Minor Balancing tweaks towards Marines.
Lastdon
Join Date: 2012-06-29 Member: 153767Members
Join Date: 2012-06-29 Member: 153767Members
I think marines should retain their upgrades if they lose a base; by that I mean they should retain their weapons X/ armor X as long as they were alive while the upgrades persisted. Since aliens were adjusted allowing them to keep their upgrades even if they lose their hive or chamber it only seems logical the same should apply to marines.
Now the other problem I have noticed is power nodes. First off, the context I want people to look at this from is hive with 2-3 craigs healing it up, it takes quite a bit of fire power to take down a hive. Then there is marines power node it is just a joke 1-2 gorges will take down marines power with in 7-10 secs. This completely neuters marines VIA offensive push, because most of the time it requires a beacon to respond before the node goes down which also recalls the entire team. 1-3 marines can't come close to shutting down an alien strong hold (hive) nearly as easily. This problem is even more prevalent on higher population servers.
Solutions to the Power node lametactic, possibly allow macs to repair power nodes while taking damage.
Increase Tech points power node HP.
Feel free to post some other marine disparities or solutions to problems that you feel are prevalent in the current build.
Now the other problem I have noticed is power nodes. First off, the context I want people to look at this from is hive with 2-3 craigs healing it up, it takes quite a bit of fire power to take down a hive. Then there is marines power node it is just a joke 1-2 gorges will take down marines power with in 7-10 secs. This completely neuters marines VIA offensive push, because most of the time it requires a beacon to respond before the node goes down which also recalls the entire team. 1-3 marines can't come close to shutting down an alien strong hold (hive) nearly as easily. This problem is even more prevalent on higher population servers.
Solutions to the Power node lametactic, possibly allow macs to repair power nodes while taking damage.
Increase Tech points power node HP.
Feel free to post some other marine disparities or solutions to problems that you feel are prevalent in the current build.
Comments
Marines already retain weapons/jetpacks/exosuits as long as they are alive even when their second command post/prototype lab/armory is destroyed, so this feature is already properly mirrored. Marines keeping armor/weapon upgrades in addition to that would be a bit of an overkill.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that you can't say something's awry just because it's not the same for both teams.
For the first one, I wouldn't like to see marines retaining their upgrades if their only arms lab goes down, because it removes one tactic from the alien repertoire; the arms lab is relatively weak, and during a marine push a skulk or two might be able to take it down, making the marines on the field much weaker. Every feature that encourages the "What should I prioritise destroying when I'm in the marine base" -mentality is a good thing in my opinion. Power nodes have made this mentality a lot weaker, since more often than not it's the best thing to go for.
As for the power node lame tactic, I agree with you to some extent. It's way too easy for marines to lose a game they're winning if the commander isn't paying attention for 10 seconds. How to fix it, no idea if you want to keep the power node mechanic in the game.
I mean, who focuses the arms lab when hitting a marine base? And if the power node goes down in the marines main settlement, I think that no weapon and armour upgrades are the last of their worries. No game has been won or lost by this mechanic.
Marines don't get to keep their upgrades, but don't have to pay full cost to get them all back (only have to repurchase arms lab - or get the power back up).
Seems fair.
Keep in mind that anything the marines are researching is automatically refunded when the power goes down (not sure about if the structure goes down first, but I doubt it gives a refund in this scenario), whereas, aliens get no such refund.
If destroying the power would only unpower everything, but not disable researched upgrades, maybe the incentive to attack the arms lab over the power node would add a little more depth to base attacks.
2) It takes 1-2 marines to hold off 1-2 gorges taking your power node down. If you do an all-out push and don't spare any marines for roaming base defence, you're asking for trouble. Why do you not have any marines checking bases?
Honestly, I can't agree with any of those things being 'wrong' with the game!! The power nodes can be a bit of the weak side... maybe, but by far the biggest problem I have with them is that they don't alert you to being damaged unless a nearby structure is taking damage (in my experience, don't think I have the actual mechanic quite right there...).
Anti-corrosive armour:
Fortifies a Power Node with an extra layer of armour, reducing corrosive damage taken by x%.
Only tech points Power Nodes can be upgraded.
This way damage from other life forms will remain the same, which is fine right now.
Also, we could introduce diminishing return effects when multiple Gorges Bilebomb structures,
something like a max threshold of corrosive damage taken per second (it could be around 1,5 gorges bilebombing)
In the end, you shouldn't lose power in main base anyways, but i think this change could make base attacks a bit more interesting, and maybe the arms lab would then be prioritized over the power node in some cases.
The OP is right. Marines can lose to a guerrilla attack by only a few aliens, sometimes as little as 1-2 gorges. The reverse isn't true. That's not just asymmetric, that's imbalanced.
You can't consider it in a vacuum like that.
Sure, aliens can ninja down a power node even the marines aren't paying attention and are elsewhere at the time. Marines can build 15 ARCs and one shot a hive and every structure within 15 feet of it.
Both are examples of things that the other team simply cannot do.
I mean really if you think that 10-20pres should be able to end a game in 10 seconds when Marines are looking the other way... I'm not sure what to say.
15 ARCs would cost 225 Tres. 2-3 ARCs... 30-45 Tres, and they still won't take down a hive in 10 seconds.
Your post directly implied that the asymmetry lead to an imbalance. That the marines being unable to do something the aliens can made them strictly weaker. This simply is not true.
For example, if you made every marine weapon deal 10000 damage to other players, the "imbalance" you perceive would no longer exist, though all aspects of your base premise would still be present.
All I'm saying is that your central premise isn't strictly true. You interpreted the rest yourself.
You're trying to take a very specific argument and turn it into a general one in order to knock it down strawman style.
I shouldn't waste my time, but... I didn't say that all asymmetry leads to imbalance (though it is true you can't have imbalance with perfect symmetry). The argument is that no side should have the ability to end the game so quickly (or force a recall) with such a low investment. The Marines don't have this ability so it's a moot point. The Aliens do. They shouldn't. Period.
Maybe I overstated it a tad, but here are some baseless assertions that I will make to try and clarify my point.
1. They will never remove the gorges ability to do massive amounts of damage to structures very quickly.
2. They will never allow a vanilla marine (or a marine with less than 20 resources invested) to kill a hive as quickly as a gorge kills a power node.
3. This game will achieve respectable balance.
Considering your clarified position, am I correct in saying that, in your opinion, all 3 of these assertions cannot possibly be true?
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/128218/altbalance-by-stepahead
I know this is an asymmetrical game, so just take my next remark as an fictional example and not a proposal to do the same on the alien team.
What if aliens had a chamber, not unlike an upgrade chamber, and if marines killed it the aliens would see ALL of their upgrades go offline, along with things like crags, whips, shades in the hive. Oh, and all the eggs in that hive disappear if you kill that little chamber. Marines would never go after the hive, they would go after that little chamber. I bet they would win a LOT more often too!
The question begs to be asked, WHY do marines have such a huge "I win" button for aliens to press?
Oh god knows. I've seen so many good marine teams lose to power rush. If marines slightly outplay aliens all game they can still lose to a power rush, you have to do much better than the alien team to win.
The whole power mechanic needs a serious rethink, it could be amazing but currently it seems the worst part of the game.
Power node destruction is a good concept when it comes to taking down some outpost. But when you can shut down the whole base - that's pretty confusing. Especially, when the best way to counter it is stacking Armories aroung nodes.
You are completely wrong. No one ever focus the arms lab. Alien Tech point targets go like this (marines have 2 bases setup) powernode, obs, phase gates, CC. if they have only 1 you should be targeting the CC.
Now in regards to comparing said JP/Exo to aliens full upgrade retention, that is more inline with hey aliens don't lose their lifeforms hive abilities, but should lose chamber upgrades (carapace, silence, adrenaline, ex...) if that spur/type of hive is killed.
Marine's losing their base power shouldn't automatically mean GG, they should be given a chance to pull ahead even in a dire situation if played properly.
They even lowered arms lab health a while ago to make it more viable of a tactic.
If I'm an Onos I can try and solo rush the arms lab - marine comm usually doesn't get a panic attack when something else than the power is being attacked, and if I pull it off it means every marine dies out of 2 hits and their firepower doesn't even tickle you.
I don't think they lose the upgrade power instantly though. Would have to test it, but it doesn't feel like it.
I think gorges bile bomb is fine. Like I said simple fix would be to increase TECH POINT POWER NODES HP or allow mac's to repair nodes even though they are taking damage.
I am not. More often than not the arms lab is not the first priority, but there are moments when it is. If the whole marine team is pushing a hive and you're the only skulk going for the marine start, the best thing to go for is probably the arms lab. No matter what you are eating, the marine commander has to beacon if he's not confident enough to take on a skulk by himself, or a marine has to backpedal to a phase gate and you might have very well had time to finish the arms lab by then. Beacon is a victory in itself, and if no beacon, arms lab is the most useful building for you to get down. You have to take into account that an arms lab has about 1/3 the hp a power node or a CC has, so for a lonely skulk it's hopeless to try to bite these down before a marine jumps in to save the day.
The observatory is the other obvious option, but if you're really the only one in the base, killing the beacon machine will do you no good. You won't have time to destroy anything else before someone turns up.
The proto is also a good option for its sheer cost, the AA if they don't have a proto yet. But these are closer to end-game, arms lab is there from the early game.
Targeting the power node as a lonely skulk only draws attention, which is all and well, but I'd rather draw attention with something I actually have a small chance of destroying, rather than just for its own sake. The same thing with the CC, though getting it down is very rarely even useful, since marines usually have another hive spot with a second CC.
Also, this would force aliens to pick their targets and decide what is more valuable at the time, instead of just ALWAYS going for the Power Node.
Besides, whats wrong with requiring aliens to use teamwork to end a game (since marines a so much more dependant on teamwork).
low health (relative) in compared a CC.
further away usually from a PG, so more time to hit it.
easier to hide behind, so less bullets to be hit from.
If it does it still is a bit of res + some ups for newly spawned down the drain. There is no way in hell even a respectable pug commander lets you solo a CC.
(Comm chairs don't even need power)
Edit: Benson! : shakes fist:
What would be better would be a very obvious warning noise/voice over to all marines when the power node health at a tech point with a CC reaches 75%, 50%, 25% and 10%. This was you would at least know it is happening. Even if you are still left with the choice of beacon or not.