schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
when you concede it should go into a last man standing type thing, so at least it feels like you have caused the victory, instead of that unsatisfying text
Do you guys think it would be possible to assign a definitive "power score" to a team, based on a number of different variables?
This is typically out of the question for most RTS games, such as SC2, simply because of the vast number of buildings, upgrades, units, game states, it just wouldn't be feasible. I think that NS2 is streamlined enough that it might just be applicable though.
So what this would entail is assigning an overall score to a team based on what assets they have at their disposal.
For example:
Marines get level 1 guns: their score goes up by 10
Marines get level 2 guns: their score goes up by 20
Marines research shotguns: their score goes up by 15
Aliens research Crag hive, their score goes up by 5
Aliens research carapace, their score goes up by 15
Aliens drop a second hive, their score goes up by 25
More complex functionality could be added with certain tech or upgrades scaling in conjunction with others. For example, getting Exo tech would add 20 points, but Exo tech accompanied by level 3 armour would modify that to 30 points.
As I said, doing this for a dedicated RTS game wouldn't be feasible, as there would be far too many combinations that would need definitive point assignments. In NS2, however, I think that all necessary point assignments could be done quite quickly.
What this could then be used for is a prompt for forfeiting. Nothing forceful, nothing suggestive, merely a prompt. If one teams power score was to exceed the others by a certain threshold, all players in the game could be asked if they want the game to end.
concede is great. it finally gets rid of those awful scenarios where the newbs on your team try to turtle despite having 0 chance to come back. that alone makes it worth it. you have the occasional circumstance where a team concedes too early, but then another game starts, so what.
the only people that would be truly mad at a feature like this are really bad players that actually enjoy fighting against insurmountable odds and/or don't know when the game is beyond winnable
I play an hour or two per night and can count on one hand how many games have been played through to their natural conclusion since concede was introduced. It annoys me as either team and whether we are winning or losing. I have had some great games where we lost. So what if you do. We play for fun yes? Or just for the win to boost our egos? I hope your answer is fun or what is the point of playing games in the first place?! I see people shouting, raging and hurling abuse and giving up over a bunch of pixels on a monitor. Its meant to be entertainment.
I completely agree, I guess you could think of it as us becoming more like Black Ops Players, in an egotistical sense, like how they kill you, then shout at you "hahaha i killed you ner ner ner ner"
During the hours I have played NS2 I have seen some long epic fights with amazing comebacks for both teams but fear those are a thing of the past as people are giving up too easily. Played a game through the week where our comm insisted we concede because at the 4 minute mark we "only" had 4 RTs and didn't have a second CC. I played a game where at about the 8 minute mark someone said "Fade in Data Core, we might as well concede". And they did. Even though marines had 2 CCs and over half the map in our control.
UW have made an amazing game in NS2. Its a shame that since concede was put in, most new players will never get to see or play as Onos or Exo or any of the later game stuff as games don't often last more than ten minutes these days if that. And they certainly wont get in the practise as higher life forms or Marines as the games never last long enough so new players especially will never get better.
I agree and am glad more people have responded to the thread with the same mindset.
I play 5-a-side football every Saturday morning. We play for an hour sometimes more. Sometimes one team runs away with it and after even 30 minutes or less it seems that the game is lost or won. But I have never never seen a day where one team just stops playing or walks off in a rage because they are losing at any point in the game. That is because we play for fun and always to the natural end of the game. Why cant we do this in NS2, win or lose? And yes, often the team miles behind start scoring goals and sometimes end up winning. That certainly would never happen if one team just gave up and left.
Solutions?
This is exactly right, you don't go start a game, only to end the game as soon as anyone on the team says "concede" into their mic. As I said before don't start something if you will not finish it. You might learn some new skills if you play it out Its a strategy game, and you wont learn strategy unless practiced.
At least make the point at which the option to concede is longer. Say 20-30 minutes and stop the marine comm recycling important builds as not only is that not democratic but its also open to abuse.
Sal
Agreed longer the better if it must stay in place.
Well you simply cant win every game. If people only play to win then they are missing the point of games which is to have fun regardless.
My football example was simply just that....an example. If people gave up on everything so easily well nothing would be achieved in their lives. And I was talking about 5-a-side football where games teams dont finish like 3-2 in 11 a side. Its a high scoring smaller scale game where games often finish for eg: 36-29. I have played games where one team is being beaten by 20 or more goals but dont just walk off in a rage because they are losing.
Sal
That's not a fair comparison, in football the team doesn't get mechanically better than the other when they are winning, the team which shows better play wins.
NS2 is a snowbally game, it simply reaches a point where comebacks are impossible to happen without major mistakes.
I do think concede is too abrupt. There should be a killing period for the winning team at least, TF2-style.
The main issue though is just that games take too long to end after being decided. That's not a problem with concede - conceding is better than the alternative of being forced to play out hopeless games.
Play a game where you're clearly losing or keep playing until the bitter end. I prefer not to beat my head against the wall personally. Once 10 minutes go by and there is no armor on marines and fades are in abundance... Yea it's game over. Likewise, if aliens only have 2 hives and no higher lifeforms and the marines have jp's and full upgrades, it's pretty much over.
in this game, concede is necessary. Because (90% of the time) there is a point where either aliens or marines simply cannot overcome the other team. Usually by resource and hive control. It's either concede or quit... it's a sad necessity, but we have to have it.... if only the game allowed a way for the other team to make a comeback...
Play a game where you're clearly losing or keep playing until the bitter end. I prefer not to beat my head against the wall personally. Once 10 minutes go by and there is no armor on marines and fades are in abundance... Yea it's game over. Likewise, if aliens only have 2 hives and no higher lifeforms and the marines have jp's and full upgrades, it's pretty much over.
I can understand where your coming from, you don't like loosing, you play to win. I don't mean to sound rude but by playing the games out people get better at aiming and if you have a painful game then you're more likely to play better the next round and learn how to strategically win rather than have a repeat of that painful game time and time again.
I don't see a problem with conceding for the losing team. We had F4 before. It's no different.
I do see a problem in that I notice conceding happening earlier than F4 used to happen. I don't know if that's actually true, it's just my perception. I would need to see data to verify it.
Here's my idea. If a team concedes, and it should be at least 2/3 of the team, then the game ends, but doesn't end. What happens is all the marines put down their guns, or all the aliens put down their teeth. That team can no longer attack and do damage. The winning team gets to walk through the map and shoot everything that is defenseless. This prevents the conceding team from ruining your exo/onos fun since you still get to smash everything. It shouldn't take more than a minute, and will provide many hilarious moments that are true to the spirit of NS.
Here's my idea. If a team concedes, and it should be at least 2/3 of the team, then the game ends, but doesn't end. What happens is all the marines put down their guns, or all the aliens put down their teeth. That team can no longer attack and do damage. The winning team gets to walk through the map and shoot everything that is defenseless.
So you propose the team that has already had to swallow their pride and concede should stand around for target practice? Seriously?
Concede is in the game since the game mechanics are broken to the extent that people can be stuck in a game they can't win. Fix that problem and you will never have any games where people concede.
Play a game where you're clearly losing or keep playing until the bitter end. I prefer not to beat my head against the wall personally. Once 10 minutes go by and there is no armor on marines and fades are in abundance... Yea it's game over. Likewise, if aliens only have 2 hives and no higher lifeforms and the marines have jp's and full upgrades, it's pretty much over.
And conceding only makes the problem worse IMO. Think about it, if your team keeps loosing, and you just start a new round they wont have that time to talk amongst each other about what they done wrong (while getting pwned, and possibly learning how to aim which is needed lol) , instead you get the same thing over and over.
First, there are many times in the game when you reach a point where you can NOT win. This is usually the marines, but aliens have it too. The problem is that when a team is no longer able to win, the game should END. If your team's actions have caused irreparable damage to your chances to win, then the game should end.
Or we think about changing the game so concede is not necessary, I will go into that later.
No one likes playing a game they know they are going to lose.
This was not the mentality of NS1 players, we had FUN fighting to death, laughing to the end. Once again instead of a band aid fix, how about we fix the issue.
For example, if - for the marines - losing your second comm chair and tech point means you have lost, then end the game.
We could try removing the need for power nodes, that would help significantly, I remember having nothing but one CC and one keen player left, killed all 4 skulks surrounding the CC, and built an IP. Ofcourse we should discuss other things if people want to fix the game rather than accept band aid solutions.
I'm quite happy to use concede in games where I know the team is fighting for something they will never have. When you have an alien team with 4 Onos and you're down to your last tech point, what is the value in playing for another 15 minutes when you will still lose?
Once again, I'm quite happy to work towards fixing the issues, I'm guessing you haven't played much NS1 (at least a year) back in the days (before combat)?
Secondly, NS2 has very little forgiveness. For example, if on the marine team you build three extractors, and they are killed within a minute of being built, the game is over. You won't recover from that since you are now about 5 minutes behind the alien team and they likely have 5+ harvesters. It's over, and you haven't even reached the 5 minute mark in the game. Or aliens have rushed your spawn and taken out your IP and armory before your team can get back, and when they are busy rebuilding the aliens kill both marine extractors that have been built. That's game over folks. Is there some reason to play for 15 minutes until you get rolled by an Onos parade?
All of those issues can be overcome we just need to have a different mindset, maybe I am too hung up on the past, I do however believe band-aid solutions are not the answer to anything in life and we need more in-depth discussion from seasoned players.
Here's my idea. If a team concedes, and it should be at least 2/3 of the team, then the game ends, but doesn't end. What happens is all the marines put down their guns, or all the aliens put down their teeth. That team can no longer attack and do damage. The winning team gets to walk through the map and shoot everything that is defenseless. This prevents the conceding team from ruining your exo/onos fun since you still get to smash everything. It shouldn't take more than a minute, and will provide many hilarious moments that are true to the spirit of NS.
Or, rather - When the team concedes you no longer spawn. Say marines concede -> Aliens get a screen note that says something like "Hunt down the remaining marines" -whatever, and marines get a note "it's hopeless, no more reinforcements, fall back" -or something, then marines get a chance to last-stand (maybe show the name of marines still alive on screen) or just hide, until they're all dead or cc's are dead. (No building anymore either, ofc)
Also Matsos idea in another thread was great, something about a retreat kinda function with a draw or something.
I'm not a huge fan of concede, but it has its place. It does help end turtles and shortens games where the aliens get locked on one hive but the marines won't move in for some reason. Its good, but man, it irks me when it gets used way too early.
Just talked a group of marines out of conceding a game that was going very badly on Docking. They game was crazy back and forth, aliens had the early game by far. All we had was Pg in cafe and PG in departures. Comm tried building up cafe but they crushed it. They also took out departures PG. We almost conceded right there, one base, 2 RTs, 10 min or so in and only weapons 1. Caf was reclaimed for the RT and some guys got departures back under control. A PG in ballcourt let us push locker. That failed but we pushed Gen. While we took gen we lost ballcourt. They aliens raided terminal, killed power, CC proto and some other things we before we could respond. WE pushed em out and got it secured again. For a while it was some hardcore back and forth. We'd make a good push on cafe, they'd nearly knock out gen, ect. Termainal must have fallen at least twice more. We got ballcourt back up, and were jsut starting to make progress on locker and cafe at the same time. then the server died. had the sever not crashed I think we would have pulled it off since we had just taken out the last onos they had.
It was a great game.
A game that almost didn't happen because of concede.
thefonz, you did the right thing. In terms of concede, I will myself concede that some people jump the gun too quickly, there's no doubt. However, like you said, it has it's place. And the beauty of it is, like I've said twice now, it is controlled completely but US. THIS is what people need to realize in this discussion. Coming to the boards laying out all your bad experiences about it is just an outlet, it accomplishes nothing in the grand scheme. Take your angst, organize yourself and get your point across to other players like thefonz did. Then, and only then, will you do something about it.
I'm not a fan of concede, but I'm not a fan of endless turtle matches either. So concede is an option to end a game which is necessary because it's better than recycling or F4ing.
I don't know who's idea it was or where it was posted on this forum, but I'd like to see a concede option for PUBS, which says "Ok, we see that we are losing, so now finish it, enemy!".
In other words: aliens vote concede -> timer starts in which marines have 10/XX minutes to win the game (with some buff for marines or nerf for aliens, but that should be decided by the devs or the balance playtesters) and aliens must defend their hives (turtle game with a time frame) -> when the marines are sucessfull, they win, when they are not, it's a draw.
timer alerts could say something like: "escape shuttle coming!" (marines) or "alien hive evolving some legs!" or "gorge tunnel to kharaa homeworld in the build!" (aliens).
(that's not my idea, someone posted this somewhere in the forum, all the credits to her/him)
What you are suggesting would only encourage turtling even more! Screw up earlygame then everyone concede and turtle in base. Great proposition!
I agree that the rounds end too quickly with concede. One of the funny things in NS1 was playing hide and seek after the last hive/cc was killed. Since each side had a wallhack this hardly ever took a lot of time but there were some epic moments of aliens hiding in vents with dcs, playing "Stayin alive" over the voicecomm :P
Concede is not a problem, its how its used in the game, i think it should only become available after a certain event in the game, like aliens get 3rd hive for x amount of time, or aliens go down to 1 hive after x amount of time etc there for if there is an epic ending or comeback for either side it can happen, and players wont vote concede right away,
Or take it out and go back to NS1 style of F4'ing/ Recycle to IPs
Concede has spoilt NS2 for me. It was bad enough with all the players going f4 and comms recycling everything because "they" thought the game was over regardless how the rest of their team felt about it. I have never known people giving up so easily in any other game.
I play an hour or two per night and can count on one hand how many games have been played through to their natural conclusion since concede was introduced. It annoys me as either team and whether we are winning or losing. I have had some great games where we lost. So what if you do. We play for fun yes? Or just for the win to boost our egos? I hope your answer is fun or what is the point of playing games in the first place?! I see people shouting, raging and hurling abuse and giving up over a bunch of pixels on a monitor. Its meant to be entertainment.
During the hours I have played NS2 I have seen some long epic fights with amazing comebacks for both teams but fear those are a thing of the past as people are giving up too easily. Played a game through the week where our comm insisted we concede because at the 4 minute mark we "only" had 4 RTs and didn't have a second CC. I played a game where at about the 8 minute mark someone said "Fade in Data Core, we might as well concede". And they did. Even though marines had 2 CCs and over half the map in our control.
UW have made an amazing game in NS2. Its a shame that since concede was put in, most new players will never get to see or play as Onos or Exo or any of the later game stuff as games don't often last more than ten minutes these days if that. And they certainly wont get in the practise as higher life forms or Marines as the games never last long enough so new players especially will never get better.
I play 5-a-side football every Saturday morning. We play for an hour sometimes more. Sometimes one team runs away with it and after even 30 minutes or less it seems that the game is lost or won. But I have never never seen a day where one team just stops playing or walks off in a rage because they are losing at any point in the game. That is because we play for fun and always to the natural end of the game. Why cant we do this in NS2, win or lose? And yes, often the team miles behind start scoring goals and sometimes end up winning. That certainly would never happen if one team just gave up and left.
Solutions?
Personally I would take concede out and the option to f4 to make players play to the end as it should be. I would also programme the game so that important builds for the marines like IPs cannot be sold to stop comms dictating to me when I should stop playing. I have always said that if you are not having fun then don't play. Same goes with anything surely?
At least make the point at which the option to concede is longer. Say 20-30 minutes and stop the marine comm recycling important builds as not only is that not democratic but its also open to abuse.
Sal
It's not always fun fighting to the last minute. If your teams just getting stomped around the map but the other team won't finish it the concede makes a lot of sense. If your hold up in one room but the other team aren't good enough to deal the final blow, but you can't leave the room concede makes a lot of sense. Also even if your still having fun if you concede quickly once the game is pretty much lost you can start up a new game and possibly have more fun that you would of done in the losing game.
Football is a bad example to compare to. The chance of your team scoring a goal is pretty consistent through out the game. In NS2 your chance of doing anything useful starts to drop as your team loses. At the end of a football match the losers can still score, at the end of an NS2 match the losers are being cooped up into one room and being insta gibbed as they try to get out.
Well you simply cant win every game. If people only play to win then they are missing the point of games which is to have fun regardless.
My football example was simply just that....an example. If people gave up on everything so easily well nothing would be achieved in their lives. And I was talking about 5-a-side football where games teams dont finish like 3-2 in 11 a side. Its a high scoring smaller scale game where games often finish for eg: 36-29. I have played games where one team is being beaten by 20 or more goals but dont just walk off in a rage because they are losing.
Sal
We all accept you can't win every game. But losing isn't always fun!
An example, marines are up to 3 CCs and destroy aliens second hive you now have ~5 minutes of being insta gibbed as the marines head down to the last hive. There is nothing you can accomplish at that point, it's not fun anymore and it's abundantly clear who has won. Why wait 5 minutes for the game to finish "properly" when you can just call it over and start a new fresh game.
Likewise on the marine side, it's stupidly common for pub aliens to be good enough to push marines down to one CC but then not be coordinated enough to actually finish them off. Yeh a bit of target practice for a minute might be fun, but I'd much rather end the game and start a new one BECAUSE IT'S MORE FUN.
Also concede doesn't end your play time. The team concede, you start a new game. Maybe mix the teams up a bit, switch sides etc. Balanced teams are more fun to play than stacked teams. It doesn't end the game totally like your walking off the pitch example.
You said it yourself, the point of playing is to have fun. If your not having fun anymore or if a new game would be much more fun then concede.
What you are suggesting would only encourage turtling even more! Screw up earlygame then everyone concede and turtle in base. Great proposition!
I know, but at least, it has a time frame. As it is now, there is (when one team realizes that it is probably losing)
1) instant concede after XX mins (annoying for the winning team, maybe annoying for the minority on the conceding team)
2) com recycles and game ends after XX mins (annoying for winning team, annoying for some marines aswell)
3) no concede/recycle, game goes on
3.1) winning team can kill the weaker enemy quickly (rare, gg)
3.2) winning team can kill the weaker enemy after a XX min stretch out turtle game (annoying for experienced players who sometimes F4 which prolongs even more, annoying most of the times if aliens lose, gets kind of boring the longer it takes)
3.3.) weaker team can turn the tides and wins (very rare, best games!)
the "you have X time to win this game"-option only quickens 3.1 and 3.2 (so concede gets a better option), makes 3.3 impossible (but when players vote concede they probably doesn't want to come back) and takes the annoyance for the winning team ("now i have an exo/a fade when they conceded") a little bit.
I actually like Mestaritonttu's suggestion: concede doesn't end the game, but it ends respawns for the conceding team.
Lost games would end quickly rather than being pointlessly drawn out.
But it wouldn't end instantly.
Winning teams get the satisfaction of destroying the enemy.
Losing teams get a chance to go out in a blaze of glory.
But it wouldn't last very long, so you can get on to the next game.
In addition to ending respawns for the conceding team, perhaps there could be a time limit. Say, one minute. Maybe thirty seconds, maybe ninety seconds. But not long. That would give us the opportunity for a non-official not-really-a-game game of "can the winning team smash the last chair/hive before the game ends"? It wouldn't change the actual outcome of the game: if Marines concede, then after one minute the screen says "MARINES LOSE" / "ALIENS WIN" just like now, even if the aliens don't smash the chair quickly enough. But for the last minute, everyone on both teams will be on voice coms rallying as hard as they can to FINISH THEM!!! / HOLD OUT JUST A LITTLE BIT LONGER GUYS!!!! - and in the post-game ready room everyone will feel just a little bit more like it really was a Good Game thanks to the artificially-increased drama of the last minute.
I think this would also solve both of the opposing problems of conceding too early and not conceding early enough.
If a game is going badly but isn't actually lost yet, players will think twice before conceding, because even after conceding they'll still have to play out another minute of the game where they are being hunted down without respawns.
If a game is lost but some players are refusing to give up because they want to keep playing, they'll be more willing to concede knowing that they'll still get to play out another minute in a valiant effort at a last-stand (one which they might actually "win" even though they've lost the actual game).
Best of both worlds!
Edit: This could perhaps be a separate mechanism from concede. Have two options: "Concede" and "Last Stand". If a majority of a team votes Concede, then end the game immediately, just like now. Otherwise, if a majority of a team votes either Concede or Last Stand, then eliminate respawns for that team and end the game one minute later.
Not SureJoin Date: 2013-01-06Member: 177758Members
People don't concede because they play to win. They concede because they play to have fun, and 20 minutes of getting raped followed by a 2 minute fluke victory is really not that much fun. Also, the exhilaration of winning like that wears off after you've done it thirty times.
People don't concede because they play to win. They concede because they play to have fun, and 20 minutes of getting raped followed by a 2 minute fluke victory is really not that much fun. Also, the exhilaration of winning like that wears off after you've done it thirty times.
Yeah pretty much this, I'd rather get another round in. Unfortunately the game is usually decided in the first 2 minutes and then everything after is a slow drawn out death.
No one likes playing a game they know they are going to lose.[
This was not the mentality of NS1 players, we had FUN fighting to death, laughing to the end. Once again instead of a band aid fix, how about we fix the issue.
Sorry, wrong. In NS1 you didn't have the same thing happen. If you lost then you lost. I had some epic games in NS1 that I lost and enjoyed, but there was rarely a point where my team had no chance to win. Turtles were rare, and marines didn't have to play whack-a-mole at their extractors.
Unlike in NS2, in NS1 the battles were primarily player-versus-player, and not player versus structures like they are now. Honestly I find it just as tedious chomping on extractors as I do trying to protect them
I'm quite happy to use concede in games where I know the team is fighting for something they will never have. When you have an alien team with 4 Onos and you're down to your last tech point, what is the value in playing for another 15 minutes when you will still lose?
Once again, I'm quite happy to work towards fixing the issues, I guess you haven't played NS1 for long, back in the days?
LOL, wut? Put your mouse over the little skulk icon beside my avatar.
Frankly I don't know what you are debating me on this issue since I'm the one who has suggested that concede isn't the problem at all - and it's not.
I agree, Concede is horrid, it shouldn't have been added.... if people really wanted to quit, they could (and usually would) just F4....
F4 was worse than concede in every way.
A) It broadcast your intentions to the whole team, concede doesn't It hampered the winning team causing prolonging the game
C) You couldn't keep playing if the rest of the team didn't agree
Comments
This is typically out of the question for most RTS games, such as SC2, simply because of the vast number of buildings, upgrades, units, game states, it just wouldn't be feasible. I think that NS2 is streamlined enough that it might just be applicable though.
So what this would entail is assigning an overall score to a team based on what assets they have at their disposal.
For example:
Marines get level 1 guns: their score goes up by 10
Marines get level 2 guns: their score goes up by 20
Marines research shotguns: their score goes up by 15
Aliens research Crag hive, their score goes up by 5
Aliens research carapace, their score goes up by 15
Aliens drop a second hive, their score goes up by 25
More complex functionality could be added with certain tech or upgrades scaling in conjunction with others. For example, getting Exo tech would add 20 points, but Exo tech accompanied by level 3 armour would modify that to 30 points.
As I said, doing this for a dedicated RTS game wouldn't be feasible, as there would be far too many combinations that would need definitive point assignments. In NS2, however, I think that all necessary point assignments could be done quite quickly.
What this could then be used for is a prompt for forfeiting. Nothing forceful, nothing suggestive, merely a prompt. If one teams power score was to exceed the others by a certain threshold, all players in the game could be asked if they want the game to end.
the only people that would be truly mad at a feature like this are really bad players that actually enjoy fighting against insurmountable odds and/or don't know when the game is beyond winnable
I completely agree, I guess you could think of it as us becoming more like Black Ops Players, in an egotistical sense, like how they kill you, then shout at you "hahaha i killed you ner ner ner ner"
I agree and am glad more people have responded to the thread with the same mindset.
This is exactly right, you don't go start a game, only to end the game as soon as anyone on the team says "concede" into their mic. As I said before don't start something if you will not finish it. You might learn some new skills if you play it out
Agreed longer the better if it must stay in place.
That's not a fair comparison, in football the team doesn't get mechanically better than the other when they are winning, the team which shows better play wins.
NS2 is a snowbally game, it simply reaches a point where comebacks are impossible to happen without major mistakes.
The main issue though is just that games take too long to end after being decided. That's not a problem with concede - conceding is better than the alternative of being forced to play out hopeless games.
I can understand where your coming from, you don't like loosing, you play to win. I don't mean to sound rude but by playing the games out people get better at aiming and if you have a painful game then you're more likely to play better the next round and learn how to strategically win rather than have a repeat of that painful game time and time again.
I do see a problem in that I notice conceding happening earlier than F4 used to happen. I don't know if that's actually true, it's just my perception. I would need to see data to verify it.
Here's my idea. If a team concedes, and it should be at least 2/3 of the team, then the game ends, but doesn't end. What happens is all the marines put down their guns, or all the aliens put down their teeth. That team can no longer attack and do damage. The winning team gets to walk through the map and shoot everything that is defenseless. This prevents the conceding team from ruining your exo/onos fun since you still get to smash everything. It shouldn't take more than a minute, and will provide many hilarious moments that are true to the spirit of NS.
Concede is in the game since the game mechanics are broken to the extent that people can be stuck in a game they can't win. Fix that problem and you will never have any games where people concede.
And conceding only makes the problem worse IMO. Think about it, if your team keeps loosing, and you just start a new round they wont have that time to talk amongst each other about what they done wrong (while getting pwned, and possibly learning how to aim which is needed lol) , instead you get the same thing over and over.
Concede is a band-aid to fix symptoms of game play problems. What problems are those?
Or we think about changing the game so concede is not necessary, I will go into that later.
This was not the mentality of NS1 players, we had FUN fighting to death, laughing to the end. Once again instead of a band aid fix, how about we fix the issue.
We could try removing the need for power nodes, that would help significantly, I remember having nothing but one CC and one keen player left, killed all 4 skulks surrounding the CC, and built an IP. Ofcourse we should discuss other things if people want to fix the game rather than accept band aid solutions.
Once again, I'm quite happy to work towards fixing the issues, I'm guessing you haven't played much NS1 (at least a year) back in the days (before combat)?
All of those issues can be overcome we just need to have a different mindset, maybe I am too hung up on the past, I do however believe band-aid solutions are not the answer to anything in life and we need more in-depth discussion from seasoned players.
/endrant
Or, rather - When the team concedes you no longer spawn. Say marines concede -> Aliens get a screen note that says something like "Hunt down the remaining marines" -whatever, and marines get a note "it's hopeless, no more reinforcements, fall back" -or something, then marines get a chance to last-stand (maybe show the name of marines still alive on screen) or just hide, until they're all dead or cc's are dead. (No building anymore either, ofc)
Also Matsos idea in another thread was great, something about a retreat kinda function with a draw or something.
Sorry about all the vagueness, it's 6am. =_='
Just talked a group of marines out of conceding a game that was going very badly on Docking. They game was crazy back and forth, aliens had the early game by far. All we had was Pg in cafe and PG in departures. Comm tried building up cafe but they crushed it. They also took out departures PG. We almost conceded right there, one base, 2 RTs, 10 min or so in and only weapons 1. Caf was reclaimed for the RT and some guys got departures back under control. A PG in ballcourt let us push locker. That failed but we pushed Gen. While we took gen we lost ballcourt. They aliens raided terminal, killed power, CC proto and some other things we before we could respond. WE pushed em out and got it secured again. For a while it was some hardcore back and forth. We'd make a good push on cafe, they'd nearly knock out gen, ect. Termainal must have fallen at least twice more. We got ballcourt back up, and were jsut starting to make progress on locker and cafe at the same time. then the server died. had the sever not crashed I think we would have pulled it off since we had just taken out the last onos they had.
It was a great game.
A game that almost didn't happen because of concede.
I don't know who's idea it was or where it was posted on this forum, but I'd like to see a concede option for PUBS, which says "Ok, we see that we are losing, so now finish it, enemy!".
In other words: aliens vote concede -> timer starts in which marines have 10/XX minutes to win the game (with some buff for marines or nerf for aliens, but that should be decided by the devs or the balance playtesters) and aliens must defend their hives (turtle game with a time frame) -> when the marines are sucessfull, they win, when they are not, it's a draw.
timer alerts could say something like: "escape shuttle coming!" (marines) or "alien hive evolving some legs!" or "gorge tunnel to kharaa homeworld in the build!" (aliens).
(that's not my idea, someone posted this somewhere in the forum, all the credits to her/him)
I agree that the rounds end too quickly with concede. One of the funny things in NS1 was playing hide and seek after the last hive/cc was killed. Since each side had a wallhack this hardly ever took a lot of time but there were some epic moments of aliens hiding in vents with dcs, playing "Stayin alive" over the voicecomm :P
We all accept you can't win every game. But losing isn't always fun!
An example, marines are up to 3 CCs and destroy aliens second hive you now have ~5 minutes of being insta gibbed as the marines head down to the last hive. There is nothing you can accomplish at that point, it's not fun anymore and it's abundantly clear who has won. Why wait 5 minutes for the game to finish "properly" when you can just call it over and start a new fresh game.
Likewise on the marine side, it's stupidly common for pub aliens to be good enough to push marines down to one CC but then not be coordinated enough to actually finish them off. Yeh a bit of target practice for a minute might be fun, but I'd much rather end the game and start a new one BECAUSE IT'S MORE FUN.
Also concede doesn't end your play time. The team concede, you start a new game. Maybe mix the teams up a bit, switch sides etc. Balanced teams are more fun to play than stacked teams. It doesn't end the game totally like your walking off the pitch example.
You said it yourself, the point of playing is to have fun. If your not having fun anymore or if a new game would be much more fun then concede.
I know, but at least, it has a time frame. As it is now, there is (when one team realizes that it is probably losing)
1) instant concede after XX mins (annoying for the winning team, maybe annoying for the minority on the conceding team)
2) com recycles and game ends after XX mins (annoying for winning team, annoying for some marines aswell)
3) no concede/recycle, game goes on
3.1) winning team can kill the weaker enemy quickly (rare, gg)
3.2) winning team can kill the weaker enemy after a XX min stretch out turtle game (annoying for experienced players who sometimes F4 which prolongs even more, annoying most of the times if aliens lose, gets kind of boring the longer it takes)
3.3.) weaker team can turn the tides and wins (very rare, best games!)
the "you have X time to win this game"-option only quickens 3.1 and 3.2 (so concede gets a better option), makes 3.3 impossible (but when players vote concede they probably doesn't want to come back) and takes the annoyance for the winning team ("now i have an exo/a fade when they conceded") a little bit.
- Lost games would end quickly rather than being pointlessly drawn out.
- But it wouldn't end instantly.
- Winning teams get the satisfaction of destroying the enemy.
- Losing teams get a chance to go out in a blaze of glory.
- But it wouldn't last very long, so you can get on to the next game.
In addition to ending respawns for the conceding team, perhaps there could be a time limit. Say, one minute. Maybe thirty seconds, maybe ninety seconds. But not long. That would give us the opportunity for a non-official not-really-a-game game of "can the winning team smash the last chair/hive before the game ends"? It wouldn't change the actual outcome of the game: if Marines concede, then after one minute the screen says "MARINES LOSE" / "ALIENS WIN" just like now, even if the aliens don't smash the chair quickly enough. But for the last minute, everyone on both teams will be on voice coms rallying as hard as they can to FINISH THEM!!! / HOLD OUT JUST A LITTLE BIT LONGER GUYS!!!! - and in the post-game ready room everyone will feel just a little bit more like it really was a Good Game thanks to the artificially-increased drama of the last minute.I think this would also solve both of the opposing problems of conceding too early and not conceding early enough.
- If a game is going badly but isn't actually lost yet, players will think twice before conceding, because even after conceding they'll still have to play out another minute of the game where they are being hunted down without respawns.
- If a game is lost but some players are refusing to give up because they want to keep playing, they'll be more willing to concede knowing that they'll still get to play out another minute in a valiant effort at a last-stand (one which they might actually "win" even though they've lost the actual game).
Best of both worlds!Edit: This could perhaps be a separate mechanism from concede. Have two options: "Concede" and "Last Stand". If a majority of a team votes Concede, then end the game immediately, just like now. Otherwise, if a majority of a team votes either Concede or Last Stand, then eliminate respawns for that team and end the game one minute later.
Yeah pretty much this, I'd rather get another round in. Unfortunately the game is usually decided in the first 2 minutes and then everything after is a slow drawn out death.
Unlike in NS2, in NS1 the battles were primarily player-versus-player, and not player versus structures like they are now. Honestly I find it just as tedious chomping on extractors as I do trying to protect them
LOL, wut? Put your mouse over the little skulk icon beside my avatar.
Frankly I don't know what you are debating me on this issue since I'm the one who has suggested that concede isn't the problem at all - and it's not.
which hitreg???
and yes, like the first post, I remember the epic 2+ hour games due to epic come backs in NS1...
Perhaps add some server config options for concede....
have an "enabled / disabled" option?
have a "minimum wait time to concede" (so you can change from 5 mins, to whatever)
have a "minimum number of votes (% of team maybe?) required"
also have something like, "number of tech points required to concede" - to stop them conceding with 2 tech locations, like I see soooo much!
F4 was worse than concede in every way.
A) It broadcast your intentions to the whole team, concede doesn't
C) You couldn't keep playing if the rest of the team didn't agree
How many 2+ hour epic games did you see in NS2 before concede? Adding concede didn't change this, 2+ games were already very unlikely in NS2.
actually, about 1 in every 6 or so that I played, lasted around 2 hours....
the average was around 45-50 minutes, with some hitting 2 and 1/2 hours...