Sad thing is that we have played with this mechanic for 10 years, and yet people come here making arguments and doomsday predictions about it, when we know exactly how it plays.
You have no clue how it plays.
Not sure how many times this needs repeating, but we do. We tested it in NS2 as well and it worked just fine. The only reason it was not included in public builds is because marines were too weak at a time. This would have weakened them even more.
Amongst the PT's there were also people for and against, with various arguments. In the end, nobody can say that it didn't work - the teamplay was just fine and everyone carried around a welder.
The only real argument right now is economics. Savant went into that just fine. I think the best way would be to either make welders very cheap, or free.
Sad thing is that we have played with this mechanic for 10 years, and yet people come here making arguments and doomsday predictions about it, when we know exactly how it plays.
You have no clue how it plays.
I am going to blow your mind, so brace yourself. You can, RIGHT NOW, go play this balance mod and see how it works out. All that evidence you want, well son, you can help generate it. Put on your life jacket jump in the deep end and prepare to be empirically overwhelmed with all this FIRST HAND EVIDENCE.
ITT
This mod implemented something that I like and I convinced myself that it plays perfectly, regardless of what the reality really is, and this is proof positive that it is the best gameplay change since skulks were given bite.
I strongly believe if you want to remove armor healing from armories you have to do it with one clean cut and remove it completely. The last thing we want is marines phasing back from a hot spot because they know only 2 pgs away is a armory to get welded at.
now with release of gorgeous marines have an edge. especially in competitive play, marines are now winning (as opposed to pre gorgeous, alien wins were standard) and i think the timing is now perfect for trying out new (old) things and to also change the marine side.
The effects armory armor healing had on the game (mostly pub games):
Marines run back to their base to restore their armor (of course). they do that after every little combat where they took damage, since its a good idea to maximize your chances before every engagement. This caused the marines to be more disconnected from the commander.
As mentioned in the other thread, it was a problem for aliens when they constantly have to face full armored marines. their play style is designed around hit&run (especially the fade), but their actions had zero effect in the end game. if you dont kill a marine, he will quickly have full armor again. By removing the armor healing, another marine would need to use a welder, which opens up a short time window for another attack since welding distracts. its a very small detail, but still important to mention.
Marines have an edge because skulk is broken right now. So once that is fixed will the timing still be perfect for making this change?
Besides if people hump armories right now why wouldn't they continue to do so when their lose health? As long as it heals health, people will always return to it to maximize their chances even without armor healing.
And if this is being done at least make welders free like others are saying. It will save pubs a lot of frustration.
ITT
This mod implemented something that I like and I convinced myself that it plays perfectly, regardless of what the reality really is, and this is proof positive that it is the best gameplay change since skulks were given bite.
Translation: My forum theorycrafting totally trumps a practical application of the mechanic where I can try it and gather real evidence in order to support my claims.
Everyone in this thread turned off the tip videos as soon as we figured out how to do it.
That's exactly my point. Everyone in this thread is a highly skilled NS player. Thus my stated worry.
I wouldn't worry about the accessibility of weld-your-buddy. If this change actually goes through, newbies will figure it out in the first five minutes of their first game. With or without the video tips.
However, if this is to be changed then welders need to be free. It would create a massive game imbalance if marines were expected to be buying a tool that effectively is lost nearly every time they die. It creates an artificial resource sink for the marines, which depresses their economy. So if marines are expected to buy a welder when spawning, aliens will need a similar resource sink to keep the economic impact balanced. [...] there WILL be an economic impact if marines need to buy welders. How much imbalance that creates in the game is open to debate, but there will be an imbalance by the simple nature of putting a cost on something that didn't have a cost before. So please keep that in mind.
You are overestimating the economic impact it would have. Even if the welder cost stays at 5 res, the actual impact would be minimal. You're forgetting that with this change, marines will (hopefully) move in groups and no welder will ever be lost to the team unless all of them die in a push with the area lost. In which case marines were perfectly aware of the calculated risk they were taking and probably lost things far more precious than a few welders.
With respect, I disagree. For every welder that a marine buys that is 5 res less they have in the later game. If they spend 20 res on welders over the course of a 30 minute game, that could easily make the difference between affording a 50 res EXO or a 75 res EXO. It's why if a person buys a pack of mines they are making a personal sacrifice, since it is a consumable that offers no guarantee that it will have any impact at all. Spending 5 res might be justified if that res was used to weld up a pile of marines. However a person could spend 5 res, get killed and the team sees no benefit at all.
The game economy matters. That's why the devs have balanced the tech tree to within 10 res for each team. (full tech tree cost for aliens is 560res and for marines is 550res) You can't just slap an additional mandatory personal cost onto marines and suggest it will have no impact on gameplay.
Let's be honest, if you can't get armor anywhere else, then it becomes a mandatory cost. Now I'm not opposed to this in principle, my issue is the damage to the economy, not the mechanic itself. We can't just start downloading new costs onto marines and pretending that it won't have an impact. It will. To what extent is unknown, but I can guarantee that public servers will be hit hard by this if the welder doesn't spawn with a stock marine. Public players have a hard enough time trying to coordinate teamwork, and even in this thread we hardly have anyone who has even seen the tip that marines can weld other marines.
Hey, it's also possible on pubs it won't have any economic impact since hardly anyone will ever buy them, and the marines will just start losing more. Do we really want to go back down that road when marine balance is so much better now? (After a week the win/loss ratio is 47% aliens 53% marines)
Again, my issue is not the welder, it's the fragile economy. If marines are going to have a resource sink added, then similar needs to be added to aliens in some way. Or the cost for the welder needs to be removed to maintain economic balance. Given how much work has gone into balancing the economy, it would be unwise to not take the impact seriously.
ITT
This mod implemented something that I like and I convinced myself that it plays perfectly, regardless of what the reality really is, and this is proof positive that it is the best gameplay change since skulks were given bite.
Translation: My forum theorycrafting totally trumps a practical application of the mechanic where I can try it and gather real evidence in order to support my claims.
Ok, show me the real evidence you have gained.
Show me how marine team cohesion has increased since this change with 100 or more surveys of each player's experiences. Show me the conclusive balance figures and how they shifted with respect to this single change. Show me anything that you can prove with even the slightest amount of evidence.
Oh right, you don't have anything like that. You throw the word evidence around and hope nobody questions you about it. Practical experience leaves you biased, theory leaves you inexperienced. Lets not pretend one is better than the other.
LOL I have no clue how it plays? Im not even going to justify that with the kind of response it deserves, Im just going to say you’re doing a great job convincing people on your opinions with remarks like that.
ITT
This mod implemented something that I like and I convinced myself that it plays perfectly, regardless of what the reality really is, and this is proof positive that it is the best gameplay change since skulks were given bite.
Translation: My forum theorycrafting totally trumps a practical application of the mechanic where I can try it and gather real evidence in order to support my claims.
Ok, show me the real evidence you have gained.
Show me how marine team cohesion has increased since this change with 100 or more surveys of each player's experiences. Show me the conclusive balance figures and how they shifted with respect to this single change. Show me anything that you can prove with even the slightest amount of evidence.
Oh right, you don't have anything like that. You throw the word evidence around and hope nobody questions you about it. Practical experience leaves you biased, theory leaves you inexperienced. Lets not pretend one is better than the other.
I'm pretty sure he's saying that by implementing the change then there will be evidence to gather.
The way I see it, the armory changes along with the increased upgrade costs will mean that there will be less incentive for the commander to research armor upgrades. Why waste all of that res on protection that is so easily stripped away? (though I'm sure people will disagree)
Other miscellaneous things:
Marines won't need to stand at the armory for as long if they are healing - this may end up promoting quicker gameplay.
More people will dump their personal res to purchase welders.
Bile bomb will become more effective.
I'm going to give the mod a shot and see how it is.
having tried the mod (very low pop) i don't have a problem with armory change...
you'll see robotics and mac's more frequently... right now you never see a mac, and you never see robotics unless commander is going for ARC. imo it really adds a lot to the atmosphere etc when you see a mac pottering around the base.
my problem was having to rely on the unreliable pub teammates. but when commander's get a grasp of these changes, the use of robotics/mac will become standard and therefore ducking around the map asking for armor is never going to be a problem.
ITT
This mod implemented something that I like and I convinced myself that it plays perfectly, regardless of what the reality really is, and this is proof positive that it is the best gameplay change since skulks were given bite.
Translation: My forum theorycrafting totally trumps a practical application of the mechanic where I can try it and gather real evidence in order to support my claims.
Ok, show me the real evidence you have gained.
Show me how marine team cohesion has increased since this change with 100 or more surveys of each player's experiences. Show me the conclusive balance figures and how they shifted with respect to this single change. Show me anything that you can prove with even the slightest amount of evidence.
Oh right, you don't have anything like that. You throw the word evidence around and hope nobody questions you about it. Practical experience leaves you biased, theory leaves you inexperienced. Lets not pretend one is better than the other.
I'm still sitting here wondering what is so hard about just going and trying it. You have nothing to lose but time, and with the amount of that you are spending here attempting highbrow arguments you seem to have plenty to spare.
my problem was having to rely on the unreliable pub teammates. but when commander's get a grasp of these changes, the use of robotics/mac will become standard and therefore ducking around the map asking for armor is never going to be a problem.
MACS really aren't worth the TF investment atm. Maybe if they buffed sentries...
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited March 2013
Now I wish I had recorded a video or taken a picture of the marine 'welder orgy' that occurred for the beta build that removed armories repairing armor. It was particularly amusing watching four marines clumped together in a small circle trying to repair each other so they didn't get two-swiped by a fade or two-bit by a skulk.
Welder-only armor repairing worked in NS1, but at this point NS2 has largely been balanced around marines being as near full armor at all times from armory armor repairing. Remove it and expect to see the marine deathcount skyrocket.
my problem was having to rely on the unreliable pub teammates. but when commander's get a grasp of these changes, the use of robotics/mac will become standard and therefore ducking around the map asking for armor is never going to be a problem.
MACS really aren't worth the TF investment atm. Maybe if they buffed sentries...
i think it will give mac's a good purpose.
you have armory for health/ammo and mac for armor.
otherwise why not remove armory ability to regenerate hp, armor and ammo and move EVERYTHING to the welder? why arbitrarily stop at armor?
I dont see how NS2 has at all been balanced around marines having full armor always. Fades do less dps, have lower health, and move slower than NS1. Skulks with leap are slower and larger. The shotgun does more damage per shot than NS1... Aliens in NS1 had focus and the game was still balanced without armories healing armor. The hit and run nature of every alien lifeform has always been balanced around wearing marines down. I have largely warned of how many marine inherient 'features' were actually extremely overpowered, and that the only real reason you saw winrates 60/40 for aliens was because of onos, skulk movement & respawn rates and gorges. Look at the impacts on winrates after a change to just one of those 3 elements, imagine if they all were fixed.
NS just isn't the same when armories completely nullify the alien play style. I played a couple of games with this mod last night; it feels so good to be welded again after all these years. The feeling of teamwork and comradeship gained from this simple act is immeasurable.
but when commander's get a grasp of these changes, the use of robotics/mac will become standard and therefore ducking around the map asking for armor is never going to be a problem.
If comms start dropping early robotics factories to compensate for this change, then marine win rates will go down the drain. It's hard enough for an experienced comm to use a robotics factory effectively before late game, to have pub comms survive this is a longshot.
The problem with these balance playtests is that they are with skilled players. The 'average marine' has a hard enough time with the learning curve, do we really think making it harder will help?
If we make welders stock for all marines, then they can adapt. If they have to be purchased it *will* negatively impact balance. To what extent is debatable, but we can't suggest that making marines repeatedly shell out 5 res for welders - when they have a hard enough time holding down extractors - is going to go over well in pubs.
Again, it's not the mechanic that is the problem, it's the cost.
but when commander's get a grasp of these changes, the use of robotics/mac will become standard and therefore ducking around the map asking for armor is never going to be a problem.
If comms start dropping early robotics factories to compensate for this change, then marine win rates will go down the drain. It's hard enough for an experienced comm to use a robotics factory effectively before late game, to have pub comms survive this is a longshot.
The problem with these balance playtests is that they are with skilled players. The 'average marine' has a hard enough time with the learning curve, do we really think making it harder will help?
If we make welders stock for all marines, then they can adapt. If they have to be purchased it *will* negatively impact balance. To what extent is debatable, but we can't suggest that making marines repeatedly shell out 5 res for welders - when they have a hard enough time holding down extractors - is going to go over well in pubs.
Again, it's not the mechanic that is the problem, it's the cost.
I really don't see how the change will overall negatively effect balance. You consider the con, but not the pro.
Marines spend their 5 pres each on Welders so the commander saves 10 tres researching them. (1/2 of the cost of a RF + Mac) Welders will help keep the extractors up because they can be... welded.
How is it so bad for marines to CHOOSE to buy a welder (new players are not forced into using Welders) and possibly lose it, when you see new players CHOOSING to lose both of their Gorges and their Hydras (all of their res) in the first 5 minutes? Where is the lack of balance here?
Also, you mention one of the problems here is that Marines do not hit Alien RTs in the same way that Aliens do. (marines have a hard time holding extractors) This change encourages marines to get out there, use their welders to kill cysts, and be more aggressive. Hopefully, this will encourage equal trades rather than just the Marines losing their RTs. Consider the pros.
Here's a side-effect I'm sure you didn't consider: early-game clogs are significantly less effective because Welders will be available at the start.
Overall, you cannot predict how public games will be played. Everyone plays differently and the ways that the playerbase reacts to changes like this can only be quoted once they have all ready happened.
Why not? I shell out 5 res for welders all the time. They can easily adapt to to buying welders. Give a lil' more credit to the public at large. (Now while I've even suggested lowering the cost of welders prior to compensate for this possible change.) I still think 5 res is plenty cheap, especially if another teammate ends up picking it up after I die anyway, I've often picked up many many welders in the field, unlike aliens again (unless bile bombed) marine weapons have the potentional to be endlessly recycled if played well.
Side note: Stating word in asterik's doesent automatically make for fact, provide sound/hard reasoning how it will negtivitly impact balance rather than actually help improve balance overall (especially in regards to alien playstyle). Current Alien/Marine win rates isnt the final end all to balance, sometimes integral changes have to be made regardless of current win percentage on either say becuase an aspect of the game is currently not working as intended by the original core vision of the game by the devolopers. Welder cost and armories not repairing armor are simply one of a thousand interwoven factors in this game that make up the overall balance. Just as important as the overall win rate is also about the fun and enjoyability of every aspect of the game and every ability, every feature in the game today , true balance is maximizing the balance of everything so everything is viable and doesent have a useless feeling attached to it, every ability, every upgrade a viable avenue for victory without making it the only avenue for victory. That's true game balance.
If comms start dropping early robotics factories to compensate for this change, then marine win rates will go down the drain. It's hard enough for an experienced comm to use a robotics factory effectively before late game, to have pub comms survive this is a longshot.
[...]
If we make welders stock for all marines, then they can adapt. If they have to be purchased it *will* negatively impact balance. To what extent is debatable, but we can't suggest that making marines repeatedly shell out 5 res for welders - when they have a hard enough time holding down extractors - is going to go over well in pubs.
I agree that robo factories won't be able to compensate properly, but I don't think making welders free or stock loadout is the resolution we should strive for. I know by your logic something that was free should stay free, but that would defy the whole point of the change.
I quite like my suggestion of making welders an undroppable upgrade to the build tool and have them cost 2 res. I mean, that is basically free if you keep in mind that not every marine will need a welder at all times.
I got interested in NS2 in the late beta, and the first negative thing I said about the game to my friends was that the armoury heals armor. I'd be more than happy to see this feature disappear and replaced with welders.
However, the current way of picking up stuff from the ground is terrible, like Virsoul mentioned. It's a gamble if you'll be dropping your current weapon or picking up the welder from the ground. You have to be really precise on your actions. I would like to see this improved, to something similar HL engine does.
Drop a gun -> walk over a gun (or a welder) and its yours, simple. None of this "press G to pick up" -thing. Or fine-tune the current system that it's actually practical.
I have high hopes for the mod, keep up the good work
Finally this maybe happening, keep up good the work sewlek. This thing is just great, no back and fort all over again.. It worked really well in NS1 and why not in ns2? Saunamen approves
I just installed the balance test mod to our server: Saunamen.priv 2 85.114.140.94:33350. No password
I feel welder are highly underrated, especially by several of you in this thread. Think two man pressure teams taking and holding a natural rt expansion. The welder no longer allows them to be two shot, which can be the make or break. The ability to retain map presence when building power/armory is not an objective is at the very least a boon to a teams success rate in a given encounter. (Also all the forward armories res could then be spent on other tres sinks, thus while you suffer a small hit in your pres your team has benefits)
So while welder a might not win games, it can win encounters. And winning encounters wins games.
Lastly, everyone seems to think its ok to drop res on a welder when EXOs come out, why not before hand? Especially if that's the only way to repair, welding would soon become the norm, at least if the price is right.
If we make welders stock for all marines, then they can adapt. If they have to be purchased it *will* negatively impact balance. To what extent is debatable, but we can't suggest that making marines repeatedly shell out 5 res for welders - when they have a hard enough time holding down extractors - is going to go over well in pubs. Again, it's not the mechanic that is the problem, it's the cost.
I really don't see how the change will overall negatively effect balance. You consider the con, but not the pro.
Marines spend their 5 pres each on Welders so the commander saves 10 tres researching them. (1/2 of the cost of a RF + Mac) Welders will help keep the extractors up because they can be... welded.
10 res is nothing in the big scheme of things. As I mentioned above, the full tech tree cost for aliens is 560 res, and for marines is 550 res. Knocking off 10 res is insignificant for the overall game. (10 res makes a difference at the very start, but no one researches welders as soon as game starts.)
How is it so bad for marines to CHOOSE to buy a welder (new players are not forced into using Welders) and possibly lose it, when you see new players CHOOSING to lose both of their Gorges and their Hydras (all of their res) in the first 5 minutes? Where is the lack of balance here?
I think you may be overlooking the fact that we're tinkering with a fundamental game element here.
There are two primary constants that will exist in any game like this. A player will GIVE damage and a player will TAKE damage. Armor + health = effective health. When a player TAKES damage we now look at the means for a player to HEAL that damage. That duality (of giving and taking damage) is a very simple yet intricate principle that will lay the foundation for balance throughout the game.
Here is a simple, but absurd, example. Both teams can GIVE damage, but only one team can HEAL damage that they take. The other team cannot - ever. In that case you have a situation where the team that can't heal becomes progressively weaker, while the team that can heal will be able to restore themselves to full health. You end up with a fundamental imbalance.
This is one of the reasons why armor is in the game. When a person GIVES damage, the amount of damage that the other player TAKES is tightly controlled and balanced. It allows one person with one weapon the ability to do MORE damage to a person with a set amount of armor than another person. It's why a person's armor may absorb only one EXO bullet (per point of armor), but will absorb two LMG bullets (per point of armor). Armor becomes the means in which all of these match-ups are balanced.
Armor becomes a fundamental balance point.
Let me quote Charlie here:
Armor exists to tweak the effectiveness of different weapons independently. It would be really hard or impossible to balance the game without it.
If marines find themselves without any armor on a regular basis, then the game has become fundamentally unbalanced. Efforts that have been made by the developers to assure that a certain battle is 'balanced' are wasted since the armor just isn't there.
Again, this all comes down to the COST of welders. Without a cost, users will adapt. If they find that they have a welder on their person at all times, then they'll use it.
However, if we make a person buy a welder to restore armor we ignore the fact that players are now going to be making a potential choice between buying a shotgun and buying a welder. The impact of that choice weakens the marine team no matter WHAT choice is made. If the marine buys the welder, then marines are weaker from an offensive standpoint. If he buys the shottie then marines are weaker from a defensive standpoint.
NS2 is already a game with an enormous learning curve and a high difficulty level. Making people buy welders only complicates it more since you are now draining piles of p-res from the marine team that you weren't draining before.
As I said, we can't just dump a new cost on the marine team and pretend it's not going to make any kind of difference. It will. The question becomes whether we want to further complicate the already fragile economy and balance in the game by making the marines pay for welders.
You make it sound like the game is balanced currently, economically or mechanically. In truth, the marine economy is too cheap and leads to marines able to get almost all upgrades while losing rts constantly, just like aliens float massive amounts of team resources. There are major changes to both teams eco in this mod that go along with this change, if you are looking at the pres cost of welders as a possible balance issue you’re looking at an issue that has almost 0 relevance in the grand scheme.
My question is how far should we be taking this? I recall NS1 had NO armory healing in the early days and that the only healing was from the commander's medpacks. If that's too much, why don't we make the welder heal health and just get rid of the armory's healing ability all together? That way we'll make the marines even more vulnerable to hit and runs, the marines will NEED welders, and the aliens will be buffed. Win for everyone, right?
You'll NEED welders and a teammate in order to win the game. What better teamwork is there than that? It'll be just like the Heavy and Medic dynamic.
As I said, we can't just dump a new cost on the marine team and pretend it's not going to make any kind of difference. It will. The question becomes whether we want to further complicate the already fragile economy and balance in the game by making the marines pay for welders.
I agree that removing armory repair without changing the cost of welders will affect balance.
However, I think that we should probably retain the cost of welders as they are now and adjust balance as needed somewhere else. If welders have a cost, then the decision to buy one remains an interesting decision. If they're free then it's a non-decision.
For the reasons that you've pointed out elsewhere, five pres per welder can become a very significant cost, even moreso than one might expect if we remove armory repair, because the need to purchase welders will go up. So is five pres too expensive? I don't think so. Yes, it's expensive, but not so expensive that it becomes a trivial decision to not purchase them. Zero is too low, five is high but probably not too high. For reasons of elegance I'd be in favor of keeping it at round numbers, so lets go with five rather than three or four.
If that's too much of a marine nerf then give them a small buff in something else once we see what the effects really are.
The odd thing, though, is that this change will have a larger effect on weak marine teams than on good ones, for two reasons. First, weak marines won't weld each other effectively and so will die more than they do now. Second, weak marines die more often, so they'll pay more for welders than good marines do. They already pay more for shotguns and jet packs for the same reason, but welders will be a constant necessity compared to the occasional luxuries of SGs/JPs.
I agree with whoever said the welder has always felt out of place in NS2 - conceptually they're very close to the builder tool that everyone gets for free, and in gameplay terms their need is suppressed by armoury healing. If armoury healing is going away, then welders should be cheaper and/or more common, or even integrated into the marine's default capabilities (i.e. you could remove the welder entirely and let the builder tool repair armour and structures by holding use).
Comments
ITT
This mod implemented something that I like and I convinced myself that it plays perfectly, regardless of what the reality really is, and this is proof positive that it is the best gameplay change since skulks were given bite.
Marines have an edge because skulk is broken right now. So once that is fixed will the timing still be perfect for making this change?
Besides if people hump armories right now why wouldn't they continue to do so when their lose health? As long as it heals health, people will always return to it to maximize their chances even without armor healing.
And if this is being done at least make welders free like others are saying. It will save pubs a lot of frustration.
I wouldn't worry about the accessibility of weld-your-buddy. If this change actually goes through, newbies will figure it out in the first five minutes of their first game. With or without the video tips.
The game economy matters. That's why the devs have balanced the tech tree to within 10 res for each team. (full tech tree cost for aliens is 560res and for marines is 550res) You can't just slap an additional mandatory personal cost onto marines and suggest it will have no impact on gameplay.
Let's be honest, if you can't get armor anywhere else, then it becomes a mandatory cost. Now I'm not opposed to this in principle, my issue is the damage to the economy, not the mechanic itself. We can't just start downloading new costs onto marines and pretending that it won't have an impact. It will. To what extent is unknown, but I can guarantee that public servers will be hit hard by this if the welder doesn't spawn with a stock marine. Public players have a hard enough time trying to coordinate teamwork, and even in this thread we hardly have anyone who has even seen the tip that marines can weld other marines.
Hey, it's also possible on pubs it won't have any economic impact since hardly anyone will ever buy them, and the marines will just start losing more. Do we really want to go back down that road when marine balance is so much better now? (After a week the win/loss ratio is 47% aliens 53% marines)
Again, my issue is not the welder, it's the fragile economy. If marines are going to have a resource sink added, then similar needs to be added to aliens in some way. Or the cost for the welder needs to be removed to maintain economic balance. Given how much work has gone into balancing the economy, it would be unwise to not take the impact seriously.
Ok, show me the real evidence you have gained.
Show me how marine team cohesion has increased since this change with 100 or more surveys of each player's experiences. Show me the conclusive balance figures and how they shifted with respect to this single change. Show me anything that you can prove with even the slightest amount of evidence.
Oh right, you don't have anything like that. You throw the word evidence around and hope nobody questions you about it. Practical experience leaves you biased, theory leaves you inexperienced. Lets not pretend one is better than the other.
I'm pretty sure he's saying that by implementing the change then there will be evidence to gather.
Other miscellaneous things:
Marines won't need to stand at the armory for as long if they are healing - this may end up promoting quicker gameplay.
More people will dump their personal res to purchase welders.
Bile bomb will become more effective.
I'm going to give the mod a shot and see how it is.
you'll see robotics and mac's more frequently... right now you never see a mac, and you never see robotics unless commander is going for ARC. imo it really adds a lot to the atmosphere etc when you see a mac pottering around the base.
my problem was having to rely on the unreliable pub teammates. but when commander's get a grasp of these changes, the use of robotics/mac will become standard and therefore ducking around the map asking for armor is never going to be a problem.
I'm still sitting here wondering what is so hard about just going and trying it. You have nothing to lose but time, and with the amount of that you are spending here attempting highbrow arguments you seem to have plenty to spare.
Welder-only armor repairing worked in NS1, but at this point NS2 has largely been balanced around marines being as near full armor at all times from armory armor repairing. Remove it and expect to see the marine deathcount skyrocket.
i think it will give mac's a good purpose.
you have armory for health/ammo and mac for armor.
otherwise why not remove armory ability to regenerate hp, armor and ammo and move EVERYTHING to the welder? why arbitrarily stop at armor?
Nanite magic
NS just isn't the same when armories completely nullify the alien play style. I played a couple of games with this mod last night; it feels so good to be welded again after all these years. The feeling of teamwork and comradeship gained from this simple act is immeasurable.
What if the Robotics Factory came with 1 free MAC?
The problem with these balance playtests is that they are with skilled players. The 'average marine' has a hard enough time with the learning curve, do we really think making it harder will help?
If we make welders stock for all marines, then they can adapt. If they have to be purchased it *will* negatively impact balance. To what extent is debatable, but we can't suggest that making marines repeatedly shell out 5 res for welders - when they have a hard enough time holding down extractors - is going to go over well in pubs.
Again, it's not the mechanic that is the problem, it's the cost.
I really don't see how the change will overall negatively effect balance. You consider the con, but not the pro.
Marines spend their 5 pres each on Welders so the commander saves 10 tres researching them. (1/2 of the cost of a RF + Mac) Welders will help keep the extractors up because they can be... welded.
How is it so bad for marines to CHOOSE to buy a welder (new players are not forced into using Welders) and possibly lose it, when you see new players CHOOSING to lose both of their Gorges and their Hydras (all of their res) in the first 5 minutes? Where is the lack of balance here?
Also, you mention one of the problems here is that Marines do not hit Alien RTs in the same way that Aliens do. (marines have a hard time holding extractors) This change encourages marines to get out there, use their welders to kill cysts, and be more aggressive. Hopefully, this will encourage equal trades rather than just the Marines losing their RTs. Consider the pros.
Here's a side-effect I'm sure you didn't consider: early-game clogs are significantly less effective because Welders will be available at the start.
Overall, you cannot predict how public games will be played. Everyone plays differently and the ways that the playerbase reacts to changes like this can only be quoted once they have all ready happened.
Side note: Stating word in asterik's doesent automatically make for fact, provide sound/hard reasoning how it will negtivitly impact balance rather than actually help improve balance overall (especially in regards to alien playstyle). Current Alien/Marine win rates isnt the final end all to balance, sometimes integral changes have to be made regardless of current win percentage on either say becuase an aspect of the game is currently not working as intended by the original core vision of the game by the devolopers. Welder cost and armories not repairing armor are simply one of a thousand interwoven factors in this game that make up the overall balance. Just as important as the overall win rate is also about the fun and enjoyability of every aspect of the game and every ability, every feature in the game today , true balance is maximizing the balance of everything so everything is viable and doesent have a useless feeling attached to it, every ability, every upgrade a viable avenue for victory without making it the only avenue for victory. That's true game balance.
I quite like my suggestion of making welders an undroppable upgrade to the build tool and have them cost 2 res. I mean, that is basically free if you keep in mind that not every marine will need a welder at all times.
Finally this maybe happening, keep up good the work sewlek. This thing is just great, no back and fort all over again.. It worked really well in NS1 and why not in ns2? Saunamen approves
I just installed the balance test mod to our server: Saunamen.priv 2 85.114.140.94:33350. No password
So while welder a might not win games, it can win encounters. And winning encounters wins games.
Lastly, everyone seems to think its ok to drop res on a welder when EXOs come out, why not before hand? Especially if that's the only way to repair, welding would soon become the norm, at least if the price is right.
I think you may be overlooking the fact that we're tinkering with a fundamental game element here.
There are two primary constants that will exist in any game like this. A player will GIVE damage and a player will TAKE damage. Armor + health = effective health. When a player TAKES damage we now look at the means for a player to HEAL that damage. That duality (of giving and taking damage) is a very simple yet intricate principle that will lay the foundation for balance throughout the game.
Here is a simple, but absurd, example. Both teams can GIVE damage, but only one team can HEAL damage that they take. The other team cannot - ever. In that case you have a situation where the team that can't heal becomes progressively weaker, while the team that can heal will be able to restore themselves to full health. You end up with a fundamental imbalance.
This is one of the reasons why armor is in the game. When a person GIVES damage, the amount of damage that the other player TAKES is tightly controlled and balanced. It allows one person with one weapon the ability to do MORE damage to a person with a set amount of armor than another person. It's why a person's armor may absorb only one EXO bullet (per point of armor), but will absorb two LMG bullets (per point of armor). Armor becomes the means in which all of these match-ups are balanced.
Armor becomes a fundamental balance point.
Let me quote Charlie here: If marines find themselves without any armor on a regular basis, then the game has become fundamentally unbalanced. Efforts that have been made by the developers to assure that a certain battle is 'balanced' are wasted since the armor just isn't there.
Again, this all comes down to the COST of welders. Without a cost, users will adapt. If they find that they have a welder on their person at all times, then they'll use it.
However, if we make a person buy a welder to restore armor we ignore the fact that players are now going to be making a potential choice between buying a shotgun and buying a welder. The impact of that choice weakens the marine team no matter WHAT choice is made. If the marine buys the welder, then marines are weaker from an offensive standpoint. If he buys the shottie then marines are weaker from a defensive standpoint.
NS2 is already a game with an enormous learning curve and a high difficulty level. Making people buy welders only complicates it more since you are now draining piles of p-res from the marine team that you weren't draining before.
As I said, we can't just dump a new cost on the marine team and pretend it's not going to make any kind of difference. It will. The question becomes whether we want to further complicate the already fragile economy and balance in the game by making the marines pay for welders.
You'll NEED welders and a teammate in order to win the game. What better teamwork is there than that? It'll be just like the Heavy and Medic dynamic.
I agree that removing armory repair without changing the cost of welders will affect balance.
However, I think that we should probably retain the cost of welders as they are now and adjust balance as needed somewhere else. If welders have a cost, then the decision to buy one remains an interesting decision. If they're free then it's a non-decision.
For the reasons that you've pointed out elsewhere, five pres per welder can become a very significant cost, even moreso than one might expect if we remove armory repair, because the need to purchase welders will go up. So is five pres too expensive? I don't think so. Yes, it's expensive, but not so expensive that it becomes a trivial decision to not purchase them. Zero is too low, five is high but probably not too high. For reasons of elegance I'd be in favor of keeping it at round numbers, so lets go with five rather than three or four.
If that's too much of a marine nerf then give them a small buff in something else once we see what the effects really are.
The odd thing, though, is that this change will have a larger effect on weak marine teams than on good ones, for two reasons. First, weak marines won't weld each other effectively and so will die more than they do now. Second, weak marines die more often, so they'll pay more for welders than good marines do. They already pay more for shotguns and jet packs for the same reason, but welders will be a constant necessity compared to the occasional luxuries of SGs/JPs.