I'm sure some will read that as elitism or some other bullshit, because they perceive it as a slight against their person. I don't care, I'm tired of being questioned by people who have little to no real experience with what they're talking about, clogging up any and all real progress in the discussion.
Nothing stimulates discussion like the good ol' "STFU you're wrong Im right."
Can someone explain to me why aliens need phase gates gorge tunnels? What happened to asymmetry? More importantly, what happened to aliens being the faster team *because* they didn't have any 'teleportation' abilities?
While it looks nice, I just don't understand the justification for giving aliens a means to move around the map even FASTER than they can now. Seriously, does anyone want to take a shot at justifying the change? Why did the faster team in an asymmetric game need to get 'alien phase gates' so they can move around even faster?
Phase Gates are instantaneous. These are not. You physically need to walk down the connecting tunnel.
You can have more than 2 connected Phase Gates. You are limited to two entrances/exits per Gorge Tunnel.
Only Marines can use Phase Gates. Both Marines and Aliens can use Gorge Tunnels.
Exos cannot use Phase Gates. They can use Gorge Tunnels
Combat can happen in the tunnels. A good Marine could camp their end and stop it being used.
Oh yeah I see what you mean... it's really not asymmetrical at all, is it?
ffs...
None of those are really important to the metagame(if thats the right term), as far as it is concerned the two are very similar.
Also I assume gorges can destroy the entrances/exits to their own tunnels? If so what happens to the people inside?
misreading what Savant wrote. "The aliens are [designed to be] quicker because they [lack] teleportation technology." is probably a lot closer to what he meant.
Can someone explain to me why aliens need phase gates gorge tunnels? What happened to asymmetry? More importantly, what happened to aliens being the faster team *because* they didn't have any 'teleportation' abilities?
Phase Gates are instantaneous. These are not. You physically need to walk down the connecting tunnel.
Wow. So a really fast team has to walk down a short tunnel? If the walk down the tunnel actually was a hindrance, then it would defeat the entire purpose of having the tunnel now wouldn't it? Clearly the tunnel would shorten the distance being travelled or else no one would place it to begin with.
You can have more than 2 connected Phase Gates. You are limited to two entrances/exits per Gorge Tunnel.
I bolded the important bit here. The fact that each gorge can have a tunnel is probably a better mechanic than phase gates. At least they know exactly where they are going, and don't have to bounce through multiple gates to get to their destination.
Only Marines can use Phase Gates. Both Marines and Aliens can use Gorge Tunnels. Exos cannot use Phase Gates. They can use Gorge Tunnels
Gorge tunnels are SUPERIOR to phase gates precisely because you can push through as many Onos as you want, while the EXO - the slowest unit in the game - can't use phase gates. Regardless, it matters not that marines can enter the exit since it is the ATTACK that will do the damage. No gorge will make a tunnel and then leave it unused as a convenient way for marines to attack their base.
Combat can happen in the tunnels. A good Marine could camp their end and stop it being used.
I won't even address how silly this remark is.
Oh yeah I see what you mean... it's really not asymmetrical at all, is it?
No, it's not. There is very little difference between the two concepts. They are both methods to allow a team to skip across the map. Gorge tunnels are phase gates for aliens. Why sugar coat it?
They are an affront to asymmetry and balance in NS2 - plain and simple.
Furthermore, you know very well the main reason for that mechanic in NS1 was because the maps were much larger and skulks were slower. (Anyone who hasn't played NS1 - try creating your own server just to try a skulk. You'll think you're running in slow motion compared to how it is now.) In NS1 it took 30 seconds to move between hives. In NS2 it's half that.
No, this is untrue. Skulks were significantly faster in NS1.
Are you kidding? Please, go and PLAY NS1. If you have, please put on your glasses and do it again. Grab a skulk and watch as you run at a slow trot. If you read the early dev posts in the alpha, you can see how they talk about skulk speed being faster. This is what precipitated the need for marine sprint to deal with that. Or are you going to suggest that they made marines faster and skulks slower? (You're not going to do that, right?)
Go ahead. Make a game of NS2 and run around as a skulk. Then blow the dust off your NS1 copy, make a game and run around as a skulk. I defy ANYONE to say they're running around faster in NS1. (especially because engine limitations restricted speed.)
You do remember that the first incarnation of the skulk had parasite removed. The idea was that skulks were faster and "should be out scouting" as Charlie put it when they first did the skulk reveal. Although parasite was put back in, they only did that since they couldn't come up with a better replacement. The podcasts also talked about the skulk being faster. Go have a listen.
I'm sceptical as to whether or not one can know which skulk was definitively faster without some notion of scale.
Don't believe me, believe your eyes. Open up NS1, start a server and run around as skulk. The try a game of NS2 as skulk. Believe your eyes. If skulks are slower in NS2, then marines wouldn't have sprint. Think about it.
I'm sceptical as to whether or not one can know which skulk was definitively faster without some notion of scale.
Don't believe me, believe your eyes. Open up NS1, start a server and run around as skulk. The try a game of NS2 as skulk. Believe your eyes. If skulks are slower in NS2, then marines wouldn't have sprint. Think about it.
If I simply relied on my eyes, then I would begin the test with a preconception, and my brain would change what I see to suit it. That's why we have the scientific method.
if your running in a straight line as a skulk in NS1, your not testing it correctly. Judging from your posts you were not someone that could bunnyhop so I doubt you can even achieve 75% of the speed a skulk had. Go start your own game of NS1, turn on cheats using sv_cheats 1, then turn on speed debug using cl_showspeed 1. Post back what speed you can hit, and prove that you actually are even moving as a NS1 skulk, and not just walking.
Anyone that I have played with from NS2 that I have gotten to try NS1 had one comment the first time, generally something like holy **** the skulk is so small and fast.
Marines have sprint because the devs thought it was a good addition, not because skulks were faster. I already gave you direct speed comparisions showing that NS1 skulks were faster, what more does it take to prove it? Making a hybrid engine with a NS1 and NS2 skulk and a straight track to have a speed race???
Furthermore, you know very well the main reason for that mechanic in NS1 was because the maps were much larger and skulks were slower. (Anyone who hasn't played NS1 - try creating your own server just to try a skulk. You'll think you're running in slow motion compared to how it is now.) In NS1 it took 30 seconds to move between hives. In NS2 it's half that.
No, this is untrue. Skulks were significantly faster in NS1.
Are you kidding? Please, go and PLAY NS1. If you have, please put on your glasses and do it again. Grab a skulk and watch as you run at a slow trot. If you read the early dev posts in the alpha, you can see how they talk about skulk speed being faster. This is what precipitated the need for marine sprint to deal with that. Or are you going to suggest that they made marines faster and skulks slower? (You're not going to do that, right?)
Are you kidding? Please, go and PLAY NS1. If you have, please put on your glasses and do it again. Grab a skulk and watch as you run at a slow trot. If you read the early dev posts in the alpha, you can see how they talk about skulk speed being faster. This is what precipitated the need for marine sprint to deal with that. Or are you going to suggest that they made marines faster and skulks slower? (You're not going to do that, right?)
As to which is faster, I do not know.
However, as I said previously, I compared skulk vs marine speeds between NS1 and 2, and they are vastly different. Just timing practical speeds from one important room to the next, along the same path, aliens were 45% faster than marines in NS1, whereas they were only 15% faster in NS2 (with moderate use of both walljumping and bhopping). The speed difference between the two has not been kept consistent, so that probably can't be used as a baseline for extrapolating the relative speed of a skulk in each game.
All one needs to use is a bit of common sense though. We all know that skulks are faster than marines. Putting aside to what EXTENT they are faster, the reality is that skulks are faster than marines and always have been. The dispute was over the suggestion that skulks in NS1 were faster than in NS2.
So ask the question... If NS2 marines have been given sprint, do people honestly think they would make skulks *slower* in NS2 than in NS1? Does that make any sense at all? The reason aliens haven't had any teleportation was since they are the faster race. To what extent is irrelevant, they are faster than marines.
So it begs the question, why give the faster race a means to move across the map even faster?
I've read a lot of people who try and defend the change, but none of that actually JUSTIFIES the change.
Convince me. Seriously. I'm open to being convinced otherwise. What possible justification could there be to give the faster race a tool to move even faster? Why give the other race something that basically nullifies yet another asymmetrical aspect in the game? (just as happened with the khamm)
The same need that hopping between Hives achieved in NS1, but with more content and in a more dynamic fashion (yes, it can be used offensively, but dropping a Hive in a contested Hive room in NS1 had that effect too). What more can be said before the patch is actually out?
So you present more theories and arbitrary information to support your argument, instead of the COLD HARD facts that I provided. My point still stands as truth, feel free to try to actually PROVE me wrong, instead of just saying they couldnt have possibly done something without a single shred of evidence.
Saying that because marines have sprint aliens must be faster is like saying the onos needs to be massive because its expensive.
All one needs to use is a bit of common sense though. We all know that skulks are faster than marines. Putting aside to what EXTENT they are faster, the reality is that skulks are faster than marines and always have been. The dispute was over the suggestion that skulks in NS1 were faster than in NS2.
So ask the question... If NS2 marines have been given sprint, do people honestly think they would make skulks *slower* in NS2 than in NS1? Does that make any sense at all? The reason aliens haven't had any teleportation was since they are the faster race. To what extent is irrelevant, they are faster than marines.
So it begs the question, why give the faster race a means to move across the map even faster?
I've read a lot of people who try and defend the change, but none of that actually JUSTIFIES the change.
Convince me. Seriously. I'm open to being convinced otherwise. What possible justification could there be to give the faster race a tool to move even faster? Why give the other race something that basically nullifies yet another asymmetrical aspect in the game? (just as happened with the khamm)
What need was this change addressing?
Marines with phase gates are 10-100 times faster than aliens. Try this strat on a pub:
1. Get a gate up outside of starting hive... sit there with mines and a few marines.
2. Get a gate up outside building hive.
3. beacon and rush building hive.
4. Alien team is forced to respond. They have to send most of their team or the hive dies.
5. When aliens arrive. Beacon and rush the other hive.
6. repeat step 5 until one of the hives dies, or the aliens rage quit.
right now this strat doesn't work very well because marines struggle to do anything, let alone get 2 gates up outside hives at the same time.
If you get both gates up with mines on them, this strategy is basically uncounterable.
Aliens have faster movement speed, but they are much slower than marines with phase gate.
Marines with phase gates are 10-100 times faster than aliens. Try this strat on a pub:
1. Get a gate up outside of starting hive... sit there with mines and a few marines.
Let me stop you there. While this may be a good be reason why one considers phase gates to be overpowered, it still doesn't justify alien phase gates. An alien phase gate wouldn't help in this instance.
The same need that hopping between Hives achieved in NS1
Here's the thing though... Let's put aside the issue of this not being *just* a hive to hive thing. (which would have been better suited) Aliens in NS2 shouldn't need the hopping between hives thing since the maps are dramatically smaller, and the aliens move fast.
Had maps been *bigger*, yeah that could be a justification for it. One could suggest alien speed was insufficient to get to the hives and such. But with tighter maps, this only gives the race superior mobility even BETTER mobility.
Yeah I know we will have to see it work to fully appreciate the change, but I still don't see any justification for it in principle. No one seems to be able to tell me why aliens NEED phase gates.
-It's not because they are the slower race, since they are not
-It's not because the maps are too large, since they are smaller than NS1
-It's not because they are losing more often, since they are not
So what is it? What's the justification for why aliens need phase gates? Seriously, I'm open-minded on this, give me some solid logical reasons and I'll be happy to acknowledge them.
So ask the question... If NS2 marines have been given sprint, do people honestly think they would make skulks *slower* in NS2 than in NS1? Does that make any sense at all?
If the map doesn't correspond to the terrain, the terrain must be wrong, right?
well, tbh, it isn't really a phase gate.... marines can use it too... hell, exos can come through... could easily make a gorge (if it's not the khamms ability) drop it, die, then have marines rush through... it's kinda a double-edged sword... the pg has no drawback (some lag between phasing and camping the pg aside... even though u could probably camp these new alien buttholes).
I see one of the effects of Gorge tunnels is it will open up first upgrade choice a bit more by reducing the over dependency on shifts. A common strategy right now is to place a shift just outside a marine base to assault it or next to a building hive to defend it. Or alternatively just in the middle of the map for general map control. I think it is for this reason most games end up with Aliens going shift hive first.
With Aliens now getting Gorge tunnels to perform a similar function it will encourage alternative upgrade choices and more variety in games.
Instead of making up irrelevant parallels, why not try and give me an answer. So far no one has been able to do so.
You want us to tell you why the devs made the skulk slower and the marine faster in ns2 compared to ns1? Sure, I'll just reach into my bag to find my mind reading device. This entire situation is so surreal, I even went and got some numbers, which is something I was originally not going to waste my time on.
The easiest way to compare the relative speeds, is to run the same route on both games' version of veil. The route I chose was marine start to subsector (from the middle of marine start to the middle of the hive location/tech point). Comparing the size of both maps (easy enough, just resize minimaps to be the same size, align them over each other and make the top one 50% opacity), the distance traveled is actually greater on ns_veil than ns2_veil. Apart from the slightly shorter distance traveled on ns2_veil, the routes are functionally identical.
ns2_veil only holding w: 24 seconds.
ns2_veil walljumping: 20 seconds.
ns_veil only holding w: 21 seconds.
ns_veil bunnyhopping: 15 seconds.
xDragon's approach of converting maps to spark would be more accurate, but this is sufficient.
Instead of making up irrelevant parallels, why not try and give me an answer. So far no one has been able to do so.
You want us to tell you why the devs made the skulk slower and the marine faster in ns2 compared to ns1?
No... (sigh)
The point I have made repeatedly is about the gorge tunnels. No one seems to be able to tell me why aliens NEED phase gates.
-It's not because they are the slower race, since they are not
-It's not because the maps are too large, since they are smaller than NS1
-It's not because they are losing more often, since they are not
So what is it? What's the justification for why aliens need phase gates? Seriously, I'm open-minded on this, give me some solid logical reasons and I'll be happy to acknowledge them.
So what is it? What's the justification for why aliens need phase gates? Seriously, I'm open-minded on this, give me some solid logical reasons and I'll be happy to acknowledge them.
Hey Savant, I don't think it is so much that they 'need' Gorge tunnels but it adds extra strategy and gameplay elements to the game. Having the Gorge tunnels as an option for quick attack/defend scenarios will reduce Aliens dependency on Shift upgrade first. This will result in more varied games which in turn will lead to less players leaving due to boredom.
The maps are not too large but sometimes the travel times between hives can still be significant. Consider the scenario where on Veil, Aliens start in Sub-Sector and Marines first move is to take and secure Cargo. So assuming Aliens cannot clear Cargo their next move would be to go for Pipeline. Now this is very hard to do without Shifts as Aliens have to run across the entire map to defend it. A Gorge tunnel between Sub-Sector and Pipeline in this scenario would be very helpful.
I don't think it is so much that they 'need' Gorge tunnels but it adds extra strategy and gameplay elements to the game. Having the Gorge tunnels as an option for quick attack/defend scenarios will reduce Aliens dependency on Shift upgrade first. This will result in more varied games
You know what? I don't disagree with any of that. Seriously. I'm all for adding extra strategy and gameplay elements. I just wonder, out of all the things that could have been done, why they decided on alien phase gates. It's a massive buff to alien movement, especially when Onos can use it and EXO can't use phase gates.
You mention the dependence on shift? OK, here's a thought - uncouple it from the hive. Rename the shift hive to spur hive. Since there is a limit to the number of eggs you can pump out at a shift, it's a variable that is easily balanced. (cost for the eggs, cooldown, number of eggs - all can be tweaked if necessary) Give the new hive another chamber to replace it. Problem solved?
I would even consider putting these tunnels on the 'spur hive' in place of the shift. So no tunnels by default, but only if you develop that particular hive. Give them a cost to research as well. How about that? It would even fit the hive since celerity is on the hive, so it ties in with the 'speed' aspect.
Unless these tunnels are going to be tied to having 3 hives up, this is going to be a big buff for aliens; and frankly they're not the ones that need that right now.
However, in the end, I still am disappointed at how asymmetry is being chipped away at piece by piece. First the Khamm, now phase gates, and they've even considered mimicking the marine spawn system.
What's funny is that the people who are the first to say "asymmetry!", in response to someone asking why X team has something but Y team doesn't, are strangely quiet right now.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2013
Gorge tunnels don't automatically make the game less asymmetrical Savant. They have a similar end function, but work entirely different. The same goes for the Hive Mind, it is completely different from how the Commander works, they are far from symmetrical. Where one is not actively involved and the other is heavily involved with the players on the ground.
Just because the Hive mind is floating in the Sky and is of course faster to scale the map compared to the NS Gorge, doesn't mean the tasks have changed much from NS and the Gorge. The aliens still have an entirely different upgrade system based on classes and abilities versus weapons and straight up armour+damage upgrades... The only thing that is different is the fact that Gorges aren't needed and forced to place an RT on the map now and this is part of causing some issues with the overflow of resources...
Instead of making up irrelevant parallels, why not try and give me an answer. So far no one has been able to do so.
You want us to tell you why the devs made the skulk slower and the marine faster in ns2 compared to ns1?
No... (sigh)
The point I have made repeatedly is about the gorge tunnels. No one seems to be able to tell me why aliens NEED phase gates.
-It's not because they are the slower race, since they are not
-It's not because the maps are too large, since they are smaller than NS1
-It's not because they are losing more often, since they are not
So what is it? What's the justification for why aliens need phase gates? Seriously, I'm open-minded on this, give me some solid logical reasons and I'll be happy to acknowledge them.
There is no such thing as a NEEDED new feature. The game could never receive another patch again and it would still be playable. Adding gorge tunnels has the following advantages:
- Opens up more tactical possibilities for the alien team, thus adding variety to the game
- Reduces dependency on Shift upgrades/eggs to give aliens decent map control
- They're really cool
Now why don't you tell me why aliens SHOULD NOT get gorge tunnels? Balance isn't a strong argument because that can always be tweaked to accommodate new features.
All one needs to use is a bit of common sense though. We all know that skulks are faster than marines. Putting aside to what EXTENT they are faster, the reality is that skulks are faster than marines and always have been. The dispute was over the suggestion that skulks in NS1 were faster than in NS2.
So ask the question... If NS2 marines have been given sprint, do people honestly think they would make skulks *slower* in NS2 than in NS1? Does that make any sense at all? The reason aliens haven't had any teleportation was since they are the faster race. To what extent is irrelevant, they are faster than marines.
So it begs the question, why give the faster race a means to move across the map even faster?
I've read a lot of people who try and defend the change, but none of that actually JUSTIFIES the change.
Convince me. Seriously. I'm open to being convinced otherwise. What possible justification could there be to give the faster race a tool to move even faster? Why give the other race something that basically nullifies yet another asymmetrical aspect in the game? (just as happened with the khamm)
What need was this change addressing?
theres more to it than that though have to also consider the ease to hit a skulk the faster the skulk the harder it is to hit regardless of the marines movement speed.
Comments
None of those are really important to the metagame(if thats the right term), as far as it is concerned the two are very similar.
Also I assume gorges can destroy the entrances/exits to their own tunnels? If so what happens to the people inside?
Wow. So a really fast team has to walk down a short tunnel? If the walk down the tunnel actually was a hindrance, then it would defeat the entire purpose of having the tunnel now wouldn't it? Clearly the tunnel would shorten the distance being travelled or else no one would place it to begin with.
I bolded the important bit here. The fact that each gorge can have a tunnel is probably a better mechanic than phase gates. At least they know exactly where they are going, and don't have to bounce through multiple gates to get to their destination.
Gorge tunnels are SUPERIOR to phase gates precisely because you can push through as many Onos as you want, while the EXO - the slowest unit in the game - can't use phase gates. Regardless, it matters not that marines can enter the exit since it is the ATTACK that will do the damage. No gorge will make a tunnel and then leave it unused as a convenient way for marines to attack their base.
I won't even address how silly this remark is.
No, it's not. There is very little difference between the two concepts. They are both methods to allow a team to skip across the map. Gorge tunnels are phase gates for aliens. Why sugar coat it?
They are an affront to asymmetry and balance in NS2 - plain and simple. Are you kidding? Please, go and PLAY NS1. If you have, please put on your glasses and do it again. Grab a skulk and watch as you run at a slow trot. If you read the early dev posts in the alpha, you can see how they talk about skulk speed being faster. This is what precipitated the need for marine sprint to deal with that. Or are you going to suggest that they made marines faster and skulks slower? (You're not going to do that, right?)
Go ahead. Make a game of NS2 and run around as a skulk. Then blow the dust off your NS1 copy, make a game and run around as a skulk. I defy ANYONE to say they're running around faster in NS1. (especially because engine limitations restricted speed.)
You do remember that the first incarnation of the skulk had parasite removed. The idea was that skulks were faster and "should be out scouting" as Charlie put it when they first did the skulk reveal. Although parasite was put back in, they only did that since they couldn't come up with a better replacement. The podcasts also talked about the skulk being faster. Go have a listen.
Don't believe me, believe your eyes. Open up NS1, start a server and run around as skulk. The try a game of NS2 as skulk. Believe your eyes. If skulks are slower in NS2, then marines wouldn't have sprint. Think about it.
If I simply relied on my eyes, then I would begin the test with a preconception, and my brain would change what I see to suit it. That's why we have the scientific method.
Anyone that I have played with from NS2 that I have gotten to try NS1 had one comment the first time, generally something like holy **** the skulk is so small and fast.
Marines have sprint because the devs thought it was a good addition, not because skulks were faster. I already gave you direct speed comparisions showing that NS1 skulks were faster, what more does it take to prove it? Making a hybrid engine with a NS1 and NS2 skulk and a straight track to have a speed race???
10/10 would read again
As to which is faster, I do not know.
However, as I said previously, I compared skulk vs marine speeds between NS1 and 2, and they are vastly different. Just timing practical speeds from one important room to the next, along the same path, aliens were 45% faster than marines in NS1, whereas they were only 15% faster in NS2 (with moderate use of both walljumping and bhopping). The speed difference between the two has not been kept consistent, so that probably can't be used as a baseline for extrapolating the relative speed of a skulk in each game.
So ask the question... If NS2 marines have been given sprint, do people honestly think they would make skulks *slower* in NS2 than in NS1? Does that make any sense at all? The reason aliens haven't had any teleportation was since they are the faster race. To what extent is irrelevant, they are faster than marines.
So it begs the question, why give the faster race a means to move across the map even faster?
I've read a lot of people who try and defend the change, but none of that actually JUSTIFIES the change.
Convince me. Seriously. I'm open to being convinced otherwise. What possible justification could there be to give the faster race a tool to move even faster? Why give the other race something that basically nullifies yet another asymmetrical aspect in the game? (just as happened with the khamm)
What need was this change addressing?
xD
Saying that because marines have sprint aliens must be faster is like saying the onos needs to be massive because its expensive.
Marines with phase gates are 10-100 times faster than aliens. Try this strat on a pub:
1. Get a gate up outside of starting hive... sit there with mines and a few marines.
2. Get a gate up outside building hive.
3. beacon and rush building hive.
4. Alien team is forced to respond. They have to send most of their team or the hive dies.
5. When aliens arrive. Beacon and rush the other hive.
6. repeat step 5 until one of the hives dies, or the aliens rage quit.
right now this strat doesn't work very well because marines struggle to do anything, let alone get 2 gates up outside hives at the same time.
If you get both gates up with mines on them, this strategy is basically uncounterable.
Aliens have faster movement speed, but they are much slower than marines with phase gate.
I would argue they are the slower race.
Off to the speculation thread with you, go now! :P
Had maps been *bigger*, yeah that could be a justification for it. One could suggest alien speed was insufficient to get to the hives and such. But with tighter maps, this only gives the race superior mobility even BETTER mobility.
Yeah I know we will have to see it work to fully appreciate the change, but I still don't see any justification for it in principle. No one seems to be able to tell me why aliens NEED phase gates.
-It's not because they are the slower race, since they are not
-It's not because the maps are too large, since they are smaller than NS1
-It's not because they are losing more often, since they are not
So what is it? What's the justification for why aliens need phase gates? Seriously, I'm open-minded on this, give me some solid logical reasons and I'll be happy to acknowledge them.
With Aliens now getting Gorge tunnels to perform a similar function it will encourage alternative upgrade choices and more variety in games.
The easiest way to compare the relative speeds, is to run the same route on both games' version of veil. The route I chose was marine start to subsector (from the middle of marine start to the middle of the hive location/tech point). Comparing the size of both maps (easy enough, just resize minimaps to be the same size, align them over each other and make the top one 50% opacity), the distance traveled is actually greater on ns_veil than ns2_veil. Apart from the slightly shorter distance traveled on ns2_veil, the routes are functionally identical.
ns2_veil only holding w: 24 seconds.
ns2_veil walljumping: 20 seconds.
ns_veil only holding w: 21 seconds.
ns_veil bunnyhopping: 15 seconds.
xDragon's approach of converting maps to spark would be more accurate, but this is sufficient.
Nevermind the facts, though, because:
The point I have made repeatedly is about the gorge tunnels. No one seems to be able to tell me why aliens NEED phase gates.
-It's not because they are the slower race, since they are not
-It's not because the maps are too large, since they are smaller than NS1
-It's not because they are losing more often, since they are not
So what is it? What's the justification for why aliens need phase gates? Seriously, I'm open-minded on this, give me some solid logical reasons and I'll be happy to acknowledge them.
Hey Savant, I don't think it is so much that they 'need' Gorge tunnels but it adds extra strategy and gameplay elements to the game. Having the Gorge tunnels as an option for quick attack/defend scenarios will reduce Aliens dependency on Shift upgrade first. This will result in more varied games which in turn will lead to less players leaving due to boredom.
The maps are not too large but sometimes the travel times between hives can still be significant. Consider the scenario where on Veil, Aliens start in Sub-Sector and Marines first move is to take and secure Cargo. So assuming Aliens cannot clear Cargo their next move would be to go for Pipeline. Now this is very hard to do without Shifts as Aliens have to run across the entire map to defend it. A Gorge tunnel between Sub-Sector and Pipeline in this scenario would be very helpful.
You only gained 4 seconds?
And with bhopping you only gained 6?!
I thought either would yield at least double speed. Actually I'm pretty sure bhopping did more than double your speed.
You mention the dependence on shift? OK, here's a thought - uncouple it from the hive. Rename the shift hive to spur hive. Since there is a limit to the number of eggs you can pump out at a shift, it's a variable that is easily balanced. (cost for the eggs, cooldown, number of eggs - all can be tweaked if necessary) Give the new hive another chamber to replace it. Problem solved?
I would even consider putting these tunnels on the 'spur hive' in place of the shift. So no tunnels by default, but only if you develop that particular hive. Give them a cost to research as well. How about that? It would even fit the hive since celerity is on the hive, so it ties in with the 'speed' aspect.
Unless these tunnels are going to be tied to having 3 hives up, this is going to be a big buff for aliens; and frankly they're not the ones that need that right now.
However, in the end, I still am disappointed at how asymmetry is being chipped away at piece by piece. First the Khamm, now phase gates, and they've even considered mimicking the marine spawn system.
What's funny is that the people who are the first to say "asymmetry!", in response to someone asking why X team has something but Y team doesn't, are strangely quiet right now.
Just because the Hive mind is floating in the Sky and is of course faster to scale the map compared to the NS Gorge, doesn't mean the tasks have changed much from NS and the Gorge. The aliens still have an entirely different upgrade system based on classes and abilities versus weapons and straight up armour+damage upgrades... The only thing that is different is the fact that Gorges aren't needed and forced to place an RT on the map now and this is part of causing some issues with the overflow of resources...
Yes, at least +300% fps boost.
There is no such thing as a NEEDED new feature. The game could never receive another patch again and it would still be playable. Adding gorge tunnels has the following advantages:
- Opens up more tactical possibilities for the alien team, thus adding variety to the game
- Reduces dependency on Shift upgrades/eggs to give aliens decent map control
- They're really cool
Now why don't you tell me why aliens SHOULD NOT get gorge tunnels? Balance isn't a strong argument because that can always be tweaked to accommodate new features.
theres more to it than that though have to also consider the ease to hit a skulk the faster the skulk the harder it is to hit regardless of the marines movement speed.