NS - it's the bedrock. From it flows everything else. If balance goes back to 60/40 as it was, this will be a HUGE development since it will have exposed that there is an underlying imbalance in that matchup.
Hey, we'll find out one way or another right?
If babblers can now be used to help keep a location from falling, then they can certainly tip the balance. I only just now learned how to use babblers most effectively, however, they were more of a distraction because the majority of the time they wouldn't hit the marines... but if the fixes makes so they actually hit the marines... not to mention the fact they could't be used as armor....... I'm not saying the change will affect the balance as much as the skulk fix, but it will certainly contribute to it, even if it's a small contribution.
Nothing is going to chance, Skulks are still bad it appears
Has Marine (or Skulk) plain running speed changed in 240? You can hardly keep up even running straight on the ground towards a Marine after the first bite. Or maybe it's the better hitreg which allows them to kill you faster, so you no longer reach them?
With the Skulk bug fixed, something is still *very* different, and it has nothing to do with air acceleration are fancy stuff like that.
Nothing is going to chance, Skulks are still bad it appears
Has Marine (or Skulk) plain running speed changed in 240? You can hardly keep up even running straight on the ground towards a Marine after the first bite. Or maybe it's the better hitreg which allows them to kill you faster, so you no longer reach them?
With the Skulk bug fixed, something is still *very* different, and it has nothing to do with air acceleration are fancy stuff like that.
For starters, Skulks should try to avoid the straight-line floor running tactic if they ever hope to win.
It would be awesome if some high-level players spent an hour of their time recording their Skulk movement and uploading a 5 min video to youtube. Then everytime a new thread starts out with a big argument about how crap Skulks are someone can just link to the video.
It would be awesome if some high-level players spent an hour of their time recording their Skulk movement and uploading a 5 min video to youtube. Then everytime a new thread starts out with a big argument about how crap Skulks are someone can just link to the video.
Where are the NS2 FPV frag videos!?!
There's plenty of saved videos on Twitch TV by a few members of competitive NS2. Give 'em a try!
If babblers can now be used to help keep a location from falling, then they can certainly tip the balance.
If babblers can prevent marines from taking a location then they are horridly overpowered. Babblers are meant to be a distraction and a nuisance. The only patch change that will impact balance in any meaningful way is the skulk change. That's what I'll be watching, and I bet the developers will be doing the same.
Nothing is going to chance, Skulks are still bad it appears
Has Marine (or Skulk) plain running speed changed in 240? You can hardly keep up even running straight on the ground towards a Marine after the first bite. Or maybe it's the better hitreg which allows them to kill you faster, so you no longer reach them?
With the Skulk bug fixed, something is still *very* different, and it has nothing to do with air acceleration are fancy stuff like that.
Marine speed had no changes made.
Skulk max speed was unchanged.
Skulk acceleration and friction values were tweaked:
It would be awesome if some high-level players spent an hour of their time recording their Skulk movement and uploading a 5 min video to youtube. Then everytime a new thread starts out with a big argument about how crap Skulks are someone can just link to the video.
Being good with Skulks and thinking they're crap are not mutually exclusive. Good players can adapt, easily. Doesn't mean it's fun or satisfying.
Statistics is one of the few collegiate subjects that has even modest applicability in the real world. It's a shame we don't teach it in high school.
Totally agree. I enjoyed this short TED talk in which the speaker says we should change the High School math curriculum to put statistics, rather than calculus, at the top.
I haven't found jumping off a wall to give me any more extra speed but I’ve found extra speed from jumping off slanted surfaces. The funny thing is this applies to going downhill or uphill.
I still don't think the changes to skulk movement were for the worse in any case. Just means that you have to play skulk right now, the floor is always a bad place to be, you need to be erratic, jumping and climbing and ducking and dodging until you close the distance, then you strike. Or better yet you just let the enemy come right into your jaws through ambushing. Getting the jump isn't quite a garanteed kill anymore but that's alright, it gives the marine's more of a chance.
getting slower after a patch isn't fun, especially if people are already used to being "fast".
if anything the skulk speed should've been buffed, not nerfed, the game shouldn't be balanced around the lowest possible level, if the average marine can't aim he needs to improve, making his targets slower because of "50% balance" is not a good design choice, it's dumbing down the game.
That's been an issue since launch, but yes, I am puzzled why there still aren't any whitelisted mods. It's crazy the things you have to do to run a server that doesn't get flagged - completely sacrifices all the advantages of their modding system.
We won't ever be white listing mods because if we did we'd be taking responsibility for code which we have no control over. White listing would be like saying "this is an official part of NS2". We do recognize there are issues with the current presentation of modded servers in the server browser and we have a plan to remove the stigma associated with running mods -- we just haven't had time to do it yet.
Comments
In 241? I highly doubt it.
I managed to hit over 30 once in 239: http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/1118286662444481202/3FCAB464ECC804F104ABF5B971CAB52F2EA4228E/
I could do the same in 240, but now in 241 I can't get past 12, and that's trying really hard.
Stay with it Squish! Attack that course full force! I thought it was soul destroying while I was studying statistics (and as a result, didn't retain as much as I would have liked). But of all the subjects I studied, I find it one of the most applicable in the real world/workplace. Now I find myself buying statistics textbooks on Amazon and reading them for pleasure. (Damn, I'm never gonna get la**.)
This sounds like you changed something although you shouldn't have, not like you fixed a bug
@ "balance" discussion
The NS2stats examples actually show a nice overall picture:
In 239 all game lengths were roughly equal in win percentage, especially the first 5-6 bars which include like 95% of all games (under 30 minutes). The OVERALL balance was unacceptably skewed towards Aliens though.
In 240, you can see that
- Aliens keep a good winning percentage for base rushes (1st bar, under 5 minute games)
- everything else under 20 minutes (bars 2-4) is horribly skewed towards Marines (less than 20% Aliens wins 5-10 minutes!!!) and that these comprise a majority of games
This is NOT balance. This is tons of shits statistically cancelling each other out, resulting in a "balanced" overall 50% ratio.If you happen to play Aliens sometimes, you know the obvious reason for this is the bricking of the Skulk. Part of that was the improved hitreg for Marines (which HAD to be done, there is no good alternative, even if balance suffers without other changes, it is good that this wwas done) and another part is likely due to the Skulk bug (because jumping is the only way to evade Marines on an open floor, and it's not hard to imagine that losing momentum after every jump is a bad thing then).
Now we need to play and see how it goes.
It is still my observation that Marines do a LOT more strategic mistakes like this example than Aliens. How often do you see half the Alien team unsuccessfully and endlessly attacking some base which is defended by only 2 or 3 Marines, giving Aliens peace on the rest of the map?
I wonder how win percentages were if we removed all games where Marines fail to take a clog wall
We should be looking forward to seeing some standard deviation graphs and regression analysis from you in the future then
B240 gives strong evidence that changes to the skulks 'maintainable speed' is likely one those highly sensitive parameters.
That will happen over time. To some degree. There will always be novice players, and there will always be bad players. Over time there will be fewer of them, proportionally speaking. Not a whole lot UWE can do wrt gameplay to improve the skills of the average marine.
Also, stop being so negative.
Statistics is one of the few collegiate subjects that has even modest applicability in the real world. It's a shame we don't teach it in high school.
I'm in high-school (junior) and am currently taking stat/prob (my school also has an AP version of the course). I actually really enjoy it, it's been the most like-able math class I've taken since algebra 1
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/128832/developers-please-read-in-regards-to-unfair-labeling-of-servers-as-modded#latest
However, I'm actually really looking forward to seeing how this patch affects balance. This is actually an excellent opportunity to evaluate how the marine vs skulk matchup was/is affecting game balance. If we end up back where we started, (aliens 60/40 wins) then it will be pretty clear that the marine vs skulk combat needs to be looked at. However, if it doesn't, then this would validate the opposing view.
These are the times when I wish there was a way the public could see the game stats.
You can't exactly say that this patch will directly show the marine vs skulk matchup because of the other changes in the patch. WIth the fixes and changes to the babblers, they may actually be useful now and provide some useful benefit in skirmishes.
Also, I'd much prefer say a reduced bite cone vs reduced movement.
Hey, we'll find out one way or another right?
If babblers can now be used to help keep a location from falling, then they can certainly tip the balance. I only just now learned how to use babblers most effectively, however, they were more of a distraction because the majority of the time they wouldn't hit the marines... but if the fixes makes so they actually hit the marines... not to mention the fact they could't be used as armor....... I'm not saying the change will affect the balance as much as the skulk fix, but it will certainly contribute to it, even if it's a small contribution.
Has Marine (or Skulk) plain running speed changed in 240? You can hardly keep up even running straight on the ground towards a Marine after the first bite. Or maybe it's the better hitreg which allows them to kill you faster, so you no longer reach them?
With the Skulk bug fixed, something is still *very* different, and it has nothing to do with air acceleration are fancy stuff like that.
For starters, Skulks should try to avoid the straight-line floor running tactic if they ever hope to win.
Where are the NS2 FPV frag videos!?!
There's plenty of saved videos on Twitch TV by a few members of competitive NS2. Give 'em a try!
Marine speed had no changes made.
Skulk max speed was unchanged.
Skulk acceleration and friction values were tweaked:
In 239
Skulk.kAcceleration = 140
Skulk.kGroundFriction = 20
Skulk.kGroundWalkFriction = 33
In 240
Skulk.kAcceleration = 64
Skulk.kGroundFriction = 9.15
Skulk.kGroundWalkFriction = 15
No changes to these in 241
I really hope not. I guess if it gets UWE to its goals, it's good.
Being good with Skulks and thinking they're crap are not mutually exclusive. Good players can adapt, easily. Doesn't mean it's fun or satisfying.
I still don't think the changes to skulk movement were for the worse in any case. Just means that you have to play skulk right now, the floor is always a bad place to be, you need to be erratic, jumping and climbing and ducking and dodging until you close the distance, then you strike. Or better yet you just let the enemy come right into your jaws through ambushing. Getting the jump isn't quite a garanteed kill anymore but that's alright, it gives the marine's more of a chance.
if anything the skulk speed should've been buffed, not nerfed, the game shouldn't be balanced around the lowest possible level, if the average marine can't aim he needs to improve, making his targets slower because of "50% balance" is not a good design choice, it's dumbing down the game.
Quake has at least one /very/ old bug.
Just found that thread: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/125340/the-big-list-of-places-to-watch-competitive-ns2#latest and I must say, I thought I did ok as a Skulk but the very first video I watched was from a Marine POV and all the skulks looked like they were getting fired out of slingshots every time I saw them. Jesus.
Cheers.