TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
I'm liking the changelist so far, for the most part; enforces more teamwork.
I especially like the armory not repairing armor. It will have people buying welders significantly more often, and require a choice between attacking/defending actively, and going into a 'repair cycle' with a good portion of the team defending at a time while those with welders fix everyone's armor up. Also helps to balance out the benefit of on-spawn instant increased armor for the base unit (which is still a major problem, IMO, granting Marines a significant advantage when it comes to turtling/endgame/saving a base that is under attack).
Sure, you'll have Rambos complaining about it. Good. They deserve it.
Honestly with a lot of the changes, it looks like it's moving in the direction of making the Khamm more and more superfluous... which IMO is a good thing. Give the Gorges the build menu back, rely on them to drop RTs/cysts, have abilities automatically unlock as each level of TRes is reached. It'd also help to cut down on rushing to three-hives ASAP, as it would slow down the pace at which items/abilities unlocked. Include a team vote-system as the first upgrade building is maturing, to decide what tree to go for first (eliminating the NS1 trollgorge problem).
Gorge = 10 pres, likely more on hydras/tunnels
Welder = 5 pres
Medpacks = 1 pres each
This sounds pretty balanced to me, which is the point of this test.
It also makes armor upgrades more useful. Most of the time you see marines lose all of their armor, get medpacks back to 100 hp and then continue to fight with no armor. This will encourage team-welding which will result in marines having their armor more often.
I like the changes a lot. Not sure about Biomass.
You forgot that Aliens regen health and ARMOR innately. You forgot that Aliens can heal armor at crags/hives. With this change, marines would require teammates with a welder or a mac.... that's it....
.... It just promotes turtling and mass humping and doesn't really add anything and there are better alternatives to armoury armour healing.
I'm curious as to what these better alternatives are? As of now in this balance mod, there is only requiring teammate to spend res and heal you or requiring comm to build a MAC station. Just like Aliens, there should be a way a Marine can self heal his armor when at a base without requiring other players to be there or forcing the comm to make sure he has macs down at all bases.
Seriously? Do you ever see Xenocide used to help win a game? Do you ever see Gorges using bile bomb to take down marine armor?
If anything, these changes will promote those underused mechanics. Being dependent on teammates is exactly what this game is about.
Did you miss the commander role?
As marine teams advance they lose armor. Unless someone is nice enough to bring welders which they usually do not you will be likely wiped out unless your team is heavily coordinated which pubs are usually not. Especially during those heavy armory pushes where everything turns hectic do you think people will whip out their welders and weld with that slow rate and risk getting killed? Once your armor goes down you will not get it back unless you are welded. This includes when your main base is being assaulted. The only way I can see this working is if welders are 0 pres and you have a choice between the switch axe and a welder. Then I will be ok with it. I am specifically talking about pubs which people horde their pres. They will not buy them.
Yes, I see people with welders now and I expect more people to use them in the future with these changes. The problem you are not considering is that Aliens need to use Gorges to heal out of their base. Marines now use Armories, not Gorges, which do not cost one of your players to have.
For balance, both teams need to require some sort of personal investment to heal each other to full in combat. For Aliens now, it's Gorges. For Marines it should be Welders, but instead right now it is Armories. I hope this explains why the changes are good at not bad. It only takes a few seconds to weld your buddy to full.
But aliens have regeneration as an option. They have passive healing as well even though it is slow. They also have crags and hives to heal their hp and armor back up. They do not need to rely on Gorges/teammates alone. If you say get a jetpack/shotgun and lost it all by a single fade/any alien attack because your teammates refuse to weld or spend 5 pres/do not have pres to spend ten it will become frustrating. But you know what I want it to happen. Just to see how the community responds to it as a whole.
Gorge = 10 pres, likely more on hydras/tunnels
Welder = 5 pres
Medpacks = 1 pres each
This sounds pretty balanced to me, which is the point of this test.
It also makes armor upgrades more useful. Most of the time you see marines lose all of their armor, get medpacks back to 100 hp and then continue to fight with no armor. This will encourage team-welding which will result in marines having their armor more often.
I like the changes a lot. Not sure about Biomass.
You forgot that Aliens regen health and ARMOR innately. You forgot that Aliens can heal armor at crags/hives. With this change, marines would require teammates with a welder or a mac.... that's it....
.... It just promotes turtling and mass humping and doesn't really add anything and there are better alternatives to armoury armour healing.
I'm curious as to what these better alternatives are? As of now in this balance mod, there is only requiring teammate to spend res and heal you or requiring comm to build a MAC station. Just like Aliens, there should be a way a Marine can self heal his armor when at a base without requiring other players to be there or forcing the comm to make sure he has macs down at all bases.
You forget that NS2 by its very nature is a game where one team DOES NOT GET what the other team does. Asymmetrical gameplay. Saying 'but the Kharaa can do X, so Marines should too!' just makes you look... foolish, as that's the idea, bud.
Would be interesting to see aliens not regenerating armor by default either.
Make it require a retreat to a Hive, Crag, Gorge or the use of the Regeneration ability. But no default armor regeneration without anything inducing it.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
You need to give the skorpions who fly without hoovaring a buff plx.
Suggestion: Make spores do little to no damage to those with full armor, and alot of damage, to those with no armor? So like, damaged visor or somefink?
Would be interesting to see aliens not regenerating armor by default either.
Make it require a retreat to a Hive, Crag, Gorge or the use of the Regeneration ability. But no default armor regeneration without anything inducing it.
I considered stating this but knew the response I would get would be "Asymmetry."
Seriously? Do you ever see Xenocide used to help win a game? Do you ever see Gorges using bile bomb to take down marine armor?
If anything, these changes will promote those underused mechanics. Being dependent on teammates is exactly what this game is about.
Did you miss the commander role?
As marine teams advance they lose armor. Unless someone is nice enough to bring welders which they usually do not you will be likely wiped out unless your team is heavily coordinated which pubs are usually not. Especially during those heavy armory pushes where everything turns hectic do you think people will whip out their welders and weld with that slow rate and risk getting killed? Once your armor goes down you will not get it back unless you are welded. This includes when your main base is being assaulted. The only way I can see this working is if welders are 0 pres and you have a choice between the switch axe and a welder. Then I will be ok with it. I am specifically talking about pubs which people horde their pres. They will not buy them.
Yes, I see people with welders now and I expect more people to use them in the future with these changes. The problem you are not considering is that Aliens need to use Gorges to heal out of their base. Marines now use Armories, not Gorges, which do not cost one of your players to have.
For balance, both teams need to require some sort of personal investment to heal each other to full in combat. For Aliens now, it's Gorges. For Marines it should be Welders, but instead right now it is Armories. I hope this explains why the changes are good at not bad. It only takes a few seconds to weld your buddy to full.
crag can be placed anywhere on infestation. not to mention passive regen on/off infestation.
fact is that marines are designed to need a babysitter for the medkit spam, which inevitably means that marines are designed to take a pummeling, which inevitably means that marines end up with no/low armour very often.
you could compare that to skulk having low hp, but marine could have 35-50pres invested in gear. therefore it would be more accurate to compare it to a fade being unable to regen past 100hp unless he can find a gorge to heal him back to maximum. indeed, ridiculous.
Marines did just fine in ns1 without the amory repairing armour, new players will learn just fine in ns2.
I've never liked the change in ns2, marines can hump an armory and back up to full health/armour in no time when aliens should be the regenerative ones.
Glad to see it's at least being considered in the balance mod :]
You forget that NS2 by its very nature is a game where one team DOES NOT GET what the other team does. Asymmetrical gameplay. Saying 'but the Kharaa can do X, so Marines should too!' just makes you look... foolish, as that's the idea, bud.
Yeah, lets see how you like it when your marine team is constantly spending p.res on welders to heal each other.... afterall you are going to lose a lot of welders from dying out on the field. Then your team won't have much overall p.res to spend buying stuff. If your team doesn't spend the p.res on them, the marines will just get massacred over and over.
I would be semi-okay with this change IF and only IF welders were free and didn't cost p.res.
Seriously? Do you ever see Xenocide used to help win a game? Do you ever see Gorges using bile bomb to take down marine armor?
If anything, these changes will promote those underused mechanics. Being dependent on teammates is exactly what this game is about.
Did you miss the commander role?
As marine teams advance they lose armor. Unless someone is nice enough to bring welders which they usually do not you will be likely wiped out unless your team is heavily coordinated which pubs are usually not. Especially during those heavy armory pushes where everything turns hectic do you think people will whip out their welders and weld with that slow rate and risk getting killed? Once your armor goes down you will not get it back unless you are welded. This includes when your main base is being assaulted. The only way I can see this working is if welders are 0 pres and you have a choice between the switch axe and a welder. Then I will be ok with it. I am specifically talking about pubs which people horde their pres. They will not buy them.
Yes, I see people with welders now and I expect more people to use them in the future with these changes. The problem you are not considering is that Aliens need to use Gorges to heal out of their base. Marines now use Armories, not Gorges, which do not cost one of your players to have.
For balance, both teams need to require some sort of personal investment to heal each other to full in combat. For Aliens now, it's Gorges. For Marines it should be Welders, but instead right now it is Armories. I hope this explains why the changes are good at not bad. It only takes a few seconds to weld your buddy to full.
crag can be placed anywhere on infestation. not to mention passive regen on/off infestation.
fact is that marines are designed to need a babysitter for the medkit spam, which inevitably means that marines are designed to take a pummeling, which inevitably means that marines end up with no/low armour very often.
you could compare that to skulk having low hp, but marine could have 35-50pres invested in gear. therefore it would be more accurate to compare it to a fade being unable to regen past 100hp unless he can find a gorge to heal him back to maximum. indeed, ridiculous.
Crags are not removed and neither are Armories, they are just serving their intended purpose now. Skulks are getting owned without Babbler armor/Gorge heals/Carapace so expect people to start using the same tactics as welding to actually keep each other alive. It's just what the smart players will do.
Passive regen is a moot point, Medpacks and Gorges are much stronger as they are near-instant.
If you die a lot with a Welder it is the same as dieing a lot as a Gorge. Personal investment rather than Armory spam.
Well, they should at least reduce the Pres cost of Welders then and/or make dropped weapons stay around longer (or at least not disappear if a marine is standing just a few steps away), especially given how Bile Bomb now dissolves weapons too. Otherwise I see marines getting locked out of weapons and armor healing pretty quickly if they die a lot and can't even retrieve their stuff.
(Though I haven't factored in how much the removal of "No res while dead" will affect the Pres of most marines.)
enticing players to work as a team is one thing, but FORCING players to work as a team is awful for public play. it causes an even bigger divide between the strong and weak side and it's even less fun to play when your team sucks.
i don't like it because i know i'll spend a lot of time stuck on 100 hp getting insta-killed by a skulk one-two punch.
You forget that NS2 by its very nature is a game where one team DOES NOT GET what the other team does. Asymmetrical gameplay. Saying 'but the Kharaa can do X, so Marines should too!' just makes you look... foolish, as that's the idea, bud.
doesn't the act of being forced to weld teammates have an air of symmetry to the gorge?
enticing players to work as a team is one thing, but FORCING players to work as a team is awful for public play. it causes an even bigger divide between the strong and weak side and it's even less fun to play when your team sucks.
i don't like it because i know i'll spend a lot of time stuck on 100 hp getting insta-killed by a skulk one-two punch.
It required Tres, which was arguably more important, as that single resource bought everything for the team. You also had to deal with focus in NS1 which could 1 hit a marine without armor, making it even more important to have full armor.
You forget that NS2 by its very nature is a game where one team DOES NOT GET what the other team does. Asymmetrical gameplay. Saying 'but the Kharaa can do X, so Marines should too!' just makes you look... foolish, as that's the idea, bud.
Yeah, lets see how you like it when your marine team is constantly spending p.res on welders to heal each other.... afterall you are going to lose a lot of welders from dying out on the field. Then your team won't have much overall p.res to spend buying stuff. If your team doesn't spend the p.res on them, the marines will just get massacred over and over.
I would be semi-okay with this change IF and only IF welders were free and didn't cost p.res.
Generally, my Marines stick together to the point there is almost always someone to grab the dropped weapons. Unless they end up entirely wiped out. At which point they deserve to lose those res. Even giving the CHANCE for someone to make a mad dash (well, more of a quick amble) toward the point is outright almost overly-generous. I mean, it's not like another Kharaa can pick up an expensive lifeform from a dead teammate. Most of which cost SIGNIFICANTLY more than the Marine weaponry does, but are being balanced against the SAME damage/death scale at the moment.
Suck it up. Learn to love your LMG. And know who in your squad is carrying the welder. Because before long? Hopefully you're going to need it.
invTempestJoin Date: 2003-03-02Member: 14223Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2013
There is a bug in the mod that is preventing players from spawning. Not sure exactly what causes it but until its fixed we really can't test it in a full game.
Generally, my Marines stick together to the point there is almost always someone to grab the dropped weapons. Unless they end up entirely wiped out. At which point they deserve to lose those res. Even giving the CHANCE for someone to make a mad dash (well, more of a quick amble) toward the point is outright almost overly-generous. I mean, it's not like another Kharaa can pick up an expensive lifeform from a dead teammate. Most of which cost SIGNIFICANTLY more than the Marine weaponry does, but are being balanced against the SAME damage/death scale at the moment.
Suck it up. Learn to love your LMG. And know who in your squad is carrying the welder. Because before long? Hopefully you're going to need it.
you pulled the 'asymmetry' card minutes ago, please stop saying marines should not have something different because it's different.
if aliens and marines are balanced right now, how are you not concerned about such a significant change like complete dependency on welding teammates?
sure, i'm all for trying it on a balance mod - but i think there's enough emphasis on teamplay and don't see the appeal in being forced to inconveniently weld everyone 24/7.
Just have Advanced Armories repair armor. Gives them a reason to exist in bases other than the main, and lets you keep the teamwork. 30 resources for in the field repair doesn't sound too horrible.
The marine commander could probably compensate with a Robotics Factory and MACs in the lategame, but it would be an annoying hassle due to the amount of babysitting you would have to do for the MACs. Two features that would really benefit it are:
1. Guard Area - the commander sees a ring with the maximum range (should be about as big as an average marine start, i.e. diameter should be 2/3 of the width of Veil's marine start) and can place the ring as waypoint for the MAC. The MAC will weld everything inside this ring but always return to it's centre once everything has been welded and never leave the ring to follow a player outside of it (which is probably the #1 cause of MACs getting killed).
2. Guard Object - the MAC gets assigned to a specific player or structure and will follow it constantly around until it's destroyed. This structure will get priority for welding from the MAC (if there are multiple damaged things around, the MAC will always weld it's assignment first). If it's at full health, the MAC will start welding stuff in very close proximity to it's assignment but will stop doing that as soon as it's assignment moves further away so that the MAC has to catch up.
The marine commander could probably compensate with a Robotics Factory and MACs in the lategame, but it would be an annoying hassle due to the amount of babysitting you would have to do for the MACs. Two features that would really benefit it are:
1. Guard Area - the commander sees a ring with the maximum range (should be about as big as an average marine start, i.e. diameter should be 2/3 of the width of Veil's marine start) and can place the ring as waypoint for the MAC. The MAC will weld everything inside this ring but always return to it's centre once everything has been welded and never leave the ring to follow a player outside of it (which is probably the #1 cause of MACs getting killed).
2. Guard Object - the MAC gets assigned to a specific player or structure and will follow it constantly around until it's destroyed. This structure will get priority for welding from the MAC (if there are multiple damaged things around, the MAC will always weld it's assignment first). If it's at full health, the MAC will start welding stuff in very close proximity to it's assignment but will stop doing that as soon as it's assignment moves further away so that the MAC has to catch up.
I would love to see #2 put into the game. I hate babysitting MACs.
This is some seriously exciting stuff, I don't think Ive ever been this excited about potential changes.
In regards to the biomass system, could that mean that some upgrades are going on first hive? I.e that we may see a lot more strategic variety on 1 hive play even, while also lowering the overimportance of the second hive in general? Sounds like it could add A LOT to the alien commander.
I think you should also seriously consider untying shades, crags and shift from hive choices to really ramp up the comm's early game choices and potential strats. Hive upgrades would still be important to get shells,spurs and veils for alien upgrades as well as for things like drifter abilities.
In regards to welders, I think UWE should have them lowered in p.res cost, I always found 5 to be a pretty steep price for an upgrade like this, especially if armories will no longer heal armor.
Lastly, PLEASE look at alien late-game tech, things like xeno, vortex, etc really need some love.
Just have Advanced Armories repair armor. Gives them a reason to exist in bases other than the main, and lets you keep the teamwork. 30 resources for in the field repair doesn't sound too horrible.
I remember the beta build where armor healing was removed from armories. I still have wonderful dreams every night about it.
Here is the cold hard truth: Aliens have no damage scaling. You can either balance their damage around marines always having full armor or you can make it more interesting and balance around a variable armor level. We currently have a mix of the two. Marines with armories effectively have full armor 24/7 which grows the more upgrades they have. This means the aliens have to work harder and harder as the game goes on. Now, let me state this clearly: This is not a petition for damage scaling for aliens. That's lame and unfun. The alien team should be able to wear down a position and eventually take it with enough pressure and skill. Armories as they are create turtles and stalemates.
If you want an example of just how ridiculous armory healing is take a look at the match from the NSL invitational with Nexzil v Saunamen on Tram. Garfu was humping the hell out of an armory and solo held logistics against multiple waves of skulks, a lerk and fades. It was unreal (and great play by garfu) but really displays exactly what is wrong with armory healing. It is too much. If you want that kind of thing out of an advanced armory, hey I am cool with that, but the base 10 res armory is FAR too powerful.
edit: I should point out I am not really talking about the point when garfu gets nanoshielded (which is another problem entirely), but more the time all around it where he could heal up to full and start every alien push at full or close to it.
double edit: added the mention of fades to stroke garfu's ego.
Aside: Cool mod Sewlek, I am looking forward to giving it a go here in a moment.
Comments
I especially like the armory not repairing armor. It will have people buying welders significantly more often, and require a choice between attacking/defending actively, and going into a 'repair cycle' with a good portion of the team defending at a time while those with welders fix everyone's armor up. Also helps to balance out the benefit of on-spawn instant increased armor for the base unit (which is still a major problem, IMO, granting Marines a significant advantage when it comes to turtling/endgame/saving a base that is under attack).
Sure, you'll have Rambos complaining about it. Good. They deserve it.
Honestly with a lot of the changes, it looks like it's moving in the direction of making the Khamm more and more superfluous... which IMO is a good thing. Give the Gorges the build menu back, rely on them to drop RTs/cysts, have abilities automatically unlock as each level of TRes is reached. It'd also help to cut down on rushing to three-hives ASAP, as it would slow down the pace at which items/abilities unlocked. Include a team vote-system as the first upgrade building is maturing, to decide what tree to go for first (eliminating the NS1 trollgorge problem).
You forgot that Aliens regen health and ARMOR innately. You forgot that Aliens can heal armor at crags/hives. With this change, marines would require teammates with a welder or a mac.... that's it....
I'm curious as to what these better alternatives are? As of now in this balance mod, there is only requiring teammate to spend res and heal you or requiring comm to build a MAC station. Just like Aliens, there should be a way a Marine can self heal his armor when at a base without requiring other players to be there or forcing the comm to make sure he has macs down at all bases.
But aliens have regeneration as an option. They have passive healing as well even though it is slow. They also have crags and hives to heal their hp and armor back up. They do not need to rely on Gorges/teammates alone. If you say get a jetpack/shotgun and lost it all by a single fade/any alien attack because your teammates refuse to weld or spend 5 pres/do not have pres to spend ten it will become frustrating. But you know what I want it to happen. Just to see how the community responds to it as a whole.
You forget that NS2 by its very nature is a game where one team DOES NOT GET what the other team does. Asymmetrical gameplay. Saying 'but the Kharaa can do X, so Marines should too!' just makes you look... foolish, as that's the idea, bud.
Make it require a retreat to a Hive, Crag, Gorge or the use of the Regeneration ability. But no default armor regeneration without anything inducing it.
Suggestion: Make spores do little to no damage to those with full armor, and alot of damage, to those with no armor? So like, damaged visor or somefink?
I considered stating this but knew the response I would get would be "Asymmetry."
crag can be placed anywhere on infestation. not to mention passive regen on/off infestation.
fact is that marines are designed to need a babysitter for the medkit spam, which inevitably means that marines are designed to take a pummeling, which inevitably means that marines end up with no/low armour very often.
you could compare that to skulk having low hp, but marine could have 35-50pres invested in gear. therefore it would be more accurate to compare it to a fade being unable to regen past 100hp unless he can find a gorge to heal him back to maximum. indeed, ridiculous.
I've never liked the change in ns2, marines can hump an armory and back up to full health/armour in no time when aliens should be the regenerative ones.
Glad to see it's at least being considered in the balance mod :]
Yeah, lets see how you like it when your marine team is constantly spending p.res on welders to heal each other.... afterall you are going to lose a lot of welders from dying out on the field. Then your team won't have much overall p.res to spend buying stuff. If your team doesn't spend the p.res on them, the marines will just get massacred over and over.
I would be semi-okay with this change IF and only IF welders were free and didn't cost p.res.
Crags are not removed and neither are Armories, they are just serving their intended purpose now. Skulks are getting owned without Babbler armor/Gorge heals/Carapace so expect people to start using the same tactics as welding to actually keep each other alive. It's just what the smart players will do.
Passive regen is a moot point, Medpacks and Gorges are much stronger as they are near-instant.
If you die a lot with a Welder it is the same as dieing a lot as a Gorge. Personal investment rather than Armory spam.
(Though I haven't factored in how much the removal of "No res while dead" will affect the Pres of most marines.)
^^ this.
doesn't the act of being forced to weld teammates have an air of symmetry to the gorge?
enticing players to work as a team is one thing, but FORCING players to work as a team is awful for public play. it causes an even bigger divide between the strong and weak side and it's even less fun to play when your team sucks.
i don't like it because i know i'll spend a lot of time stuck on 100 hp getting insta-killed by a skulk one-two punch.
Generally, my Marines stick together to the point there is almost always someone to grab the dropped weapons. Unless they end up entirely wiped out. At which point they deserve to lose those res. Even giving the CHANCE for someone to make a mad dash (well, more of a quick amble) toward the point is outright almost overly-generous. I mean, it's not like another Kharaa can pick up an expensive lifeform from a dead teammate. Most of which cost SIGNIFICANTLY more than the Marine weaponry does, but are being balanced against the SAME damage/death scale at the moment.
Suck it up. Learn to love your LMG. And know who in your squad is carrying the welder. Because before long? Hopefully you're going to need it.
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{x=0, y=0, z=0 }, startCameraDistance=0, startCameraPosition=Vector {x=0, y=0, z=0 }, startCameraYOffset=0, stepAmount=0, stepStartTime=0, syncHealth=false, teamNumber=2, teamResources=11, techId=1, timeLastHealed=0, timeLastMenu=0, timeOfLastUse=0, timeOfLastWeaponSwitch=0, transitionDuration=0, transitionStart=0, tweeningFunction=1, upgrade1=1, upgrade2=1, upgrade3=1, upgrade4=1, upgrade5=1, upgrade6=1, velocity=Vector {x=0, y=0, z=0 }, velocityLength=0, velocityPitch=0, velocityYaw=0, viewModelId=828, viewPitch=0.082548603415489, viewRoll=0, viewYaw=0.15167467296124, weaponsWeight=0 } enemyTeamPosition = Vector {x=-88.440414428711, y=-1.5139999389648, z=48.74910736084 } success = false shifts = {1=Shift-1409 {alive=true, animationBlend=0, animationGraphIndex=24, animationGraphNode=0, animationSequence2=-1, animationSequence=0, animationSpeed2=1, animationSpeed=1, animationStart2=0, animationStart=474.24053955078, armor=24.850954055786, buildFraction=0.28145590424538, cloakRate=0, cloakingDesired=false, collisionRep=0, constructionComplete=false, cragInRange=false, detected=false, dragsUmbra=false, echoActive=false, eggInRange=false, flinchIntensity=0, fullyCloaked=false, gameEffectsFlags=64, health=248.50964355469, healthIgnored=false, hiveInRange=false, hotGroupNumber=0, hydraInRange=false, inCombat=false, isCatalysted=false, isMature=false, isOnFire=false, isTeleporting=false, lastTakenDamageAmount=0, lastTakenDamageOrigin=Vector {x=0, y=0, z=0 }, lastTakenDamageTime=0, lastTargetId=-1, layer1AnimationBlend=0, layer1AnimationGraphNode=-1, layer1AnimationSequence2=-1, layer1AnimationSequence=-1, layer1AnimationSpeed2=1, layer1AnimationSpeed=1, layer1AnimationStart2=0, layer1AnimationStart=0, locationId=2, maxArmor=50, maxHealth=500, modelIndex=37, numStacks=0, physicsGroup=3, physicsGroupFilterMask=0, physicsType=4, researchProgress=0, researchingId=1, selectionMask=2, shadeInRange=false, shellInRange=false, shiftInRange=true, sighted=false, spurInRange=false, syncHealth=true, teamNumber=2, techId=250, teleportDelay=0, timeLastHealed=0, umbraBulletCount=0, underConstruction=false, upgrade1=1, upgrade2=1, upgrade3=1, upgrade4=1, upgrade5=1, upgrade6=1, veilInRange=false, visibleClient=false, whipInRange=false } } (for generator) = function (for state) = {1=Shift-1409 {alive=true, animationBlend=0, animationGraphIndex=24, animationGraphNode=0, animationSequence2=-1, animationSequence=0, animationSpeed2=1, animationSpeed=1, animationStart2=0, animationStart=474.24053955078, armor=24.850954055786, buildFraction=0.28145590424538, cloakRate=0, cloakingDesired=false, collisionRep=0, constructionComplete=false, cragInRange=false, detected=false, dragsUmbra=false, echoActive=false, eggInRange=false, flinchIntensity=0, fullyCloaked=false, gameEffectsFlags=64, health=248.50964355469, healthIgnored=false, hiveInRange=false, hotGroupNumber=0, hydraInRange=false, inCombat=false, isCatalysted=false, isMature=false, isOnFire=false, isTeleporting=false, lastTakenDamageAmount=0, lastTakenDamageOrigin=Vector {x=0, y=0, z=0 }, lastTakenDamageTime=0, lastTargetId=-1, layer1AnimationBlend=0, layer1AnimationGraphNode=-1, layer1AnimationSequence2=-1, layer1AnimationSequence=-1, layer1AnimationSpeed2=1, layer1AnimationSpeed=1, layer1AnimationStart2=0, layer1AnimationStart=0, locationId=2, maxArmor=50, maxHealth=500, modelIndex=37, numStacks=0, physicsGroup=3, physicsGroupFilterMask=0, physicsType=4, researchProgress=0, researchingId=1, selectionMask=2, shadeInRange=false, shellInRange=false, shiftInRange=true, sighted=false, spurInRange=false, syncHealth=true, teamNumber=2, techId=250, teleportDelay=0, timeLastHealed=0, umbraBulletCount=0, underConstruction=false, upgrade1=1, upgrade2=1, upgrade3=1, upgrade4=1, upgrade5=1, upgrade6=1, veilInRange=false, visibleClient=false, whipInRange=false } } (for control) = 1 _ = 1 shift = Shift-1409 {alive=true, animationBlend=0, animationGraphIndex=24, animationGraphNode=0, animationSequence2=-1, animationSequence=0, animationSpeed2=1, animationSpeed=1, animationStart2=0, animationStart=474.24053955078, armor=24.850954055786, buildFraction=0.28145590424538, cloakRate=0, cloakingDesired=false, collisionRep=0, constructionComplete=false, cragInRange=false, detected=false, dragsUmbra=false, echoActive=false, eggInRange=false, flinchIntensity=0, fullyCloaked=false, gameEffectsFlags=64, health=248.50964355469, healthIgnored=false, hiveInRange=false, hotGroupNumber=0, hydraInRange=false, inCombat=false, isCatalysted=false, isMature=false, isOnFire=false, isTeleporting=false, lastTakenDamageAmount=0, lastTakenDamageOrigin=Vector {x=0, y=0, z=0 }, lastTakenDamageTime=0, lastTargetId=-1, layer1AnimationBlend=0, layer1AnimationGraphNode=-1, layer1AnimationSequence2=-1, layer1AnimationSequence=-1, layer1AnimationSpeed2=1, layer1AnimationSpeed=1, layer1AnimationStart2=0, layer1AnimationStart=0, locationId=2, maxArmor=50, maxHealth=500, modelIndex=37, numStacks=0, physicsGroup=3, physicsGroupFilterMask=0, physicsType=4, researchProgress=0, researchingId=1, selectionMask=2, shadeInRange=false, shellInRange=false, shiftInRange=true, sighted=false, spurInRange=false, syncHealth=true, teamNumber=2, techId=250, teleportDelay=0, timeLastHealed=0, umbraBulletCount=0, underConstruction=false, upgrade1=1, upgrade2=1, upgrade3=1, upgrade4=1, upgrade5=1, upgrade6=1, veilInRange=false, visibleClient=false, whipInRange=false } #2: UpdateAlienSpectators lua/AlienTeam.lua:459 self = AlienTeam { } alienSpectators = {1=AlienSpectator-100 {activeWeaponId=-1, alive=false, animateAngles=false, animateDistance=false, animatePosition=false, animateYOffset=false, animationBlend=0, animationGraphIndex=0, animationGraphNode=-1, animationSequence2=-1, animationSequence=-1, animationSpeed2=0, animationSpeed=1, animationStart2=0, animationStart=0, armor=0, autoSpawnTime=0, baseYaw=0, bodyYaw=0, bodyYawRun=0, cameraDistance=0, clientIndex=8, collisionRep=0, communicationStatus=1, countingDown=false, currentBadge=1, darwinMode=false, desiredCameraAngles=Vector {x=0, y=0, z=0 }, desiredCameraDistance=0, desiredCameraPosition=Vector {x=0, y=0, z=0 }, desiredCameraYOffset=0, eggId=-1, flinchIntensity=0, followMoveEnabled=false, followedTargetId=-1, followingTransition=false, fov=90, freeLookMoveEnabled=false, frozen=false, fullPrecisionOrigin=Vector {x=-19.154985427856, y=-2.9085505008698, z=-7.176577091217 }, gameEffectsFlags=0, gameStarted=true, giveDamageTime=0, gravityEnabled=true, health=100, healthIgnored=false, imposedTargetId=-1, isMoveBlocked=false, isUsing=false, layer1AnimationBlend=0, layer1AnimationGraphNode=-1, layer1AnimationSequence2=0, layer1AnimationSequence=-1, layer1AnimationSpeed2=0, layer1AnimationSpeed=1, layer1AnimationStart2=0, layer1AnimationStart=0, locationId=4, maxArmor=0, maxHealth=100, mode=1, modeTime=-1, modelIndex=0, moveButtonPressed=false, moveTransition=false, onLadder=false, overheadMoveEnabled=false, physicsGroup=7, physicsGroupFilterMask=0, physicsType=1, primaryAttackLastFrame=false, processMove=true, pushImpulse=Vector {x=0, y=0, z=0 }, pushTime=0, queuePosition=1, resetMouse=0, resources=39.625, runningBodyYaw=0, secondaryAttackLastFrame=false, selectedId=-1, sighted=false, slowAmount=0, specMode=4, standingBodyYaw=0.26298588514328, startCameraAngles=Vector {x=0, y=0, z=0 }, startCameraDistance=0, startCameraPosition=Vector {x=0, y=0, z=0 }, startCameraYOffset=0, stepAmount=0, stepStartTime=0, syncHealth=false, teamNumber=2, teamResources=11, techId=1, timeLastHealed=0, timeLastMenu=0, timeOfLastUse=0... } enemyTeamPosition = Vector {x=-88.440414428711, y=-1.5139999389648, z=48.74910736084 } (for index) = 1 (for limit) = 1 (for step) = 1 i = 1 alienSpectator = AlienSpectator-100 {activeWeaponId=-1, alive=false, animateAngles=false, animateDistance=false, animatePosition=false, animateYOffset=false, animationBlend=0, animationGraphIndex=0, animationGraphNode=-1, animationSequence2=-1, animationSequence=-1, animationSpeed2=0, animationSpeed=1, animationStart2=0, animationStart=0, armor=0, autoSpawnTime=0, baseYaw=0, bodyYaw=0, bodyYawRun=0, cameraDistance=0, clientIndex=8, collisionRep=0, communicationStatus=1, countingDown=false, currentBadge=1, darwinMode=false, desiredCameraAngles=Vector {x=0, y=0, z=0 }, desiredCameraDistance=0, desiredCameraPosition=Vector {x=0, y=0, z=0 }, desiredCameraYOffset=0, eggId=-1, flinchIntensity=0, followMoveEnabled=false, followedTargetId=-1, followingTransition=false, fov=90, freeLookMoveEnabled=false, frozen=false, fullPrecisionOrigin=Vector {x=-19.154985427856, y=-2.9085505008698, z=-7.176577091217 }, gameEffectsFlags=0, gameStarted=true, giveDamageTime=0, gravityEnabled=true, health=100, healthIgnored=false, imposedTargetId=-1, isMoveBlocked=false, isUsing=false, layer1AnimationBlend=0, layer1AnimationGraphNode=-1, layer1AnimationSequence2=0, layer1AnimationSequence=-1, layer1AnimationSpeed2=0, layer1AnimationSpeed=1, layer1AnimationStart2=0, layer1AnimationStart=0, locationId=4, maxArmor=0, maxHealth=100, mode=1, modeTime=-1, modelIndex=0, moveButtonPressed=false, moveTransition=false, onLadder=false, overheadMoveEnabled=false, physicsGroup=7, physicsGroupFilterMask=0, physicsType=1, primaryAttackLastFrame=false, processMove=true, pushImpulse=Vector {x=0, y=0, z=0 }, pushTime=0, queuePosition=1, resetMouse=0, resources=39.625, runningBodyYaw=0, secondaryAttackLastFrame=false, selectedId=-1, sighted=false, slowAmount=0, specMode=4, standingBodyYaw=0.26298588514328, startCameraAngles=Vector {x=0, y=0, z=0 }, startCameraDistance=0, startCameraPosition=Vector {x=0, y=0, z=0 }, startCameraYOffset=0, stepAmount=0, stepStartTime=0, syncHealth=false, teamNumber=2, teamResources=11, techId=1, timeLastHealed=0, timeLastMenu=0, timeOfLastUse=0, timeOfLastWeaponSwitch=0, transitionDuration=0, transitionStart=0, tweeningFunction=1, upgrade1=1, upgrade2=1, upgrade3=1, upgrade4=1, upgrade5=1, upgrade6=1, velocity=Vector {x=0, y=0, z=0 }, velocityLength=0, velocityPitch=0, velocityYaw=0, viewModelId=828, viewPitch=0.082548603415489, viewRoll=0, viewYaw=0.15167467296124, weaponsWeight=0 } egg = nil #3: Update lua/AlienTeam.lua:495 self = AlienTeam { } timePassed = 0.032935284078121 shellLevel = 0 #4: lua/NS2Gamerules.lua:942 self = NS2Gamerules-1468 { } timePassed = 0.032935284078121The full log file can be downloaded here: http://ns2servers.com/uploads/log-2.zip
you pulled the 'asymmetry' card minutes ago, please stop saying marines should not have something different because it's different.
if aliens and marines are balanced right now, how are you not concerned about such a significant change like complete dependency on welding teammates?
sure, i'm all for trying it on a balance mod - but i think there's enough emphasis on teamplay and don't see the appeal in being forced to inconveniently weld everyone 24/7.
I guess I missed the part where medpacks cost pres.
hence the reason why we aren't literally swimming around in med and ammo packs :P
1. Guard Area - the commander sees a ring with the maximum range (should be about as big as an average marine start, i.e. diameter should be 2/3 of the width of Veil's marine start) and can place the ring as waypoint for the MAC. The MAC will weld everything inside this ring but always return to it's centre once everything has been welded and never leave the ring to follow a player outside of it (which is probably the #1 cause of MACs getting killed).
2. Guard Object - the MAC gets assigned to a specific player or structure and will follow it constantly around until it's destroyed. This structure will get priority for welding from the MAC (if there are multiple damaged things around, the MAC will always weld it's assignment first). If it's at full health, the MAC will start welding stuff in very close proximity to it's assignment but will stop doing that as soon as it's assignment moves further away so that the MAC has to catch up.
connect inv.ns2servers.com
I would love to see #2 put into the game. I hate babysitting MACs.
In regards to the biomass system, could that mean that some upgrades are going on first hive? I.e that we may see a lot more strategic variety on 1 hive play even, while also lowering the overimportance of the second hive in general? Sounds like it could add A LOT to the alien commander.
I think you should also seriously consider untying shades, crags and shift from hive choices to really ramp up the comm's early game choices and potential strats. Hive upgrades would still be important to get shells,spurs and veils for alien upgrades as well as for things like drifter abilities.
In regards to welders, I think UWE should have them lowered in p.res cost, I always found 5 to be a pretty steep price for an upgrade like this, especially if armories will no longer heal armor.
Lastly, PLEASE look at alien late-game tech, things like xeno, vortex, etc really need some love.
Great idea.
Here is the cold hard truth: Aliens have no damage scaling. You can either balance their damage around marines always having full armor or you can make it more interesting and balance around a variable armor level. We currently have a mix of the two. Marines with armories effectively have full armor 24/7 which grows the more upgrades they have. This means the aliens have to work harder and harder as the game goes on. Now, let me state this clearly: This is not a petition for damage scaling for aliens. That's lame and unfun. The alien team should be able to wear down a position and eventually take it with enough pressure and skill. Armories as they are create turtles and stalemates.
If you want an example of just how ridiculous armory healing is take a look at the match from the NSL invitational with Nexzil v Saunamen on Tram. Garfu was humping the hell out of an armory and solo held logistics against multiple waves of skulks, a lerk and fades. It was unreal (and great play by garfu) but really displays exactly what is wrong with armory healing. It is too much. If you want that kind of thing out of an advanced armory, hey I am cool with that, but the base 10 res armory is FAR too powerful.
edit: I should point out I am not really talking about the point when garfu gets nanoshielded (which is another problem entirely), but more the time all around it where he could heal up to full and start every alien push at full or close to it.
double edit: added the mention of fades to stroke garfu's ego.
Aside: Cool mod Sewlek, I am looking forward to giving it a go here in a moment.