Personally, I feel that Tech Points should not have Power Nodes, and the CC should act as the power source. I know that this will lead to more turtle scenarios with marines since aliens don't have an ARC equivalent, but the combo of Onos and Gorges bile bombing can take out huge areas of the marine base at the time, so i don't think it'll be a huge issue.
Also, this would force aliens to pick their targets and decide what is more valuable at the time, instead of just ALWAYS going for the Power Node.
Besides, whats wrong with requiring aliens to use teamwork to end a game (since marines a so much more dependant on teamwork).
Holy shit...that would solve so many problems at once and it's such a simple fix it's almost too good. I've won some games recently by gorging up outside a base when 2-3 exos start moving out, bile down the power by getting away with no notifications 2-3 games in a row.
Aliens are never going to bile a CC down without no one noticing like they can a power node, the mood music alone would stop this, the non stop alerts designed for CC and somehow not designed for tech point power would as well.
I feel if the fucking obs passive effect was fixed anytime soon this wouldn't happen half as much as it does, played another game recently where I heard "power is under attack", check map, obs is about 10 feet away from power, no red dots, fuck it I'll phase anyway make sure it's not a lerk doing fly bys, no it was 2 gorges who had the power on flashing that somehow did not register on a fucking obs they were almost standing on, definitely set us back a good 3-5 minutes of losing people on a push, dropping IPs in a new base and generally unfucking ourselves after 2 gorges could just stroll in undetected and hit the I WIN.
Would love to see the asymmetrical trolls explain the balance away in the following:
Power Node
Health: 2000
Armor: 1000
Note: Warning Beacon triggers at 40% health or lower.
Note: Warning Beacon triggers at 40% health or lower.
Note: Warning Beacon triggers at 40% health or lower.
This would explain why if you take your sweet time after hearing the warning it's way too late and why in games you've heard the warning followed closely by your upgrades going within a time frame of 5 seconds.
What would 40% HP be, something like 5 bile bombs away from power being knocked out, good feature with an absolutely fucking horrible implementation right there. Would also love to know the reasoning behind when the power goes out marines have to wait 10+ seconds before you can even start repairing it again which takes another 5+ seconds even with 3 marines, who the fuck decided this number and what was it supposed to be balanced around, muh assymettttryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.
edit: tl;dr: Tech point power nodes are shit, between horrible notification system, obs passive scan effect being useless half the time and in games of player counts 8v8 or higher being close to impossible to track everyone if 1-2 people on aliens spend all their res on gorge and bile bases they'll win 9/10 games or at least win a lot of games they shouldn't have.
The real problem with power nodes is that it completely defeats the purpose of having hit points on any of the other structures.
Lies. Marines can retake the, repair the node, and regain their upgrades. I'm sure you seen Marine team, bombarded with leaping skulks, gasing lerks, and biling gorges, weld a power soon after losing it.
I've seen gorges (with support) attempt to hit multiple locations, find success at one, only to die and hear the power come back on before their teammates can reach the base.
After seeing countless games won by bilebombing gorges on powernodes, some tweak(s) need to be done. If bilebombing itself was limited to only say 4 stacks ticking away at a time on a building/powernode PLUS a very pronounced warning when a powernode is attacked.... would pretty much solve all powernode problems.
The real problem with power nodes is that it completely defeats the purpose of having hit points on any of the other structures.
Marines can retake the, repair the node, and regain their upgrades. I'm sure you seen Marine team, bombarded with leaping skulks, gasing lerks, and biling gorges, weld a power soon after losing it.
That's not the point. Just because marines can overcome it doesn't make it any less broken. It's like saying the game is balanced as long as the marines can win one out of a hundred games. Just because they can win, doesn't mean it is balanced - just as just because marines can recover from a busted power noded doesn't make it a broken mechanic.
Power nodes do worse than just imbalance the game, they change the DYNAMIC of the game.
Imagine this for a moment. Let's pretend power nodes don't exist. Let's also pretend we have electrified extractors that can be purchased from the beginning of the game. What do you think will happen?
Normally aliens wait for marines to build, then they attack and destroy the extractor, yes? So you have marines who are not interacting with opponents, and aliens not interacting with opponents.
Now if the change I suggested was in place, aliens would instead have to kill the marines *BEFORE* they built the extractor. So they would be lying in wait, setting up ambushes. For the marines, there would be danger around every corner because instead of the inanimate power node or extractor being the target, THEY are the target. Kill the marines and they can't build. Kill the marines and they can't expand. It would be player vs player - instead of player versus extractor or power node.
Power nodes are pointless. They only encourage player vs machine gameplay. Instead of sitting around pressing M1 while you attack an extractor or a power node, wouldn't you rather be engaging in player versus player combat? I know I would.
Now if the change I suggested was in place, aliens would instead have to kill the marines *BEFORE* they built the extractor. So they would be lying in wait, setting up ambushes. For the marines, there would be danger around every corner because instead of the inanimate power node or extractor being the target, THEY are the target. Kill the marines and they can't build. Kill the marines and they can't expand. It would be player vs player - instead of player versus extractor or power node.
And marines would do nothing but send 5 guys to a node, build it, electrify it, and move on, knowing full well that the skulks can do absolutely nothing once electrification is up.
Insurance strategies reduce options, and reduce the impact of choices.
Now if the change I suggested was in place, aliens would instead have to kill the marines *BEFORE* they built the extractor.
And marines would do nothing but send 5 guys to a node, build it, electrify it, and move on, knowing full well that the skulks can do absolutely nothing once electrification is up.
You really think that would work?
We had no power nodes and we had electrified res nodes in NS1, your doomsday scenario never happened.
Marines could never afford to run around in large groups since it meant giving up too much of the map. If you put all your eggs in one basket you'll end up behind the aliens, since they can expand at a much faster pace even when you *do* split up. Running around in a big group would be a recipe to fail. Furthermore, even if marines did go out in larger groups, aliens would anticipate that. I don't know if you noticed, but if you get the jump on marines, even in a group, it becomes chaos. If marines moved in a groups aliens could react quickly with their faster speed.
Just as did happen in NS1. Back then alien scouting was actually important. You needed to be ahead of them, so that you could coordinate with your team-mates. NS1 was more about the battles between marines and aliens than in NS2, and frankly I miss it.
We had no power nodes and we had electrified res nodes in NS1, your doomsday scenario never happened.
This isn't NS1.
And even if it was, NS1 wasn't balanced.
But lets take it further. How does electrification differ from dropping 3 turrets at every extractor? Is it price? How much was electrification in NS1? 15 right? Well, make the battery free then. Turrets can cover both the extractor and the power node, so that should be a suitable solution right? Rather than circumventing a major hallmark of the game.
The real problem with power nodes is that it completely defeats the purpose of having hit points on any of the other structures.
Marines can retake the, repair the node, and regain their upgrades. I'm sure you seen Marine team, bombarded with leaping skulks, gasing lerks, and biling gorges, weld a power soon after losing it.
That's not the point. Just because marines can overcome it doesn't make it any less broken. It's like saying the game is balanced as long as the marines can win one out of a hundred games. Just because they can win, doesn't mean it is balanced - just as just because marines can recover from a busted power noded doesn't make it a broken mechanic.
Power nodes do worse than just imbalance the game, they change the DYNAMIC of the game.
It not "like saying the game is balanced as long as the marines can win one out of a hundred games.", it's saying that Marines can quickly recover from loss of power. They can recover so well that poorly playing Marines can turtle for tens of minutes at a time, with Level 3 upgrades and welders.
Most of the time, notification issues are the problem. Too many Commanders never saw an attack in base; when Aliens didn't have Silence. Stopping the sneak attacks saves games. The notification for Power attack seems to be buggy.
Imagine if the Hives didn't literally cry out, loud enough for everyone on the map to hear, and put up a noticeable health bar plus text message every time an enemy so much as touched it. It would be very easy to knock out a Hive. By the time one of the Aliens saw it (on the map), they'd have a hard time stopping it; no phase gates.
If there is an issue with anything, it should be the notification system for base Power nodes.
Imagine this for a moment. Let's pretend power nodes don't exist. Let's also pretend we have electrified extractors that can be purchased from the beginning of the game. What do you think will happen?
Normally aliens wait for marines to build, then they attack and destroy the extractor, yes? So you have marines who are not interacting with opponents, and aliens not interacting with opponents.
Now if the change I suggested was in place, aliens would instead have to kill the marines *BEFORE* they built the extractor. So they would be lying in wait, setting up ambushes. For the marines, there would be danger around every corner because instead of the inanimate power node or extractor being the target, THEY are the target. Kill the marines and they can't build. Kill the marines and they can't expand. It would be player vs player - instead of player versus extractor or power node.
As of now, some Aliens wait for extractors to be built, some don't, some wait for Marines to start building. There are options. The "pretend" way, there are less options, and a much stronger Marine early game.
You way doesn't add "danger around every corner" since it already exist. Your way just limits the ways Aliens can damage the Marines economy. Aliens will continue to go after other structures, when it can help them win. Your way would simply change the target priority list; Power nodes before extractors, non-electrified structures before electrified structures.
Power nodes are pointless. They only encourage player vs machine gameplay. Instead of sitting around pressing M1 while you attack an extractor or a power node, wouldn't you rather be engaging in player versus player combat? I know I would.
It depends on the situation. If taking out an Armslab cripples an entire team, I enjoy it twice (maybe three times) as much as killing a single enemy target. If taking out one cyst (of a chain) cripples the Aliens early game economy, I enjoy it more than killing 2 skulks and a gorge trying to secure a tech point. If you you just want player vs player, why not play combat?
Played a game of refinary last night where marines did really well (this was an 18 or 20 player server). Skipped pipeworks and went straight for containment lock down. Teams seemed fairly balanced, your normal mix on pubs of average, bad and good. Game went on for ages with both teams on 2 tech points (marines with containment and flow control, aliens with smelting and turbine), lava falls kept changing hands and pipeworks was for the most part left alone.
Marines had to deal with near constant bile rushes, lost an arms lab once to one gorge, lost the IP's over and over and over. Nearly lost the power node multiple times (kept up by people welding as it was still being biled, a welder can out DPS bile). All the attacks just drained momentum out of the team as they had to stand around and weld everything back, try and push out, only to have to come back to weld. The only reason we won the game is from chugging out 12 arcs to turbine hive. But as soon as that was down we got bile rushed again, aliens tried to rebuild it, tried a sneak build in pipework, but then got stuck on one hive. And kept rushing power! Marines just couldn't finish the game, eventually the aliens conceded.
Now a big reason for why that game played like it did is pub teamwork is mehish. If either team had managed a real well coordinated push they could of swung the game. If aliens had been in that position they would of much more easily kept up all the RTs their side of the map thanks to lerks and fades, they could of claimed the 3rd tech point with out it causing undue stress on the defense, and they would of been able to finish the game (or at least take it down to 1 enemy tech point) much easier.
What stood out the most from that game was "FU BILE BOMB!!!!". The skulks, lerks and fades attacking could be dealt with, even when they managed to get some onos out we could push them back. But the multiple gorge bile rushes that went on throughout the game were bloody hard work. For a 10 res unit gorges do a metric ton of damage and they aren't that weak (yes I know 1 clip kills them, but they jump around and heal each other and most marines can't aim).
Bile needs looking at. For a 2 hive ability on such a cheap unit it wrecks havoc! I think it falls into the same problem most of the other alien units have, scaling. Lack of scaling on the aliens side causes units and abilities to have only a very narrow range of game time where there useful but not over powered.
Anyway, bile bomb rant over. Thanks for listening/reading.
In NS1 one it cost 30 resources to electrify a res node, so it only became a viable tactic in the end-game when you had all your upgrades already. No one extractor is worth 30 resources if you still have tech to research.
Of course it could be modified if it was to be implemented in NS2, but all talk about electrified res towers being what saved marines from being harassed by skulks in NS1 is bullshit. The problem lies elsewhere.
Power nodes do worse than just imbalance the game, they change the DYNAMIC of the game.
It not "like saying the game is balanced as long as the marines can win one out of a hundred games.", it's saying that Marines can quickly recover from loss of power. They can recover so well that poorly playing Marines can turtle for tens of minutes at a time, with Level 3 upgrades and welders.
With respect, that's still not the point though.
Let's flip it around. People have been debating the possible balance impacts of a massive nerf to nanoshield. It's going from 8 seconds to 4 in duration, and the cooldown is going from 10 seconds to 12 seconds. Those who justify the change say that it was too powerful and made marines too hard to kill when it was active. Well if we use your logic, since the marine can still be killed, it must be balanced.
Just because marines can repair a power node doesn't make it any less of a broken mechanic. It's a big "I win" button that you can press without anyone knowing it. I have lost count of how many games marines have lost because a single skulk took out a power node in the marine start. Games should never end that way. This is a TEAM game, it's time it should start playing like one.
If there is an issue with anything, it should be the notification system for base Power nodes.
That's a whole other problem that isn't confined to the power node. The notification system is really bad right now, and that doesn't help any.
Imagine this for a moment. Let's pretend power nodes don't exist. Let's also pretend we have electrified extractors that can be purchased from the beginning of the game. What do you think will happen? Normally aliens wait for marines to build, then they attack and destroy the extractor, yes? So you have marines who are not interacting with opponents, and aliens not interacting with opponents.
As of now, some Aliens wait for extractors to be built, some don't, some wait for Marines to start building. There are options. The "pretend" way, there are less options, and a much stronger Marine early game.
The tactic with less risk is to wait. Taking on a marine now is a needless risk unless you know you can get the drop on him. The payoff is much greater if you can kill the built extractor after it is built since you can then go and kill the marine too.
Without power nodes, and with electrified extractors, aliens would actually need to use tactics, instead of blindly running around the map looking for the next hunk of metal to chew on.
You way doesn't add "danger around every corner" since it already exist. Your way just limits the ways Aliens can damage the Marines economy. Aliens will continue to go after other structures, when it can help them win.
What structures, and for what reason? Phase gates? Observatory? Arms lab?
With power nodes gone, instead of just making a bee-line for the power node, now the alien actually has to make a tactical choice. (God forbid!) That's how it was in NS1. If you raided a base you needed to pick your target based on what you felt would provide you the best advantage at that point in time. That might be a phase gate, but it might also be an advanced amoury or an arms lab. Or an IP. Those choices aren't made now since the EZ mode choice is to hit the power node and disable them all at once. Why would you possibly choose another target, other than the observatory in a special situation when you want to prevent a beacon? There is no incentive to kill off an IP when you can disable ALL IPs with the power node. Why kill the arms lab when you can disable it and all upgrades with the power node.
The power node takes a complicated game like NS2 and turns it into an EZ mode for aliens. That's why I can't stand to play the alien side, it's just not a challenge.
If you you just want player vs player, why not play combat?
The entire game is based around conflict between marines and aliens. That's why we have all these various alien lifeforms and marine weapons. Sitting around holding down M1 while I look at an extractor is boring. Sitting around holding down M1 while I look at a power node is boring, and a win from a power node ninja is completely unsatisfying. It takes ZERO skill to hold down M1 and take down a power node. NONE.
Maybe I'm alone in thinking that marines really don't need huge tweaks to their effectiveness. Marines mid-late game are really strong, It's only the early game that needs help. There are only a few things I would like to see changed.
1) Electrified nodes early game, maybe 10 res for 15 damage every 2 seconds a xeno is touching it. It would make the node still vulnerable to multiple enemies but unkillable to one skulk and useless versus late game lifeforms.
2) Protolabs keeping exos and jetpacks buyable with one base only after they have been researched. Because one base comebacks should be possible.
3) HUGE upgrade to power node under attack notifications for marine team and maybe a small hp boost. I'm on the fence if these things should be hp buffed or taken out entirely. For now just a new warning system would be nice.
With these few changes I think it would give marines a fair chance at reaching mid game which, let's face it, is where marines start to put up a good fight with upgraded weapons and armor. Also without having to fall back to defend the nodes all the time it frees up the marines to harass the Aliens early RTs which delays their economy. While it doesn't address the other imbalances like Alien comms being too self reliant, it should at least give marines the slight boost they need to reach mid game and survive late game with one base.
I'm glad I don't play with Savant.... using his tactics would cause more losses than wins.... and everything you mention is a gross oversimplification. There are plenty of instances where not attacking the power node first is better.
I have always defended the power node mechanic, because it adds to the game by giving aliens a chance to turn the tide even in situations where they seem to lose. Power nodes are what set marines under constant pressure. Even if they are winning. They also decrease the amount of turtles and I like the immersion of that dynamic lighting bound to them.
That said, I think we should at least try something new in the balance mod for example. Power Nodes with way less health but decoupled from buildings could work and could reduce the amount of player vs structure tasks.
We are talking here about light switches. Fast to destroy, fast to repair. It would increase their usefulness as battlefield-modification. Because right now, it takes to long to bite them down. Thats why the darkness they can cause is only a secondary effect. If they would be destroyable very fast, it would be their primary use instead.
It also increases the appearance of ninja phase gates. The power nodes sure need to be pre-placed for this change or marines would never build them. It would also take a little bit of pressure from the marines in early game, because some skulks could dedicate themselves to darken the map.
Heck, if the light mechanic isn't enough to get them used by players in the game, some little debuffs to buildings (like mentioned) could be introduced. Like "slower" phase-gates, no armor repair from armories, slower spawning from IPs. But only little debuffs! Not a complete black out for every building. I really think that could work better.
In regards to electrifing extractors like NS1 it is plausible. It would require more adjustments then simply just allowing marines that option. In NS1 fades could come out extremely quickly due to the resource for kill also fades could kill structure's just as easily as skulks plus they had metabolism.
Here is a little tit for tat for you guys who didn't play NS1, typically the target structure was the advance armory to prevent marines from acquiring JP/Heavy armor's. If it went down and they already had jp/heavy's in the field it would prevent them purchasing more till the new armory finished upgrading to a AA.
Now in NS2 the only structures that matter at strong holds(Tech Points) powernode>obs if PG,Obs, CC are at location. Now, if the location doesn't have a CC then you can just focus the phase gate; the down side to this is marines normally mine up the phase gates but not the power.
Bile bomb should be left alone it is not the problem. Forward marine holds(that aren't Tech points) some times can only be brought down by bile bomb. Typically the best strategies for marines is to create a forward strong hold and siege out aliens strong hold(hive). In a majority of games I play with decent aliens that have 2-3 craigs around their hive you are pretty much forced to Arc out the hive.
Even watching some of these scrims that are posted it seems to be the only viable option for marines. The difference in those small 6v6 matches is the marines never stray that far from their PG and aliens have such small numbers it is very hard for them to do the ninja lametactic. Another reason I have stated that those matches should be bumped up to 8v8 because no one but a small number of players play at those player count numbers. Which UWE seems to be balancing the game around.
There are plenty of instances where not attacking the power node first is better.
Other than the narrow circumstance where you attack the obs to prevent a beacon in the very late game, please enlighten me. What other building (other than the obs) would you choose to attack *instead* of a power node?
In NS1 one it cost 30 resources to electrify a res node, so it only became a viable tactic in the end-game when you had all your upgrades already. No one extractor is worth 30 resources if you still have tech to research.
Of course it could be modified if it was to be implemented in NS2, but all talk about electrified res towers being what saved marines from being harassed by skulks in NS1 is bullshit. The problem lies elsewhere.
Back in NS1, if the comm electrified an RT, he got ejected pronto. What saved NS1 RTs from being harassed was marine pressure on alien RTs or hives, and mines. Sound familiar?
(of course, even if marines were pushed back to one base, it was just a matter of activating turtle mode and farming the aliens until HA HMGs)
I have always defended the power node mechanic, because it adds to the game by giving aliens a chance to turn the tide even in situations where they seem to lose. Power nodes are what set marines under constant pressure. Even if they are winning. They also decrease the amount of turtles and I like the immersion of that dynamic lighting bound to them.
That said, I think we should at least try something new in the balance mod for example. Power Nodes with way less health but decoupled from buildings could work and could reduce the amount of player vs structure tasks.
We are talking here about light switches. Fast to destroy, fast to repair. It would increase their usefulness as battlefield-modification. Because right now, it takes to long to bite them down. Thats why the darkness they can cause is only a secondary effect. If they would be destroyable very fast, it would be their primary use instead.
It also increases the appearance of ninja phase gates. The power nodes sure need to be pre-placed for this change or marines would never build them. It would also take a little bit of pressure from the marines in early game, because some skulks could dedicate themselves to darken the map.
Heck, if the light mechanic isn't enough to get them used by players in the game, some little debuffs to buildings (like mentioned) could be introduced. Like "slower" phase-gates, no armor repair from armories, slower spawning from IPs. But only little debuffs! Not a complete black out for every building. I really think that could work better.
This is an idea I can get behind... agree on all counts. I would rather see the 'power' node be turned into something like an 'Uplink Node'. This Uplink Node connects the Tech Point to the marine's main ship in orbit (not the dinky little dropship). The main ship beams down a constant stream of nanites (hey, work with me here) to this Uplink Node.
Reduce the Uplink Node to half of its current armor or something.
So, as long as you have one tech point with one comm station, you have basic power to your structures anywhere on the map.
- ALL STRUCTURES: 50% longer to build
- Armory - heals HP, but does not repair armor. Advanced armory cannot be researched.
- Arms Lab - research is 25% slower
- Observatory - radius is 25% smaller, research is 25% slower distress beacon beeps 4 times instead of 3
- Phase Gate - takes 50% longer for the phase gate to transport you through
- Prototype Lab - research is 50% slower
- Infantry Portal - marines spawn in 20% slower than normal
- Robotics Factory - all units take 25% longer to manufacture, cannot research ARCs
Basically the Uplink Node makes the marine structures more efficient (ie. normal operation), but it is NOT required except for the key upgrades (upgrades will be kept if the Uplink Node gets destroyed). You can do a ninja PG without an Uplink Node built, but it takes 50% longer to build and 50% longer to gather your marines through that gate. If the Uplink Node is built and destroyed later, the room will go dark as usual then turn into red emergency lighting.
Of course, Uplink Nodes give their bonuses for the room they're built in, independent of other rooms.
This makes it so that aliens will coordinate to hit the Uplink Node first before a base rush to debuff the marines in that room (PG reinforcements come in 50% slower, respawning marines take longer to spawn back, beacons do an additional beep before working). But at least marines still have a fighting chance to maintain that base. Oh and reduce the repair cooldown to 2 seconds instead of 5.
We had no power nodes and we had electrified res nodes in NS1, your doomsday scenario never happened.
This isn't NS1.
And even if it was, NS1 wasn't balanced.
NS1 was very balanced. 3.2 is as close to perfectly balanced as a game this complex can hope to be. Certainly NS1 is more balanced than NS2. However, it took 5 years for it to get that way.
I have always defended the power node mechanic, because it adds to the game by giving aliens a chance to turn the tide even in situations where they seem to lose. Power nodes are what set marines under constant pressure. Even if they are winning. They also decrease the amount of turtles and I like the immersion of that dynamic lighting bound to them.
That said, I think we should at least try something new in the balance mod for example. Power Nodes with way less health but decoupled from buildings could work and could reduce the amount of player vs structure tasks.
We are talking here about light switches. Fast to destroy, fast to repair. It would increase their usefulness as battlefield-modification. Because right now, it takes to long to bite them down. Thats why the darkness they can cause is only a secondary effect. If they would be destroyable very fast, it would be their primary use instead.
It also increases the appearance of ninja phase gates. The power nodes sure need to be pre-placed for this change or marines would never build them. It would also take a little bit of pressure from the marines in early game, because some skulks could dedicate themselves to darken the map.
Heck, if the light mechanic isn't enough to get them used by players in the game, some little debuffs to buildings (like mentioned) could be introduced. Like "slower" phase-gates, no armor repair from armories, slower spawning from IPs. But only little debuffs! Not a complete black out for every building. I really think that could work better.
It was somewhat like this in alpha, remember? I loved it like that.. round started and I went off to chew on already built power nodes around the map.. making things pitch dark.
The thing I anticipated the most before alpha was released was the dynamic lighting engine providing amazing meta games based on light available. As in design the aliens to utilize the dark etc.
Unfortunately the developers didnt like their hard work put into art assets being largely in the dark.
I always wanted to make a mod that capitalized on the dark, for those who enjoy that type of gameplay
Power nodes do worse than just imbalance the game, they change the DYNAMIC of the game.
It not "like saying the game is balanced as long as the marines can win one out of a hundred games.", it's saying that Marines can quickly recover from loss of power. They can recover so well that poorly playing Marines can turtle for tens of minutes at a time, with Level 3 upgrades and welders.
With respect, that's still not the point though.
Let's flip it around. People have been debating the possible balance impacts of a massive nerf to nanoshield. It's going from 8 seconds to 4 in duration, and the cooldown is going from 10 seconds to 12 seconds. Those who justify the change say that it was too powerful and made marines too hard to kill when it was active. Well if we use your logic, since the marine can still be killed, it must be balanced.
Just because marines can repair a power node doesn't make it any less of a broken mechanic. It's a big "I win" button that you can press without anyone knowing it. I have lost count of how many games marines have lost because a single skulk took out a power node in the marine start. Games should never end that way. This is a TEAM game, it's time it should start playing like one.
Nano shield at 8 seconds with a 10 sec CD doesn't bother me; the Marine can still be killed.
A Marine team losing because a single skulk took out a Base (Tech point) had big issues. It takes one Marine to phase/spawn and aim at the Power Node. It's not the skulks fault the Marines either ignored or missed a single skulk on the Power Node. What team loses a game to a single skulk killing a Power Node and says, "This is a serious balance issue!"?
Imagine this for a moment. Let's pretend power nodes don't exist. Let's also pretend we have electrified extractors that can be purchased from the beginning of the game. What do you think will happen? Normally aliens wait for marines to build, then they attack and destroy the extractor, yes? So you have marines who are not interacting with opponents, and aliens not interacting with opponents.
As of now, some Aliens wait for extractors to be built, some don't, some wait for Marines to start building. There are options. The "pretend" way, there are less options, and a much stronger Marine early game.
The tactic with less risk is to wait. Taking on a marine now is a needless risk unless you know you can get the drop on him. The payoff is much greater if you can kill the built extractor after it is built since you can then go and kill the marine too.
Without power nodes, and with electrified extractors, aliens would actually need to use tactics, instead of blindly running around the map looking for the next hunk of metal to chew on.
Less risk for waiting is not an absolute fact. Killing a marine (or two) while they build, shortens the time it takes to destroy the node, as well as prevents res gains from that node. Killing Marines before they reach the node helps prevent a potential forward base and reinforces map dominance.
Waiting allows to Marines to gain res from the node, potentially defend it (after it's attacked), and waste the Aliens time when they could have attacked sooner and moved on. It's not a risk free move.
You way doesn't add "danger around every corner" since it already exist. Your way just limits the ways Aliens can damage the Marines economy. Aliens will continue to go after other structures, when it can help them win.
What structures, and for what reason? Phase gates? Observatory? Arms lab?
With power nodes gone, instead of just making a bee-line for the power node, now the alien actually has to make a tactical choice. (God forbid!) That's how it was in NS1. If you raided a base you needed to pick your target based on what you felt would provide you the best advantage at that point in time. That might be a phase gate, but it might also be an advanced amoury or an arms lab. Or an IP. Those choices aren't made now since the EZ mode choice is to hit the power node and disable them all at once. Why would you possibly choose another target, other than the observatory in a special situation when you want to prevent a beacon? There is no incentive to kill off an IP when you can disable ALL IPs with the power node. Why kill the arms lab when you can disable it and all upgrades with the power node.
The power node takes a complicated game like NS2 and turns it into an EZ mode for aliens. That's why I can't stand to play the alien side, it's just not a challenge.
Armlabs might be in a more accessible, out of LOS, area; with no w3/a3, Onos turns into a two shotting tank and Fades become assassins.
If you you just want player vs player, why not play combat?
The entire game is based around conflict between marines and aliens. That's why we have all these various alien lifeforms and marine weapons. Sitting around holding down M1 while I look at an extractor is boring. Sitting around holding down M1 while I look at a power node is boring, and a win from a power node ninja is completely unsatisfying. It takes ZERO skill to hold down M1 and take down a power node. NONE.
That's why power nodes are a broken mechanic.
If you're looking at the Power Node/Extractor, while biting it, I'd pick you off from 10 meters away, then repair the Node/Extractor. Part of the game is the risk of being killed while attempting to destroy a structure. I'd expect you to be looking down the hall and listening for enemy foot steps; multiple foot steps and sounds of running.
There are plenty of instances where not attacking the power node first is better.
Other than the narrow circumstance where you attack the obs to prevent a beacon in the very late game, please enlighten me. What other building (other than the obs) would you choose to attack *instead* of a power node?
The Comm Chair, Advanced Armory (if you're looking to hinder Prototype tech), the Armslab, Phase Gate (to either stop Marines from freely returning to base or to force the beacon). I don't understand how this is a question. Every game doesn't play out the same. Some games, Marines are on their toes, phasing through when a structure flashes red once. Some games, three skulks can silence/stealth a power node (it's not easy and satisfying).
The Comm Chair, Advanced Armory (if you're looking to hinder Prototype tech), the Armslab, Phase Gate (to either stop Marines from freely returning to base or to force the beacon). I don't understand how this is a question. Every game doesn't play out the same. Some games, Marines are on their toes, phasing through when a structure flashes red once. Some games, three skulks can silence/stealth a power node (it's not easy and satisfying).
As a lone Gorge attacking the marine's main base, I will almost always focus on the advanced armory. Not only is it one of the most expensive structures in the base in terms of resources, but time as well.
In NS1 one it cost 30 resources to electrify a res node, so it only became a viable tactic in the end-game when you had all your upgrades already. No one extractor is worth 30 resources if you still have tech to research.
Of course it could be modified if it was to be implemented in NS2, but all talk about electrified res towers being what saved marines from being harassed by skulks in NS1 is bullshit. The problem lies elsewhere.
Back in NS1, if the comm electrified an RT, he got ejected pronto. What saved NS1 RTs from being harassed was marine pressure on alien RTs or hives, and mines. Sound familiar?
You sound as if you disagreed with me, even though our posts are in full agreement.
Other than the narrow circumstance where you attack the obs to prevent a beacon in the very late game, please enlighten me. What other building (other than the obs) would you choose to attack *instead* of a power node?
There are plenty of examples on the previous page. Obs, arms lab, proto, AA, even the CC, they're all good under different circumstances.
17 seconds for one gorge. ~10seconds for two gorges. Remember those numbers, because if you don't check your minimap every 17 or 10 seconds you deserve to lose the game. Period. No alert either since the NS2 alert system is bugged. Fighting an Onos? Better check that minimap. Flying around getting chased by two skulks? Check that map. Fighting a fade in 3:1 combat? Check that minimap is more important than killing the alien team.
Also, I think marines should have 10 bullets in their clip. Afterall, if you can't kill a skulk in 10 bullets you "have no idea how to play the game" and should give your slot to better people.
How hard do the marines have to be before it's hard enough for the players of the community? If marines had only had 10 bullets in the clip from the start would that have been enjoyable for most people? It's still winnable for marines but is it enjoyable and fun for marines to play that way?
I think most people agree at the minimum a better alarm system should be implemented for the power node (since it's bugged right now) and that'd be a good start. However, the 10-20 second death window is still quite extreme (In fact, the window is smaller because even if you kill the gorge(s) before that time, the acid DOT can still blow the power). I'm not saying we should remove Bilebomb but I think it's very unsatisfactory for 10-20s of intense combat to lead to a defeat because you were too busy fighting for your life.
It's an unforgiving mechanic that has no skill:resource:time based equivalent on the marines side and I believe the issue should be examined by the UWE team.
The notification system is not "...really bad...". It needs to be tweaked to be more helpful.
Can and do teams lose games because of the notification system? Yes. As such, this is bad. Let's remove the hive attack 'scream' sound to balance this, then see how people like it. Hmmm? The current system of marine notifications is "really bad". Let's not sugar coat it.
Less risk for waiting is not an absolute fact. Killing a marine (or two) while they build, shortens the time it takes to destroy the node, as well as prevents res gains from that node. Killing Marines before they reach the node helps prevent a potential forward base and reinforces map dominance. Waiting allows to Marines to gain res from the node, potentially defend it (after it's attacked), and waste the Aliens time when they could have attacked sooner and moved on. It's not a risk free move.
You're not considering the resource impact though. Killing the extractor is the much better strategy since it is a sure thing. (if you pay attention to marine movements) However, more importantly, if you kill an extractor you have just put marines in the hole for 10 res. Do that three times in the early game and it is game over for the marines. It's THAT easy.
Killing marines does nothing to impact their economy. So they respawn 7 seconds later and bring a buddy. You've accomplished nothing but to draw attention to yourself and your objective. When they get back, you're dead (or gravely injured and fleeing) and the marines are moving ahead while you are out of the action. Furthermore, you have an marine extractor up that is pumping resources into the marine economy and marines who are on the alert to protect it. Congratulations, you've just given marines a small advantage.
In the beginning of the game, extractor takedowns are HUGE. If you can kill three (shortly after they are built) you cripple the marine team. Even if they can recover, that going to cost them a minute (of game time) to recover the resources for the lost extractor. That's a massive setback in the early game, and it will usually cost the marines the game.
With no electrification on extractors, the superior tactic is to take out the extractor first in the beginning of the game. In the mid/late game, go after marines, sure. At that point the impact to their resource pool is far less significant when you kill an single extractor. However, in the early game the extractors are the only target (aside from a base power node) that can effectively win you the game right off the bat.
Why do you think marines concede in the early game? It's not because a few of them got ganked on their way to a res node. It's because aliens took out too many of their early extractors and they have no res.
You way doesn't add "danger around every corner" since it already exist. Your way just limits the ways Aliens can damage the Marines economy. Aliens will continue to go after other structures, when it can help them win.
What structures, and for what reason? Phase gates? Observatory? Arms lab?
Armlabs might be in a more accessible, out of LOS, area; with no w3/a3, Onos turns into a two shotting tank and Fades become assassins. ... The Comm Chair, Advanced Armory (if you're looking to hinder Prototype tech), the Armslab, Phase Gate (to either stop Marines from freely returning to base or to force the beacon).
Here are the problems with that.
#1. Power nodes are almost always in a better spot to attack, since they are on the periphery of a given room.
#2. The arms labs are almost always placed near where the command chair and IPs are. (not right beside, but closer than a power node) As such you are at immediate risk of death with nowhere to hide.
#3. The craptastic notification system won't show your power node attack on the map. (since power nodes don't blink when attacked like structures do) Furthermore, the audio notification (on the rare occasions when you get one) doesn't differentiate to indicate what is under attack. So it becomes difficult to see exactly what is under attack at a glance. That's a huge benefit.
#4. Most importantly, the difference in 'time to kill' between the power node and other structures is usually negligible. (except the Observatory, as I noted above, which can be considered a better target in narrow circumstances.) Why spend 24 seconds to kill a Proto Lab when that same 24 seconds will take out the power node?
Let's take a closer look, shall we?
Skulk: 75 per bite, each .45 of a second = 167 DPS
So... the ONLY structures that you could kill faster than a power node, are an IP, Obs and Arms Lab. Problem is, no one sticks their arms lab in an out of the way corner where it is hard to defend. Like the IP, it's usually within LOS of the Comm chair. So if push comes to shove, comm could jump out to protect it.
ANY other structure, would take just as long to kill, if not longer, than a power node. Why the heck would you chomp on the CC when it will take you 12 seconds more to kill it compared to the power node? Advanced Armory and Proto Lab? You can kill a power node in the SAME amount of time, and not only do you disable that structure, you disable ALL of them. Even the Phase Game dies as fast as the power node.
Sorry, but passing a power node to go chomp on the comm chair - which is right beside the IPs - is a suicide mission that will net you nothing against a team that you don't significantly outclass.
If you you just want player vs player, why not play combat?
The entire game is based around conflict between marines and aliens. That's why we have all these various alien lifeforms and marine weapons. Sitting around holding down M1 while I look at an extractor is boring. Sitting around holding down M1 while I look at a power node is boring, and a win from a power node ninja is completely unsatisfying. It takes ZERO skill to hold down M1 and take down a power node. NONE.
If you're looking at the Power Node/Extractor, while biting it, I'd pick you off from 10 meters away, then repair the Node/Extractor. Part of the game is the risk of being killed while attempting to destroy a structure. I'd expect you to be looking down the hall and listening for enemy foot steps; multiple foot steps and sounds of running.
You took my remark too literally. My point was that you have to stay in one place, holding down your M1 key for almost 30 seconds, killing an inanimate object.
Standing around while you kill inanimate objects in a PvP game is boring and not fun.
Other than the narrow circumstance where you attack the obs to prevent a beacon in the very late game, please enlighten me. What other building (other than the obs) would you choose to attack *instead* of a power node?
I used to think that attacking the powernode in marine start was always the best option, but the actual situation is much more complex, depending on your intended goal of the bilebomb assault and your probability of success. For example, a common goal is to force a beacon to protect a hive or to isolate some exos, in which case hitting the command station is preferred because it gives a big warning pops up for the comm making him more likely to panic beacon. If you don't think you'll be able to kill the powernode in time, its typically more useful to bilebomb the most densely packed group of structures instead. This ensures that best change of being able to kill something before you die or, at the very least, delays marine movement as they have to spend time repairing the damaged structures. Also, somethings its just simply worthwhile to go for the most expensive structures (advanced armory/proto) as it can be a big setback to the marine economy.
Killing the phase gate, arms lab, or advanced armory will disrupt a marine team for upwards of 30 seconds, more if you can force a beacon and kill a structure.
keep in mind these structures all have waaay less health than a power node.
Thats why good commanders get a backup arms lab in another base. I find it too strong for marines and it would make xenocide less effective. I'd say keep it the way it is.
Comments
Holy shit...that would solve so many problems at once and it's such a simple fix it's almost too good. I've won some games recently by gorging up outside a base when 2-3 exos start moving out, bile down the power by getting away with no notifications 2-3 games in a row.
Aliens are never going to bile a CC down without no one noticing like they can a power node, the mood music alone would stop this, the non stop alerts designed for CC and somehow not designed for tech point power would as well.
I feel if the fucking obs passive effect was fixed anytime soon this wouldn't happen half as much as it does, played another game recently where I heard "power is under attack", check map, obs is about 10 feet away from power, no red dots, fuck it I'll phase anyway make sure it's not a lerk doing fly bys, no it was 2 gorges who had the power on flashing that somehow did not register on a fucking obs they were almost standing on, definitely set us back a good 3-5 minutes of losing people on a push, dropping IPs in a new base and generally unfucking ourselves after 2 gorges could just stroll in undetected and hit the I WIN.
Would love to see the asymmetrical trolls explain the balance away in the following:
Power Node
Health: 2000
Armor: 1000
Note: Warning Beacon triggers at 40% health or lower.
Note: Warning Beacon triggers at 40% health or lower.
Note: Warning Beacon triggers at 40% health or lower.
This would explain why if you take your sweet time after hearing the warning it's way too late and why in games you've heard the warning followed closely by your upgrades going within a time frame of 5 seconds.
What would 40% HP be, something like 5 bile bombs away from power being knocked out, good feature with an absolutely fucking horrible implementation right there. Would also love to know the reasoning behind when the power goes out marines have to wait 10+ seconds before you can even start repairing it again which takes another 5+ seconds even with 3 marines, who the fuck decided this number and what was it supposed to be balanced around, muh assymettttryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.
edit: tl;dr: Tech point power nodes are shit, between horrible notification system, obs passive scan effect being useless half the time and in games of player counts 8v8 or higher being close to impossible to track everyone if 1-2 people on aliens spend all their res on gorge and bile bases they'll win 9/10 games or at least win a lot of games they shouldn't have.
Lies. Marines can retake the, repair the node, and regain their upgrades. I'm sure you seen Marine team, bombarded with leaping skulks, gasing lerks, and biling gorges, weld a power soon after losing it.
I've seen gorges (with support) attempt to hit multiple locations, find success at one, only to die and hear the power come back on before their teammates can reach the base.
Power nodes do worse than just imbalance the game, they change the DYNAMIC of the game.
Imagine this for a moment. Let's pretend power nodes don't exist. Let's also pretend we have electrified extractors that can be purchased from the beginning of the game. What do you think will happen?
Normally aliens wait for marines to build, then they attack and destroy the extractor, yes? So you have marines who are not interacting with opponents, and aliens not interacting with opponents.
Now if the change I suggested was in place, aliens would instead have to kill the marines *BEFORE* they built the extractor. So they would be lying in wait, setting up ambushes. For the marines, there would be danger around every corner because instead of the inanimate power node or extractor being the target, THEY are the target. Kill the marines and they can't build. Kill the marines and they can't expand. It would be player vs player - instead of player versus extractor or power node.
Power nodes are pointless. They only encourage player vs machine gameplay. Instead of sitting around pressing M1 while you attack an extractor or a power node, wouldn't you rather be engaging in player versus player combat? I know I would.
And marines would do nothing but send 5 guys to a node, build it, electrify it, and move on, knowing full well that the skulks can do absolutely nothing once electrification is up.
Insurance strategies reduce options, and reduce the impact of choices.
We had no power nodes and we had electrified res nodes in NS1, your doomsday scenario never happened.
Marines could never afford to run around in large groups since it meant giving up too much of the map. If you put all your eggs in one basket you'll end up behind the aliens, since they can expand at a much faster pace even when you *do* split up. Running around in a big group would be a recipe to fail. Furthermore, even if marines did go out in larger groups, aliens would anticipate that. I don't know if you noticed, but if you get the jump on marines, even in a group, it becomes chaos. If marines moved in a groups aliens could react quickly with their faster speed.
Just as did happen in NS1. Back then alien scouting was actually important. You needed to be ahead of them, so that you could coordinate with your team-mates. NS1 was more about the battles between marines and aliens than in NS2, and frankly I miss it.
This isn't NS1.
And even if it was, NS1 wasn't balanced.
But lets take it further. How does electrification differ from dropping 3 turrets at every extractor? Is it price? How much was electrification in NS1? 15 right? Well, make the battery free then. Turrets can cover both the extractor and the power node, so that should be a suitable solution right? Rather than circumventing a major hallmark of the game.
It not "like saying the game is balanced as long as the marines can win one out of a hundred games.", it's saying that Marines can quickly recover from loss of power. They can recover so well that poorly playing Marines can turtle for tens of minutes at a time, with Level 3 upgrades and welders.
Most of the time, notification issues are the problem. Too many Commanders never saw an attack in base; when Aliens didn't have Silence. Stopping the sneak attacks saves games. The notification for Power attack seems to be buggy.
Imagine if the Hives didn't literally cry out, loud enough for everyone on the map to hear, and put up a noticeable health bar plus text message every time an enemy so much as touched it. It would be very easy to knock out a Hive. By the time one of the Aliens saw it (on the map), they'd have a hard time stopping it; no phase gates.
If there is an issue with anything, it should be the notification system for base Power nodes.
As of now, some Aliens wait for extractors to be built, some don't, some wait for Marines to start building. There are options. The "pretend" way, there are less options, and a much stronger Marine early game.
You way doesn't add "danger around every corner" since it already exist. Your way just limits the ways Aliens can damage the Marines economy. Aliens will continue to go after other structures, when it can help them win. Your way would simply change the target priority list; Power nodes before extractors, non-electrified structures before electrified structures.
It depends on the situation. If taking out an Armslab cripples an entire team, I enjoy it twice (maybe three times) as much as killing a single enemy target. If taking out one cyst (of a chain) cripples the Aliens early game economy, I enjoy it more than killing 2 skulks and a gorge trying to secure a tech point. If you you just want player vs player, why not play combat?
Marines had to deal with near constant bile rushes, lost an arms lab once to one gorge, lost the IP's over and over and over. Nearly lost the power node multiple times (kept up by people welding as it was still being biled, a welder can out DPS bile). All the attacks just drained momentum out of the team as they had to stand around and weld everything back, try and push out, only to have to come back to weld. The only reason we won the game is from chugging out 12 arcs to turbine hive. But as soon as that was down we got bile rushed again, aliens tried to rebuild it, tried a sneak build in pipework, but then got stuck on one hive. And kept rushing power! Marines just couldn't finish the game, eventually the aliens conceded.
Now a big reason for why that game played like it did is pub teamwork is mehish. If either team had managed a real well coordinated push they could of swung the game. If aliens had been in that position they would of much more easily kept up all the RTs their side of the map thanks to lerks and fades, they could of claimed the 3rd tech point with out it causing undue stress on the defense, and they would of been able to finish the game (or at least take it down to 1 enemy tech point) much easier.
What stood out the most from that game was "FU BILE BOMB!!!!". The skulks, lerks and fades attacking could be dealt with, even when they managed to get some onos out we could push them back. But the multiple gorge bile rushes that went on throughout the game were bloody hard work. For a 10 res unit gorges do a metric ton of damage and they aren't that weak (yes I know 1 clip kills them, but they jump around and heal each other and most marines can't aim).
Bile needs looking at. For a 2 hive ability on such a cheap unit it wrecks havoc! I think it falls into the same problem most of the other alien units have, scaling. Lack of scaling on the aliens side causes units and abilities to have only a very narrow range of game time where there useful but not over powered.
Anyway, bile bomb rant over. Thanks for listening/reading.
In NS1 one it cost 30 resources to electrify a res node, so it only became a viable tactic in the end-game when you had all your upgrades already. No one extractor is worth 30 resources if you still have tech to research.
Of course it could be modified if it was to be implemented in NS2, but all talk about electrified res towers being what saved marines from being harassed by skulks in NS1 is bullshit. The problem lies elsewhere.
Let's flip it around. People have been debating the possible balance impacts of a massive nerf to nanoshield. It's going from 8 seconds to 4 in duration, and the cooldown is going from 10 seconds to 12 seconds. Those who justify the change say that it was too powerful and made marines too hard to kill when it was active. Well if we use your logic, since the marine can still be killed, it must be balanced.
Just because marines can repair a power node doesn't make it any less of a broken mechanic. It's a big "I win" button that you can press without anyone knowing it. I have lost count of how many games marines have lost because a single skulk took out a power node in the marine start. Games should never end that way. This is a TEAM game, it's time it should start playing like one.
That's a whole other problem that isn't confined to the power node. The notification system is really bad right now, and that doesn't help any.
The tactic with less risk is to wait. Taking on a marine now is a needless risk unless you know you can get the drop on him. The payoff is much greater if you can kill the built extractor after it is built since you can then go and kill the marine too.
Without power nodes, and with electrified extractors, aliens would actually need to use tactics, instead of blindly running around the map looking for the next hunk of metal to chew on.
What structures, and for what reason? Phase gates? Observatory? Arms lab?
With power nodes gone, instead of just making a bee-line for the power node, now the alien actually has to make a tactical choice. (God forbid!) That's how it was in NS1. If you raided a base you needed to pick your target based on what you felt would provide you the best advantage at that point in time. That might be a phase gate, but it might also be an advanced amoury or an arms lab. Or an IP. Those choices aren't made now since the EZ mode choice is to hit the power node and disable them all at once. Why would you possibly choose another target, other than the observatory in a special situation when you want to prevent a beacon? There is no incentive to kill off an IP when you can disable ALL IPs with the power node. Why kill the arms lab when you can disable it and all upgrades with the power node.
The power node takes a complicated game like NS2 and turns it into an EZ mode for aliens. That's why I can't stand to play the alien side, it's just not a challenge.
The entire game is based around conflict between marines and aliens. That's why we have all these various alien lifeforms and marine weapons. Sitting around holding down M1 while I look at an extractor is boring. Sitting around holding down M1 while I look at a power node is boring, and a win from a power node ninja is completely unsatisfying. It takes ZERO skill to hold down M1 and take down a power node. NONE.
That's why power nodes are a broken mechanic.
1) Electrified nodes early game, maybe 10 res for 15 damage every 2 seconds a xeno is touching it. It would make the node still vulnerable to multiple enemies but unkillable to one skulk and useless versus late game lifeforms.
2) Protolabs keeping exos and jetpacks buyable with one base only after they have been researched. Because one base comebacks should be possible.
3) HUGE upgrade to power node under attack notifications for marine team and maybe a small hp boost. I'm on the fence if these things should be hp buffed or taken out entirely. For now just a new warning system would be nice.
With these few changes I think it would give marines a fair chance at reaching mid game which, let's face it, is where marines start to put up a good fight with upgraded weapons and armor. Also without having to fall back to defend the nodes all the time it frees up the marines to harass the Aliens early RTs which delays their economy. While it doesn't address the other imbalances like Alien comms being too self reliant, it should at least give marines the slight boost they need to reach mid game and survive late game with one base.
That said, I think we should at least try something new in the balance mod for example. Power Nodes with way less health but decoupled from buildings could work and could reduce the amount of player vs structure tasks.
We are talking here about light switches. Fast to destroy, fast to repair. It would increase their usefulness as battlefield-modification. Because right now, it takes to long to bite them down. Thats why the darkness they can cause is only a secondary effect. If they would be destroyable very fast, it would be their primary use instead.
It also increases the appearance of ninja phase gates. The power nodes sure need to be pre-placed for this change or marines would never build them. It would also take a little bit of pressure from the marines in early game, because some skulks could dedicate themselves to darken the map.
Heck, if the light mechanic isn't enough to get them used by players in the game, some little debuffs to buildings (like mentioned) could be introduced. Like "slower" phase-gates, no armor repair from armories, slower spawning from IPs. But only little debuffs! Not a complete black out for every building. I really think that could work better.
Here is a little tit for tat for you guys who didn't play NS1, typically the target structure was the advance armory to prevent marines from acquiring JP/Heavy armor's. If it went down and they already had jp/heavy's in the field it would prevent them purchasing more till the new armory finished upgrading to a AA.
Now in NS2 the only structures that matter at strong holds(Tech Points) powernode>obs if PG,Obs, CC are at location. Now, if the location doesn't have a CC then you can just focus the phase gate; the down side to this is marines normally mine up the phase gates but not the power.
Bile bomb should be left alone it is not the problem. Forward marine holds(that aren't Tech points) some times can only be brought down by bile bomb. Typically the best strategies for marines is to create a forward strong hold and siege out aliens strong hold(hive). In a majority of games I play with decent aliens that have 2-3 craigs around their hive you are pretty much forced to Arc out the hive.
Even watching some of these scrims that are posted it seems to be the only viable option for marines. The difference in those small 6v6 matches is the marines never stray that far from their PG and aliens have such small numbers it is very hard for them to do the ninja lametactic. Another reason I have stated that those matches should be bumped up to 8v8 because no one but a small number of players play at those player count numbers. Which UWE seems to be balancing the game around.
Back in NS1, if the comm electrified an RT, he got ejected pronto. What saved NS1 RTs from being harassed was marine pressure on alien RTs or hives, and mines. Sound familiar?
(of course, even if marines were pushed back to one base, it was just a matter of activating turtle mode and farming the aliens until HA HMGs)
This is an idea I can get behind... agree on all counts. I would rather see the 'power' node be turned into something like an 'Uplink Node'. This Uplink Node connects the Tech Point to the marine's main ship in orbit (not the dinky little dropship). The main ship beams down a constant stream of nanites (hey, work with me here) to this Uplink Node.
Reduce the Uplink Node to half of its current armor or something.
So, as long as you have one tech point with one comm station, you have basic power to your structures anywhere on the map.
- ALL STRUCTURES: 50% longer to build
- Armory - heals HP, but does not repair armor. Advanced armory cannot be researched.
- Arms Lab - research is 25% slower
- Observatory - radius is 25% smaller, research is 25% slower distress beacon beeps 4 times instead of 3
- Phase Gate - takes 50% longer for the phase gate to transport you through
- Prototype Lab - research is 50% slower
- Infantry Portal - marines spawn in 20% slower than normal
- Robotics Factory - all units take 25% longer to manufacture, cannot research ARCs
Basically the Uplink Node makes the marine structures more efficient (ie. normal operation), but it is NOT required except for the key upgrades (upgrades will be kept if the Uplink Node gets destroyed). You can do a ninja PG without an Uplink Node built, but it takes 50% longer to build and 50% longer to gather your marines through that gate. If the Uplink Node is built and destroyed later, the room will go dark as usual then turn into red emergency lighting.
Of course, Uplink Nodes give their bonuses for the room they're built in, independent of other rooms.
This makes it so that aliens will coordinate to hit the Uplink Node first before a base rush to debuff the marines in that room (PG reinforcements come in 50% slower, respawning marines take longer to spawn back, beacons do an additional beep before working). But at least marines still have a fighting chance to maintain that base. Oh and reduce the repair cooldown to 2 seconds instead of 5.
NS1 was very balanced. 3.2 is as close to perfectly balanced as a game this complex can hope to be. Certainly NS1 is more balanced than NS2. However, it took 5 years for it to get that way.
I think any NS1 veteran would agree.
It was somewhat like this in alpha, remember? I loved it like that.. round started and I went off to chew on already built power nodes around the map.. making things pitch dark.
The thing I anticipated the most before alpha was released was the dynamic lighting engine providing amazing meta games based on light available. As in design the aliens to utilize the dark etc.
Unfortunately the developers didnt like their hard work put into art assets being largely in the dark.
I always wanted to make a mod that capitalized on the dark, for those who enjoy that type of gameplay
Nano shield at 8 seconds with a 10 sec CD doesn't bother me; the Marine can still be killed.
A Marine team losing because a single skulk took out a Base (Tech point) had big issues. It takes one Marine to phase/spawn and aim at the Power Node. It's not the skulks fault the Marines either ignored or missed a single skulk on the Power Node. What team loses a game to a single skulk killing a Power Node and says, "This is a serious balance issue!"?
The notification system is not "...really bad...". It needs to be tweaked to be more helpful.
Less risk for waiting is not an absolute fact. Killing a marine (or two) while they build, shortens the time it takes to destroy the node, as well as prevents res gains from that node. Killing Marines before they reach the node helps prevent a potential forward base and reinforces map dominance.
Waiting allows to Marines to gain res from the node, potentially defend it (after it's attacked), and waste the Aliens time when they could have attacked sooner and moved on. It's not a risk free move.
Armlabs might be in a more accessible, out of LOS, area; with no w3/a3, Onos turns into a two shotting tank and Fades become assassins.
If you're looking at the Power Node/Extractor, while biting it, I'd pick you off from 10 meters away, then repair the Node/Extractor. Part of the game is the risk of being killed while attempting to destroy a structure. I'd expect you to be looking down the hall and listening for enemy foot steps; multiple foot steps and sounds of running.
The Comm Chair, Advanced Armory (if you're looking to hinder Prototype tech), the Armslab, Phase Gate (to either stop Marines from freely returning to base or to force the beacon). I don't understand how this is a question. Every game doesn't play out the same. Some games, Marines are on their toes, phasing through when a structure flashes red once. Some games, three skulks can silence/stealth a power node (it's not easy and satisfying).
As a lone Gorge attacking the marine's main base, I will almost always focus on the advanced armory. Not only is it one of the most expensive structures in the base in terms of resources, but time as well.
You sound as if you disagreed with me, even though our posts are in full agreement.
There are plenty of examples on the previous page. Obs, arms lab, proto, AA, even the CC, they're all good under different circumstances.
Also, I think marines should have 10 bullets in their clip. Afterall, if you can't kill a skulk in 10 bullets you "have no idea how to play the game" and should give your slot to better people.
How hard do the marines have to be before it's hard enough for the players of the community? If marines had only had 10 bullets in the clip from the start would that have been enjoyable for most people? It's still winnable for marines but is it enjoyable and fun for marines to play that way?
I think most people agree at the minimum a better alarm system should be implemented for the power node (since it's bugged right now) and that'd be a good start. However, the 10-20 second death window is still quite extreme (In fact, the window is smaller because even if you kill the gorge(s) before that time, the acid DOT can still blow the power). I'm not saying we should remove Bilebomb but I think it's very unsatisfactory for 10-20s of intense combat to lead to a defeat because you were too busy fighting for your life.
It's an unforgiving mechanic that has no skill:resource:time based equivalent on the marines side and I believe the issue should be examined by the UWE team.
Killing marines does nothing to impact their economy. So they respawn 7 seconds later and bring a buddy. You've accomplished nothing but to draw attention to yourself and your objective. When they get back, you're dead (or gravely injured and fleeing) and the marines are moving ahead while you are out of the action. Furthermore, you have an marine extractor up that is pumping resources into the marine economy and marines who are on the alert to protect it. Congratulations, you've just given marines a small advantage.
In the beginning of the game, extractor takedowns are HUGE. If you can kill three (shortly after they are built) you cripple the marine team. Even if they can recover, that going to cost them a minute (of game time) to recover the resources for the lost extractor. That's a massive setback in the early game, and it will usually cost the marines the game.
With no electrification on extractors, the superior tactic is to take out the extractor first in the beginning of the game. In the mid/late game, go after marines, sure. At that point the impact to their resource pool is far less significant when you kill an single extractor. However, in the early game the extractors are the only target (aside from a base power node) that can effectively win you the game right off the bat.
Why do you think marines concede in the early game? It's not because a few of them got ganked on their way to a res node. It's because aliens took out too many of their early extractors and they have no res. Here are the problems with that.
#1. Power nodes are almost always in a better spot to attack, since they are on the periphery of a given room.
#2. The arms labs are almost always placed near where the command chair and IPs are. (not right beside, but closer than a power node) As such you are at immediate risk of death with nowhere to hide.
#3. The craptastic notification system won't show your power node attack on the map. (since power nodes don't blink when attacked like structures do) Furthermore, the audio notification (on the rare occasions when you get one) doesn't differentiate to indicate what is under attack. So it becomes difficult to see exactly what is under attack at a glance. That's a huge benefit.
#4. Most importantly, the difference in 'time to kill' between the power node and other structures is usually negligible. (except the Observatory, as I noted above, which can be considered a better target in narrow circumstances.) Why spend 24 seconds to kill a Proto Lab when that same 24 seconds will take out the power node?
Let's take a closer look, shall we?
Skulk: 75 per bite, each .45 of a second = 167 DPS
Kill times: (numbers rounded up/down to nearest second)
36 sec :CommandStation
29 sec :RoboticsFactory
27 sec :Extractor
24 sec :Power node
24 sec :AdvancedArmory (14 sec :Armory)
24 sec :PrototypeLab
22 sec :PhaseGate
15 sec :InfantryPortal
16 sec :ArmsLab
10 sec :Observatory
So... the ONLY structures that you could kill faster than a power node, are an IP, Obs and Arms Lab. Problem is, no one sticks their arms lab in an out of the way corner where it is hard to defend. Like the IP, it's usually within LOS of the Comm chair. So if push comes to shove, comm could jump out to protect it.
ANY other structure, would take just as long to kill, if not longer, than a power node. Why the heck would you chomp on the CC when it will take you 12 seconds more to kill it compared to the power node? Advanced Armory and Proto Lab? You can kill a power node in the SAME amount of time, and not only do you disable that structure, you disable ALL of them. Even the Phase Game dies as fast as the power node.
Sorry, but passing a power node to go chomp on the comm chair - which is right beside the IPs - is a suicide mission that will net you nothing against a team that you don't significantly outclass.
You took my remark too literally. My point was that you have to stay in one place, holding down your M1 key for almost 30 seconds, killing an inanimate object.
Standing around while you kill inanimate objects in a PvP game is boring and not fun.
keep in mind these structures all have waaay less health than a power node.