Hmm, I've got an idea. I can tweak skulks to be able to jump and wall jump normally, but not being able so spam jumping like horny rabbits. This way they'll keep most of their mobility and in addition to reduced glancing bites it's going to be pretty balanced.
Limiting skulks movement abilities like jumping will just piss a lot of people off, me included and especially with competitive players.
Your changes will just make it incredibly hard for early game Aliens to secure territory. Skulk movements do not need to be nerfed and is fine as is. The good aiming marines out there will just slaughter early game skulks even harder than they already do.
Movement will be almost as it was, except for inability to spam jumping.
Good aiming marine - is not a description for majority of players.
Yet it was a balanced decision cause skulks were getting a huge moving speed boost instead.
I know you're trying your best. I don't want to demotivate you. I'm just seeing a lot of buffs for defensive structures that favor a more "turtled" playstyle, and I don't think that's the right route to take.
I know you're trying your best. I don't want to demotivate you. I'm just seeing a lot of buffs for defensive structures that favor a more "turtled" playstyle, and I don't think that's the right route to take.
Movement will be almost as it was, except for inability to spam jumping.
.
I'll reiterate... that change will just piss a lot of people off from ever trying your mod.
I don't disagree with all your changes, like for example the backup power with radius or slightly stronger turrets (face it, the turrets now are almost useless.)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
To save you some time, internally we've tried bb nerfs of varying numbers. Don't do it more than 15% trust me. (Single gorge stacking might be looked at though, reducing ninja gorge damage and encouraging teamwork more but this would need better communication to the player)
Also tried severe skulk movement nerfs.. it made zero impact on early game map control despite high death rates.
I suggest looking at that link provided from neoken. Xarius provided a well organized doc giving potential reasons ... Like neoken I think #3 in his doc is the cause.
This is an admirable effort, Btw! I suggest feedback from here and polls being your source for knowledge of what to change.
Good luck! Keep that skin thick and your responses polite, and I think you'll do just fine. :-D
Sentries being highly effective ends up turning alien play into more PvE than PvP. Fighting 2 super turrets in every room is one of the most obnoxious things that one could ever think of.
One of the copies of the game I gave out, the person said to me "what is this, extractor warz?" Or you could call it 'power node warz'. NS1 was PvP, NS2 has been player versus environment more than anything.
Want PvP? Remove power nodes and electrify extractors. THEN you'll see PvP.
So your going to randomly change numbers off of anecdotal evidence and player opinion then test it on one server with likely the same people everytime?
Heyo that's what uwe already does but they have a bigger playtest team, more knowledge of the code, feedback from the majority of the public, and the ability to change stuff that you never could such as physics if needed.
So tell me why peoplle should waste their time with this.
If it shows to be a bad balance, I will change it very quickly. No problem. Considering your opinion.
This isn't how balancing a game works. You can't just throw in a bunch of changes based on personal preference, measure the win ratio, and then keep throwing more changes at it until it hits the magic 50/50. For one thing, stability is important to most players. Nobody wants to see a bunch of things changing back and forth willy nilly every week, which is why UWE doesn't make changes on that sort of timeframe. If you just keep making new mistakes and addressing them after the fact, players will simply get fed up and move on. That's why balance requires careful consideration to make the right fix the first time, and never do something you'll have to take back later.
This isn't how balancing a game works. You can't just throw in a bunch of changes based on personal preference, measure the win ratio, and then keep throwing more changes at it until it hits the magic 50/50.
With respect Zek, we need to remember that he *isn't* actually balancing the game. That's something only UWE can do. What he *is* doing is posting a mod, and the mod makes certain changes to the game. So what...? Either people play it or they don't. No one is forcing anyone to run it.
GISPBattle GorgeDenmarkJoin Date: 2004-03-20Member: 27460Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester, Forum staff
edited February 2013
Awesome to see people modding
But balance is extreamly difficult, hell the big players like Blizzard is are making balance changes constantly, and you would think they had got it right after several years? But nope, as people learn the new values, the metagame changes, and then balancing starts all over again.
When adding new content, for instance a new unit, upgrade or buildings. Changes are needed again. (Allso a large factor in why huge content patches requires alot of testing, its not allways just about numbers in the code)
You should rename it from AltBalance to "BigTracer'sVagueOpinionOfBalance".
The effort is appreciated, so I'm trying hard not to be rude, but you're just enacting what you think would balance the game in theory, with little thought given to the end result. There is nothing about this that would allow us to "enjoy playing NS2 once again" or "balance" the game.
What would you suggest? That he create a mod which reflects someone else's thoughts on what would balance the game?
That's valuable info. Thank you!
I don't want to brake skulks map control, that's the key. I only want them stop jumping around marines dealing random bites and eventually winning.
Sentries being highly effective ends up turning alien play into more PvE than PvP. Fighting 2 super turrets in every room is one of the most obnoxious things that one could ever think of.
One of the copies of the game I gave out, the person said to me "what is this, extractor warz?" Or you could call it 'power node warz'. NS1 was PvP, NS2 has been player versus environment more than anything.
Want PvP? Remove power nodes and electrify extractors. THEN you'll see PvP.
I'll adjust sentries a little more to be like old sentries, but absolutely efficient. Not stronger, just being able to shoot that smile of the doggie's face.
This isn't how balancing a game works. You can't just throw in a bunch of changes based on personal preference, measure the win ratio, and then keep throwing more changes at it until it hits the magic 50/50.
Actually, I have my very special left hand, that gives me random numbers for decision making.
Stability will come until the end of the week. I don't consider 50/50 to be the only balance index.
Thank you guys, I got your points. Now I gotta read some other threads, meditate over it and balance it. Don't give up hopes.
You should rename it from AltBalance to "BigTracer'sVagueOpinionOfBalance".
The effort is appreciated, so I'm trying hard not to be rude, but you're just enacting what you think would balance the game in theory, with little thought given to the end result. There is nothing about this that would allow us to "enjoy playing NS2 once again" or "balance" the game.
What would you suggest? That he create a mod which reflects someone else's thoughts on what would balance the game?
You mean like the people who do it professionally specifically for the game we purchased. It's weird, letting them continuing to take their measured and balanced approached will prevent ten different "balance mods" with each a different take, attributes and execution.
BigTracer is receptive is criticism and input, that's appreciated and will be useful for him moving forward. That being said, I still think it's a pointless, inherently flawed endeavor.
So your going to randomly change numbers off of anecdotal evidence and player opinion then test it on one server with likely the same people everytime?
Heyo that's what uwe already does but they have a bigger playtest team, more knowledge of the code, feedback from the majority of the public, and the ability to change stuff that you never could such as physics if needed.
So tell me why peoplle should waste their time with this.
they have a bigger playtest team
-Yet we don't have balance
more knowledge of the code
-How does that help balance? Or I can do stuff, or I can't. I can.
-feedback from the majority of the public
Which contradicts itself most of the time.
-and the ability to change stuff that you never could such as physics if needed.
I like current physics.
The difference is UWE guys need to do a LOT of stuff while working on NS2. Have you seen those bug fixed lists? I don't need to. Also, I didn't create NS2 so it's easier for me to decide with cold mind.
You'll see result in a week. And you're gonna like it.
People are approaching this as if, once UWE sees this thread, they are going to stop trying to balance the game altogether and just leave it up to BigTracer. Its just a random mod people. You play it if you want to, you don't if you... don't.
Furthermore, this mod doesn't have to bring about balance at all. Hell, it could change the balance ratio from 35/65 to 80/20, and it will still teach us something. The important thing to note is that weird things have weird affects on balance. You may think power nodes!? Who needs them! They are what is breaking the game, just remove them and everything will be fine! And upon removing them the game stops being 35/65 and starts being 90/10, and then you say WOAH maybe we should hold off on that and try something else.
Even if a series of changes completely destroys the late game, it may end up perfectly balancing the early game. That obviously is far from an ideal situation, but at least it teaches you something. This kind of "balance work" can be invaluable as long as you are attentive and open minded to every change and its repercussions.
You should rename it from AltBalance to "BigTracer'sVagueOpinionOfBalance".
The effort is appreciated, so I'm trying hard not to be rude, but you're just enacting what you think would balance the game in theory, with little thought given to the end result. There is nothing about this that would allow us to "enjoy playing NS2 once again" or "balance" the game.
What would you suggest? That he create a mod which reflects someone else's thoughts on what would balance the game?
You mean like the people who do it professionally specifically for the game we purchased. It's weird, letting them continuing to take their measured and balanced approached will prevent ten different "balance mods" with each a different take, attributes and execution.
BigTracer is receptive is criticism and input, that's appreciated and will be useful for him moving forward. That being said, I still think it's a pointless, inherently flawed endeavor.
I perfectly understand your precautions, Omar. Yet we don't have countless mods around and I'm gonna proceed with this one.
You should rename it from AltBalance to "BigTracer'sVagueOpinionOfBalance".
The effort is appreciated, so I'm trying hard not to be rude, but you're just enacting what you think would balance the game in theory, with little thought given to the end result. There is nothing about this that would allow us to "enjoy playing NS2 once again" or "balance" the game.
What would you suggest? That he create a mod which reflects someone else's thoughts on what would balance the game?
You mean like the people who do it professionally specifically for the game we purchased. It's weird, letting them continuing to take their measured and balanced approached will prevent ten different "balance mods" with each a different take, attributes and execution.
This isn't something that he can do.
Unless you are suggesting that he do nothing, in which case, you realize that you can never be seen as "the good guy" with that attitude.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that if I went through these forums for no more than 5 minutes, I would find tens of posts by you complaining about the balance choices UWE have made thus far.
If you don't like the choices the professionals make, and you don't want anybody else to try, what do you want?
I don't see what has some people bugged about this. It's just a mod. Either people will like it and play it or they won't like it and won't play it. Modding is part of this game, and people are free to mod what they want. No one is forcing anyone to play it.
So your going to randomly change numbers off of anecdotal evidence and player opinion then test it on one server with likely the same people everytime?
Heyo that's what uwe already does but they have a bigger playtest team, more knowledge of the code, feedback from the majority of the public, and the ability to change stuff that you never could such as physics if needed.
So tell me why peoplle should waste their time with this.
they have a bigger playtest team
-Yet we don't have balance
more knowledge of the code
-How does that help balance? Or I can do stuff, or I can't. I can.
-feedback from the majority of the public
Which contradicts itself most of the time.
-and the ability to change stuff that you never could such as physics if needed.
I like current physics.
The difference is UWE guys need to do a LOT of stuff while working on NS2. Have you seen those bug fixed lists? I don't need to. Also, I didn't create NS2 so it's easier for me to decide with cold mind.
You'll see result in a week. And you're gonna like it.
All I see in your mod post in the modding section is the balance thoughts of a player who likes sentries, mines, and building clog 'forts'. Oh and skulks who jump/dodge.
All I see in your mod post in the modding section is the balance thoughts of a player who likes sentries, mines, and building clog 'forts'. Oh and skulks who jump/dodge.
So your going to randomly change numbers off of anecdotal evidence and player opinion then test it on one server with likely the same people everytime?
Heyo that's what uwe already does but they have a bigger playtest team, more knowledge of the code, feedback from the majority of the public, and the ability to change stuff that you never could such as physics if needed.
So tell me why peoplle should waste their time with this.
they have a bigger playtest team
-Yet we don't have balance
more knowledge of the code
-How does that help balance? Or I can do stuff, or I can't. I can.
-feedback from the majority of the public
Which contradicts itself most of the time.
-and the ability to change stuff that you never could such as physics if needed.
I like current physics.
The difference is UWE guys need to do a LOT of stuff while working on NS2. Have you seen those bug fixed lists? I don't need to. Also, I didn't create NS2 so it's easier for me to decide with cold mind.
You'll see result in a week. And you're gonna like it.
All I see in your mod post in the modding section is the balance thoughts of a player who likes sentries, mines, and building clog 'forts'. Oh and skulks who jump/dodge.
What did you expect to see? Someone who likes 5 things? Or maybe only 3? I don't understand.
Or were you expecting to see someone who likes 4 things that you also like?
You'll see result in a week. And you're gonna like it.
Just pointing out that even if you can achieve a 50/50 win/loss ratio for aliens/marines through "dumb" tweaks, lots of people will not like it..... Any joe schmo can come up with a series of tweaks and to "balance" the game, but doing it in a way that keeps the game fun and doens't alienate your playerbase is the real trick.
For example your belief that skulks shouldn't be jumping around..... ridiculous. I will tell you this from experience of other online games... any time player movement is limited, many people do not like the change and the resulting experience is overall less fun. If UWE went and announced right now that skulk jumping was going to be limited, they would alienate a large section of their playerbase and they would be up in arms about it.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that if I went through these forums for no more than 5 minutes, I would find tens of posts by you complaining about the balance choices UWE have made thus far.
Good luck on that one, guy.
In fact, why don't you go ahead and spend your time doing that.
I would say the biggest problem with clogs is the physics system if anything. Marines seems to be able to walk up and over all kinds of surfaces that defy reality or logic.
While I agree in terms of world geometry (that slope to the vent in skylights lol), clogs seem like if IRL they would be traversable/ you could climb up them and squeeze through gaps in them as they seem quite... Squidgy
But I enjoy NS2 now. What is this "once again" stuff?
I like seeing people make mods and I applaud your effort. It is good to see the community putting work into the game.
That said, I don't agree with a lot of what you are doing. I would never try a mod that nerfed skulk jumping. Have you ever played against a good marine? The turrets change is also not a good idea IMO. Turrets are already really good when used correctly. They don't defend stuff on their own but are really good with a marine standing next to them. Neither side should have automated defenses that can shut players down by themselves. The clogs change would also be too much. There aren't many places you can't block with 10. More than 10 would just be overkill. Then there are the gorges that place them all on power nodes so you can't build or cover important structures. I don't want to sit there hitting clogs for 5 minutes.
Comments
Movement will be almost as it was, except for inability to spam jumping.
Good aiming marine - is not a description for majority of players.
Yet it was a balanced decision cause skulks were getting a huge moving speed boost instead.
Allrighty. I'll come up with more bright ideas.
Some good points being made in there.
I'll reiterate... that change will just piss a lot of people off from ever trying your mod.
I don't disagree with all your changes, like for example the backup power with radius or slightly stronger turrets (face it, the turrets now are almost useless.)
Also tried severe skulk movement nerfs.. it made zero impact on early game map control despite high death rates.
I suggest looking at that link provided from neoken. Xarius provided a well organized doc giving potential reasons ... Like neoken I think #3 in his doc is the cause.
This is an admirable effort, Btw! I suggest feedback from here and polls being your source for knowledge of what to change.
Good luck! Keep that skin thick and your responses polite, and I think you'll do just fine. :-D
Want PvP? Remove power nodes and electrify extractors. THEN you'll see PvP.
Heyo that's what uwe already does but they have a bigger playtest team, more knowledge of the code, feedback from the majority of the public, and the ability to change stuff that you never could such as physics if needed.
So tell me why peoplle should waste their time with this.
Players should try it (before judging), rather than theory craft it to death. It's not like this a patch, it's a mod, being worked on by one person.
This isn't how balancing a game works. You can't just throw in a bunch of changes based on personal preference, measure the win ratio, and then keep throwing more changes at it until it hits the magic 50/50. For one thing, stability is important to most players. Nobody wants to see a bunch of things changing back and forth willy nilly every week, which is why UWE doesn't make changes on that sort of timeframe. If you just keep making new mistakes and addressing them after the fact, players will simply get fed up and move on. That's why balance requires careful consideration to make the right fix the first time, and never do something you'll have to take back later.
But balance is extreamly difficult, hell the big players like Blizzard is are making balance changes constantly, and you would think they had got it right after several years? But nope, as people learn the new values, the metagame changes, and then balancing starts all over again.
When adding new content, for instance a new unit, upgrade or buildings. Changes are needed again. (Allso a large factor in why huge content patches requires alot of testing, its not allways just about numbers in the code)
What would you suggest? That he create a mod which reflects someone else's thoughts on what would balance the game?
I'll get rid of skulk's jump spamming this way or another. They should not being able to do that.
That's valuable info. Thank you!
I don't want to brake skulks map control, that's the key. I only want them stop jumping around marines dealing random bites and eventually winning.
I'll adjust sentries a little more to be like old sentries, but absolutely efficient. Not stronger, just being able to shoot that smile of the doggie's face.
Actually, I have my very special left hand, that gives me random numbers for decision making.
Stability will come until the end of the week. I don't consider 50/50 to be the only balance index.
Thank you guys, I got your points. Now I gotta read some other threads, meditate over it and balance it. Don't give up hopes.
BigTracer is receptive is criticism and input, that's appreciated and will be useful for him moving forward. That being said, I still think it's a pointless, inherently flawed endeavor.
they have a bigger playtest team
-Yet we don't have balance
more knowledge of the code
-How does that help balance? Or I can do stuff, or I can't. I can.
-feedback from the majority of the public
Which contradicts itself most of the time.
-and the ability to change stuff that you never could such as physics if needed.
I like current physics.
The difference is UWE guys need to do a LOT of stuff while working on NS2. Have you seen those bug fixed lists? I don't need to. Also, I didn't create NS2 so it's easier for me to decide with cold mind.
You'll see result in a week. And you're gonna like it.
Furthermore, this mod doesn't have to bring about balance at all. Hell, it could change the balance ratio from 35/65 to 80/20, and it will still teach us something. The important thing to note is that weird things have weird affects on balance. You may think power nodes!? Who needs them! They are what is breaking the game, just remove them and everything will be fine! And upon removing them the game stops being 35/65 and starts being 90/10, and then you say WOAH maybe we should hold off on that and try something else.
Even if a series of changes completely destroys the late game, it may end up perfectly balancing the early game. That obviously is far from an ideal situation, but at least it teaches you something. This kind of "balance work" can be invaluable as long as you are attentive and open minded to every change and its repercussions.
I perfectly understand your precautions, Omar. Yet we don't have countless mods around and I'm gonna proceed with this one.
This isn't something that he can do.
Unless you are suggesting that he do nothing, in which case, you realize that you can never be seen as "the good guy" with that attitude.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that if I went through these forums for no more than 5 minutes, I would find tens of posts by you complaining about the balance choices UWE have made thus far.
If you don't like the choices the professionals make, and you don't want anybody else to try, what do you want?
All I see in your mod post in the modding section is the balance thoughts of a player who likes sentries, mines, and building clog 'forts'. Oh and skulks who jump/dodge.
It's outdated
What did you expect to see? Someone who likes 5 things? Or maybe only 3? I don't understand.
Or were you expecting to see someone who likes 4 things that you also like?
Just pointing out that even if you can achieve a 50/50 win/loss ratio for aliens/marines through "dumb" tweaks, lots of people will not like it..... Any joe schmo can come up with a series of tweaks and to "balance" the game, but doing it in a way that keeps the game fun and doens't alienate your playerbase is the real trick.
For example your belief that skulks shouldn't be jumping around..... ridiculous. I will tell you this from experience of other online games... any time player movement is limited, many people do not like the change and the resulting experience is overall less fun. If UWE went and announced right now that skulk jumping was going to be limited, they would alienate a large section of their playerbase and they would be up in arms about it.
Good luck on that one, guy.
In fact, why don't you go ahead and spend your time doing that.
I think you underestimate my determination
I like seeing people make mods and I applaud your effort. It is good to see the community putting work into the game.
That said, I don't agree with a lot of what you are doing. I would never try a mod that nerfed skulk jumping. Have you ever played against a good marine? The turrets change is also not a good idea IMO. Turrets are already really good when used correctly. They don't defend stuff on their own but are really good with a marine standing next to them. Neither side should have automated defenses that can shut players down by themselves. The clogs change would also be too much. There aren't many places you can't block with 10. More than 10 would just be overkill. Then there are the gorges that place them all on power nodes so you can't build or cover important structures. I don't want to sit there hitting clogs for 5 minutes.