Aliens should have to build things too... infestation should be one of them.
I can see that being an enjoyable way to spend the game.
I'm sure it would be just as enjoyable as a marine standing around pressing his use key for 15 seconds to build a structure. Spread the fun around, that's what I say...
Exactly, I think a big portion of the imbalance on aliens comes first from the economic issue, but second from the fact that aliens can expand all over the map while the both teams focus on taking one area. Many pub games end up with a marine loss because the marines go attack the hive, or fortify an expansion, while the alien khamm has free reign of the rest of the map.
good example on summit: marines in sub access, aliens in atrium. marines go for flight control, aliens battle them there. marine comm provides support and handles upgrades, alien khamm expands all over the rest of the map, RTs in reactor, data core, crossroads, crevice and possibly even ventilation, while marines battle to maintain their 3rd RT.
once marines either give up or secure flight, they can go and take out the alien other side of the map, but by that point aliens have had several minutes of extreme income which puts marines at a disadvantage the rest of the game. Aliens can survive on 3 RTs, but can get a huge benefit from lots of temporary RTs at the beginning of the game, and need no real effort to get them up.
Aliens should have to build things too... infestation should be one of them.
I can see that being an enjoyable way to spend the game.
I'm sure it would be just as enjoyable as a marine standing around pressing his use key for 15 seconds to build a structure. Spread the fun around, that's what I say...
Exactly, I think a big portion of the imbalance on aliens comes first from the economic issue, but second from the fact that aliens can expand all over the map while the both teams focus on taking one area. Many pub games end up with a marine loss because the marines go attack the hive, or fortify an expansion, while the alien khamm has free reign of the rest of the map.
good example on summit: marines in sub access, aliens in atrium. marines go for flight control, aliens battle them there. marine comm provides support and handles upgrades, alien khamm expands all over the rest of the map, RTs in reactor, data core, crossroads, crevice and possibly even ventilation, while marines battle to maintain their 3rd RT.
once marines either give up or secure flight, they can go and take out the alien other side of the map, but by that point aliens have had several minutes of extreme income which puts marines at a disadvantage the rest of the game. Aliens can survive on 3 RTs, but can get a huge benefit from lots of temporary RTs at the beginning of the game, and need no real effort to get them up.
In this scenario the marines are doing quite badly in the FPS game. It shouldn't require the full attention of the entire team to secure one room, especially in a defensive position. Even if the entire alien team is converging on them there, that just means it would be very easy for one or two other marines to shut down the khamm's expansion on the other half of the map.
Exactly, I think a big portion of the imbalance on aliens comes first from the economic issue, but second from the fact that aliens can expand all over the map while the both teams focus on taking one area. Many pub games end up with a marine loss because the marines go attack the hive, or fortify an expansion, while the alien khamm has free reign of the rest of the map.
While this has always sounded reasonable to me in the past, I'm starting to think that it may just not be true.
Its easy to see that an alien commander can continue to spread infestation and expand his territory even while the aliens continuously attack the marines, but we often forget about the huge advantages the marine commander has in this field. As we know, for the small cost of building a power node, the marine team can build anywhere on the entire map, essentially instantaneously. They can also build several times faster than the alien team could ever feasibly hope to.
That isn't to say that no imbalance exists in this area, but its easy to feel like the alien team has all the advantages when it comes to expanding. All that is required is a few tweaks here and there, and this dynamic can be made much more fair.
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The "essentially instantaneously" part I do not agree with.
An alien kham can cyst, drop 2 harvesters, and place two whips that will be grown by the time a marine squad gets to nano, typically. This is because they are engaging an entire team with nothing better to do than put pressure on you.
Aliens are the fast team on the ground, and without the strict requirement of player presence for expansion this can make up for slightly slower "build times" , creating an all around faster team when it comes to obtaining territory sometimes. This doesn't always bode well for a game that's founded on map control.
The "essentially instantaneously" part I do not agree with.
An alien kham can cyst, drop 2 harvesters, and place two whips that will be grown by the time a marine squad gets to nano, typically. This is because they are engaging an entire team with nothing better to do than put pressure on you.
Aliens are the fast team on the ground, and without the strict requirement of player presence for expansion this can make up for slightly slower "build times" , creating an all around faster team when it comes to obtaining territory sometimes. This doesn't always bode well for a game that's founded on map control.
But no one intelligent would ever spend 30 Tres on Whips at the start of a game. There's simply no benefit to it.
I think it is a true point that the Kahmm normally does not have to "participate" in the fights meaning as Khamm at least I don't really care what my skulks are doing. I know where marines started, so I just cyst into all other directions and take rts. Also, once you got your upgrade and placed down a hive your are basically 100% free to try to help your team by pointing out where marines are, place drifters and so on. And if your team is good and you got 4 rts secured, u get loads of res once hive #2 finishes so you can instantly start crag+leap upgrade. so a couple of minutes after second hive finished you are again free to try coordinate your team.
Marine comms on the other hand have all hands full with trying to coordinate marines, need to watch where they are to drop stuff, build the base at the same time and so on. There imho is no point in early/midgame where you got only half as much time to coordinate your marines like the Khamm has. So from the start, marines do have a disadvantage from the economical and teamplay point of view.
I think this is also a thing indirectly caused by the change in alien ressource model.
I mean, both teams got ported nearly 1:1 from NS1. Only thing that really changed on Aliens is the new res/khamm thing. Problem is, NS1 was not made for an alien commander and tres model. So it is only logical that this whole thing does not work too well in NS2.
Basically Aliens got one bird's-eyed player who can see/hear marines running around and building. He might have to build some stuff from time to time but this only takes a few seconds every now and then and basically he can not screw it up, so even the worst khamm will only not really help his team. A good khamm on the other hand can keep his team informed about EVERYTHING going on around the map making him far more valueable than just another skulk.
And there lies a big part of the current imbalance which is so hard to pinpoint. Because the khamm feature does not fit the unterlying alien economical model and tech tree, it enables the khamm to be anything between no burden and an intelligent wallhack.
Also this makes clear why imbalance is so hard to pin to certain aspects of the game:
Generally the influence of the alien khamm is regarded as fairly small because of his non-existant screw-up potential. However I think his potential to really help his team by telling where marines are building/heading is really disregarded by the community this far.
I don't have to tell you this is a whole different world concerning the marine comm.
I know it's a common place that marine comm is harder than alien khamm but I think it's interesting that the reason at least in my opinion goes back to the underlying eco/techtree. It also reinforces OP's point that Aliens got forced into a economical/gameplay model that does not really fit them.
The issues raised in this post are elegant and thoughtful, but don't have any satsifactory answers that are readily available IMHO.
In NS1, you were familiar enough with the playerbase that you knew precisely how good you were, that is if someone were better, than you would let them go fade first
and instead choose to build a harvester with your res. But if you were relatively, the best player on your team, then you would tell your team that you would go fade first.
In NS2, since the playerbase is large, this type of intimate "knowing" is not possible, and asking for sacrifices makes little sense because the Call of Duty players won't know that they aren't worth anything.
Hugh confirmed official stats have aliens at a 60% win rate. I hope we can stop the ridiculous discussion on whether or not this game is unbalanced now and focus on actually addressing the systemic issues rather than its symptoms.
I really like this post. The more i hear of NS1 and how aliens played back then, i wish it were the same for NS2
There's a NS 1 mod for NS 2, you should definitely check it out. Unfortunately it doesn't get nearly the amount of players it deserves though. I suppose it's a big step for most players as it does feel completely different since they've done more than just changed the economy (i.e got rid of the alien commander) For me personally that's the most important part, if there was a mod that did just that I would LOVE it.
Hugh confirmed official stats have aliens at a 60% win rate. I hope we can stop the ridiculous discussion on whether or not this game is unbalanced now and focus on actually addressing the systemic issues rather than its symptoms.
Was anyone really questioning that? I think people are questioning whether your "real culprit" is the actual root cause of the balance issue or not.
The issues raised in this post are elegant and thoughtful, but don't have any satsifactory answers that are readily available IMHO.
In NS1, you were familiar enough with the playerbase that you knew precisely how good you were, that is if someone were better, than you would let them go fade first
and instead choose to build a harvester with your res. But if you were relatively, the best player on your team, then you would tell your team that you would go fade first.
In NS2, since the playerbase is large, this type of intimate "knowing" is not possible, and asking for sacrifices makes little sense because the Call of Duty players won't know that they aren't worth anything.
This isn't how the game should be. Yes, it was nice to have such a strong sense of teamwork, and to make sacrifices for the greater good, but that isn't how mainstream games work. If I want to go fade, I should be able to go fade. It doesn't matter if its my first day, or if I'm blind with no arms. Its my res, and I should be able to spend it as I see fit. Its the commanders job to take care of the strategy part, and its my job to run around and try to kill people. Sure, if you want to take it to the next level of play, you are going to need a higher level of teamwork, but that shouldn't be required at the most basic level of play.
I have a different core issue that I think is wrong with ns2, but at the same time the economical model is also a huge part of it. So I'll make a new thread for that. So aliens have an easy time getting resources... an obvious solution is to make it more difficult for aliens to get resources... i.e. reduce the amount they get per second compared to marines. this is absolutely NOT WHAT I WANT TO HAPPEN, it's an arbitrary bandaid fix and won't help. I'm getting frustrated trying to think up a suggestion so I'll just leave it there.
Was anyone really questioning that? I think people are questioning whether your "real culprit" is the actual root cause of the balance issue or not.
Several people in this thread and elsewhere have, I just wanted it to be brought on the record so we could stop having those kind of responses.
this is absolutely NOT WHAT I WANT TO HAPPEN, it's an arbitrary bandaid fix and won't help. I'm getting frustrated trying to think up a suggestion so I'll just leave it there.
It's vital for the RTS component to work that both sides are subject to the same economic ruleset. Though one could argue that this is only partially the case anyway since alien p.res works differently from marine one and t.res is worth less on top of that because it needs to be spent on less. Messing with income rates just wouldn't be a good idea. They COULD consider messing with some of the lifeform costs, though that would also affect the timing of higher lifeforms which is not necessarily something they want.
That's the heart of the balance issue.
There, I said it.
Well obviously. If one team wins more often than the other then that is pretty much the definition of "being easier to play". But why are they easier to play? Is the skulk easier to use than the marine? Is the Onos easier than an Exo? Is Lerk easier than a jetpack? Is alien commander easier than marine commander? If so, does alien commander have as big an impact as the marine commander? Does that even it out? If not, why not?
Hugh confirmed official stats have aliens at a 60% win rate. I hope we can stop the ridiculous discussion on whether or not this game is unbalanced now and focus on actually addressing the systemic issues rather than its symptoms.
Was anyone really questioning that? I think people are questioning whether your "real culprit" is the actual root cause of the balance issue or not.
The issues raised in this post are elegant and thoughtful, but don't have any satsifactory answers that are readily available IMHO.
In NS1, you were familiar enough with the playerbase that you knew precisely how good you were, that is if someone were better, than you would let them go fade first
and instead choose to build a harvester with your res. But if you were relatively, the best player on your team, then you would tell your team that you would go fade first.
In NS2, since the playerbase is large, this type of intimate "knowing" is not possible, and asking for sacrifices makes little sense because the Call of Duty players won't know that they aren't worth anything.
This isn't how the game should be. Yes, it was nice to have such a strong sense of teamwork, and to make sacrifices for the greater good, but that isn't how mainstream games work. If I want to go fade, I should be able to go fade. It doesn't matter if its my first day, or if I'm blind with no arms. Its my res, and I should be able to spend it as I see fit. Its the commanders job to take care of the strategy part, and its my job to run around and try to kill people. Sure, if you want to take it to the next level of play, you are going to need a higher level of teamwork, but that shouldn't be required at the most basic level of play.
NS2 is not going to get CoD players to come over by being just another shooter like CoD. Most people bought the game because it is different, not Call of Duty green ops 5000.
That's the heart of the balance issue.
There, I said it.
Well obviously. If one team wins more often than the other then that is pretty much the definition of "being easier to play". But why are they easier to play? Is the skulk easier to use than the marine? Is the Onos easier than an Exo? Is Lerk easier than a jetpack? Is alien commander easier than marine commander? If so, does alien commander have as big an impact as the marine commander? Does that even it out? If not, why not?
Skulk is easier than marine, unless you rush a bunch of marines by yourself constantly.
Lerk, and Fade take skill to play well.
Most people are terrible though.
ie: Spiking floor lerks.
Onos takes no skill at all, besides "Oh, I'm half dead, I better run."
Alien commander is easier than marine commander, and can have a huge impact on the game.
The alien comm's involvement in what's going on isn't as direct as the marine comm's is.
That is:
The marine com can have a direct influence on combat at any time.
The alien com has to have a drifter in the area to use enzyme.
The alien commander doesn't need babysitters to build his/her structures, and can expand faster than the marines can, in multiple directions at once(I routinely cyst two-three directions at once).
The thing is, towards the end game, the alien com has less, and less to do once all the upgrades have been dropped.
Where as the marine comm is frantically scanning, medding, dropping ammo, and trying to herd a bunch of wet cats to Repair to get that last hive down, no you don't need an exo, just weld the arcs goddamnit!
Technically lifeform and weapon choices too are part of the strategic gameplay and thus something the commander should very well have a say in. The marine commander does, to some extent, though not like in NS 1 where he would drop the actual weapons, jps and HAs. Sure, the consequence of this would be that players have less control over what they get to play with, but then you'd actually have marnines and aliens executing a strategy (i.e all shotguns with JPs, or all HAs with hmgs) rather than just 'doing whatever with the tools at hand'.
IMO NS2 tries to cater too much to the mainstream gamer by trying to offer something (i.e personal weapon and lifeform choice) this game truly doesn't need to be succesful. NS 2 pretty much sold its soul when it started catering to individual player preferences rather than the overarching strategy necessity when it comes to upgrades and lifeforms. There's already enough mainstream FPS games out there that do just that and games like DOTA have shown that even more complex and seemingly 'less mainstream' can very well appeal to a large audience.
/ns1nostalgia
If we'd get rid of p.res, not only would the whole economic imbalance be solved in an instance (no tech explosions, etc), you'd also enable a much larger degree of strategic depth and dynamic gameplay as a result, with an even greater focus on teamwork.
Is the price of individual 'freedom' truly too great if it allows us to acquire better balance, teamwork and strategic depth?
I'm inclined to say it isn't. Are you really going to tell me that those 2 - 3 times you get to pick a lifeform or weapon in your average game are that important?
I think the game would play out much better if the commanders controlled what forms/weapons you got.
One major thing it'd solve:
People saving for Onos/Exosuits, even if their team is losing.
This is my biggest pet peeve.
It'd also give the marine commander A LOT more control over pushes.
If marines couldn't spend all their res on JP+<Insert Weapon Here>, they'd probably be more inclined to stay with the group.
The only downside I could see would be commanders that refuse to drop weapons for people.
I know a lot of new and/or immature players would get really mad about that, especially if the commander told them "No, you're bad, you're not getting anything."
The issues raised in this post are elegant and thoughtful, but don't have any satsifactory answers that are readily available IMHO.
In NS1, you were familiar enough with the playerbase that you knew precisely how good you were, that is if someone were better, than you would let them go fade first
and instead choose to build a harvester with your res. But if you were relatively, the best player on your team, then you would tell your team that you would go fade first.
In NS2, since the playerbase is large, this type of intimate "knowing" is not possible, and asking for sacrifices makes little sense because the Call of Duty players won't know that they aren't worth anything.
It didnt really have anything to do with knowing who was better. People who were bad could fade or lerk or do whatever they wanted, and frequently did (you've heard of the wall of lame right?).
'Good Player' in NS1 had a variety of meanings. A good fade was not necessarily a good skulk or a good gorge or a good lerk. People chose the role they enjoyed the most (and usually that is the role that they are best at). NS1 catered to more gameplay styles than NS2 does. Allowing for people to build/support as gorge, scout/support as lerk, hit&run as fade or be cannonfodder/chew RTs as skulk. As a result sacrifices are rarely made (except in somewhat extreme situations) as players enjoy filling those roles. In an mmo it isnt a sacrifice to play a healing class that a dps class must make, it is the same situation here.
There was a post by IronHorse I think which said about TF2 classes benefitting each other without a concrete dependency on another class for survival. I would argue that NS1 provided this.
As to being mainstream, NS1 did well enough to warrant a paid-for sequel despite being a very niche game. Supposedly "too complex for new players to get into" yet the success of that niche has provided us with NS2, which has somewhat alienated those of us who played and enjoyed NS1
'Good Player' in NS1 had a variety of meanings. A good fade was not necessarily a good skulk or a good gorge or a good lerk. People chose the role they enjoyed the most (and usually that is the role that they are best at). NS1 catered to more gameplay styles than NS2 does. Allowing for people to build/support as gorge, scout/support as lerk, hit&run as fade or be cannonfodder/chew RTs as skulk. As a result sacrifices are rarely made (except in somewhat extreme situations) as players enjoy filling those roles. In an mmo it isnt a sacrifice to play a healing class that a dps class must make, it is the same situation here.
As to being mainstream, NS1 did well enough to warrant a paid-for sequel despite being a very niche and complex game. Supposedly "too complex for new players to get into" yet the success of that niche has provided us with NS2, which has somewhat alienated those of us who played and enjoyed NS1
I agree on the non-sacrifice part. I always loved to be a gorge and happily would put all my res into rts/chambers/Hives. I really liked the very strong teamplay aspect of this class. The team was dependend on the gorge and therefor protected them.
In NS2 I miss the "gorge feeling" of NS1. While the gorge got stronger in terms of pure combat ability, I think he's considerably less fun to play.
I don't think the main reason for NS1 being such a niche game was the complexity. I think one major problem was that at the time there basically were 1000 good and interesting HL1 mods to play. In fact looking back it seems unreal from a today's perspective how many very good mods were out there. Of course there were the heavy hitters like CS and DoD but also many more.
So all these mods had to share the same playerbase and for a mod that was released later than said CA and CoD it was just hard to get the attention, especially as there was no steam around then to spread the word. I myself learnt of NS1 more by accident than anything.
I think another major issue with balance is UWE's initial goal of a 20-minute game length.
It's too short for this kind of a game, honestly. 30 minutes at the least. With such short times, the slightest mistake can make the game end.
On the topic of balance, I was watching a recent competitive game of NS2 that WasabiOne casted. The marines had locked the aliens down into a single hive, with an easy 600 res lead, and were sieging the alien's hive. A few crags, and two gorges, were able to outheal THREE ARC cannons. With a single whip in between the marines and the hive, using GLs was ineffective because of the whip's knockback.
There are balance issues deeply rooted in this game, as you stated with the economy. But there are also fundamental problems with how each team deals with certain roles. The aliens' defense is mostly based in offense: making the marines constantly fall back and defend points is a good enough defense while the Khammander just builds things up and advances tech unhindered. In the competitive game I mentioned earlier, a single gorge kept running back into the marine base and throwing bile bombs, until eventually his team joined him, and they took out the marines in a matter of seconds. The marines SHOULD have won that game, they had an obvious lead, and had the aliens cornered, but had such difficulty just entering the aliens' base and ending it, that the game dragged on and they lost.
I think a root of the problem lies with how UWE favors the aliens so much. People complain about marine sentries, but they have a limited arc of fire, are fragile, and cost a lot of res to place down. Hydras are only 19 res (10 gorge + 3 res each * 3) and do about 15 damage per shot, have a decently long range, and aren't exactly fragile. A SINGLE whip put down in the right spot renders a GL utterly pointless, unless set on fire (oh boy, I get to spend 50 PRes on weapons, and have to suicide to temporarily disable the whip so I can grenade it. Oh no, a gorge healed it and it's no longer on fire, also my face is being eaten). There are just so many balance issues related to NS2 that It's caused me to not want to play any more, and I'm a PRE-ALPHA customer.
Ok, I just read the whole thread. And now I will try to come up with a solution.
I agree, that the economy of the aliens is part of the problem. Also many others have made good points.
I don't agree with "Skulks should be weaker than marines in 1vs1 or 2vs2 because aliens tech faster". It would be a strong cut into the fun, when the early game balance between skulks and marines wouldn't be balanced. Changing it the way, that more aliens are bound to economy-tasks (gorges need to build up things) is also a big cut into the fun. It is already boring to build up a hive. So instead of changing this, we should just introduce more tech for the aliens. So they need as long as marines to tech up to the same level. They can keep their player-independent economy, but their economy is tweaked to compensate for this fact. This tech needs to be simple to implement and shouldn't overpower the aliens further. We should also keep in mind, that the appearance of higher lifeforms isn't really coupled to the t-res spent in tech. In regards to that, what could we do?
Preface: I wanted to come up with something, that doesn't "nerf" the aliens. Something that most of all should not decrease the fun it is to play aliens. It should be something that adds to the game instead. But at the same time is useful to take some pressure from the marines and increase the "difficulty" to play aliens to the point it is similar to the marines. I think both ideas were already mentioned in this thread. Lets start:
Some had the idea to get rid of pres at aliens and let the com buy the lifeforms. How about coupling this with:
- The player needs pres to buy a lifeform from the available pool. But the com needs to fill this pool by buying units with t-res. (The player can only buy a fade, when the com has bought at least one in the pool.)
* The cost of this don't need to be this high like they are right now for buying t-res eggs, because they are now also p-res bound.
* It is asymmetrical to the marine team.
* It gives the alien com more to do and also more influence on the tactics and lifeform mix at the battlefield.
* It doesn't take away to much freedom from the alien players.
Sure, it takes away a little bit of fun from the alien player, because he can't spend his p-res like he wants to. If no lifeforms are in the pool, (that he wants to play) he can't spend his p-res at all. Thats what leads us to the second tweak:
- Gorges are now responsible for placing cysts from p-res instead of the com.
* This slows the alien economy. Gorges won't place cysts as fast as coms can.
* It takes alien players from the front lines with a more interesting task than holding Mouse2 while looking at a building.
* It introduces a new meta game: "Hide the cyst!" because you can place them now an walls and ceilings again. It is a p-res dump.
* Cutting cyst-chains now is a real deal.
* Expanding the cyst-chain is now dangerous, Gorges can get killed while expanding without cover.
* It increases the team-play-demand on the alien side and introduces more ways for mistakes, like marines already have.
I think at least one of this points could already be enough to bring the balance back.
There are balance issues deeply rooted in this game, as you stated with the economy. But there are also fundamental problems with how each team deals with certain roles. The aliens' defense is mostly based in offense: making the marines constantly fall back and defend points is a good enough defense while the Khammander just builds things up and advances tech unhindered. In the competitive game I mentioned earlier, a single gorge kept running back into the marine base and throwing bile bombs, until eventually his team joined him, and they took out the marines in a matter of seconds. The marines SHOULD have won that game, they had an obvious lead, and had the aliens cornered, but had such difficulty just entering the aliens' base and ending it, that the game dragged on and they lost.
While you are certainly correct that there significant imbalances aside of the economy, I would like to argue that even these are ultimately largely a byproduct of the broken economy. Aside from the fact that a few gorges and crags can outheal ARCs, why is it that marines with a 600 t.res advantage don't have a significant lead on aliens? First and foremost that is because aside from harvesters, the second hive and 2 upgrades as well as 3 relatively 'vital' upgrades (leap, bilebomb, blink), the alien t.res economy simply doesn't have to invest in anything else for aliens to be competitive. All t.res gained from that point is then spent on spamming whips, crags and shifts, as well as on even more higher lifeforms.
If we look at the basic cost estimate of what a 'competitive' alien side needs it is:
40 for hive
30 for first upgrade (cara or cele)
30 for second upgrade (cara or cele)
30 for crag and shift upgrade on hive
25 for leap
20 for bilebomb
30 for blink
205 t.res. With just this and p.res lifeforms who require no prior t.res research, aliens are going to be competitive even against lategame marines.
Now for the marine side it looks like this:
15 extra IP
10 armory
15 obs
15 PG tech
30 2 PGs (minimum, but let's be honest, they'll need more.
5 Welders
20 Shotguns
20 Arms Lab
150 Armour and Weapons 3
20 Adv Armory
15 Second CC
40 Proto Lab
25 JPs
380! That's almost double what alien need in t.res. And mind you I am omitting 'optional' things like EXOs, flamethrowers, gls, arcs, sentries and mines. (not to mention scans, ammo and med drops) This is the VERY basics of what marines need to invest in order to be competitive with the 205 t.res alien investment. Even if you calculate in the fact that aliens spend 1 t.res per cyst and need on average another 5 per harvesters, will want some shifts (10) or crags (10), they don't even come close to what marines have to spend.
So do tell me, oh wise people who claim the economy isn't broken. How exactly isn't it? How is it even remotely balanced that aliens are competitive at just 2 hives and are competitive for late game at almost half the cost as marines? Aliens get to the late-game faster if they are not crippled heavily from the get-go (less than half of the marine amount of extractors), which means marines have a very narrow timeframe in which they stand a chance of winning. It also means that it's much harder for marines to properly delay the alien teching than it is for aliens to do so with marines (as there's less overall costs involved)
The more I think about it the more outrageous it is that UWE still hasn't made this analysis themselves. I'd say given these numbers, it's quite frankly remarkable that the winrates aren't worse than 60/40. Yes, this is an assymetric game, but no that can be no justification for the economic reality of each side being assymetric too.
If it was really a design goal to make the rounds last 20 minutes max, that was an epic design fail. I think 20 minutes is a too short to really engage in a strategy game like this and too long to just forget a round and move on to the next.
Since someone mentioned Dota 2, I like the game concept of Dota:
In early game, try to get some money (and xp), you dont aim for getting kills.
In mid game, you try to kill (gank) the enemy and kill their structures to get an advantage.
In end game, you assault their base.
Kills give gold for the killer as well as any assists and dead players dont recieve gold while they are dead.
Exchange gold for res and this would work for NS too.
Some had the idea to get rid of pres at aliens and let the com buy the lifeforms. How about coupling this with:
- The player needs pres to buy a lifeform from the available pool. But the com needs to fill this pool by buying units with t-res. (The player can only buy a fade, when the com has bought at least one in the pool.)
* The cost of this don't need to be this high like they are right now for buying t-res eggs, because they are now also p-res bound.
* It is asymmetrical to the marine team.
* It gives the alien com more to do and also more influence on the tactics and lifeform mix at the battlefield.
* It doesn't take away to much freedom from the alien players.
I think this is an interesting idea, but I think it would require some adjustment to how T- and P-res are divided for the aliens. Otherwise, the khamm would get a new Tres sink, while the FPS players would be forced to hold onto their Pres until the khamm is able to put some new eggs into the pool.
On a related note, I think the Pres cost for gorges should be increased somehow. Right now, it is way too easy for a player to suicide bilebomb a marine base 4 or 5 times in mid-game, cause a good bit of trouble for the marines and still come out with enough res to evolve back into gorge to support an onos.
Perhaps a gorge could cost 20 Pres, but that gives him 3 free hydras (any hydras after the third would cost the usual 3 Pres, until the player respawns and goes gorge again). That way, we're still able to insta-drop hydras at the beginning of the game, but a player with 50 pres would only be able to suicide bilebomb a base 2 or 3 times!
Sure, it takes away a little bit of fun from the alien player, because he can't spend his p-res like he wants to. If no lifeforms are in the pool, (that he wants to play) he can't spend his p-res at all. Thats what leads us to the second tweak:
- Gorges are now responsible for placing cysts from p-res instead of the com.
* This slows the alien economy. Gorges won't place cysts as fast as coms can.
* It takes alien players from the front lines with a more interesting task than holding Mouse2 while looking at a building.
* It introduces a new meta game: "Hide the cyst!" because you can place them now an walls and ceilings again. It is a p-res dump.
* Cutting cyst-chains now is a real deal.
* Expanding the cyst-chain is now dangerous, Gorges can get killed while expanding without cover.
* It increases the team-play-demand on the alien side and introduces more ways for mistakes, like marines already have.
I remember reading somewhere that this was actually the case during some builds in the Beta. It sounds fun, especially since it creates some more interaction between the khamm and the gorge on the field. It would also be another Pres sink to prevent suicide bilebomb gorges. This would encourage teams to have one player as perma-gorge in each match.
1) How about the cyst placement get changed so that you can't drop a new cyst until it is on existing infestation? Current cyst mechanics allow you to put a cyst on empty ground ahead of the previous cyst. By limiting where cysts can be placed, you slow down the alien super expansion you often see at the start of a game where the alien comm grabs as many as 4 RTs within a minute. Then also change it so that the infestation from an existing newly-dropped cyst expands faster.
2) When a cyst chain is cut, the affected harvester(s) are temporarily disabled and do not give res (if this isn't already the case).
3) Dropping a new hive requires a cyst chain extending from any existing hive, and only if the tech point (the square on the floor) is completely covered with infestation. If the cyst chain is cut, the hive slows to 50% growth rate until the cyst chain is reconnected.
4) Marines are no longer heard or detected on infestation unless they basically step on a cyst.
5) Gorges are required to drop cysts (which will no longer cost any res...just energy). Select the cyst ability, aim ahead like aiming a clog, and drop it. The cyst pops out at 80% hp/armor, and 50% maturity. This would be the biggest nerf of all the suggestions, but it WILL require more teamwork on the part of the aliens...and it will also screw over aliens on the competitive side of things. I honestly don't see this one being considered seriously.
6) Leave all the current game mechanics alone, gorges are now required to drop harvesters...which cost 5 Tres. If this is done, then the gorges will need to be protected by skulks and will probably need their base movement bumped up a bit. Also a big nerf and not likely to be considered as it would basically diminish the role of the alien com.
all of these nerf suggestions were made off the top of my head
Comments
Exactly, I think a big portion of the imbalance on aliens comes first from the economic issue, but second from the fact that aliens can expand all over the map while the both teams focus on taking one area. Many pub games end up with a marine loss because the marines go attack the hive, or fortify an expansion, while the alien khamm has free reign of the rest of the map.
good example on summit: marines in sub access, aliens in atrium. marines go for flight control, aliens battle them there. marine comm provides support and handles upgrades, alien khamm expands all over the rest of the map, RTs in reactor, data core, crossroads, crevice and possibly even ventilation, while marines battle to maintain their 3rd RT.
once marines either give up or secure flight, they can go and take out the alien other side of the map, but by that point aliens have had several minutes of extreme income which puts marines at a disadvantage the rest of the game. Aliens can survive on 3 RTs, but can get a huge benefit from lots of temporary RTs at the beginning of the game, and need no real effort to get them up.
In this scenario the marines are doing quite badly in the FPS game. It shouldn't require the full attention of the entire team to secure one room, especially in a defensive position. Even if the entire alien team is converging on them there, that just means it would be very easy for one or two other marines to shut down the khamm's expansion on the other half of the map.
While this has always sounded reasonable to me in the past, I'm starting to think that it may just not be true.
Its easy to see that an alien commander can continue to spread infestation and expand his territory even while the aliens continuously attack the marines, but we often forget about the huge advantages the marine commander has in this field. As we know, for the small cost of building a power node, the marine team can build anywhere on the entire map, essentially instantaneously. They can also build several times faster than the alien team could ever feasibly hope to.
That isn't to say that no imbalance exists in this area, but its easy to feel like the alien team has all the advantages when it comes to expanding. All that is required is a few tweaks here and there, and this dynamic can be made much more fair.
An alien kham can cyst, drop 2 harvesters, and place two whips that will be grown by the time a marine squad gets to nano, typically. This is because they are engaging an entire team with nothing better to do than put pressure on you.
Aliens are the fast team on the ground, and without the strict requirement of player presence for expansion this can make up for slightly slower "build times" , creating an all around faster team when it comes to obtaining territory sometimes. This doesn't always bode well for a game that's founded on map control.
But no one intelligent would ever spend 30 Tres on Whips at the start of a game. There's simply no benefit to it.
Marine comms on the other hand have all hands full with trying to coordinate marines, need to watch where they are to drop stuff, build the base at the same time and so on. There imho is no point in early/midgame where you got only half as much time to coordinate your marines like the Khamm has. So from the start, marines do have a disadvantage from the economical and teamplay point of view.
I think this is also a thing indirectly caused by the change in alien ressource model.
I mean, both teams got ported nearly 1:1 from NS1. Only thing that really changed on Aliens is the new res/khamm thing. Problem is, NS1 was not made for an alien commander and tres model. So it is only logical that this whole thing does not work too well in NS2.
Basically Aliens got one bird's-eyed player who can see/hear marines running around and building. He might have to build some stuff from time to time but this only takes a few seconds every now and then and basically he can not screw it up, so even the worst khamm will only not really help his team. A good khamm on the other hand can keep his team informed about EVERYTHING going on around the map making him far more valueable than just another skulk.
And there lies a big part of the current imbalance which is so hard to pinpoint. Because the khamm feature does not fit the unterlying alien economical model and tech tree, it enables the khamm to be anything between no burden and an intelligent wallhack.
Also this makes clear why imbalance is so hard to pin to certain aspects of the game:
Generally the influence of the alien khamm is regarded as fairly small because of his non-existant screw-up potential. However I think his potential to really help his team by telling where marines are building/heading is really disregarded by the community this far.
I don't have to tell you this is a whole different world concerning the marine comm.
I know it's a common place that marine comm is harder than alien khamm but I think it's interesting that the reason at least in my opinion goes back to the underlying eco/techtree. It also reinforces OP's point that Aliens got forced into a economical/gameplay model that does not really fit them.
In NS1, you were familiar enough with the playerbase that you knew precisely how good you were, that is if someone were better, than you would let them go fade first
and instead choose to build a harvester with your res. But if you were relatively, the best player on your team, then you would tell your team that you would go fade first.
In NS2, since the playerbase is large, this type of intimate "knowing" is not possible, and asking for sacrifices makes little sense because the Call of Duty players won't know that they aren't worth anything.
Hugh confirmed official stats have aliens at a 60% win rate. I hope we can stop the ridiculous discussion on whether or not this game is unbalanced now and focus on actually addressing the systemic issues rather than its symptoms.
There's a NS 1 mod for NS 2, you should definitely check it out. Unfortunately it doesn't get nearly the amount of players it deserves though. I suppose it's a big step for most players as it does feel completely different since they've done more than just changed the economy (i.e got rid of the alien commander) For me personally that's the most important part, if there was a mod that did just that I would LOVE it.
Was anyone really questioning that? I think people are questioning whether your "real culprit" is the actual root cause of the balance issue or not.
This isn't how the game should be. Yes, it was nice to have such a strong sense of teamwork, and to make sacrifices for the greater good, but that isn't how mainstream games work. If I want to go fade, I should be able to go fade. It doesn't matter if its my first day, or if I'm blind with no arms. Its my res, and I should be able to spend it as I see fit. Its the commanders job to take care of the strategy part, and its my job to run around and try to kill people. Sure, if you want to take it to the next level of play, you are going to need a higher level of teamwork, but that shouldn't be required at the most basic level of play.
That's the heart of the balance issue.
There, I said it.
It's vital for the RTS component to work that both sides are subject to the same economic ruleset. Though one could argue that this is only partially the case anyway since alien p.res works differently from marine one and t.res is worth less on top of that because it needs to be spent on less. Messing with income rates just wouldn't be a good idea. They COULD consider messing with some of the lifeform costs, though that would also affect the timing of higher lifeforms which is not necessarily something they want.
Well obviously. If one team wins more often than the other then that is pretty much the definition of "being easier to play". But why are they easier to play? Is the skulk easier to use than the marine? Is the Onos easier than an Exo? Is Lerk easier than a jetpack? Is alien commander easier than marine commander? If so, does alien commander have as big an impact as the marine commander? Does that even it out? If not, why not?
Now you argue about NS2 having to cater to the mainstream while other people demanding no change to balance say, it's because NS2 is a niche game.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2070605/#Comment_2070605
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2070541/#Comment_2070541
NS2 is not going to get CoD players to come over by being just another shooter like CoD. Most people bought the game because it is different, not Call of Duty green ops 5000.
Skulk is easier than marine, unless you rush a bunch of marines by yourself constantly.
Lerk, and Fade take skill to play well.
Most people are terrible though.
ie: Spiking floor lerks.
Onos takes no skill at all, besides "Oh, I'm half dead, I better run."
Alien commander is easier than marine commander, and can have a huge impact on the game.
The alien comm's involvement in what's going on isn't as direct as the marine comm's is.
That is:
The marine com can have a direct influence on combat at any time.
The alien com has to have a drifter in the area to use enzyme.
The alien commander doesn't need babysitters to build his/her structures, and can expand faster than the marines can, in multiple directions at once(I routinely cyst two-three directions at once).
The thing is, towards the end game, the alien com has less, and less to do once all the upgrades have been dropped.
Where as the marine comm is frantically scanning, medding, dropping ammo, and trying to herd a bunch of wet cats to Repair to get that last hive down, no you don't need an exo, just weld the arcs goddamnit!
IMO NS2 tries to cater too much to the mainstream gamer by trying to offer something (i.e personal weapon and lifeform choice) this game truly doesn't need to be succesful. NS 2 pretty much sold its soul when it started catering to individual player preferences rather than the overarching strategy necessity when it comes to upgrades and lifeforms. There's already enough mainstream FPS games out there that do just that and games like DOTA have shown that even more complex and seemingly 'less mainstream' can very well appeal to a large audience.
/ns1nostalgia
If we'd get rid of p.res, not only would the whole economic imbalance be solved in an instance (no tech explosions, etc), you'd also enable a much larger degree of strategic depth and dynamic gameplay as a result, with an even greater focus on teamwork.
Is the price of individual 'freedom' truly too great if it allows us to acquire better balance, teamwork and strategic depth?
I'm inclined to say it isn't. Are you really going to tell me that those 2 - 3 times you get to pick a lifeform or weapon in your average game are that important?
One major thing it'd solve:
People saving for Onos/Exosuits, even if their team is losing.
This is my biggest pet peeve.
It'd also give the marine commander A LOT more control over pushes.
If marines couldn't spend all their res on JP+<Insert Weapon Here>, they'd probably be more inclined to stay with the group.
The only downside I could see would be commanders that refuse to drop weapons for people.
I know a lot of new and/or immature players would get really mad about that, especially if the commander told them "No, you're bad, you're not getting anything."
It didnt really have anything to do with knowing who was better. People who were bad could fade or lerk or do whatever they wanted, and frequently did (you've heard of the wall of lame right?).
'Good Player' in NS1 had a variety of meanings. A good fade was not necessarily a good skulk or a good gorge or a good lerk. People chose the role they enjoyed the most (and usually that is the role that they are best at). NS1 catered to more gameplay styles than NS2 does. Allowing for people to build/support as gorge, scout/support as lerk, hit&run as fade or be cannonfodder/chew RTs as skulk. As a result sacrifices are rarely made (except in somewhat extreme situations) as players enjoy filling those roles. In an mmo it isnt a sacrifice to play a healing class that a dps class must make, it is the same situation here.
There was a post by IronHorse I think which said about TF2 classes benefitting each other without a concrete dependency on another class for survival. I would argue that NS1 provided this.
As to being mainstream, NS1 did well enough to warrant a paid-for sequel despite being a very niche game. Supposedly "too complex for new players to get into" yet the success of that niche has provided us with NS2, which has somewhat alienated those of us who played and enjoyed NS1
Hell, NS2 is pretty simple too.
The hardest part(other than aim, or commanding), is learning the maps.
I agree on the non-sacrifice part. I always loved to be a gorge and happily would put all my res into rts/chambers/Hives. I really liked the very strong teamplay aspect of this class. The team was dependend on the gorge and therefor protected them.
In NS2 I miss the "gorge feeling" of NS1. While the gorge got stronger in terms of pure combat ability, I think he's considerably less fun to play.
I don't think the main reason for NS1 being such a niche game was the complexity. I think one major problem was that at the time there basically were 1000 good and interesting HL1 mods to play. In fact looking back it seems unreal from a today's perspective how many very good mods were out there. Of course there were the heavy hitters like CS and DoD but also many more.
So all these mods had to share the same playerbase and for a mod that was released later than said CA and CoD it was just hard to get the attention, especially as there was no steam around then to spread the word. I myself learnt of NS1 more by accident than anything.
It's too short for this kind of a game, honestly. 30 minutes at the least. With such short times, the slightest mistake can make the game end.
On the topic of balance, I was watching a recent competitive game of NS2 that WasabiOne casted. The marines had locked the aliens down into a single hive, with an easy 600 res lead, and were sieging the alien's hive. A few crags, and two gorges, were able to outheal THREE ARC cannons. With a single whip in between the marines and the hive, using GLs was ineffective because of the whip's knockback.
There are balance issues deeply rooted in this game, as you stated with the economy. But there are also fundamental problems with how each team deals with certain roles. The aliens' defense is mostly based in offense: making the marines constantly fall back and defend points is a good enough defense while the Khammander just builds things up and advances tech unhindered. In the competitive game I mentioned earlier, a single gorge kept running back into the marine base and throwing bile bombs, until eventually his team joined him, and they took out the marines in a matter of seconds. The marines SHOULD have won that game, they had an obvious lead, and had the aliens cornered, but had such difficulty just entering the aliens' base and ending it, that the game dragged on and they lost.
I think a root of the problem lies with how UWE favors the aliens so much. People complain about marine sentries, but they have a limited arc of fire, are fragile, and cost a lot of res to place down. Hydras are only 19 res (10 gorge + 3 res each * 3) and do about 15 damage per shot, have a decently long range, and aren't exactly fragile. A SINGLE whip put down in the right spot renders a GL utterly pointless, unless set on fire (oh boy, I get to spend 50 PRes on weapons, and have to suicide to temporarily disable the whip so I can grenade it. Oh no, a gorge healed it and it's no longer on fire, also my face is being eaten). There are just so many balance issues related to NS2 that It's caused me to not want to play any more, and I'm a PRE-ALPHA customer.
I agree, that the economy of the aliens is part of the problem. Also many others have made good points.
I don't agree with "Skulks should be weaker than marines in 1vs1 or 2vs2 because aliens tech faster". It would be a strong cut into the fun, when the early game balance between skulks and marines wouldn't be balanced. Changing it the way, that more aliens are bound to economy-tasks (gorges need to build up things) is also a big cut into the fun. It is already boring to build up a hive. So instead of changing this, we should just introduce more tech for the aliens. So they need as long as marines to tech up to the same level. They can keep their player-independent economy, but their economy is tweaked to compensate for this fact. This tech needs to be simple to implement and shouldn't overpower the aliens further. We should also keep in mind, that the appearance of higher lifeforms isn't really coupled to the t-res spent in tech. In regards to that, what could we do?
Preface: I wanted to come up with something, that doesn't "nerf" the aliens. Something that most of all should not decrease the fun it is to play aliens. It should be something that adds to the game instead. But at the same time is useful to take some pressure from the marines and increase the "difficulty" to play aliens to the point it is similar to the marines. I think both ideas were already mentioned in this thread. Lets start:
Some had the idea to get rid of pres at aliens and let the com buy the lifeforms. How about coupling this with:
* The cost of this don't need to be this high like they are right now for buying t-res eggs, because they are now also p-res bound.
* It is asymmetrical to the marine team.
* It gives the alien com more to do and also more influence on the tactics and lifeform mix at the battlefield.
* It doesn't take away to much freedom from the alien players.
Sure, it takes away a little bit of fun from the alien player, because he can't spend his p-res like he wants to. If no lifeforms are in the pool, (that he wants to play) he can't spend his p-res at all. Thats what leads us to the second tweak:
* This slows the alien economy. Gorges won't place cysts as fast as coms can.
* It takes alien players from the front lines with a more interesting task than holding Mouse2 while looking at a building.
* It introduces a new meta game: "Hide the cyst!" because you can place them now an walls and ceilings again. It is a p-res dump.
* Cutting cyst-chains now is a real deal.
* Expanding the cyst-chain is now dangerous, Gorges can get killed while expanding without cover.
* It increases the team-play-demand on the alien side and introduces more ways for mistakes, like marines already have.
I think at least one of this points could already be enough to bring the balance back.
While you are certainly correct that there significant imbalances aside of the economy, I would like to argue that even these are ultimately largely a byproduct of the broken economy. Aside from the fact that a few gorges and crags can outheal ARCs, why is it that marines with a 600 t.res advantage don't have a significant lead on aliens? First and foremost that is because aside from harvesters, the second hive and 2 upgrades as well as 3 relatively 'vital' upgrades (leap, bilebomb, blink), the alien t.res economy simply doesn't have to invest in anything else for aliens to be competitive. All t.res gained from that point is then spent on spamming whips, crags and shifts, as well as on even more higher lifeforms.
If we look at the basic cost estimate of what a 'competitive' alien side needs it is:
40 for hive
30 for first upgrade (cara or cele)
30 for second upgrade (cara or cele)
30 for crag and shift upgrade on hive
25 for leap
20 for bilebomb
30 for blink
205 t.res. With just this and p.res lifeforms who require no prior t.res research, aliens are going to be competitive even against lategame marines.
Now for the marine side it looks like this:
15 extra IP
10 armory
15 obs
15 PG tech
30 2 PGs (minimum, but let's be honest, they'll need more.
5 Welders
20 Shotguns
20 Arms Lab
150 Armour and Weapons 3
20 Adv Armory
15 Second CC
40 Proto Lab
25 JPs
380! That's almost double what alien need in t.res. And mind you I am omitting 'optional' things like EXOs, flamethrowers, gls, arcs, sentries and mines. (not to mention scans, ammo and med drops) This is the VERY basics of what marines need to invest in order to be competitive with the 205 t.res alien investment. Even if you calculate in the fact that aliens spend 1 t.res per cyst and need on average another 5 per harvesters, will want some shifts (10) or crags (10), they don't even come close to what marines have to spend.
So do tell me, oh wise people who claim the economy isn't broken. How exactly isn't it? How is it even remotely balanced that aliens are competitive at just 2 hives and are competitive for late game at almost half the cost as marines? Aliens get to the late-game faster if they are not crippled heavily from the get-go (less than half of the marine amount of extractors), which means marines have a very narrow timeframe in which they stand a chance of winning. It also means that it's much harder for marines to properly delay the alien teching than it is for aliens to do so with marines (as there's less overall costs involved)
The more I think about it the more outrageous it is that UWE still hasn't made this analysis themselves. I'd say given these numbers, it's quite frankly remarkable that the winrates aren't worse than 60/40. Yes, this is an assymetric game, but no that can be no justification for the economic reality of each side being assymetric too.
Since someone mentioned Dota 2, I like the game concept of Dota:
In early game, try to get some money (and xp), you dont aim for getting kills.
In mid game, you try to kill (gank) the enemy and kill their structures to get an advantage.
In end game, you assault their base.
Kills give gold for the killer as well as any assists and dead players dont recieve gold while they are dead.
Exchange gold for res and this would work for NS too.
I think this is an interesting idea, but I think it would require some adjustment to how T- and P-res are divided for the aliens. Otherwise, the khamm would get a new Tres sink, while the FPS players would be forced to hold onto their Pres until the khamm is able to put some new eggs into the pool.
On a related note, I think the Pres cost for gorges should be increased somehow. Right now, it is way too easy for a player to suicide bilebomb a marine base 4 or 5 times in mid-game, cause a good bit of trouble for the marines and still come out with enough res to evolve back into gorge to support an onos.
Perhaps a gorge could cost 20 Pres, but that gives him 3 free hydras (any hydras after the third would cost the usual 3 Pres, until the player respawns and goes gorge again). That way, we're still able to insta-drop hydras at the beginning of the game, but a player with 50 pres would only be able to suicide bilebomb a base 2 or 3 times!
I remember reading somewhere that this was actually the case during some builds in the Beta. It sounds fun, especially since it creates some more interaction between the khamm and the gorge on the field. It would also be another Pres sink to prevent suicide bilebomb gorges. This would encourage teams to have one player as perma-gorge in each match.
Seriously, most of the time I play marines, it is far more challenging
1) How about the cyst placement get changed so that you can't drop a new cyst until it is on existing infestation? Current cyst mechanics allow you to put a cyst on empty ground ahead of the previous cyst. By limiting where cysts can be placed, you slow down the alien super expansion you often see at the start of a game where the alien comm grabs as many as 4 RTs within a minute. Then also change it so that the infestation from an existing newly-dropped cyst expands faster.
2) When a cyst chain is cut, the affected harvester(s) are temporarily disabled and do not give res (if this isn't already the case).
3) Dropping a new hive requires a cyst chain extending from any existing hive, and only if the tech point (the square on the floor) is completely covered with infestation. If the cyst chain is cut, the hive slows to 50% growth rate until the cyst chain is reconnected.
4) Marines are no longer heard or detected on infestation unless they basically step on a cyst.
5) Gorges are required to drop cysts (which will no longer cost any res...just energy). Select the cyst ability, aim ahead like aiming a clog, and drop it. The cyst pops out at 80% hp/armor, and 50% maturity. This would be the biggest nerf of all the suggestions, but it WILL require more teamwork on the part of the aliens...and it will also screw over aliens on the competitive side of things. I honestly don't see this one being considered seriously.
6) Leave all the current game mechanics alone, gorges are now required to drop harvesters...which cost 5 Tres. If this is done, then the gorges will need to be protected by skulks and will probably need their base movement bumped up a bit. Also a big nerf and not likely to be considered as it would basically diminish the role of the alien com.
all of these nerf suggestions were made off the top of my head