<!--quoteo(post=2067052:date=Jan 26 2013, 11:23 AM:name=CommunistWithAGun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Jan 26 2013, 11:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067052"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is. It's called not allowing the marines to kill you to the point you lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think he knows that, and i think that's his point.
<!--quoteo(post=2066809:date=Jan 25 2013, 08:20 PM:name=Frothybeverage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frothybeverage @ Jan 25 2013, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Add in telefragging.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As in it will instagib an 75 res onos? I don't like the sound of that. Perhaps make it 200-300 light damage so it will kill harassing skulks, and maybe foolhardy lerks without screwing over higher lifeforms.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited January 2013
<!--quoteo(post=2067108:date=Jan 26 2013, 11:49 AM:name=amoral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (amoral @ Jan 26 2013, 11:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think he knows that, and i think that's his point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too bad his point doesn't apply to this scenario, though?
I've seen this argument before a dozen times over the past year and a half, and put simply: <i>The opposite has already been proven true for some time now</i> - being able to at the very least contest your territory that you gained is something both teams should be allowed to employ. Expecting X number of crucial players to stand in one place guarding this mechanism, vulnerable and taking away from the frontlines, is not practical, fun, or balanced.
And as far as the "aliens don't have spawn protection" , yes they do, its called not knowing which egg is about to hatch. This made tons more impact when there were more eggs.. i.e. current egglocking is an issue, and one that is not justification for removing any protection from marines.
Ahhhh yes bile bombing in the marine base then someone comes thru the pg and knocks me to the ip when another player being spawned, that flings me across the room and getting stuck in a wall.
I agree, 1 second invul should be enough. The main problem is, that players with average hardware take up to .75 seconds before the room they are phasing in is even rendered. So they stand their and die before they even see the new room. 1second invul without being able to shoot should be more than enough.
<!--quoteo(post=2066890:date=Jan 25 2013, 09:42 PM:name=AshTrai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AshTrai @ Jan 25 2013, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What game are u playing? The point is that the second u are ported to the pg under attack u are immediately killed. As said by ironhorse, it can be locked down by a single fade In addition, a few skulks munching on a pg will instantly land 1 hit on any marine the instant he teleports and insta-kill him. Since only 1 marine can phase through at one time, it's just a conveyer belt of free kills. This, i would assume, was the reason that the pushback was put in to begin with. It is a backwards step that it was removed but i can imagine that it could lead to exploitation/glitching, which is why it got pulled i guess.
I look forward to seeing what else UWE come up with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are only killed the second you phase through if there are at least 3 aliens (more with armor upgrades) camping the exit. If that's the case you SHOULD die, how the hell else are aliens even supposed to deal with PGs anyway?
If there's just 1 alien, you WILL NOT die before you are through. Doesn't matter if it's a skulk or a fade or even an Onos, he will only get 1 hit if you are as fast as you should be, 2 if you are slow as molasses. After that, like he said draw the fade away from the gate for a half a second so another player can phase through unharmed. Of course a fade takes more than one marine to kill anyway so it will take more than one phasing through behind you.
There is a bit of a problem with bad PG positioning. A lot of Coms like to put PGs in a corner or a wall or some such. While it does make sense to try to keep the gate somewhat hidden and especially out of easy bile bomb LoS, it should be as open as possible to allow marines to maneuver as quickly and effectively as possible as they get through. If you are stuck in a small alcove odds are you aren't going to be able to escape the second or even third slash no matter how much you try to move.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2066948:date=Jan 26 2013, 02:51 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 26 2013, 02:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys should really ask yourselves why it wasnt a problem in NS1.. And tbh while its annoying to get the free swipe on me, the pushback was far more frustrating as an alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS1 IP's had telefragging iirc, which is somewhat addressing a similar issue. With regards to PGs, its mostly a performance issue where in NS2, going through a PG gives something like additional 500ms or so lag spike. Its not difficult for skulks/fades to get a bite/swipe or two in before the marine's computer catches up.
seems pretty broken to me when two skulks can nullify phase gates entirely<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> happens when you block off both sides so the only way out is forwards and backwards
NS1 ips did not have telefragging, it was fixed at the same time with phasegates.
Two skulks cannot nullify a phasegate unless the marines are slow and/or get no meds - Knockback made keeping your PGs up far to easy. And saying the knockback adds skill is like saying random crits are skillful.
The only change needed here is that phasegates deactivate on recycle so that you can instantly phase to other gates should one getting grinded get recycled.
<!--quoteo(post=2067182:date=Jan 26 2013, 04:19 PM:name=Volcano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Volcano @ Jan 26 2013, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067182"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->happens when you block off both sides so the only way out is forwards and backwards<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> right, but what's your point? it's not like two skulks are going to <i>not</i> do that when they have the chance - nor is it particularly skill-dependent, fun, or exciting. not saying that knockback <i>is</i> skill dependent, it just seems to be the better option from the two.
<!--quoteo(post=2067183:date=Jan 26 2013, 04:31 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 26 2013, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Knockback made keeping your PGs up far to easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the former knockback was massive and would send Skulks flying across rooms, though. it's not exactly the best judge for deciding if it should be re-implemented, unless you are referring to a previous version of it.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=2067183:date=Jan 26 2013, 04:31 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 26 2013, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 ips did not have telefragging, it was fixed at the same time with phasegates.
Two skulks cannot nullify a phasegate unless the marines are slow and/or get no meds - Knockback made keeping your PGs up far to easy. And saying the knockback adds skill is like saying random crits are skillful.
The only change needed here is that phasegates deactivate on recycle so that you can instantly phase to other gates should one getting grinded get recycled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its like you aren't reading what others are posting? The issue is hardware variance /performance and something that skill cannot overcome?? You could have the best shooters piling through that PG with the best comm spamming medpacks and because of the performance issue those shooters will still end up with a situation like gliss' video.
This isn't a "L2P" case, its a non functioning mechanic. THAT'S why NS1 PGs didnt have this issue. That and the size/shape/freedom of the pg model. Knockback wont be implemented again, but something else needs to, that's for sure. Something that allows both sides to equally contest the situation, since flying skulks wasn't fair, and neither is the meatgrinder.
Referring to previous versions and my own tests, all which had issues. Its a bad mechanic which has no real requirement, there are other fixes that could be implemented to fix phasegate delays IMO.
If your telling me that 2 skulks can kill 5 marines phasing through in 2.5 seconds that are getting medpacks... then I really start to wonder what kind of marines were talking about. MAYBE if enzyme cloud is used, even then you would struggle to kill them fast enough.
In that video the marines phased through and just jumping and looked around, if any of them had shot the skulk they would have died. Its not that hard to target a non moving skulk even with the pg delays - You may not get in enough shots alone but add meds and more marines...
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
You were able to get 5 marines through in 2.5 seconds? How ? There's a one second delay after a teammate uses it before you can use it again?
Also, as far as speeding up that rendering time, we found two effects that weren't precached and could take up to a reported time of 200 ms each. It's been fixed for future patches already. Doesn't solve the problem, but will help.
Obviously they were jumping when they couldn't move forward, rather than a decision to bunny hop on the spot when coming through... That video shows it's a real issue, and potentially up for abuse in competitive matches... Even if your right and the marines 'could' shoot the skulks, it's going to take a lot of marines to kill one of them...longer than it'd take alien reinforcements or a gorge to arrive.
Initially i didn't think there was any issues with PG's (based on personal experience)... That video changes my opinion entirely though knock back is still not the answer...neither is a split second of invincibility or nano-shield if you simply can't move. I would suggest spawning slightly further from the PG if it's obstructed but that'd be a problem for aliens and remove the humorous clog walls blocking up PG's (though we don't see that nearly enough).
seems pretty broken to me when two skulks can nullify phase gates entirely<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm looking at that video and trying to figure out how they managed to position themselves to do that. I've never seen it happen quite like that, though certainly not for lack of trying. Usually the marines will spawn behind the skulk when they are locked in that tightly, or else they will have more then enough room to run through.
I'd like to point out for those crying about performance that nearly all those marines in the video had enough time to at least jump after coming through the phase, meaning that they did not die before their computers caught up even though they were dying almost instantly.
Of course, with 3 players on the phase and no marines already in the room (even though one of the three was a gorge) I still don't think the marines should be able to use that phase to defend. The marines job is to keep the aliens from having the chance to settle on the phase like that in numbers to start with. Failing that they ether run or beacon and lose the phase either way.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited January 2013
Hmm.. i've only ever timed it from 1st person, which in retrospect may be flawed given the render delay. I've always hated that delay, since day one.
@sotanaht: Knockback was working fine for some time now (short of the functionally unrelated exploit) - being able to at the very least contest your territory that you gained is something both teams should be allowed to employ. Expecting X number of crucial players from the slower team to stand in one place guarding this mechanism, vulnerable and taking away from the frontlines, is not practical, fun, or balanced.
Out of the posted solutions I'm more partial to the spawning outside of the gate itself if the entrance is blocked. This seems like it would be the most fair.
<!--quoteo(post=2067192:date=Jan 26 2013, 05:49 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 26 2013, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Referring to previous versions and my own tests, all which had issues. Its a bad mechanic which has no real requirement, there are other fixes that could be implemented to fix phasegate delays IMO.
If your telling me that 2 skulks can kill 5 marines phasing through in 2.5 seconds that are getting medpacks... then I really start to wonder what kind of marines were talking about. MAYBE if enzyme cloud is used, even then you would struggle to kill them fast enough.
In that video the marines phased through and just jumping and looked around, if any of them had shot the skulk they would have died. Its not that hard to target a non moving skulk even with the pg delays - You may not get in enough shots alone but add meds and more marines...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That video also had a gorge healing the skulks constantly (me) and with that many marines they hardly had any time to do damage because they died almost instantly..
seems pretty broken to me when two skulks can nullify phase gates entirely<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marine mistakes in my opinion: 1) They should run and jump before teleporting, not after. 2) Nobody used a grenade launcher. 3) After teleporting you should wait for screen update but you can shoot blindly.
i always try to be semi-airborne going through a phase gate, and i don't stop pressing buttons until i'm sure i'm not dead... same when i have a jetpack, airborne.
What about having marines get an automatic lesser version of the nano shield upon coming through a phase gate? Just enough shield to get through and turn around for a few shots.
I tend to agree with Dragon on this one. I don't think phasing is as bad as people are making out and I think introducing mechanics might be dangerous when coupled with performance improvements (which will help alot, if they come).
Comments
i think he knows that, and i think that's his point.
As in it will instagib an 75 res onos? I don't like the sound of that. Perhaps make it 200-300 light damage so it will kill harassing skulks, and maybe foolhardy lerks without screwing over higher lifeforms.
Too bad his point doesn't apply to this scenario, though?
I've seen this argument before a dozen times over the past year and a half, and put simply:
<i>The opposite has already been proven true for some time now</i> - being able to at the very least contest your territory that you gained is something both teams should be allowed to employ.
Expecting X number of crucial players to stand in one place guarding this mechanism, vulnerable and taking away from the frontlines, is not practical, fun, or balanced.
And as far as the "aliens don't have spawn protection" , yes they do, its called not knowing which egg is about to hatch. This made tons more impact when there were more eggs.. i.e. current egglocking is an issue, and one that is not justification for removing any protection from marines.
Make it so that when you nanoshield a phase gate, marines coming through that phase gate are automatically nano shielded.
Of course, this becomes ridiculously OP when ninja phase gating, like in Cargo. Nano the gate, send in the marines, laugh manically.
Thoughts?
In addition, a few skulks munching on a pg will instantly land 1 hit on any marine the instant he teleports and insta-kill him. Since only 1 marine can phase through at one time, it's just a conveyer belt of free kills. This, i would assume, was the reason that the pushback was put in to begin with. It is a backwards step that it was removed but i can imagine that it could lead to exploitation/glitching, which is why it got pulled i guess.
I look forward to seeing what else UWE come up with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are only killed the second you phase through if there are at least 3 aliens (more with armor upgrades) camping the exit. If that's the case you SHOULD die, how the hell else are aliens even supposed to deal with PGs anyway?
If there's just 1 alien, you WILL NOT die before you are through. Doesn't matter if it's a skulk or a fade or even an Onos, he will only get 1 hit if you are as fast as you should be, 2 if you are slow as molasses. After that, like he said draw the fade away from the gate for a half a second so another player can phase through unharmed. Of course a fade takes more than one marine to kill anyway so it will take more than one phasing through behind you.
There is a bit of a problem with bad PG positioning. A lot of Coms like to put PGs in a corner or a wall or some such. While it does make sense to try to keep the gate somewhat hidden and especially out of easy bile bomb LoS, it should be as open as possible to allow marines to maneuver as quickly and effectively as possible as they get through. If you are stuck in a small alcove odds are you aren't going to be able to escape the second or even third slash no matter how much you try to move.
seems pretty broken to me when two skulks can nullify phase gates entirely
NS1 IP's had telefragging iirc, which is somewhat addressing a similar issue. With regards to PGs, its mostly a performance issue where in NS2, going through a PG gives something like additional 500ms or so lag spike. Its not difficult for skulks/fades to get a bite/swipe or two in before the marine's computer catches up.
seems pretty broken to me when two skulks can nullify phase gates entirely<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
happens when you block off both sides so the only way out is forwards and backwards
Two skulks cannot nullify a phasegate unless the marines are slow and/or get no meds - Knockback made keeping your PGs up far to easy. And saying the knockback adds skill is like saying random crits are skillful.
The only change needed here is that phasegates deactivate on recycle so that you can instantly phase to other gates should one getting grinded get recycled.
right, but what's your point? it's not like two skulks are going to <i>not</i> do that when they have the chance - nor is it particularly skill-dependent, fun, or exciting. not saying that knockback <i>is</i> skill dependent, it just seems to be the better option from the two.
<!--quoteo(post=2067183:date=Jan 26 2013, 04:31 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 26 2013, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Knockback made keeping your PGs up far to easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the former knockback was massive and would send Skulks flying across rooms, though. it's not exactly the best judge for deciding if it should be re-implemented, unless you are referring to a previous version of it.
Two skulks cannot nullify a phasegate unless the marines are slow and/or get no meds - Knockback made keeping your PGs up far to easy. And saying the knockback adds skill is like saying random crits are skillful.
The only change needed here is that phasegates deactivate on recycle so that you can instantly phase to other gates should one getting grinded get recycled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its like you aren't reading what others are posting? The issue is hardware variance /performance and something that skill cannot overcome??
You could have the best shooters piling through that PG with the best comm spamming medpacks and because of the performance issue those shooters will still end up with a situation like gliss' video.
This isn't a "L2P" case, its a non functioning mechanic. THAT'S why NS1 PGs didnt have this issue. That and the size/shape/freedom of the pg model.
Knockback wont be implemented again, but something else needs to, that's for sure. Something that allows both sides to equally contest the situation, since flying skulks wasn't fair, and neither is the meatgrinder.
If your telling me that 2 skulks can kill 5 marines phasing through in 2.5 seconds that are getting medpacks... then I really start to wonder what kind of marines were talking about. MAYBE if enzyme cloud is used, even then you would struggle to kill them fast enough.
In that video the marines phased through and just jumping and looked around, if any of them had shot the skulk they would have died. Its not that hard to target a non moving skulk even with the pg delays - You may not get in enough shots alone but add meds and more marines...
Also, as far as speeding up that rendering time, we found two effects that weren't precached and could take up to a reported time of 200 ms each. It's been fixed for future patches already. Doesn't solve the problem, but will help.
Initially i didn't think there was any issues with PG's (based on personal experience)... That video changes my opinion entirely though knock back is still not the answer...neither is a split second of invincibility or nano-shield if you simply can't move. I would suggest spawning slightly further from the PG if it's obstructed but that'd be a problem for aliens and remove the humorous clog walls blocking up PG's (though we don't see that nearly enough).
Looking forward to seeing how UWE solves it :)
PS: Just for the record, I'm sure my like number 14 post back in 09 was about phase gates not having 360 degree exits like in NS1.
- Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I suppose the next point to raise would be that NS2c doesnt have nearly the phase delay that NS2 has...
seems pretty broken to me when two skulks can nullify phase gates entirely<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm looking at that video and trying to figure out how they managed to position themselves to do that. I've never seen it happen quite like that, though certainly not for lack of trying. Usually the marines will spawn behind the skulk when they are locked in that tightly, or else they will have more then enough room to run through.
I'd like to point out for those crying about performance that nearly all those marines in the video had enough time to at least jump after coming through the phase, meaning that they did not die before their computers caught up even though they were dying almost instantly.
Of course, with 3 players on the phase and no marines already in the room (even though one of the three was a gorge) I still don't think the marines should be able to use that phase to defend. The marines job is to keep the aliens from having the chance to settle on the phase like that in numbers to start with. Failing that they ether run or beacon and lose the phase either way.
I've always hated that delay, since day one.
@sotanaht:
Knockback was working fine for some time now (short of the functionally unrelated exploit) - being able to at the very least contest your territory that you gained is something both teams should be allowed to employ.
Expecting X number of crucial players from the slower team to stand in one place guarding this mechanism, vulnerable and taking away from the frontlines, is not practical, fun, or balanced.
@eh:
engaging contribution, as always.
*snip* do <b>NOT</b> edit a snip by a moderator. And calling someone a name in that edit, the hell is this...
Out of the posted solutions I'm more partial to the spawning outside of the gate itself if the entrance is blocked. This seems like it would be the most fair.
- Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
If your telling me that 2 skulks can kill 5 marines phasing through in 2.5 seconds that are getting medpacks... then I really start to wonder what kind of marines were talking about. MAYBE if enzyme cloud is used, even then you would struggle to kill them fast enough.
In that video the marines phased through and just jumping and looked around, if any of them had shot the skulk they would have died. Its not that hard to target a non moving skulk even with the pg delays - You may not get in enough shots alone but add meds and more marines...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That video also had a gorge healing the skulks constantly (me) and with that many marines they hardly had any time to do damage because they died almost instantly..
seems pretty broken to me when two skulks can nullify phase gates entirely<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine mistakes in my opinion:
1) They should run and jump before teleporting, not after.
2) Nobody used a grenade launcher.
3) After teleporting you should wait for screen update but you can shoot blindly.
I suppose phasing with a mine pack and immediately placing them might do ok although you'll only get one or two down in the few seconds of your life.
Kind of a waste really, too bad you can't just buy one mine for 5 P.Res.