Why don't you guys actually play the game and find out if it's a problem instead of theorycrafting?
so you require a video to show the actual problem with a marine baiting and the other one camping by? or a video that one has actually played the game?
I'm assuming that with the increases pellet count it will now me more unlikely that the entire shot will connect with a target, unless the marine gets an especially could shot, in which case they should be rewarded. I also think that now, with the spread equally spread out, you should see less fluke half hits that actually do in excess of 80% of the total shots damage.
Why don't you guys actually play the game and find out if it's a problem instead of theorycrafting?
so you require a video to show the actual problem with a marine baiting and the other one camping by? or a video that one has actually played the game?
It's been established that a shotgun can theoretically two-shot a Cara Fade now. You've yet to prove that it's a problem.
Mhhh, while I didn't feel the shotgun needed any tweaking and the buff seems a bit steep, I have to admit that Fade also felt a bit OP. I'm not a very good Fade, having only recently started to play it as my prime lifeform. Yet in most matches I was able to stay Fade throughout the game, without dying once and ending with a K/D around 30/4, killing many Shotgun/FT/GL-marines along the way.
Still, there could have been a better way to balance the Fade; Carapace now really is the one and only choice for Fades and moreso Lerks (and I really liked my hit and run regen Lerk!)
New SG is completely fucking OP, don't get me wrong I hated that random quadrant spread of old shotgun but this new one just does way too much damage and its spread pattern means you might as well replace the cursor with a massive diamond because that's what you'll hit inside of it.
I've been 2 shotted once in only 5 games played already as fade and I don't even want to know what this thing does in the hands of better marines that I know play in Aus. The whole timing discussion is bullshit especially once jetpacks are out and grant marines insane mobility, fades need to be in melee range to hit a SG JP, they need to hit them 4-7 times, SG only has to hit twice, who the fuck is in charge of balancing this stuff seriously.
Don't even start me on nano shield + JP SG as it is, might as well introduce jetpacks for duals exos with a shift step thrust ability or allow arcs to fire while moving and use phase gates. I wouldn't even advise going into rooms with 2+ shotguns anymore, before you could at least wait for a nice SS line and hit people mid step and step out of the room while crouching/jumping/blinking, now you might as well lube up and pray to the rego gods because if those shotguns get lucky twice it'll be over hard and fast.
Did someone just keep upping the numbers until cheats 1 spawn fade spawn shotgun blam blam dead fade yep these numbers are great, go live on this shit I can't see how 2 shotting cara fades could be a problem for a 20 res gun normally out by 5 mins, oh but wait we fixed the spread so no more random close enough to kiss a fade 60 damage shots anymore, it'll be straight 150+ from here on in, and the new pellet ratios is basically a free weapons upgrade from last patch while you have a shotgun.
Two shots of W2 leaves fades on what, 1 HP 1 armour, 2 HP, how high do you have to be to get a play tester role? I'll start smoking now and come up with some great numbers on other things.
tl;dr: A straight 17 dmg buff on shotgun while eliminating the random spread, but the nerf is at close range 100% of the shots hit thanks to no random spread for more damage, hold me.
Mhhh, while I didn't feel the shotgun needed any tweaking and the buff seems a bit steep, I have to admit that Fade also felt a bit OP. I'm not a very good Fade, having only recently started to play it as my prime lifeform. Yet in most matches I was able to stay Fade throughout the game, without dying once and ending with a K/D around 30/4, killing many Shotgun/FT/GL-marines along the way.
Still, there could have been a better way to balance the Fade; Carapace now really is the one and only choice for Fades and moreso Lerks (and I really liked my hit and run regen Lerk!)
I used to get insane K/D ratios as a Fade as well. It is my primary choice because it fits my playstyle perfectly. I value speed and agility very much. It is a blast to play.
I feel that there are primary two reasons why I get such a high K/D as a Fade a lot in games. The first reason is unskilled marines. Either they lack the coordination to all focus on me or they lack the accuracy to hit me or both. It's tough to hit a squad of accurate marines. It's brutal to hit a squad of accurate, coordinated marines. The second reason is my tactics. I never ruthlessly charge into an enemy. I try to get the drop on them the best I can and I stay cautious of my environment. One teammate even called my tactics dirty (as in evil backstabbing) once.
Considering the Fade is a 50 res lifeform, I think it's fair. A talented marine with a shotgun and jetpack (30 res total) can be quite a match for a Fade. This is especially true with the latest shotgun buff.
how high do you have to be to get a play tester role? I'll start smoking now and come up with some great numbers on other things.
While there are some differences, the shotgun changes were publicly available in the balance mod for testing for the past few weeks.
You could have left feedback on it on the workshop page or in these forums.
Playtesters don't come up with balance numbers typically.
Your posts have a greater impact and people would skip less/absorb more, if you didn't come off so irate. Juss sayin'
Oh and, you don't have to be high to be a playtester.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
edited January 2013
but the spread is still damn high, now stop your fricking bickering and play the game and you MIGHT just see that the shotgun can't twohit fades unless your fading skills are as good as a fish. the spread is far too big for more than half of the pellets to hit the fade ;/
Actually for me it seems i do less dmg with shotgun now because the pellets spread alot more.
So very close up i deal little more dmg but less dmg if its not melee (like 3m) range.
New shotgun is fine. With wider spread, you'd have to be right on a Fade's butt to "two shot" him. The shotgun appears less potent at longer distances from what I've seen today.
Because 442 damage wasn't basically a two shot before.
Get real.
Because it's not.
It still requires one more shot.
Therefore, not a two shot.
3 =! 2
You are, normally, never alone as a marine, and only one bullet of any other gun need to hit the fade with your 2 SG shots. And in a real game, the fade can also be slightly damaged before entering a combat.
This is what MisterNubs was saying with "Get real", and he is right.
2 shots to kill a fade seems a bit excessive, and 1 shot to kill a lerk also seems unreasonable.
If the shotgun is being made more reliable, especially with the addition of the central pellet so it's actually possible to aim the thing, it's going to be a lot easier to whittle down any alien with a couple of shotgunners before they even get into proper shotgun range, and also do an extra 20 or so damage to a fleeing alien. That's 30 or 40 damage I'd guess to most things from long range shooting which just wasn't reliably doable before.
I like the new shotgun. Fades thought as themselves as superior predators for too long now anyways. Before I didn't had the slightest chance even with two Bro's around.
I like the new shotgun. Fades thought as themselves as superior predators for too long now anyways. Before I didn't had the slightest chance even with two Bro's around.
They are superior predators though, that's their class role. They're supposed to be able to pick off marines, because they certainly can't do anything else. They're not great vs buildings, they have a fairly limited movement option comapred to lerks and skulks, and they don't really have any support abilities besides vortex which is a bit of a rare thing to get.
They do one thing, which is kill people quite well. If you make the primary weapon for their target incredibly effective against them, that's not really a great thing. Fades are supposed to be a danger for you as a shotgun marine, because skulks and lerks certainly aren't much of one.
I like the new shotgun. Fades thought as themselves as superior predators for too long now anyways. Before I didn't had the slightest chance even with two Bro's around.
They are superior predators though, that's their class role. They're supposed to be able to pick off marines, because they certainly can't do anything else. They're not great vs buildings, they have a fairly limited movement option comapred to lerks and skulks, and they don't really have any support abilities besides vortex which is a bit of a rare thing to get.
They do one thing, which is kill people quite well. If you make the primary weapon for their target incredibly effective against them, that's not really a great thing. Fades are supposed to be a danger for you as a shotgun marine, because skulks and lerks certainly aren't much of one.
I suppose I don't generally see fades dying to two point blank shotgun blasts, so the overall damage of a fade in a room full of marines will perhaps not change too drastically.
But still, I don't think fades really need to be killable in two shots from the most basic weapon upgrade. I don't even know if a fade could kill a marine in that amount of time.
I like the new shotgun as well, even if I think it makes a bit too much damage now. Taking Fades down is ridiculously easy now if you know how to aim.
well, based on the numbers the intent is that it would be easier. but maybe not ridiculously easy.
uwe has all sorts of entity kill stats including the various upgrades & the distance between entities. perhaps they should capture entity health & damage done on death as well to help tweak some of the ranged based damage #s. should tweak so literal 2 shots are not impossible but rare. but yea, fades should go down more often because more lead is flying. on damage -> need to get out of dodge.
After playing today I have come to the conclusion that shotguns need to be knocked back down to the damage before or even lower than before. Other people and myself are getting much more consistent hits with the new spread. Before taking down a Fade was a challenge, especially if they were good. Now it's a walk in the park. It's stupidly easy for anyone with the slightest amount of accuracy to take down a Fade or at least take a significant chunk of health out of them. When I come across a shotgunner I end up running in the other direction. Taking them on would almost be suicide. It's ridiculous how a 20 res weapon is just as strong if not stronger than a 50 res lifeform.
Taking the fear out of Fades on the Marine side and taking the superior hunter aspect out of Fades on the Alien side ruins the fun. If any server owner feels the same way I'll take the time to research and write a plugin that drops the shotgun down to a reasonable level.
I read this post before playing. I thought it would be bad, but it's not. It looks like there's two meter max distance for max damage.
Good shots will still kill everything; they know when to use the SG and when to use the pistol. Bad shots don't really gain must from using the new SG; they still miss and pay for it.
Fades are easier to kill, but Lerks are a bit harder.
So far, I like the change.
Also, players could 2 SG, then pistol the Fade as it attempts to escape before the patches.
Nothing new, though I'm quite content with this remaining the way it is until hit reg and performance is increased further because as it stands pub marines have more than enough trouble countering good fades. Ideally there'd be a way to make bad fades better without affecting the good ones, because right now there is a huge skill and viability discrepancy between new/poor players trying fades and good ones.
I really like the new shotgun. It felt pretty balanced last night on b238 from both sides when I was playing.
The fade still has massive maneuverability and outright speed (thanks to shadowstep/jump/blink etc), so in good hands that 50res lifeform is just as potent as it was before (based only on last night's gaming experience compared with the previous patches).
Yes, the shotgun is a 20 res unit, but it can only 2 shot a carapace fade if upgraded to w3, which costs what, 20 + 15 + 25 + 35 res on top of the shotgun investment. Of course, that res is shared amongst all guns in the game, but it's difficult to get w3 + shotguns out super early without crippling your team's resource flow in other areas, unless you're already roflstomping the aliens, in which case it's not the 2-shotting of fades you want to worry about. That horse has already bolted!
Fades go down too easy, heck even I Was killing them. Landing 2 shots on a fade is not hard and I am by no stretch of the imagination a good marine.
Roo, the way I see it...the only lifeform that can survive a turtle break is the Onos, everything else will risk being 1 or 2 shotted in the case of hte fade.
As you can hit a blinking fade it is not too hard to land two blows.
IMO, the problem is that there,s this "bump" between wep2 and 3 that makes the shotgun way more powerful than the transition between wep 0-1-2. bfore the change, there wasnt any bumps like that, every upg allowed you to kill fades in 3 shots but you could miss more pellets the more upg you had so it was a smoother transition between upgs. Same goes for lerk without carapace who can now die in 1 shot,
Comments
It's been established that a shotgun can theoretically two-shot a Cara Fade now. You've yet to prove that it's a problem.
Theoretically there is more than one starting strat for marines.
Still, there could have been a better way to balance the Fade; Carapace now really is the one and only choice for Fades and moreso Lerks (and I really liked my hit and run regen Lerk!)
I've been 2 shotted once in only 5 games played already as fade and I don't even want to know what this thing does in the hands of better marines that I know play in Aus. The whole timing discussion is bullshit especially once jetpacks are out and grant marines insane mobility, fades need to be in melee range to hit a SG JP, they need to hit them 4-7 times, SG only has to hit twice, who the fuck is in charge of balancing this stuff seriously.
Don't even start me on nano shield + JP SG as it is, might as well introduce jetpacks for duals exos with a shift step thrust ability or allow arcs to fire while moving and use phase gates. I wouldn't even advise going into rooms with 2+ shotguns anymore, before you could at least wait for a nice SS line and hit people mid step and step out of the room while crouching/jumping/blinking, now you might as well lube up and pray to the rego gods because if those shotguns get lucky twice it'll be over hard and fast.
Did someone just keep upping the numbers until cheats 1 spawn fade spawn shotgun blam blam dead fade yep these numbers are great, go live on this shit I can't see how 2 shotting cara fades could be a problem for a 20 res gun normally out by 5 mins, oh but wait we fixed the spread so no more random close enough to kiss a fade 60 damage shots anymore, it'll be straight 150+ from here on in, and the new pellet ratios is basically a free weapons upgrade from last patch while you have a shotgun.
Two shots of W2 leaves fades on what, 1 HP 1 armour, 2 HP, how high do you have to be to get a play tester role? I'll start smoking now and come up with some great numbers on other things.
tl;dr: A straight 17 dmg buff on shotgun while eliminating the random spread, but the nerf is at close range 100% of the shots hit thanks to no random spread for more damage, hold me.
I used to get insane K/D ratios as a Fade as well. It is my primary choice because it fits my playstyle perfectly. I value speed and agility very much. It is a blast to play.
I feel that there are primary two reasons why I get such a high K/D as a Fade a lot in games. The first reason is unskilled marines. Either they lack the coordination to all focus on me or they lack the accuracy to hit me or both. It's tough to hit a squad of accurate marines. It's brutal to hit a squad of accurate, coordinated marines. The second reason is my tactics. I never ruthlessly charge into an enemy. I try to get the drop on them the best I can and I stay cautious of my environment. One teammate even called my tactics dirty (as in evil backstabbing) once.
Considering the Fade is a 50 res lifeform, I think it's fair. A talented marine with a shotgun and jetpack (30 res total) can be quite a match for a Fade. This is especially true with the latest shotgun buff.
You could have left feedback on it on the workshop page or in these forums.
Playtesters don't come up with balance numbers typically.
Your posts have a greater impact and people would skip less/absorb more, if you didn't come off so irate. Juss sayin'
Oh and, you don't have to be high to be a playtester.
Good news for people outside of WA/CO
So very close up i deal little more dmg but less dmg if its not melee (like 3m) range.
This is what MisterNubs was saying with "Get real", and he is right.
If the shotgun is being made more reliable, especially with the addition of the central pellet so it's actually possible to aim the thing, it's going to be a lot easier to whittle down any alien with a couple of shotgunners before they even get into proper shotgun range, and also do an extra 20 or so damage to a fleeing alien. That's 30 or 40 damage I'd guess to most things from long range shooting which just wasn't reliably doable before.
I don't think it needs an overall damage buff.
They are superior predators though, that's their class role. They're supposed to be able to pick off marines, because they certainly can't do anything else. They're not great vs buildings, they have a fairly limited movement option comapred to lerks and skulks, and they don't really have any support abilities besides vortex which is a bit of a rare thing to get.
They do one thing, which is kill people quite well. If you make the primary weapon for their target incredibly effective against them, that's not really a great thing. Fades are supposed to be a danger for you as a shotgun marine, because skulks and lerks certainly aren't much of one.
Still are
But still, I don't think fades really need to be killable in two shots from the most basic weapon upgrade. I don't even know if a fade could kill a marine in that amount of time.
well, based on the numbers the intent is that it would be easier. but maybe not ridiculously easy.
uwe has all sorts of entity kill stats including the various upgrades & the distance between entities. perhaps they should capture entity health & damage done on death as well to help tweak some of the ranged based damage #s. should tweak so literal 2 shots are not impossible but rare. but yea, fades should go down more often because more lead is flying. on damage -> need to get out of dodge.
Taking the fear out of Fades on the Marine side and taking the superior hunter aspect out of Fades on the Alien side ruins the fun. If any server owner feels the same way I'll take the time to research and write a plugin that drops the shotgun down to a reasonable level.
Good shots will still kill everything; they know when to use the SG and when to use the pistol. Bad shots don't really gain must from using the new SG; they still miss and pay for it.
Fades are easier to kill, but Lerks are a bit harder.
So far, I like the change.
Also, players could 2 SG, then pistol the Fade as it attempts to escape before the patches.
The fade still has massive maneuverability and outright speed (thanks to shadowstep/jump/blink etc), so in good hands that 50res lifeform is just as potent as it was before (based only on last night's gaming experience compared with the previous patches).
Yes, the shotgun is a 20 res unit, but it can only 2 shot a carapace fade if upgraded to w3, which costs what, 20 + 15 + 25 + 35 res on top of the shotgun investment. Of course, that res is shared amongst all guns in the game, but it's difficult to get w3 + shotguns out super early without crippling your team's resource flow in other areas, unless you're already roflstomping the aliens, in which case it's not the 2-shotting of fades you want to worry about. That horse has already bolted!
Roo, the way I see it...the only lifeform that can survive a turtle break is the Onos, everything else will risk being 1 or 2 shotted in the case of hte fade.
As you can hit a blinking fade it is not too hard to land two blows.