Armory and Armor

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Comments

  • GorgenapperGorgenapper Join Date: 2012-09-05 Member: 157916Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Maybe reduce the cost of welders to 3 pRes. Minor buff...but if you want more people to use welders. Also maybe increase the rate of welding for marine armor. Please fix medpack dropping so that you can drop a medpack directly on a marine.

    Another thing to consider, marines have enough res sinks as it is in the early game, this change will more than likely make welder research mandatory. Suggestions include making welders available from the very start, or reducing their research cost to 5 TRes.

    Also...when killing harvesters and other alien structures (except cysts and clogs), my weapon of choice is the axe because it doesn't use ammo and (I believe) it does structural damage. Once I get a welder, I have to drop it in order to use my axe. Is it possible to move welders to slot 4, mines to slot 5 (once mines are placed, slot 5 shouldn't be used very much anymore)?

    Overall, I'm willing to try this nerf out on marines, if only because I remember how it was back in NS1.
  • extolloextollo Ping Blip Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72457Members
    Namm wrote: »
    NS2 did one good thing in regard to Armories from NS1; you spawn with max ammo. Thus ending the spawn-and-hump-the-Armory routine. How annoying wasn't it to lose a Phase Gate (and sometimes entire games) just because some players were obsessed with leaving main with full ammo?

    personally, i would say its different, but wouldn't elevate it to good. as a marine it provided a team over self decision in those instances which i appreciated. also was a factor in mad alien base rushes - limited ammo on respawned guys. in vanilla spawn scenarios though, armor humping was a chore. I understand & I'm ok with the current situation.
  • XaoXao Join Date: 2012-12-12 Member: 174840Members
    edited March 2013
    Virsoul wrote: »
    What I remember from beta when armories didn't heal armor:

    Me: Hey Dude can you weld me?
    Dude: ::no response::
    Me: Dude! Can you weld me?!
    Dude: no welder
    Me: Here, use mine! [Drops Welder]
    Dude: [Drops LMG] [Fumbles Picking Up LMG] [Picks Up Welder] [Welds] [Runs Off]
    Me: Hey, can I have that back?!
    Dude: [Turns Around] how?
    Me: Press G!
    Dude: [Drops LMG]

    This times a fucking million, if the hit reg in this game wasn't as is I might like to half entertain the idea but knowing that marines pushing objectives are going to be perm 2 bites away from death or constantly sinking extra pres towards welders and not wanting to push because they don't want to lose welders would be bad enough. Only reason why it worked in NS 1 was because you could repair yourself, which like I said in the balance thread, you're fucking kidding yourself if you think other people welded in HA trains without 5-6 prompts and putting the brakes on the train.

    edit: and it was never your 'pres' in NS1 it was always the magical fountain of comm res that flowed infinite.
  • IndustryIndustry Esteemed Gentleman Join Date: 2010-07-13 Member: 72344Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter

    Another thing to consider, marines have enough res sinks as it is in the early game, this change will more than likely make welder research mandatory. Suggestions include making welders available from the very start, or reducing their research cost to 5 TRes.

    Currently the mod has welders pre-researched at the start of the round.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Advanced armories really should not heal armor either, as that does nothing to resolve the late game turtling issues that go on since you will almost always have an AA. They already have welder icons on nearby players with damaged armor when you have a welder, and if a weld request is added I think that would suffice. I however also think that 25 health/s is too fast for the armories heal rate, and also that macs need more re-workings as 5 mac repair trains can be equally as frusrating as aliens (1 fade cannot kill anything with 3 macs repairing).
  • CrazyEddieCrazyEddie Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178196Members
    edited March 2013
    I do like the idea of marines being able to push forward without having to constantly retreat to the nearest armory. I like that a lot. Of course, they can do that now, because they can already use welders. But almost nobody ever does. Will removing armory-repair change that? I'm not sure it will, because armories will still restock health and ammo.

    As it is now, you can either: a) rely on the com for ammo and medpack drops and use welders or b) retreat to the armory.

    With this change, the options instead are either a) rely on the com for ammo and medpack drops and use welders or b) retreat to the armory AND use welders.

    I suspect that this change won't reduce the amount of amory-humping or the number of forward-deployed armories. It'll just add more welding. I'm not convinced that's an improvement.
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    Roobubba wrote: »
    |strofix| wrote: »
    Off the top of my head, I can say that I would not value full armour over the inconvenience and cost of buying a welder. I simply wouldn't do it. Not for anything other than an exo.

    If this has anything to do with promoting team work that way, it won't work. Its akin to making upgrades cost 1 res. Skulks simply won't take upgrades then.

    Don't underestimate the value of peer pressure ;) When the benefits are there, and when everyone else is doing it, will you still be stood at the side in a grump saying 'well I'm not buying one, you buy one!'? That will be a very fast way to ensure that no-one welds YOU :P

    It's a team game after all...

    Nobody else will do it either.

    The issue is that there is no way to know if its the right choice or not. Is it better to have 4 marines shooting, or 3 shooting and one repairing armour? Which is better? Do you have any conclusive evidence alluding to which is better? Are there pros and cons for each which seem equal?

    Now, given that you have no idea whether carrying a welder is a good idea or not, will you spend resources on it?
    The answer is almost always no. In all games.

    There must be a concrete and observable, clear advantage to having something, otherwise people simply won't be bothered.
  • IndustryIndustry Esteemed Gentleman Join Date: 2010-07-13 Member: 72344Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    |strofix| wrote: »
    There must be a concrete and observable, clear advantage to having something, otherwise people simply won't be bothered.

    Immediate advantage: not dying.

  • whiiiiwhiiii Join Date: 2012-10-29 Member: 164330Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I got interested in NS2 in the late beta, and the first negative thing I said about the game to my friends was that the armoury heals armor. I'd be more than happy to see this feature disappear and replaced with welders.

    However, the current way of picking up stuff from the ground is terrible, like Virsoul mentioned. It's a gamble if you'll be dropping your current weapon or picking up the welder from the ground. You have to be really precise on your actions. I would like to see this improved, to something similar HL engine does.

    Drop a gun -> walk over a gun (or a welder) and its yours, simple. None of this "press G to pick up" -thing. Or fine-tune the current system that it's actually practical.

    I have high hopes for the mod, keep up the good work :)
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    |strofix| wrote: »
    Roobubba wrote: »
    |strofix| wrote: »
    Off the top of my head, I can say that I would not value full armour over the inconvenience and cost of buying a welder. I simply wouldn't do it. Not for anything other than an exo.

    If this has anything to do with promoting team work that way, it won't work. Its akin to making upgrades cost 1 res. Skulks simply won't take upgrades then.

    Don't underestimate the value of peer pressure ;) When the benefits are there, and when everyone else is doing it, will you still be stood at the side in a grump saying 'well I'm not buying one, you buy one!'? That will be a very fast way to ensure that no-one welds YOU :P

    It's a team game after all...


    There must be a concrete and observable, clear advantage to having something, otherwise people simply won't be bothered.

    Here you go...
    gnoarch wrote: »
    In NS1 it worked fine on any pub server. Comm would drop a couple of welders and marines would weld each other after each engagement which makes alot of sense because it makes you that much stronger without taking away momentum like frequent armory humping does.
  • halfofaheavenhalfofaheaven Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168660Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold
    Xao wrote: »
    Only reason why it worked in NS 1 was because you could repair yourself, which like I said in the balance thread, you're fucking kidding yourself if you think other people welded in HA trains without 5-6 prompts and putting the brakes on the train.
    I don't know what servers you played on, but self-welding was a mod. And a stupid one at that. It worked just fine without the mod, and it will also work with pres as soon as people understand how important welding each other really is.

  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    edited March 2013
    gnoarch wrote: »

    You certainly can weld teammates currently, but why bother because armory.

    You can still simulate armor healing by dropping a MAC right next to an armory and it even has the benefit of being able to move with the marines. You don't necessarily have to hump welders. This change is really less about "forcing teamwork" and more about making alien hit and run tactics actually work, which is what their damage is balanced around.

    Focus isn't going to make things much better adding it without this change. Focus excelled in NS1 at finishing off wounded marines, we don't really have that anymore. Concerning metabolize, well it is just going to completely reset the engagement if there is an armory present, so once again no real change there. That isn't to say these two abilities don't have their positives, but in relation to the current state of the armory... they won't do much.

    i was suggesting some form of focus/metabolize (these are just examples) in addition to moving full healing to adv.armory.

    basis for that being to increase hit and run efficiency but also add more fun toys to play with. you can remove the armory crutch and make welding a tedious necessity, but at the end of the day you still have to just run in and roll face on keyboard until the marine is dead.

    the actual HIT AND RUN could be very much improved, instead of just nerfing the marine resistance to uninspired hit and run. new abilities = more options = new strategies = more fun...
  • IndustryIndustry Esteemed Gentleman Join Date: 2010-07-13 Member: 72344Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
  • DamDSxDamDSx Join Date: 2004-08-10 Member: 30506Members
    edited March 2013
    Roobubba wrote: »
    I am absolutely for this change. Even now with armouries dishing out armour, I find myself quite often welding teammates and dropping my welder for them to return the favour if we're holding a forward tactical location (eg stability monitoring) and don't yet have an armoury there. This mindset isn't generally out there (I'm guessing a lot of peeps on pub servers never played NS1 where this was the norm), but when you do have a buddy who thinks this way with you, you can really tell the difference.

    True, but NS1 was slower paced than NS2, this difference allowed you to stop, weld, drop, welder, get welded, recover welder, continue on.

    I dont think it is possible today. Maps are extremely small and skulks are on you in a matter of seconds, before you can even switch to your rifle. this can be viable if you have a lot of people around, but a group of 2 would be takinga huge risk doing this, seems better to just keep going until you die than die without firing a bullet.


    BTW, when I have welders I try to weld people I tell them to stop so I can weld them, but nobody listens and they run off to the nearest armory, I feel like an idiot :(
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    edited March 2013
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    |strofix| wrote: »
    Roobubba wrote: »
    |strofix| wrote: »
    Off the top of my head, I can say that I would not value full armour over the inconvenience and cost of buying a welder. I simply wouldn't do it. Not for anything other than an exo.

    If this has anything to do with promoting team work that way, it won't work. Its akin to making upgrades cost 1 res. Skulks simply won't take upgrades then.

    Don't underestimate the value of peer pressure ;) When the benefits are there, and when everyone else is doing it, will you still be stood at the side in a grump saying 'well I'm not buying one, you buy one!'? That will be a very fast way to ensure that no-one welds YOU :P

    It's a team game after all...


    There must be a concrete and observable, clear advantage to having something, otherwise people simply won't be bothered.

    Here you go...
    gnoarch wrote: »
    In NS1 it worked fine on any pub server. Comm would drop a couple of welders and marines would weld each other after each engagement which makes alot of sense because it makes you that much stronger without taking away momentum like frequent armory humping does.

    A marine's main strength is that he's free.
    And you can't take that away from meeeeeee

    Lets say, in an average game against people equally skilled as yourself, that you die once every minute. By the tenth minute minute you've spent 50 pRes on welders. You are going to have to come up with some pretty concrete evidence to make me think that welding up some marine's armour so that he can take 3 bites instead of one is worth 50 resources.

    Or should we not buy a welder every life? How should we know when to buy a welder? Are we going to spend in excess of a minute sitting at the armoury, wondering if this is the time to buy a welder? Maybe this time will be different, and this welder will actually save the game for us.

    At the end of the day, even the best case scenario yields little visible benefit from your welder. Yet every time you die without ever taking the damn thing out, it stings because you know you spent money on it, and that you made a mistake. And eventually, after being burnt one too many times, you stop buying it.
  • halfofaheavenhalfofaheaven Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168660Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold
    It's funny how easy it is to tell who's played NS1 and who hasn't.

    For the people against this: stop theorising and try it. I'm sure if it just doesn't work both camps will come to the same conclusion.
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    edited March 2013
    It's funny how easy it is to tell who's played NS1 and who hasn't.

    Its funny how this statement probably shows that it isn't.

    I wana know where you guys were playing that the commander dropped welders for light marines. That is some serious role playing right there. I bet he held a memorial every time one of his soldiers died as well.
  • CrazyEddieCrazyEddie Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178196Members
    edited March 2013
    It's funny how easy it is to tell who's played NS1 and who hasn't.

    Indeed. The ones who have played NS1 are the ones constantly complaining that things aren't exactly like they were in NS1.

    I mean, as long as we're making sweeping generalizations here...

    Edit: @halfofaheaven, I assume you meant to imply that everyone who is against the change has not played NS1 and everyone in favor of it has, and likewise imply that this proves that the change must be good.

    The people in this thread that have expressed reservations about this change include me, strofix, DamDSx, Xao, tarquinbb, and virsoul. Are you certain that none of these people have played NS1?

    If not, then please retract your baseless ad-hominem arguments. They don't contribute to the discussion.
  • DrArrogantoDrArroganto Join Date: 2013-03-04 Member: 183664Members
    edited March 2013
    Well with everyone discussing this I'll drop my two cents also.

    Playing as a marine I find it comical that you appear to have a welder like device for building structures and then you have to buy a welder to heal your buddies. Since I started playing last year it's felt clunky, not well thought out, and welders have always felt like an afterthought for me.

    -I would propose that armories ONLY be useful for replenishing ammo (and to do it faster than it does now). No health, no armor

    -Completely remove welders from the game and use the structure building gun as your welder, every marine already has one from spawn and could simply press "e" on their buddy or the Exo they're trying to weld up. (taking care of it being in your weapon cycle list as the welder is utterly useless offensively) Would give the game a bit of depth and give new players who may not be fully familiar with the res system something useful to do until they can shoot reliably. Shouldn't mess up balance too badly as it's still a delay to fire a weapon and mitigated further with my 3rd point. You also dont need a ugly welder icon above the marine who happens to have a welder, you can just say over coms "weld me up" and someone should know that pressing "e" will do that.

    -Make med packs do a full heal to 90% health no matter how wounded the marine was. Additionally, (and this might be stretching it) let marines buy a med-kit from the armory to support forward infantry helping to remove the "overly attached girlfriend" syndrome that we seem to have towards our comms. Make it take even 30 seconds to heal a marine with it if it's one applied from a fellow marine (still instant heal if your comm dropped it for you); I felt very close to my pubs in L4D2 when you're covering your "medic" while he's healing your squad mates.

    By only making med packs go to 90% even if they have full armor again, they reliably will have lower hp after an engagement. Heck, why not show how hurt they are in alien vision mode. A quick toggle to it and back would easily tell you who to pick off first.

    Would certainly need play testing to see how it effects balance, but I think it would keep it pretty level.
  • GeekavengerGeekavenger Join Date: 2012-08-31 Member: 157117Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I like the idea of allowing an advanced armory to heal health. This gives a big risk reward type scenario, as forward bases are more exposed so sinking res into them is a danger. Another thing that could be added would be some sort of clear animation like some sort of light show or motion to make it clear the armory is upgrading. Something so the aliens can see they need to take it down before the marines have the advantage. Another thought would be an upgrading armory can't heal or replenish ammo until it is done. This increases the risk of upgrading a forward armory to and Advanced armory. On top of that destroying an upgrading armory should loose the T-res invested in the upgrade (this may be the case now I am not sure).

    Even without AA healing or any of the tweaks I mention above, getting rid of armory armor repair makes sense to me.
  • ChizzlerChizzler Join Date: 2013-01-04 Member: 177532Members
    edited March 2013
    I don't think I'd like it. I vaguely remember how it worked in NS1, but as others have said, it was a much slower game.

    In NS2, Marines need to be aggressive to win, and having to spend an extra 15-20 seconds getting people welded up is a long time and kills the prospect of a counter attack. Yes it'll prevent turtles, but every occasion where someone could be using an armory to heal up (such as after defending any important location, not just your last base turtles) you'll be hindering the marines for far longer.

    Yes, more people should be using welders on the frontlines rather than wasting 30seconds going to an armory and back but the solution is awareness, not removing player/comm choices.

    Also I hate the idea of relying on others to repair me. It won't happen enough
  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members
    It's funny how easy it is to tell who's played NS1 and who hasn't.

    For the people against this: stop theorising and try it. I'm sure if it just doesn't work both camps will come to the same conclusion.


    This isn't NS1 and has much different game dynamics.......

    One thing I don't think people realize is that Hydras and whips become FAR more powerful without the ability to heal from armory. In many games, marines will setup a forward base with armory to try and break a clog/hydra/whips/crags blockade. Everyone will be able to shoot at the clogs/hydras trying to block the blockade and get more hp/armor/ammo from armory. With this change only half those people will be able to try and break the blockade because the other half will be welding armor. It is already hard enough to break that kind of a blockade. NS1 didn't have anything close to that.

    As I said in the previous thread, I am against this change UNLESS it is in conjunction with another change, such as welders being reduced to 0-1 p.res or advanced armory healing armor.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited March 2013
    I do think people are forgetting that more/cheaper welders could in fact also end up helping marines a lot. It wouldn't just compensate for armories no longer healing armour, it would also very possibly have a big impact on your average marine push, as it wouldn't be so easy to out-attrition a pack of marines moving down a part of the map. (I.e without stopping to set up an armory etc)

    The idea of allowing marines to repair a part of their own armour when using the welder sounds great, though I still think 5 p.res is going to be too expensive no matter what.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    (taking care of it being in your weapon cycle list as the welder is utterly useless offensively)
    It does melt away Clogs and Cysts by just making threatening insinuations with the Welder against those :P
  • Brad_RBrad_R pandas | brad Join Date: 2002-11-12 Member: 8273Members, Constellation
    Remove it. Give MACs a follow command.
  • CabooseCaboose title = name(self, handle) Join Date: 2003-02-15 Member: 13597Members, Constellation
    I'm sorry if this has been suggested, but what if an icon appeared over the head of a welder weilding marine similar to the "I need to be welded" icon. That way, players know who can heal armor, and the weilder knows people know he's got it?
  • mushookeesmushookees Join Date: 2008-03-26 Member: 63967Members
    allow advanced armories to still repair armor

    this would appease everyone
  • RobotixRobotix Join Date: 2013-02-20 Member: 183222Members
    If they are going to change this, then there needs to be some way to repair yourself without having to use up your Pres.
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    edited March 2013
    Sewlek wrote: »
    As most of you maybe know, in ns1 armories didnt restore armor.
    Quite true, however we need to put some perspective back into this discussion.

    In NS1 armories didn't restore armor. However they didn't restore health either, until Voogru's mod was rolled into the game. However, I digress.

    There are a number of things that make a comparison to NS1 tricky at best. First and foremost, in NS1 there was no personal resources for marines. That means a marine NEVER bought a welder. He couldn't since there was no interface for it since he had no personal resources to buy anything with. The commander had to buy and drop welders as needed. (which wasn't too painful given how marines were viable even with one resource node.)

    While buying welders was a resource sink for the commander, aliens had a resource sink of their own. While I don't know what the timeline was, I do know that at some point aliens had to pay 2 res for EVERY chamber upgrade they evolved to when they spawned. Want celerity and carapace? That's 4 res please. Every time you die. So aliens had their own resource sink as well.

    I have no problem with the change in principle to require marines to use welders to repair each other's armor.

    However, if this is to be changed then welders need to be free. It would create a massive game imbalance if marines were expected to be buying a tool that effectively is lost nearly every time they die. It creates an artificial resource sink for the marines, which depresses their economy. So if marines are expected to buy a welder when spawning, aliens will need a similar resource sink to keep the economic impact balanced. (Perhaps we can bring back the 2 res per chamber upgrade cost? We had that in NS1 too.)

    The simple way to implement this would be to put a welder in slot 4 of the marine's stock loadout when they spawn. (if they buy mines they drop the welder) Then there is no need to worry about the economic impact of the change. Give marines welders as stock equipment, then take welding off the armory and let the marines sort themselves out.

    Again, I have no problem with marines welding marines and the armory not providing welding. My big concern is the economic impact would be imbalanced. Free welders as stock equipment would resolve that concern for me though, and I would have no problem personally with it in that regard.

    Edit: Before anyone decides to click 'disagree', keep in mind that there WILL be an economic impact if marines need to buy welders. How much imbalance that creates in the game is open to debate, but there will be an imbalance by the simple nature of putting a cost on something that didn't have a cost before. So please keep that in mind.
  • WoollySammothWoollySammoth Join Date: 2013-02-14 Member: 183062Members
    edited March 2013
    Caboose wrote: »
    I'm sorry if this has been suggested, but what if an icon appeared over the head of a welder weilding marine similar to the "I need to be welded" icon. That way, players know who can heal armor, and the weilder knows people know he's got it?


    Nm, i misread your post, and then i spelled misread wrong :p


    I do like the thread's idea though, so plus one from me.
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