@SquishyOne I think affording a fade egg at the 5 minute mark is very much accomplishable, if it would be needed.
Your argument has a flaw: higher alien lifeforms are meant to require multiple marines to take them out. Disregarding the obvious example of the onos, fades and lerks are always able to win or at least escape from a 1on1 encounter with a marine. When all these lifeforms pop out, there are not enough marines available to kill them.
But saying that the game is unbalanced because you're basing that assumption off of a handful of servers where the ratio is something like 42%/58% is just ridiculous. You can't look at such a small bit of data and take that as the standard. I haven't experienced aliens just dominating every game regardless of whether I play on 16 or 24 player servers.
I'm surprised there's still people out there who are truly convinced this game isn't imbalanced. Even some of UWE's staff openly acknowledge there's serious balance problems and that's quite certainly also the only reason we haven't seen them throw their stats at us like they have in the past. One need only look at the competitive match-ups to see this belief further reinforced.
This thread starts on the premise that there's a serious imbalance in the game and that is a premise the majority of this community tends to agree with. If you don't, good for you, but I won't waste any more time debating it, it's been done too many times over elsewhere.
I'm not saying there are no balance issues but I'm saying it's minor and really only amplified at the pub level due to player inexperience. How often do you see comms try to build an arc factory on top of a power node right off the bat or go for turrets before getting upgrades or even something as simple as welders or rt's? The answer I see is quite often. And really I don't even see the benefit of a factory on a power node since I don't have a problem killing it with one on there especially with bile. But I stand by this point, NS2stats is not a source of hard evidence about balance, if you look at what servers are providing data, the vast majority of them have not updated since 6-15 days. Only about 4 are actually from the past 2 days really.
Can't agree, you're saying that pretty much aliens win a lot because it's easier for them to get res.
You seem to have entirely misunderstood my opening post. Not once did I say it's easier for aliens to get res. Instead I pointed out that aliens require no t.res to unlock lategame lifeforms which gives them a significant timing advantage over marines who need both t.res as well as p.res. Yes, an onos requires upgrades from two hives to be truly effective , but that's peanuts in regards to the t.res that has to be spent on getting to jps and exos. (Not to mention the aliens have very little other things to spend t.res on if not on those upgrades and harvesters)
Or like I stated in a comment:
Actually what I'm suggesting is that the cause of alien imbalance is:
- Too many high lifeforms arriving at the same time, as well as too many lifeforms being thrown at the marines over the entire duration of a game.
- Aliens having a significant tech (timing) advantage due to lifeforms being p.res when all marine p.res investment require prior t.res unlocking.
Also, the result of no gorges being required to build anything like in NS 1 is that there's more skulks fighting those marines, which also skews the early marine vs alien engagements! It's all closely related, really.
Right you're saying the aliens get too many higher lifeforms quickly... That is saying res is gotten too quickly... And you're saying that it costs tres for marines but not for aliens. Well the problem with that is a fade with no upgrades might as well just stay on hive defense because a marine with an lmg can off them pretty quickly. 500 damage from 50 lmg shots or 1 magazine, is more than enough to kill a fade that only takes 350 damage or so without carapace. That's really only 35 shots, so yea team res is pretty important. And considering those upgrades can be taken away for a good bit of time and at a far greater cost than marine upgrades it's pretty fair. Also figure in things like blink, spores, bile bomb, and leap and it's not that far off. Leap costs 20 tres to research but isn't really a hard counter to everything like a shotgun is right now.
As for there being more skulks available to fight things, there needs to be. It takes 9 lmg bullets to kill a skulk, so someone with decent aim should win just about every encounter against a skulk early game if they aren't being snuck up on. If you play aliens against a few good marines you'll be extremely frustrated at how quickly you die trying to kill just one of them, I know I have. Really though you can theory craft all day, it won't make up for the differences in play styles and skill levels so balance will always be very difficult. Some things in the past like early onos were pretty unbalanced but even changing that didn't mean instantly more wins for marines. Even with all the buffs marines got and performance and hit reg fixes, it still hasn't made a huge shift. So as far as balance goes, I think it's just a lot better players are going aliens more often if anything.
Didn't read the whole thing boo I'm a bad person BUT
The fact that marines were the overpowered team in some patches (the claim that aliens were almost always overpowered during the beta is exaggerated in my opinion) shows that if there is some issue to be had with the resource model, its nothing that can't be overcome with changes elsewhere.
People think of balance as this large sequence of equations, each of which must balance perfectly in order for the game as a whole to be balanced. In actual fact, I think its more of a single huge equation with many different elements to it. No one element will ensure an irreversible and uncorrectable imbalance.
Whether or not you find the resulting equation fun, however, is completely up to you. I think you are looking for a resource model (and more) closer to the one seen in NS1. Nostalgia can be great sometimes, but I think in this case it is going to prevent you from ever seeing the new equation as fun.
I agree that the economy is troublesome for balance. I think the rationale was that with identical models, it would be much easier to balance the game at multiple player-counts because things could be treated as equivalents. In reality, this was a bit naive as they teams are so different and operate in such fundamentally different ways - that this was never going to be of much help.
I'd say that the more equal economic models haven't been fine tuned enough to truly balance NS2 across multiple playercounts, but that it has more potential to do so than the NS1 model. Separating critical structure and lifeform economies makes it much easier to adjust one without adversely effecting the other.
As for game balance, I think the critical issue is the fundamental skulk v AR marine combat. Much of the game has been designed such that early game skulks and marines are pretty close to even in 1v1/2v2 situations. Instead, marines should be at the advantage in these early game combat situations since they are 1) slower to tech up and 2) slower to move around the map. In fact, the game has shown much closer balance during builds that either intentionally or accidentally nerfed early game skulks (e.g. the release build which had the more restrictive wave spawning/low egg spawn rate).
The alien commander has given the alien team free reign to constantly assault the marines, keeping them on their heels. While the marines try and secure a tech point, you're killing their extractors. If marines try and push to your end to attack harvesters, then you rush their base and take out the power node.
Your two lists are nearly-identical, with the exception of 'build power nodes'. It could just as easily be reversed into 'Kill Aliens & Alien stuff'
Sorry, disagree. Why? Because aliens have SPEED. Any alien team with any competence will be engaging the marines on the MARINE side of the map. This leaves the khamm with an easy job.
Aliens don't have to build ANYTHING. Identical list? Please... Marines are responsible for building all of their base structures AND all of their extractors AND all of the power nodes they build near. Not to mention they do this while under constant alien attack. What do aliens build? Nothing. The khamm does it all. Base structures, harvesters and cysts (akin to marine power nodes in a roundabout way) are all things that aliens have no need to build - and they rarely need to defend them since marines rarely reach their hive. How many early game hive attacks do you see versus how many marine start attacks? Hmmm?
The khamm's job is easy since he faces no resistance. If marines make it to the alien side of the map then either the aliens are not doing their job, or they are about to press the "I win" power node button in marine spawn.
Marines lose more often because they usually fail to juggle all of their responsibilities.
The only alien responsibility is to 'kill'. There is no comparison to the marines. That's one of the foundational asymmetries in this game.
And Marines are REAL SLOW right? Between sprinting, PGs, JPs and beacon, Marines are pretty mobile. Also, the Marine commander's job is just as easy when he faces NO RESISTANCE. Man, it's hard to believe that the commander's job would be easy with no resistance. The Aliens have more responsibility than to kill. You NEED Gorges a lot of the time. You NEED someone to build the Hive sometimes. Marines can be aggressive, especially on maps like Docking, and you will be forced to defend.
Oh, and on the topic of Marines having to build. It literally takes seconds. Marine structures are also WAY BETTER than alien structures.
You're going to get a ton of disagrees from people who, largely, either don't understand the problem, or suffer terminal normalcy bias. I agree entirely, while I do think the days of having 2-3 players sacrifice their res for team items are over, there's just got to be a better way.
Unless we force Aliens to dump pres on something or stagger the Alien resource gain with something like RFK, we still going to see 5+ Fades and/or 3+ Onos pop up at the same time in pubs. With the Khamannder in place there really isn't a way to force people to dump pres though.
i like the idea of NO MORE PRES AS ALIEN, and dumping all res to commander, then making him produce eggs on demand, and adjust costs accordingly.
Then he would basically be handing out weapons like the Marine commander in NS1. That's never going to happen.
As for game balance, I think the critical issue is the fundamental skulk v AR marine combat. Much of the game has been designed such that early game skulks and marines are pretty close to even in 1v1/2v2 situations. Instead, marines should be at the advantage in these early game combat situations since they are 1) slower to tech up and 2) slower to move around the map. In fact, the game has shown much closer balance during builds that either intentionally or accidentally nerfed early game skulks (e.g. the release build which had the more restrictive wave spawning/low egg spawn rate).
Exactly. If lerks are capable of killing multiple marines, fades are meant to take on 2-3 marines, and an onos is meant to take on 3-4 marines. When exactly are the marines supposed to start winning?
For competitive play at least, simply halving the rate Crags heal buildings would make a MASSIVE balance difference, because right now marines simply can't shoot down hives if the aliens have res to drop crags.
They invested in crags? Invest in GL's, that'll sort those crags out, and before you say whips, shoot the fucking whips down with lmgs.
EDIT: I'll agree with OP that the alien economy is the main source of any balance issues. I still think it's fairly close to ok as it is though. People just need to play marines better, we'll get there, they have to learn first.
Exactly. If lerks are capable of killing multiple marines, fades are meant to take on 2-3 marines, and an onos is meant to take on 3-4 marines. When exactly are the marines supposed to start winning?
This is pretty much how it works out in marine wins in comp matches. Marines dominate the early game against skulks, start to become more even when lerks come out, and begin to lose ground when the fades evolve. The key factor is how long the marines can delay the fades as many comp matches are decided by whether the aliens can get fades before the 15 min mark.
Thats right SixtyWattman, the only way for the marines to win is to attack the aliens before they have enough res to get high lifeforms. Early, aggressive marine pressure on alien RTs. Sadly, the only way to pull that off AND build up your base & rts is to beat the aliens in their home turf with a numerical disadvantage.
I don't know if people just don't get this, or they think it's just wrong in the first place. But marines dominate the EARLY game, they can win, pretty much every trade early game, they can probably go for the win too. Aliens do better (I won't say dominate) LATE game. If you let the aliens get to their late game I think you played wrong, marines have a window where it's easy to win, you can't ignore that window then complain when it closes that you can't finish the game.
I'd say that the more equal economic models haven't been fine tuned enough to truly balance NS2 across multiple playercounts, but that it has more potential to do so than the NS1 model. Separating critical structure and lifeform economies makes it much easier to adjust one without adversely effecting the other.
Yeah, that definitely counts for something. Saying that, if it doesn't achieve the (primary?) goal of helping to scale balance, then I'm not sure it was worth the overhaul but I guess that's another story.
I don't know if people just don't get this, or they think it's just wrong in the first place. But marines dominate the EARLY game, they can win, pretty much every trade early game, they can probably go for the win too. Aliens do better (I won't say dominate) LATE game. If you let the aliens get to their late game I think you played wrong, marines have a window where it's easy to win, you can't ignore that window then complain when it closes that you can't finish the game.
I find marines dominate the early game and the late late game (like 20 minutes and above), but since the vast majority of games end in the 10-20 minute region, when the aliens are strongest, you get the balance figures we have now.
I completely disagree. The problem with balance is HIT REG HIT REG HIT REG, and it varies from server to server. The amount of achievable resources early game is slightly favorable towards marines since they can get their extractors up quicker. In order to play this game at an competitive (not professionally) level you should be running a 4.2 CPU+. Other wise you are guessing where to aim at. This hits marines the hardest. Evidence look back at the beta builds. It is expected in any FPS that when I place my retical on a target and the bullets show me hitting the target it actually hits the target.
Side note: once they fix the server performance, hit registration, game performance you will see a swing of wins over to the marine side. In till then I will wait 2 more CPU generation to run this game properly with out having to OC my CPU.
There needs to be more lifeforms and marines purchases added through out the game rather then less. We already spend to much time as base marines or skulks. In a 30 minute game how many time do you upgrade to a higher life form or purchase marine upgrades.
Because aliens have SPEED. Any alien team with any competence will be engaging the marines on the MARINE side of the map. This leaves the khamm with an easy job. Aliens don't have to build ANYTHING. ... The only alien responsibility is to 'kill'. There is no comparison to the marines. That's one of the foundational asymmetries in this game.
And Marines are REAL SLOW right? Between sprinting, PGs, JPs and beacon, Marines are pretty mobile.
You can't afford phase gates right off the start or you won't have res to build extractors. If you're building phase gates before your first two extractors you're in for a quick loss. Jetpacks are very late game, which is not what I was talking about. My point is about how the game is established - say the first 5-10 minutes at most. Jetpacks are proto lab, and the game is usually all but decided at that point.
Also, the Marine commander's job is just as easy when he faces NO RESISTANCE.
But that never happens. By all means, show me a game where aliens never attacked any of the marine's structures.
Marines can be aggressive, especially on maps like Docking, and you will be forced to defend.
If aliens are back on their heels in the early game then they fail at playing alien. It should never happen unless teams are stacked. Skulks have speed and will ALWAYS meet the marines on their side of the map. Sprint will not get you to the alien side of the map before the skulk gets there. With only a couple paths to a given hive, you're gonna run into skulks and you're gonna get rolled.
Oh, and on the topic of Marines having to build. It literally takes seconds.
Many seconds. Many PRECIOUS seconds not being used to do anything else except stand and press a button.
IP: 7 seconds
Armory: 12 seconds
Extractor: 12 seconds
Phase gate: 12 seconds
Observatory: 15 seconds
Comm chair: 15 seconds
Power node: 3 seconds to build
Power node: 15 seconds to repair
All of that time spent standing around. Doing nothing. While aliens are on the move in your direction. That time adds up VERY fast when seconds count. Especially when you have to play whack-a-moleskulk with attacks on extractors.
Marine structures are also WAY BETTER than alien structures.
Really?
Time for skulk to kill an extractor? 25 seconds
Time for skulk to kill a power node? 24 seconds
Time for a marine to kill a harvester with axe? 27 seconds
The fact that marines were the overpowered team in some patches (the claim that aliens were almost always overpowered during the beta is exaggerated in my opinion) shows that if there is some issue to be had with the resource model, its nothing that can't be overcome with changes elsewhere.
I'm sorry but that makes 0 sense. You can make skulk bite 25 damage one patch and the alien win rate would plummet but that wouldn't in any way mean the alien economic model isn't imbalanced.
TLDR: Proper soft RPS mechanics and roles are needed for the new resource model to work.
This point definitely has merit ironhorse, but tech explosions are only one part of the problem. What about the economic discrepancy as a result of alien lifeforms not costing any significant t.res pre-req research while all marine equivalents do?
This is pretty much how it works out in marine wins in comp matches. Marines dominate the early game against skulks, start to become more even when lerks come out, and begin to lose ground when the fades evolve. The key factor is how long the marines can delay the fades as many comp matches are decided by whether the aliens can get fades before the 15 min mark.
This is also what I'm getting it. If marines would be getting as heavily pressured as aliens are generally in competitive teams, it'd be GG, with aliens however, because of the p.res clock ticking on and no significant t.res having to be invested on just one lifeform, aliens can easily sit on 2 harvesters for the biggest part of a game and then still come out on top once fades and onos come out. I cringe everytime I hear a shoutcaster mention that aliens only need 2 - 3 harvesters to be doing well while marines need 4 - 5. HOW is that acceptable? It isn't and it shows how far we've come in accepting this broken economic reality as something 'normal'.
I'd say that the more equal economic models haven't been fine tuned enough to truly balance NS2 across multiple playercounts, but that it has more potential to do so than the NS1 model. Separating critical structure and lifeform economies makes it much easier to adjust one without adversely effecting the other.
As long as there is no bigger t.res pre-req investment needed before aliens can get certain lifeforms there is no such thing as an equal economic model to be honest.
Then he would basically be handing out weapons like the Marine commander in NS1. That's never going to happen.
To be fair, getting rid of p.res in favour of a much more simple, solid and balanced economic model, which also gives commanders more strategic power, would imo be a VERY sensible move. Yes, you lose player freedom to play what you want to some extent, but one could very well start wondering if that would be such a big deal anyway. Heck, you could even have a system where the commander converts t.res into upgrade points for players to use (keeping their freedom)...
Yeah, that definitely counts for something. Saying that, if it doesn't achieve the (primary?) goal of helping to scale balance, then I'm not sure it was worth the overhaul but I guess that's another story.
Fair point. Just because the NS2 model is potentially easier to balance doesn't mean UWE has the time and resources necessary to do so better than the NS1 model. However, I'm optimistic since UWE has shown the ability to do so in the past (NS1) and been able to stretch their limited resources quite far (NS2).
The fact that marines were the overpowered team in some patches (the claim that aliens were almost always overpowered during the beta is exaggerated in my opinion) shows that if there is some issue to be had with the resource model, its nothing that can't be overcome with changes elsewhere.
I'm sorry but that makes 0 sense. You can make skulk bite 25 damage one patch and the alien win rate would plummet but that wouldn't in any way mean the alien economic model isn't imbalanced.
The resource model means nothing. The game isn't about having the best resource model. You don't win when you get to 1000 resource points. The resource model lies almost entirely in the meta game, which only affects the real game through the things that the resources give you. Change those things, and you don't necessarily change the resource model, but you change its effect on the game, which is all that matters.
But that never happens. By all means, show me a game where aliens never attacked any of the marine's structures.
Are you for real?
I should ask you. It was you that said:
Also, the Marine commander's job is just as easy when he faces NO RESISTANCE. Man, it's hard to believe that the commander's job would be easy with no resistance.
So by all means, describe these games where the marines face - as you said - "NO RESISTANCE". That never happens.
Marine structures are also WAY BETTER than alien structures.
Sentries vs Hydras?
Shift AoE vs Armory range?
Whips vs .. ?
Ehh.. thats arguable.
Arms Lab vs Shell/Veil/Spur?
Armory (requires close range but is faster and considerably cheaper) vs 3 or more Crags+Shift
Observatory vs Shade (Hint, one of them completely counters the other and can do so from anywhere on the map for a small res cost)
Phase Gate vs ..?
Look. I can pick and choose too. But I meant overall.
But that never happens. By all means, show me a game where aliens never attacked any of the marine's structures.
Are you for real?
I should ask you. It was you that said:
Also, the Marine commander's job is just as easy when he faces NO RESISTANCE. Man, it's hard to believe that the commander's job would be easy with no resistance.
So by all means, describe these games where the marines face - as you said - "NO RESISTANCE". That never happens.
I think you completely misunderstood me. THE GAME SHOULDN'T BE BALANCED AROUND ASSUMING THE COMMANDER IS GETTING NO RESISTANCE FROM THE OPPOSING TEAM. WE SHOULD ASSUME BOTH TEAM HAVE COMPETENT PLAYERS AND ARE PUTTING UP RESISTANCE.
The resource model means nothing. The game isn't about having the best resource model. You don't win when you get to 1000 resource points. The resource model lies almost entirely in the meta game, which only affects the real game through the things that the resources give you. Change those things, and you don't necessarily change the resource model, but you change its effect on the game, which is all that matters.
You seem to have confused resource model with economic model. This isn't just about how resources are collected and spent, it's about how both teams use 2 resource pools (t.res and p.res) which while seemingly being 'identical' across the factions are in actuality vastly different. Alien p.res use requires no prior t.res investment, when you hit 75 pres you go onos, this is not the case with marines, who require t.res investments for everything they can purchase. Not only does the marine t.res economy thus have to be put to work on expanding marine map control and improving marine performance (like with alien t.res) it also has to enable marines to use their p.res.
If you would look at it in economic terms, this means that the marine t.res is of a higher value (more and qualitatively higher demand) than the alien one, both teams gather at the same rates but one team (the alien side) has a lot less things it needs to spend t.res on, and significantly less CRUCIAL things. Aliens can very well hold on with just a few harvesters, as long as they get a second hive and 2 upgrades they are easily set to stay into the game until marines reach a crucial tech point, provided they reach that point before higher alien lifeforms are available p.res wise. So the alien T.res economy can suffer much harder than the marine one, it's much more resilient because it has less crucial things to be spent on, and as a result aliens have a much easier time staying in a game.
THE GAME SHOULDN'T BE BALANCED AROUND ASSUMING THE COMMANDER IS GETTING NO RESISTANCE FROM THE OPPOSING TEAM. WE SHOULD ASSUME BOTH TEAM HAVE COMPETENT PLAYERS AND ARE PUTTING UP RESISTANCE.
The 'resistance' happens on the **marine** side of the map. That's why the khamm gets to do his thing without being bothered. That's why the khamm has no resistance. Skulks are FASTER. Skulks meet the marines on the MARINE side of the map. That's where the battles are. If marines are making it to the alien hive in the early game then aliens are being massively outplayed. In normal circumstance, after the game starts, aliens will first meet the marines at about the first res node outside marine base. That's where the battle line is drawn. From there marines push out, and the aliens work to prevent it.
If a marine was able to walk - uncontested - all the way from spawn to the alien hive, aliens have FAILED in the most basic task of the game. No marine should ever make it past the halfway point of the map in the early game, not unless aliens are being massively outplayed. All routes to the alien side should (and usually are) covered by fast moving skulks. The early game engagements should (and almost always are) on the marine side of the map.
OP makes a good point. I've always felt it's easier for aliens to expand than marines, with the current mechanics. In pub games most of the time you can just cyst of out the hive and grab 3-4 harvesters at the get go. Meanwhile marines have to contend with the full skulk force AND build structures AND break through the lines to attack said harvesters, just to keep up. It's much more demanding than playing on the alien team.
I'd like to see what happens if the alien team would actually need a gorge to grow structures (that are placed by the comm) instead of letting structures grow by themselves.
Heck, you could even have a system where the commander converts t.res into upgrade points for players to use (keeping their freedom)...
Yes, I think that's like the Alien pres should work. One of the devs said somewhere that they wanted to give the commanders on both sides the ability to choose between spending resources on tech or "army", just like in standard RTS games. Currently, Kham egg spawning is supposed to implement the "invest in army" option.
However, this could be done differently. Remove the automatic Alien pres generation from Harvesters. Give the Kham an "Nutrient Injection" ability.
Nutrient Injection:
- Khammander ability
- always available
- costs tres
- gives a small amount of pres to every player on the team
This would also give the Kham more strategical options. For example, he could decide to skip all tech and pump the team's pres for a Lerk rush. The Kham would have greater control over the team's composition by having the option to steadily increase everyone's pres or spawn some eggs instead for selected players.
Oh, and on the topic of Marines having to build. It literally takes seconds. Marine structures are also WAY BETTER than alien structures.
What is going to build stack faster? 2-3 gorges or 2-3 marines on an RT?
This is why I see marines win more, or at least do better on high player count servers. You can have more builders available in your base(s) without significantly reducing your offensive power.
Comments
Your argument has a flaw: higher alien lifeforms are meant to require multiple marines to take them out. Disregarding the obvious example of the onos, fades and lerks are always able to win or at least escape from a 1on1 encounter with a marine. When all these lifeforms pop out, there are not enough marines available to kill them.
Seriously, I'm typing too slow.
I'm not saying there are no balance issues but I'm saying it's minor and really only amplified at the pub level due to player inexperience. How often do you see comms try to build an arc factory on top of a power node right off the bat or go for turrets before getting upgrades or even something as simple as welders or rt's? The answer I see is quite often. And really I don't even see the benefit of a factory on a power node since I don't have a problem killing it with one on there especially with bile. But I stand by this point, NS2stats is not a source of hard evidence about balance, if you look at what servers are providing data, the vast majority of them have not updated since 6-15 days. Only about 4 are actually from the past 2 days really.
Right you're saying the aliens get too many higher lifeforms quickly... That is saying res is gotten too quickly... And you're saying that it costs tres for marines but not for aliens. Well the problem with that is a fade with no upgrades might as well just stay on hive defense because a marine with an lmg can off them pretty quickly. 500 damage from 50 lmg shots or 1 magazine, is more than enough to kill a fade that only takes 350 damage or so without carapace. That's really only 35 shots, so yea team res is pretty important. And considering those upgrades can be taken away for a good bit of time and at a far greater cost than marine upgrades it's pretty fair. Also figure in things like blink, spores, bile bomb, and leap and it's not that far off. Leap costs 20 tres to research but isn't really a hard counter to everything like a shotgun is right now.
As for there being more skulks available to fight things, there needs to be. It takes 9 lmg bullets to kill a skulk, so someone with decent aim should win just about every encounter against a skulk early game if they aren't being snuck up on. If you play aliens against a few good marines you'll be extremely frustrated at how quickly you die trying to kill just one of them, I know I have. Really though you can theory craft all day, it won't make up for the differences in play styles and skill levels so balance will always be very difficult. Some things in the past like early onos were pretty unbalanced but even changing that didn't mean instantly more wins for marines. Even with all the buffs marines got and performance and hit reg fixes, it still hasn't made a huge shift. So as far as balance goes, I think it's just a lot better players are going aliens more often if anything.
The fact that marines were the overpowered team in some patches (the claim that aliens were almost always overpowered during the beta is exaggerated in my opinion) shows that if there is some issue to be had with the resource model, its nothing that can't be overcome with changes elsewhere.
People think of balance as this large sequence of equations, each of which must balance perfectly in order for the game as a whole to be balanced. In actual fact, I think its more of a single huge equation with many different elements to it. No one element will ensure an irreversible and uncorrectable imbalance.
Whether or not you find the resulting equation fun, however, is completely up to you. I think you are looking for a resource model (and more) closer to the one seen in NS1. Nostalgia can be great sometimes, but I think in this case it is going to prevent you from ever seeing the new equation as fun.
As for game balance, I think the critical issue is the fundamental skulk v AR marine combat. Much of the game has been designed such that early game skulks and marines are pretty close to even in 1v1/2v2 situations. Instead, marines should be at the advantage in these early game combat situations since they are 1) slower to tech up and 2) slower to move around the map. In fact, the game has shown much closer balance during builds that either intentionally or accidentally nerfed early game skulks (e.g. the release build which had the more restrictive wave spawning/low egg spawn rate).
And Marines are REAL SLOW right? Between sprinting, PGs, JPs and beacon, Marines are pretty mobile. Also, the Marine commander's job is just as easy when he faces NO RESISTANCE. Man, it's hard to believe that the commander's job would be easy with no resistance. The Aliens have more responsibility than to kill. You NEED Gorges a lot of the time. You NEED someone to build the Hive sometimes. Marines can be aggressive, especially on maps like Docking, and you will be forced to defend.
Oh, and on the topic of Marines having to build. It literally takes seconds. Marine structures are also WAY BETTER than alien structures.
Then he would basically be handing out weapons like the Marine commander in NS1. That's never going to happen.
Exactly. If lerks are capable of killing multiple marines, fades are meant to take on 2-3 marines, and an onos is meant to take on 3-4 marines. When exactly are the marines supposed to start winning?
They invested in crags? Invest in GL's, that'll sort those crags out, and before you say whips, shoot the fucking whips down with lmgs.
EDIT: I'll agree with OP that the alien economy is the main source of any balance issues. I still think it's fairly close to ok as it is though. People just need to play marines better, we'll get there, they have to learn first.
Shift AoE vs Armory range?
Whips vs .. ?
Ehh.. thats arguable.
I find marines dominate the early game and the late late game (like 20 minutes and above), but since the vast majority of games end in the 10-20 minute region, when the aliens are strongest, you get the balance figures we have now.
Side note: once they fix the server performance, hit registration, game performance you will see a swing of wins over to the marine side. In till then I will wait 2 more CPU generation to run this game properly with out having to OC my CPU.
There needs to be more lifeforms and marines purchases added through out the game rather then less. We already spend to much time as base marines or skulks. In a 30 minute game how many time do you upgrade to a higher life form or purchase marine upgrades.
But that never happens. By all means, show me a game where aliens never attacked any of the marine's structures. If aliens are back on their heels in the early game then they fail at playing alien. It should never happen unless teams are stacked. Skulks have speed and will ALWAYS meet the marines on their side of the map. Sprint will not get you to the alien side of the map before the skulk gets there. With only a couple paths to a given hive, you're gonna run into skulks and you're gonna get rolled.
Many seconds. Many PRECIOUS seconds not being used to do anything else except stand and press a button.
IP: 7 seconds
Armory: 12 seconds
Extractor: 12 seconds
Phase gate: 12 seconds
Observatory: 15 seconds
Comm chair: 15 seconds
Power node: 3 seconds to build
Power node: 15 seconds to repair
All of that time spent standing around. Doing nothing. While aliens are on the move in your direction. That time adds up VERY fast when seconds count. Especially when you have to play whack-a-moleskulk with attacks on extractors. Really?
Time for skulk to kill an extractor? 25 seconds
Time for skulk to kill a power node? 24 seconds
Time for a marine to kill a harvester with axe? 27 seconds
Oh yeah, way better.
This point definitely has merit ironhorse, but tech explosions are only one part of the problem. What about the economic discrepancy as a result of alien lifeforms not costing any significant t.res pre-req research while all marine equivalents do?
This is also what I'm getting it. If marines would be getting as heavily pressured as aliens are generally in competitive teams, it'd be GG, with aliens however, because of the p.res clock ticking on and no significant t.res having to be invested on just one lifeform, aliens can easily sit on 2 harvesters for the biggest part of a game and then still come out on top once fades and onos come out. I cringe everytime I hear a shoutcaster mention that aliens only need 2 - 3 harvesters to be doing well while marines need 4 - 5. HOW is that acceptable? It isn't and it shows how far we've come in accepting this broken economic reality as something 'normal'.
As long as there is no bigger t.res pre-req investment needed before aliens can get certain lifeforms there is no such thing as an equal economic model to be honest.
To be fair, getting rid of p.res in favour of a much more simple, solid and balanced economic model, which also gives commanders more strategic power, would imo be a VERY sensible move. Yes, you lose player freedom to play what you want to some extent, but one could very well start wondering if that would be such a big deal anyway. Heck, you could even have a system where the commander converts t.res into upgrade points for players to use (keeping their freedom)...
The resource model means nothing. The game isn't about having the best resource model. You don't win when you get to 1000 resource points. The resource model lies almost entirely in the meta game, which only affects the real game through the things that the resources give you. Change those things, and you don't necessarily change the resource model, but you change its effect on the game, which is all that matters.
Arms Lab vs Shell/Veil/Spur?
Armory (requires close range but is faster and considerably cheaper) vs 3 or more Crags+Shift
Observatory vs Shade (Hint, one of them completely counters the other and can do so from anywhere on the map for a small res cost)
Phase Gate vs ..?
Look. I can pick and choose too. But I meant overall.
I think you completely misunderstood me. THE GAME SHOULDN'T BE BALANCED AROUND ASSUMING THE COMMANDER IS GETTING NO RESISTANCE FROM THE OPPOSING TEAM. WE SHOULD ASSUME BOTH TEAM HAVE COMPETENT PLAYERS AND ARE PUTTING UP RESISTANCE.
Wrote it in caps so it's easier for you to read.
You seem to have confused resource model with economic model. This isn't just about how resources are collected and spent, it's about how both teams use 2 resource pools (t.res and p.res) which while seemingly being 'identical' across the factions are in actuality vastly different. Alien p.res use requires no prior t.res investment, when you hit 75 pres you go onos, this is not the case with marines, who require t.res investments for everything they can purchase. Not only does the marine t.res economy thus have to be put to work on expanding marine map control and improving marine performance (like with alien t.res) it also has to enable marines to use their p.res.
If you would look at it in economic terms, this means that the marine t.res is of a higher value (more and qualitatively higher demand) than the alien one, both teams gather at the same rates but one team (the alien side) has a lot less things it needs to spend t.res on, and significantly less CRUCIAL things. Aliens can very well hold on with just a few harvesters, as long as they get a second hive and 2 upgrades they are easily set to stay into the game until marines reach a crucial tech point, provided they reach that point before higher alien lifeforms are available p.res wise. So the alien T.res economy can suffer much harder than the marine one, it's much more resilient because it has less crucial things to be spent on, and as a result aliens have a much easier time staying in a game.
Surely that's not too hard to grasp?
If a marine was able to walk - uncontested - all the way from spawn to the alien hive, aliens have FAILED in the most basic task of the game. No marine should ever make it past the halfway point of the map in the early game, not unless aliens are being massively outplayed. All routes to the alien side should (and usually are) covered by fast moving skulks. The early game engagements should (and almost always are) on the marine side of the map.
I'd like to see what happens if the alien team would actually need a gorge to grow structures (that are placed by the comm) instead of letting structures grow by themselves.
Yes, I think that's like the Alien pres should work. One of the devs said somewhere that they wanted to give the commanders on both sides the ability to choose between spending resources on tech or "army", just like in standard RTS games. Currently, Kham egg spawning is supposed to implement the "invest in army" option.
However, this could be done differently. Remove the automatic Alien pres generation from Harvesters. Give the Kham an "Nutrient Injection" ability.
Nutrient Injection:
- Khammander ability
- always available
- costs tres
- gives a small amount of pres to every player on the team
This would also give the Kham more strategical options. For example, he could decide to skip all tech and pump the team's pres for a Lerk rush. The Kham would have greater control over the team's composition by having the option to steadily increase everyone's pres or spawn some eggs instead for selected players.
This is why I see marines win more, or at least do better on high player count servers. You can have more builders available in your base(s) without significantly reducing your offensive power.