Ellen RipleyJoin Date: 2012-11-06Member: 167803Members
<!--quoteo(post=2045330:date=Dec 13 2012, 11:09 PM:name=Soulfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soulfighter @ Dec 13 2012, 11:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->totally not relevant to the conversation we're having here :<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say it's completely relevant to the perception of camo as OP. Also, you ignored my entire last paragraph.
And your "counters"... checking rooms with your LMG. Really? You think using all your ammo spraying the walls, ceilings, floors, and every little nook and cranny of a room looking for skulks while announcing your presence to the entire map is a suitable counter. I have to wonder how many of you defending camo actually play marine in pubs.
Camo could be balanced in a number of ways. Motion trackers, distance based shimmer, energy drain... It's not simply a matter of "Well I want 100% invisibility!" vs. "Well I want 90% transparency!". I'm also of the opinion that it should be an active ability rather than a passive one.
<!--quoteo(post=2045679:date=Dec 14 2012, 11:43 AM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Dec 14 2012, 11:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are u just hearing this song? <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFd5Cci_pE4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFd5Cci_pE4</a>
Or are u trying to give any useful feedback :>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you call useful feedback completely negating the use of camo? all because solo marines stupidly get ambushed again and again instead of using idk... TACTICS, doesnt make an upgrade "OP" or "broken" and it doesnt need to be "FIXED"
this trend is the main problem with the dev cycle for this game. breaking game elements because a handful of people stupidly scream and cry for fixes for "OP" things constantly causes the game to fine one patch, completely one sided the next. to the point where its unplayable (like it is now imo).
<!--quoteo(post=2045683:date=Dec 14 2012, 09:58 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Dec 14 2012, 09:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you call useful feedback completely negating the use of camo? all because solo marines stupidly get ambushed again and again instead of using idk... TACTICS, doesnt make an upgrade "OP" or "broken" and it doesnt need to be "FIXED"
this trend is the main problem with the dev cycle for this game. breaking game elements because a handful of people stupidly scream and cry for fixes for "OP" things constantly causes the game to fine one patch, completely one sided the next. to the point where its unplayable (like it is now imo).
theres your feedback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Angry boy :> . I dont call it OP. I would be glad if they keep it like it is. No one was screaming about camo in NS1 . In fact it was very underrated.
But I think that devs <u>will</u> change camo or anything to counter camo in a way I am disliking. To change camo in the way I said could be fine by me because its still 100 % invisibility and u can still come very close to your victim. Those uncloack-range have to be tested.
<!--quoteo(post=2045690:date=Dec 14 2012, 12:15 PM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Dec 14 2012, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Angry boy :> .I dont call it OP. I would be glad if they keep it like it is. No one was screaming about camo in NS1 . In fact it was very underrated.
But I think that devs will change camo or anything to counter camo in a way I am disliking. To change camo in the way I said could be fine by me because its still 100 % invisibility and u can still come very close to your victim. Those uncloack-range have to be tested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
angry? howso
im not the one crying for nerfs. annoyed at stupid posts? sure.
why and how would marines need this radius of anti cloak? if marines need to unloack an area then they need to scan or drop an obs. alien coms need to drop cysts+shade to cloak an area, why do marines get a free counter to this?
im not the one crying for nerfs. annoyed at stupid posts? sure.
why and how would marines need this radius of anti cloak? if marines need to unloack an area then they need to scan or drop an obs. alien coms need to drop cysts+shade to cloak an area, why do marines get a free counter to this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldnt call this a "free counter" . Those uncloaking-range is already ingame. Actually the range is 0-1 :>. Its just an increase. Like increasing the time to cloak. Would u call that a "free counter" if they incresed that by 1-2 seconds?
<!--quoteo(post=2045699:date=Dec 14 2012, 12:33 PM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Dec 14 2012, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wouldnt call this a "free counter" . Those uncloaking-range is already ingame. Actually the range is 0-1 :>. Its just an increase. Like increasing the time to cloak. Would u call that a "free counter" if they incresed that by 1-2 seconds?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do agree there needs to be something. Done well you could counter it and force team play more.
Possible solutions
1) EMF visors - Marines can see cloak generating enemies and structures and basic map outlines. They however can't see enemies or structures that aren't generating a cloak also only allows them to see enemies in their field of view. This would mean natural stealth would work still, shades would work still to hide enemies as only the shade would give off the cloak indication. It would also force the Marines to work together as the EMF visor marine would be vulnerable while using it because normal non cloaked enemies become invisible now to them. So he Marines have to switch vision modes. Balancing this could be either fairly high research cost comparably or low cost but having to get Marines to buy it for welder costs.
2) Add sonic emitters onto Arcs, making them a siege vehicle with defensive passives to uncloak but not mark on the map enemies. It would make the Arc almost a support vehicle of kinds and the cost balances out how useful it is.
3) Motion trackers - forcing a Marine to put down their weapon and use the tracker to check rooms for enemies. Possible research cost and buying them each time.
All possible counter really. I suggested the EMF visor to avoid the obvious Aliens motion tracker comparisons
Why stealth needs a change
If forces Marines to adopt a strategy that any good Alien commander already has two counters for. Marines can only win by doing a certain strategy the problem being that strategy has two counters already which a truly good alien commander will be able to use. Not only using cloak but being able to make rooms unscannable or by attacking on multiple fronts as the scan frequency mean multiple front fighting for Marines is off.
The resource drain it places on Marine commanders early game too
It always amuses me as alien commander if I have a shade hive and go silence before camo and then you immediately get people who start whining and complaining. Silence gives so much more versatility as long as you don't just derp about on the floor and use the walls and ceilings.
These people will then later complain when there's observatories in every room because they just sat in a corner camouflaged and waiting to jump a marine. Fun times.
I'd prefer something that wasn't a direct counter to cloaking and still required some semblance of skill.
Scans costing 3 res is pretty expensive, even reducing it to 2 res would help balance things out. Scans = 3 Tres + commander's attention. Players cannot ask for a scan quick enough because if they stop moving to request a scan they will be attacked. Even when I know an alien is somewhere in my proximity and I am randomly firing in places, they can still avoid me because they can just move out of the way and be perfectly invisible.
I think that if an alien is cloaked by a shade they should be able to move with 100% invisibility but if they have the cloaking evolution and they are moving around they should at least be partially visible.
when did gamers decide to just say F getting better, cry to devs until gameplay is nerfed to the point of unplayability?
know whats going to happens when you nerf something? youre going to break another thing and then have to balance that. especially something thats not even broken.
<!--quoteo(post=2045875:date=Dec 14 2012, 09:53 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Dec 14 2012, 09:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->when did gamers decide to just say F getting better, cry to devs until gameplay is nerfed to the point of unplayability?
know whats going to happens when you nerf something? youre going to break another thing and then have to balance that. especially something thats not even broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> About the same time people started going QQ more I'll abuse this obvious advantage for all its worth and you can't stop me because I'm going to make sure I own every game and screw everyone else being allowed to have fun, only my fun is important.
Basically there's a limit to improvement and some things like Camo need a slight change as while Camo has a counter, the counter to Camo has two counter that can stop it while there is only the one way to significantly counter Camo. With a second method it would mix up gameplay and make it so the Alien commander had to think more and adapt more to Marines strategies rather than being able to Camo and force their tactics then if the Alien commander is good enough use this requires tactic on them.
<!--quoteo(post=2045900:date=Dec 14 2012, 04:53 PM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 14 2012, 04:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->About the same time people started going QQ more I'll abuse this obvious advantage for all its worth and you can't stop me because I'm going to make sure I own every game and screw everyone else being allowed to have fun, only my fun is important.
Basically there's a limit to improvement and some things like Camo need a slight change as while Camo has a counter, the counter to Camo has two counter that can stop it while there is only the one way to significantly counter Camo. With a second method it would mix up gameplay and make it so the Alien commander had to think more and adapt more to Marines strategies rather than being able to Camo and force their tactics then if the Alien commander is good enough use this requires tactic on them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahhahahaha! Yep, Camo is such an <i>obvious</i> advantage that it loses every game versus teams of equal skill. If you're Marines commander, and the Aliens go Camo first, you should be laughing so hard that you have trouble hitting the 'scan' button. They just handed you a win, if you pull your head out of your rear long enough to actually command instead of playing turret defense.
Literally everything the Aliens can do is significantly weakened by going Camo first or second. Either you lack movement upgrades (Thusly celerity and adrenaline) or you lack defense upgrades (carapace or regeneration). If you plan on winning, you'll need Shift and Crag versus anyone that knows anything.
One scan can and will save you from dropping three health packs. That fact alone makes it worth while. The irony is that people will build a 10 T.Res armory to save them med pack spam, then complain about building an observatory that gives map hacks and negates an entire upgrade tree on the other team.
You can literally sprint to a second hive in NS2 as Marines. If you're stopping at in-between nodes and not building in a hive right off the bat, I'd say you're already doing it wrong. Especially versus Camo.
(EDIT: Go ahead and nerf camo though. I honestly don't care. It is a moronic idea as is when commanders pull this poor excuse of a strategy. I would prefer breaking bad alien commanders of this belief that it's useful since we're talking about an upgrade that's already researched last on decent teams. I'm very serious when I say this, it makes no difference.)
<!--quoteo(post=2045863:date=Dec 14 2012, 03:40 PM:name=Zora-Link)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zora-Link @ Dec 14 2012, 03:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It always amuses me as alien commander if I have a shade hive and go silence before camo and then you immediately get people who start whining and complaining. Silence gives so much more versatility as long as you don't just derp about on the floor and use the walls and ceilings.
These people will then later complain when there's observatories in every room because they just sat in a corner camouflaged and waiting to jump a marine. Fun times.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wish there were more shade loving comms like you. I find silence to be superior to camo in every way after the first 4 minutes, and equal to it during that time.
Half the time a comm gets camo I don't even bother evolving it when I hatch. I know I'm not going to be sitting around invisible anyway on most maps, and the F key gives a lot of useful hiding spots.
<!--quoteo(post=2045381:date=Dec 14 2012, 12:40 AM:name=ktr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ktr @ Dec 14 2012, 12:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Has anyone here played the mod, <a href="http://www.hidden-source.com/" target="_blank">The Hidden: Source</a>? I would love to see similar heat wave effects come off cloaked aliens. It would make them slightly spotable when aliens move.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/Xi3S1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1 Without energy scans I think something like this would work better.
<!--quoteo(post=2045915:date=Dec 14 2012, 11:18 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 14 2012, 11:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ahhahahaha! Yep, Camo is such an <i>obvious</i> advantage that it loses every game versus teams of equal skill. If you're Marines commander, and the Aliens go Camo first, you should be laughing so hard that you have trouble hitting the 'scan' button. They just handed you a win, if you pull your head out of your rear long enough to actually command instead of playing turret defense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey if people are going to start throwing the arguments out the window and resorting to simply saying people are QQing and need to get good rather than discuss the points raised then I'll happily imply they prefer to win and own rather than have a good close game.
If the commanders are equally experienced then the Alien commander will know the only tactic Marines can use is the one described in this threat. The issue is the one counter tactic to cloak already has two counters to it. Most of the game is about choice and options as you can counter things in multiple ways and adapt strategies. Against an enemy commander who knows how to and a team who get the plan cloak forces the Marines into a a single tactic to win which can at present be countered by an experienced enough commander. No choice. No having to adapt. Its the only real counter tactic so the Alien commander knows what's coming if the Marines are good, and if they aren't it doesn't matter.
<!--quoteo(post=2045915:date=Dec 14 2012, 11:18 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 14 2012, 11:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Literally everything the Aliens can do is significantly weakened by going Camo first or second. Either you lack movement upgrades (Thusly celerity and adrenaline) or you lack defense upgrades (carapace or regeneration). If you plan on winning, you'll need Shift and Crag versus anyone that knows anything.
One scan can and will save you from dropping three health packs. That fact alone makes it worth while. The irony is that people will build a 10 T.Res armory to save them med pack spam, then complain about building an observatory that gives map hacks and negates an entire upgrade tree on the other team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> One ink release can cost the enemy a full team of Marines because of the fact it screwed over their scan. That's right for the same Res cost as the "Camo counter" Aliens can have a counter to that counter. Trust me more Alien Commanders will start using this, there are some already able to use this very well but as yet most Alien Commanders forget that those plants have extra abilities like that.
So no obs doesn't negate the entire upgrade tree if an Alien commander is being fed enough info by his team to prepare and know the enemies locations he can almost entirely shut down Obs without needing to have it destroyed.
<!--quoteo(post=2045915:date=Dec 14 2012, 11:18 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 14 2012, 11:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can literally sprint to a second hive in NS2 as Marines. If you're stopping at in-between nodes and not building in a hive right off the bat, I'd say you're already doing it wrong. Especially versus Camo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> See that's the tactic there. No real choice in it you've been forced into it and a truly good Alien commander can exploit this fact. There needs to be a choice to it.
Hence the suggestions of you can use obs or you can pay more out in one go and get an item to counter it. The key thing being it would only counter the upgrade and allow people to kill the shade, it wouldn't stop Aliens being able to use shade camo to set up ambushes it would just mean Marines have a counter they can use to extend with just as camo evolution lets Aliens extend further. At present Obs stations are the counter to Shade ambushes and shades are the counter to Obs scan based pushes. They both negate one another pretty well. Camo itself though doesn't have so much of an always on counter while it is a nearly always active ability. Also camo costs to research but to counter with Obs constantly costs and is a higher cost over time to do.
<!--quoteo(post=2045940:date=Dec 14 2012, 06:04 PM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 14 2012, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the commanders are equally experienced then the Alien commander will know the only tactic Marines can use is the one described in this threat. The issue is the one counter tactic to cloak already has two counters to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So aliens are invisible and weak in their base, and visible and weak in the Marines forward location. The entire time they're eating eggs out of the hive like candy. The Marines can win through simple attrition in your scenario. The Aliens spawn system starts to work against you fast, and if you're using shifts along with your shade you're spending a ton of T.Res now on egg's and constant ink just to hold your ground versus passive Marines. (You also assume competent commanders are using shade first outside of trolling new players, which they aren't.) This also means every higher life form on your team is paper thin, making shotguns a soft counter to your entire team.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See that's the tactic there. No real choice in it you've been forced into it and a truly good Alien commander can exploit this fact. There needs to be a choice to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You missed my point. Marines should already be doing things that counter Shade, even if the aliens <i>don't have shade</i>. That's the thing, regular Marines play should, when executed properly, negate shade even if it isn't present. It simply changes the build order in a very minor way for a little more T.Res. There should <i>be</i> no rambo wandering Marines by themselves, as with shade you have a reduced incentive to bother attacking their resource nodes. Everything they can build or upgrade to is far less effective at anything except hiding, and you can camp on two tech points to a win. Even if the other team saves up enough for Onos, they're paper Onos or slow Onos.
Shade will not stop or slow good Marines taking and holding a second tech point, and that's all they need to win versus P.Res Onos without Celerity/Carapace.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hence the suggestions of you can use obs or you can pay more out in one go and get an item to counter it...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Add as many counters as you want. I don't care because cloaking is a bad decision, and making cloaked aliens 100% <i>visible</i> would not change the order I already build things as alien commander. (While winning most games I command.) It just irks me that people make cloaking first out to be some sort of awesome, super powerful strategy when it simply isn't.
<!--quoteo(post=2045948:date=Dec 15 2012, 12:34 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 15 2012, 12:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So aliens are invisible and weak in their base, and visible and weak in the Marines forward location. The entire time they're eating eggs out of the hive like candy. The Marines can win through simple attrition in your scenario. The Aliens spawn system starts to work against you fast, and if you're using shifts along with your shade you're spending a ton of T.Res now on egg's and constant ink just to hold your ground versus passive Marines. (You also assume competent commanders are using shade first outside of trolling new players, which they aren't.) This also means every higher life form on your team is paper thin, making shotguns a soft counter to your entire team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually on the high end gameplay for the skulk it points out a sort of pack move tactic that used well can take out Marine squads at the cost of maybe 1-2 skulks. Also you can and this is important split you offensive push. This is a move so few people do and can make a huge difference. Aliens can hold down locations fairly well against groups. Remember if you're know their coming gorges can block routes pretty well and a few hidden Hydras can force Marines to back off. Also while you're holding them off with minimal troops you can have your second pack capturing all the resources in the other direction or even behind the Marine force. Essentially forcing the battle of attrition to go in your favour by having the greater resources and importantly delaying the development of the Marines siege weapons such as flame thrower . Sure they can get through a wall but its a high risk thing early on especially with two gorges keeping the wall up, the only easy breach is to cover a guy welding the clogs down
<!--quoteo(post=2045948:date=Dec 15 2012, 12:34 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 15 2012, 12:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You missed my point. Marines should already be doing things that counter Shade, even if the aliens <i>don't have shade</i>. That's the thing, regular Marines play should, when executed properly, negate shade even if it isn't present. It simply changes the build order in a very minor way for a little more T.Res. There should <i>be</i> no rambo wandering Marines by themselves, as with shade you have a reduced incentive to bother attacking their resource nodes. Everything they can build or upgrade to is far less effective at anything except hiding, and you can camp on two tech points to a win. Even if the other team saves up enough for Onos, they're paper Onos or slow Onos.
Shade will not stop or slow good Marines taking and holding a second tech point, and that's all they need to win versus P.Res Onos without Celerity/Carapace.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Played well a stealth Onos with backing can attack from 4 locations. The commander for Marines has 1 scan and a limited team size. The Onos might not be fast but played well it will be in your base without you even seeing it coming and can get out recover and attack from a different angle next time. forcing the Commander to split his units then gives camo the edge for more ambushes using it. While Obs is good to an extent a good Onos using stealth won't have a hard time due to it as they'll only be caught by it when they planned to attack anyway
<!--quoteo(post=2045948:date=Dec 15 2012, 12:34 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 15 2012, 12:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Add as many counters as you want. I don't care because cloaking is a bad decision, and making cloaked aliens 100% <i>visible</i> would not change the order I already build things as alien commander. (While winning most games I command.) It just irks me that people make cloaking first out to be some sort of awesome, super powerful strategy when it simply isn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I never said I wanted to make them 100 % visible. I said add an item that would but would then make uncloaked aliens 100% invisible to the user while the item is being used also it wouldn't effect shade camo on creatures only reveal the shade itself.
Anything done right can be a killer strategy its balancing between your plan and countering your opponents that is key. Just because a plan might not work for you doesn't mean others can't get the plan working such as central map control vs outer map control etc
I agree with the above, shade or not, scan. You want to know where they are (or are not).
Camo 1st is not a winner.
1st hive Celerity => speed to close up marines and go fast thru the map where needed
2nd hive Carapace => standing power Adrenaline => Help the bile/spores
3 Hive Now shade make your infestation a blackbox for marines. The right time to take it.
Camo is better than NS1 Sensory / cloacking and thanks the dev for that ! At least it can be used first with some hope of map control against unaware marines, or help make the decision on 3 hive.
<!--quoteo(post=2045968:date=Dec 14 2012, 07:29 PM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 14 2012, 07:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually on the high end gameplay for the skulk it points out a sort of pack move tactic that used well can take out Marine squads at the cost of maybe 1-2 skulks. Also you can and this is important split you offensive push.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is that the 'pack move' mentality works no matter what upgrades you use, and a pack of celerity skulks that move together are both fast and deadly all the time, while cloaking packs of skulks are merely deadly, and crag skulks are slow and not much more durable. Splitting your forces at the start is logical, especially in a 'random' map, but after you know where the Marines started you aren't really splitting forces any more. As the Marines, that's why it's vitally important to secure a second hive <i>first</i>, then return to res nodes outside of the hives to clear alien harvesters and infestation.
What's more important mid-game? Higher life forms that are more durable and faster, or sneaky units that can hold territory better at the expensive of speed or durability? One is capable of assault, the other builds more resources at the expensive of less effective units mid-game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Played well a stealth Onos with backing can attack from 4 locations. The commander for Marines has 1 scan and a limited team size. The Onos might not be fast but played well it will be in your base without you even seeing it coming and can get out recover and attack from a different angle next time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When talking about shade as a first or second hive, this is mostly irrelevant. Especially if you have four Onos. Getting shade as your third and final hive makes more sense late game as that's when you see Onos. Also, you will always 'see' the Onos coming with an observatory. Unless you're implying the alien commander cysted their main base and shifted a mature shade without them noticing. (In which case, I'd shift in tons of whips instead.)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never said I wanted to make them 100 % visible. I said add an item that would but would then make uncloaked aliens 100% invisible to the user while the item is being used also it wouldn't effect shade camo on creatures only reveal the shade itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know, I was illustrating a point with hyperbole. The current version of cloaking is a bad choice as first or second hive, unless you plan on going all in and try to win before a second or third hive. This is usually something that only wins versus new player Marines and more especially bad Marine commanders. Good alien commanders against good Marines teams will not use this strategy unless they expect to drastically outplay the other team all game. This is not something you can 'plan' for, rather something you hope for. In that respect I feel it's an exceptionally weak decision as it relies fully on chance or stacking teams.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anything done right can be a killer strategy its balancing between your plan and countering your opponents that is key. Just because a plan might not work for you doesn't mean others can't get the plan working such as central map control vs outer map control etc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being done right and being a killer strategy are the same thing. Countering your opponents is key, and it's too easy for Marines to counter meaningfully than it is for Aliens to use their counters meaningfully with shade hive. Yes, ink blocks scans. That's great on infestation, but it also means Marines have a vastly higher likelihood of retaining at least two tech points and three RT's while still applying pressure to the Aliens Harvesters, which will eventually win them the game all other factors even. Basically it boils down to if you think your team is good enough to hold off the first few people that can P.Res Onos, which if they lack Shift and Crag upgrades and if Marines had W3/A3 I'd say it's pretty likely. Opinion yes, but it's what I've seen happen.
TL;DR
At best Shade first or second is a high risk high reward strategy. At worst it's under performing compared to other options.
This wall of text is my last, as I said none of it really matters but I want people to know why I think it's bad in detail. It might help someone else get better.
<!--quoteo(post=2045301:date=Dec 14 2012, 12:10 AM:name=Soulfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soulfighter @ Dec 14 2012, 12:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh look, it's this thread again. Cloak is totally negated by simply moving constantly<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, it's not. I'll be happy to 'school' anyone who thinks moving around makes any difference at all. The reality is that even though you have to 'move' you have to move SOMEWHERE. So yeah you can dance around in the middle of the room all you like, I'll just snicker and eat you alive when you come to build the power node or extractor. Or perhaps when you are going to go through a door. Or at a tight corner.
Cloaking - in of itself - isn't too powerful, the real issue is that there is no viable counter. Observatories won't cover much outside of main base, and you won't be dropping them anywhere else on the map. (aside from other tech points) Scan is fine, but it eats up what little resources you have.
So yeah, cloaking is OP, and the fact that nearly every Khamm goes that way first makes that point perfectly.
We had the same in NS1, except it was the opposite. Cloaking was the weak one, and if someone went cloaking first the aliens were crying and saying GG in chat. Then the devs made it balanced so that no one chamber was better than the others.
They'll nerf this. It's a given. They will nerf anything that becomes the defacto upgrade for any side. They have to or else you lose all variety in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2045988:date=Dec 15 2012, 03:24 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 15 2012, 03:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, it's not. I'll be happy to 'school' anyone who thinks moving around makes any difference at all. The reality is that even though you have to 'move' you have to move SOMEWHERE. So yeah you can dance around in the middle of the room all you like, I'll just snicker and eat you alive when you come to build the power node or extractor. Or perhaps when you are going to go through a door. Or at a tight corner.
Cloaking - in of itself - isn't too powerful, the real issue is that there is no viable counter. Observatories won't cover much outside of main base, and you won't be dropping them anywhere else on the map. (aside from other tech points) Scan is fine, but it eats up what little resources you have.
So yeah, cloaking is OP, and the fact that nearly every Khamm goes that way first makes that point perfectly.
We had the same in NS1, except it was the opposite. Cloaking was the weak one, and if someone went cloaking first the aliens were crying and saying GG in chat. Then the devs made it balanced so that no one chamber was better than the others.
They'll nerf this. It's a given. They will nerf anything that becomes the defacto upgrade for any side. They have to or else you lose all variety in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> is today opposite day ? or are you just another playtester that doesnt play the game ?
I've mentioned this before, why not make flashlight useful? Flashlight should increase the visibility of camo. This is the portion of design that perturbs me the most: Why does light play such an insignificant role? Why are power nodes essentially a 1 trick pony?
<!--quoteo(post=2046030:date=Dec 14 2012, 10:17 PM:name=Fappuchino)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fappuchino @ Dec 14 2012, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046030"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've mentioned this before, why not make flashlight useful? Flashlight should increase the visibility of camo. This is the portion of design that perturbs me the most: Why does light play such an insignificant role? Why are power nodes essentially a 1 trick pony?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's a better idea than the non-existent ones a lot of other people have put forward. I'll say this in support, even though I don't personally like the idea; it's good because it comes with a trade off. That being that a Marine is visible to the Aliens commander when they have their flashlight on and are standing on top of infestation. Change 100% invisibility for 95% invisibility when a flashlight is on top of a cloaked unit or structure.
Of course, then Marines would complain about how crappy the flashlight is. Which it is, in all fairness. (HINT: Turn off atmospherics, you n00bs! They'll have to fix it eventually!)
<!--quoteo(post=2045988:date=Dec 15 2012, 01:24 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 15 2012, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, it's not. I'll be happy to 'school' anyone who thinks moving around makes any difference at all. The reality is that even though you have to 'move' you have to move SOMEWHERE. So yeah you can dance around in the middle of the room all you like, I'll just snicker and eat you alive when you come to build the power node or extractor. Or perhaps when you are going to go through a door. Or at a tight corner.
Cloaking - in of itself - isn't too powerful, the real issue is that there is no viable counter. Observatories won't cover much outside of main base, and you won't be dropping them anywhere else on the map. (aside from other tech points) Scan is fine, but it eats up what little resources you have.
So yeah, cloaking is OP, and the fact that nearly every Khamm goes that way first makes that point perfectly.
We had the same in NS1, except it was the opposite. Cloaking was the weak one, and if someone went cloaking first the aliens were crying and saying GG in chat. Then the devs made it balanced so that no one chamber was better than the others.
They'll nerf this. It's a given. They will nerf anything that becomes the defacto upgrade for any side. They have to or else you lose all variety in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its only a defacto upgrade because comms are still worrying about res nodes and not focusing on tech points when aliens go camo first.
Hold 2 other tech points with PG and obs (its not hard) and dont worry so much about res nodes in between as you now have the aliens stuck with shade/crag or shade/shift this makes the 2nd hive much less effective. The game tracks slower but a methodical marine team sticking to the plan can easily respond and hold out till upgrades weapons hit the field.
Its is this lack of strategy change that is why every khamm is going shade first, people will wise up and learn that there are different ways to play this game. Simply capping res is not always a winning strat, people just dont seem to want to realise this.
We need more variety not less, once more people start to realise the weakness of the shade hive it wont be such a winning strat and will become less popular. Finally though we have a shade hive worth having in the game, it offer a real alternative build path and strategy for BOTH sides.
<!--quoteo(post=2045983:date=Dec 15 2012, 02:15 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 15 2012, 02:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When talking about shade as a first or second hive, this is mostly irrelevant. Especially if you have four Onos. Getting shade as your third and final hive makes more sense late game as that's when you see Onos. Also, you will always 'see' the Onos coming with an observatory. Unless you're implying the alien commander cysted their main base and shifted a mature shade without them noticing. (In which case, I'd shift in tons of whips instead.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again actually not due to the range of the obs station, in some maps and positions you can look right into the enemy base without being detected by it. Actually I had an aliens commander use first hive shade on me recently on refinery.
I denied Lava falls for probabaly the first 1/3 of the match as a marine (because hey stopping them getting 2 resources towers while my team grabs the others.) The enemy commander realised but didn't know where I was to tell anyone to kill me so used shade to expand without me noticing to the nodes. They captured a second base and went shift hive on it in Turbine. We had all but their hive command point and turbine.
Suddenly cloaked Onos rush on main base, 3 of them so we get ported back in to stop them. Power does down, obs goes down. Suddenly we're ported again, this time to to Ore processing (this was before the Onos were down) only to arrive to a pack of skulks and a fade just as the power went down there. we all died as while we had portals at 2 of the 3 bases they powered down those two killing our respawns essentially. We pretty much dominated the map and even held them of lava falls but yet due to camo letting the 3 Onos get that close it was was over and no amount of upgrades to weapons etc could have stopped it
Also yes I do see the Irony in losing to the exact strategy I mentioned here being done on me
<!--quoteo(post=2046045:date=Dec 15 2012, 05:53 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Dec 15 2012, 05:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its only a defacto upgrade because comms are still worrying about res nodes and not focusing on tech points when aliens go camo first.
Hold 2 other tech points with PG and obs (its not hard) and dont worry so much about res nodes in between as you now have the aliens stuck with shade/crag or shade/shift this makes the 2nd hive much less effective. The game tracks slower but a methodical marine team sticking to the plan can easily respond and hold out till upgrades weapons hit the field.
Its is this lack of strategy change that is why every khamm is going shade first, people will wise up and learn that there are different ways to play this game. Simply capping res is not always a winning strat, people just dont seem to want to realise this.
We need more variety not less, once more people start to realise the weakness of the shade hive it wont be such a winning strat and will become less popular. Finally though we have a shade hive worth having in the game, it offer a real alternative build path and strategy for BOTH sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly
and the thing is, ive been seeing cloak 1st beeing used less and less and being beaten like this more often. Its clearly not OP because we arent seeing it being abused in clan matches and its getting defeated in pub games ... so i dont see the problem. Infact its such a breath of fresh air having a different strategy for once, its a shame all these idiots who cant learn to paly want to nerf it out of the game and go back to the same old boring shift hive first unless your team is so stacked you can afford to mess around.
Every single time an alien commander goes shade first I point out that it is a bad choice. It destroys the alien mid game, and more times than not prolongs a game longer than it should have gone or plain loses the game for aliens. You may have won with shade first and thought it was amazing, but you probably would have won anyways.
Shade, especially camo, may help skulks a bit (debatable, requires the person to have enough skill with a skulk to begin with to know when to use it and not just walk around the entire map cloaked), but it's absolutely useless for a lerk or a fade, where the alien mid game actually sits. Lerks are absolute beasts now that people are learning how to use them, along with fade (thanks to combat, people are learning proper fade movements to avoid shotguns, or at least how to play them in different situations). The only real advantage shade hive first gives the mid game is silenced gorges who can take out a power node with bile without notifying the enemy commander. That's about it. While this is very powerful, it's really hard coordinating people on a pub to do that.
The big issue about shade is when marines hold aliens to two hives (which happens a lot of the time in pubs). Shade + crag or shade + shift is just not good enough, especially if the marines manage to get w3/a3 and field some exos/jps. The game is basically over after that, even with onos. Whereas with crag + shift, multiple onos can deal with this situation.
Camo is fine, and spices things up, but it's going to be frowned upon soon, since most commanders are getting used to dealing with it now.
Comments
I'd say it's completely relevant to the perception of camo as OP. Also, you ignored my entire last paragraph.
And your "counters"... checking rooms with your LMG. Really? You think using all your ammo spraying the walls, ceilings, floors, and every little nook and cranny of a room looking for skulks while announcing your presence to the entire map is a suitable counter. I have to wonder how many of you defending camo actually play marine in pubs.
Camo could be balanced in a number of ways. Motion trackers, distance based shimmer, energy drain... It's not simply a matter of "Well I want 100% invisibility!" vs. "Well I want 90% transparency!". I'm also of the opinion that it should be an active ability rather than a passive one.
NO NO NO NO NO<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are u just hearing this song?
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFd5Cci_pE4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFd5Cci_pE4</a>
Or are u trying to give any useful feedback :>.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFd5Cci_pE4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFd5Cci_pE4</a>
Or are u trying to give any useful feedback :>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you call useful feedback completely negating the use of camo? all because solo marines stupidly get ambushed again and again instead of using idk... TACTICS, doesnt make an upgrade "OP" or "broken" and it doesnt need to be "FIXED"
this trend is the main problem with the dev cycle for this game. breaking game elements because a handful of people stupidly scream and cry for fixes for "OP" things constantly causes the game to fine one patch, completely one sided the next. to the point where its unplayable (like it is now imo).
theres your feedback.
this trend is the main problem with the dev cycle for this game. breaking game elements because a handful of people stupidly scream and cry for fixes for "OP" things constantly causes the game to fine one patch, completely one sided the next. to the point where its unplayable (like it is now imo).
theres your feedback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Angry boy :> . I dont call it OP. I would be glad if they keep it like it is. No one was screaming about camo in NS1 . In fact it was very underrated.
But I think that devs <u>will</u> change camo or anything to counter camo in a way I am disliking. To change camo in the way I said could be fine by me because its still 100 % invisibility and u can still come very close to your victim. Those uncloack-range have to be tested.
But I think that devs will change camo or anything to counter camo in a way I am disliking. To change camo in the way I said could be fine by me because its still 100 % invisibility and u can still come very close to your victim. Those uncloack-range have to be tested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
angry? howso
im not the one crying for nerfs. annoyed at stupid posts? sure.
why and how would marines need this radius of anti cloak? if marines need to unloack an area then they need to scan or drop an obs. alien coms need to drop cysts+shade to cloak an area, why do marines get a free counter to this?
im not the one crying for nerfs. annoyed at stupid posts? sure.
why and how would marines need this radius of anti cloak? if marines need to unloack an area then they need to scan or drop an obs. alien coms need to drop cysts+shade to cloak an area, why do marines get a free counter to this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldnt call this a "free counter" . Those uncloaking-range is already ingame. Actually the range is 0-1 :>. Its just an increase. Like increasing the time to cloak. Would u call that a "free counter" if they incresed that by 1-2 seconds?
yes
when you propose to quadruple it
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFd5Cci_pE4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFd5Cci_pE4</a>
Or are u trying to give any useful feedback :>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*glares*
Done well you could counter it and force team play more.
Possible solutions
1) EMF visors - Marines can see cloak generating enemies and structures and basic map outlines. They however can't see enemies or structures that aren't generating a cloak also only allows them to see enemies in their field of view. This would mean natural stealth would work still, shades would work still to hide enemies as only the shade would give off the cloak indication. It would also force the Marines to work together as the EMF visor marine would be vulnerable while using it because normal non cloaked enemies become invisible now to them. So he Marines have to switch vision modes. Balancing this could be either fairly high research cost comparably or low cost but having to get Marines to buy it for welder costs.
2) Add sonic emitters onto Arcs, making them a siege vehicle with defensive passives to uncloak but not mark on the map enemies. It would make the Arc almost a support vehicle of kinds and the cost balances out how useful it is.
3) Motion trackers - forcing a Marine to put down their weapon and use the tracker to check rooms for enemies. Possible research cost and buying them each time.
All possible counter really. I suggested the EMF visor to avoid the obvious Aliens motion tracker comparisons
Why stealth needs a change
If forces Marines to adopt a strategy that any good Alien commander already has two counters for. Marines can only win by doing a certain strategy the problem being that strategy has two counters already which a truly good alien commander will be able to use. Not only using cloak but being able to make rooms unscannable or by attacking on multiple fronts as the scan frequency mean multiple front fighting for Marines is off.
The resource drain it places on Marine commanders early game too
These people will then later complain when there's observatories in every room because they just sat in a corner camouflaged and waiting to jump a marine. Fun times.
Scans costing 3 res is pretty expensive, even reducing it to 2 res would help balance things out. Scans = 3 Tres + commander's attention. Players cannot ask for a scan quick enough because if they stop moving to request a scan they will be attacked. Even when I know an alien is somewhere in my proximity and I am randomly firing in places, they can still avoid me because they can just move out of the way and be perfectly invisible.
I think that if an alien is cloaked by a shade they should be able to move with 100% invisibility but if they have the cloaking evolution and they are moving around they should at least be partially visible.
know whats going to happens when you nerf something? youre going to break another thing and then have to balance that. especially something thats not even broken.
know whats going to happens when you nerf something? youre going to break another thing and then have to balance that. especially something thats not even broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
About the same time people started going QQ more I'll abuse this obvious advantage for all its worth and you can't stop me because I'm going to make sure I own every game and screw everyone else being allowed to have fun, only my fun is important.
Basically there's a limit to improvement and some things like Camo need a slight change as while Camo has a counter, the counter to Camo has two counter that can stop it while there is only the one way to significantly counter Camo. With a second method it would mix up gameplay and make it so the Alien commander had to think more and adapt more to Marines strategies rather than being able to Camo and force their tactics then if the Alien commander is good enough use this requires tactic on them.
Basically there's a limit to improvement and some things like Camo need a slight change as while Camo has a counter, the counter to Camo has two counter that can stop it while there is only the one way to significantly counter Camo. With a second method it would mix up gameplay and make it so the Alien commander had to think more and adapt more to Marines strategies rather than being able to Camo and force their tactics then if the Alien commander is good enough use this requires tactic on them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahhahahaha! Yep, Camo is such an <i>obvious</i> advantage that it loses every game versus teams of equal skill. If you're Marines commander, and the Aliens go Camo first, you should be laughing so hard that you have trouble hitting the 'scan' button. They just handed you a win, if you pull your head out of your rear long enough to actually command instead of playing turret defense.
Literally everything the Aliens can do is significantly weakened by going Camo first or second. Either you lack movement upgrades (Thusly celerity and adrenaline) or you lack defense upgrades (carapace or regeneration). If you plan on winning, you'll need Shift and Crag versus anyone that knows anything.
One scan can and will save you from dropping three health packs. That fact alone makes it worth while. The irony is that people will build a 10 T.Res armory to save them med pack spam, then complain about building an observatory that gives map hacks and negates an entire upgrade tree on the other team.
You can literally sprint to a second hive in NS2 as Marines. If you're stopping at in-between nodes and not building in a hive right off the bat, I'd say you're already doing it wrong. Especially versus Camo.
(EDIT: Go ahead and nerf camo though. I honestly don't care. It is a moronic idea as is when commanders pull this poor excuse of a strategy. I would prefer breaking bad alien commanders of this belief that it's useful since we're talking about an upgrade that's already researched last on decent teams. I'm very serious when I say this, it makes no difference.)
These people will then later complain when there's observatories in every room because they just sat in a corner camouflaged and waiting to jump a marine. Fun times.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wish there were more shade loving comms like you. I find silence to be superior to camo in every way after the first 4 minutes, and equal to it during that time.
Half the time a comm gets camo I don't even bother evolving it when I hatch. I know I'm not going to be sitting around invisible anyway on most maps, and the F key gives a lot of useful hiding spots.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/Xi3S1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 Without energy scans I think something like this would work better.
Hey if people are going to start throwing the arguments out the window and resorting to simply saying people are QQing and need to get good rather than discuss the points raised then I'll happily imply they prefer to win and own rather than have a good close game.
If the commanders are equally experienced then the Alien commander will know the only tactic Marines can use is the one described in this threat. The issue is the one counter tactic to cloak already has two counters to it. Most of the game is about choice and options as you can counter things in multiple ways and adapt strategies. Against an enemy commander who knows how to and a team who get the plan cloak forces the Marines into a a single tactic to win which can at present be countered by an experienced enough commander.
No choice.
No having to adapt.
Its the only real counter tactic so the Alien commander knows what's coming if the Marines are good, and if they aren't it doesn't matter.
<!--quoteo(post=2045915:date=Dec 14 2012, 11:18 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 14 2012, 11:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Literally everything the Aliens can do is significantly weakened by going Camo first or second. Either you lack movement upgrades (Thusly celerity and adrenaline) or you lack defense upgrades (carapace or regeneration). If you plan on winning, you'll need Shift and Crag versus anyone that knows anything.
One scan can and will save you from dropping three health packs. That fact alone makes it worth while. The irony is that people will build a 10 T.Res armory to save them med pack spam, then complain about building an observatory that gives map hacks and negates an entire upgrade tree on the other team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One ink release can cost the enemy a full team of Marines because of the fact it screwed over their scan. That's right for the same Res cost as the "Camo counter" Aliens can have a counter to that counter. Trust me more Alien Commanders will start using this, there are some already able to use this very well but as yet most Alien Commanders forget that those plants have extra abilities like that.
So no obs doesn't negate the entire upgrade tree if an Alien commander is being fed enough info by his team to prepare and know the enemies locations he can almost entirely shut down Obs without needing to have it destroyed.
<!--quoteo(post=2045915:date=Dec 14 2012, 11:18 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 14 2012, 11:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can literally sprint to a second hive in NS2 as Marines. If you're stopping at in-between nodes and not building in a hive right off the bat, I'd say you're already doing it wrong. Especially versus Camo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See that's the tactic there. No real choice in it you've been forced into it and a truly good Alien commander can exploit this fact. There needs to be a choice to it.
Hence the suggestions of you can use obs or you can pay more out in one go and get an item to counter it. The key thing being it would only counter the upgrade and allow people to kill the shade, it wouldn't stop Aliens being able to use shade camo to set up ambushes it would just mean Marines have a counter they can use to extend with just as camo evolution lets Aliens extend further.
At present Obs stations are the counter to Shade ambushes and shades are the counter to Obs scan based pushes. They both negate one another pretty well. Camo itself though doesn't have so much of an always on counter while it is a nearly always active ability. Also camo costs to research but to counter with Obs constantly costs and is a higher cost over time to do.
So aliens are invisible and weak in their base, and visible and weak in the Marines forward location. The entire time they're eating eggs out of the hive like candy. The Marines can win through simple attrition in your scenario. The Aliens spawn system starts to work against you fast, and if you're using shifts along with your shade you're spending a ton of T.Res now on egg's and constant ink just to hold your ground versus passive Marines. (You also assume competent commanders are using shade first outside of trolling new players, which they aren't.) This also means every higher life form on your team is paper thin, making shotguns a soft counter to your entire team.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See that's the tactic there. No real choice in it you've been forced into it and a truly good Alien commander can exploit this fact. There needs to be a choice to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You missed my point. Marines should already be doing things that counter Shade, even if the aliens <i>don't have shade</i>. That's the thing, regular Marines play should, when executed properly, negate shade even if it isn't present. It simply changes the build order in a very minor way for a little more T.Res. There should <i>be</i> no rambo wandering Marines by themselves, as with shade you have a reduced incentive to bother attacking their resource nodes. Everything they can build or upgrade to is far less effective at anything except hiding, and you can camp on two tech points to a win. Even if the other team saves up enough for Onos, they're paper Onos or slow Onos.
Shade will not stop or slow good Marines taking and holding a second tech point, and that's all they need to win versus P.Res Onos without Celerity/Carapace.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hence the suggestions of you can use obs or you can pay more out in one go and get an item to counter it...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Add as many counters as you want. I don't care because cloaking is a bad decision, and making cloaked aliens 100% <i>visible</i> would not change the order I already build things as alien commander. (While winning most games I command.) It just irks me that people make cloaking first out to be some sort of awesome, super powerful strategy when it simply isn't.
Actually on the high end gameplay for the skulk it points out a sort of pack move tactic that used well can take out Marine squads at the cost of maybe 1-2 skulks. Also you can and this is important split you offensive push. This is a move so few people do and can make a huge difference. Aliens can hold down locations fairly well against groups. Remember if you're know their coming gorges can block routes pretty well and a few hidden Hydras can force Marines to back off. Also while you're holding them off with minimal troops you can have your second pack capturing all the resources in the other direction or even behind the Marine force. Essentially forcing the battle of attrition to go in your favour by having the greater resources and importantly delaying the development of the Marines siege weapons such as flame thrower . Sure they can get through a wall but its a high risk thing early on especially with two gorges keeping the wall up, the only easy breach is to cover a guy welding the clogs down
<!--quoteo(post=2045948:date=Dec 15 2012, 12:34 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 15 2012, 12:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You missed my point. Marines should already be doing things that counter Shade, even if the aliens <i>don't have shade</i>. That's the thing, regular Marines play should, when executed properly, negate shade even if it isn't present. It simply changes the build order in a very minor way for a little more T.Res. There should <i>be</i> no rambo wandering Marines by themselves, as with shade you have a reduced incentive to bother attacking their resource nodes. Everything they can build or upgrade to is far less effective at anything except hiding, and you can camp on two tech points to a win. Even if the other team saves up enough for Onos, they're paper Onos or slow Onos.
Shade will not stop or slow good Marines taking and holding a second tech point, and that's all they need to win versus P.Res Onos without Celerity/Carapace.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Played well a stealth Onos with backing can attack from 4 locations. The commander for Marines has 1 scan and a limited team size. The Onos might not be fast but played well it will be in your base without you even seeing it coming and can get out recover and attack from a different angle next time. forcing the Commander to split his units then gives camo the edge for more ambushes using it.
While Obs is good to an extent a good Onos using stealth won't have a hard time due to it as they'll only be caught by it when they planned to attack anyway
<!--quoteo(post=2045948:date=Dec 15 2012, 12:34 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 15 2012, 12:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Add as many counters as you want. I don't care because cloaking is a bad decision, and making cloaked aliens 100% <i>visible</i> would not change the order I already build things as alien commander. (While winning most games I command.) It just irks me that people make cloaking first out to be some sort of awesome, super powerful strategy when it simply isn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said I wanted to make them 100 % visible. I said add an item that would but would then make uncloaked aliens 100% invisible to the user while the item is being used also it wouldn't effect shade camo on creatures only reveal the shade itself.
Anything done right can be a killer strategy its balancing between your plan and countering your opponents that is key. Just because a plan might not work for you doesn't mean others can't get the plan working such as central map control vs outer map control etc
Camo 1st is not a winner.
1st hive
Celerity => speed to close up marines and go fast thru the map where needed
2nd hive
Carapace => standing power
Adrenaline => Help the bile/spores
3 Hive
Now shade make your infestation a blackbox for marines. The right time to take it.
Camo is better than NS1 Sensory / cloacking and thanks the dev for that ! At least it can be used first with some hope of map control against unaware marines, or help make the decision on 3 hive.
The thing is that the 'pack move' mentality works no matter what upgrades you use, and a pack of celerity skulks that move together are both fast and deadly all the time, while cloaking packs of skulks are merely deadly, and crag skulks are slow and not much more durable. Splitting your forces at the start is logical, especially in a 'random' map, but after you know where the Marines started you aren't really splitting forces any more. As the Marines, that's why it's vitally important to secure a second hive <i>first</i>, then return to res nodes outside of the hives to clear alien harvesters and infestation.
What's more important mid-game? Higher life forms that are more durable and faster, or sneaky units that can hold territory better at the expensive of speed or durability? One is capable of assault, the other builds more resources at the expensive of less effective units mid-game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Played well a stealth Onos with backing can attack from 4 locations. The commander for Marines has 1 scan and a limited team size. The Onos might not be fast but played well it will be in your base without you even seeing it coming and can get out recover and attack from a different angle next time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When talking about shade as a first or second hive, this is mostly irrelevant. Especially if you have four Onos. Getting shade as your third and final hive makes more sense late game as that's when you see Onos. Also, you will always 'see' the Onos coming with an observatory. Unless you're implying the alien commander cysted their main base and shifted a mature shade without them noticing. (In which case, I'd shift in tons of whips instead.)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never said I wanted to make them 100 % visible. I said add an item that would but would then make uncloaked aliens 100% invisible to the user while the item is being used also it wouldn't effect shade camo on creatures only reveal the shade itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know, I was illustrating a point with hyperbole. The current version of cloaking is a bad choice as first or second hive, unless you plan on going all in and try to win before a second or third hive. This is usually something that only wins versus new player Marines and more especially bad Marine commanders. Good alien commanders against good Marines teams will not use this strategy unless they expect to drastically outplay the other team all game. This is not something you can 'plan' for, rather something you hope for. In that respect I feel it's an exceptionally weak decision as it relies fully on chance or stacking teams.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anything done right can be a killer strategy its balancing between your plan and countering your opponents that is key. Just because a plan might not work for you doesn't mean others can't get the plan working such as central map control vs outer map control etc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being done right and being a killer strategy are the same thing. Countering your opponents is key, and it's too easy for Marines to counter meaningfully than it is for Aliens to use their counters meaningfully with shade hive. Yes, ink blocks scans. That's great on infestation, but it also means Marines have a vastly higher likelihood of retaining at least two tech points and three RT's while still applying pressure to the Aliens Harvesters, which will eventually win them the game all other factors even. Basically it boils down to if you think your team is good enough to hold off the first few people that can P.Res Onos, which if they lack Shift and Crag upgrades and if Marines had W3/A3 I'd say it's pretty likely. Opinion yes, but it's what I've seen happen.
TL;DR
At best Shade first or second is a high risk high reward strategy. At worst it's under performing compared to other options.
This wall of text is my last, as I said none of it really matters but I want people to know why I think it's bad in detail. It might help someone else get better.
Cloaking - in of itself - isn't too powerful, the real issue is that there is no viable counter. Observatories won't cover much outside of main base, and you won't be dropping them anywhere else on the map. (aside from other tech points) Scan is fine, but it eats up what little resources you have.
So yeah, cloaking is OP, and the fact that nearly every Khamm goes that way first makes that point perfectly.
We had the same in NS1, except it was the opposite. Cloaking was the weak one, and if someone went cloaking first the aliens were crying and saying GG in chat. Then the devs made it balanced so that no one chamber was better than the others.
They'll nerf this. It's a given. They will nerf anything that becomes the defacto upgrade for any side. They have to or else you lose all variety in the game.
Cloaking - in of itself - isn't too powerful, the real issue is that there is no viable counter. Observatories won't cover much outside of main base, and you won't be dropping them anywhere else on the map. (aside from other tech points) Scan is fine, but it eats up what little resources you have.
So yeah, cloaking is OP, and the fact that nearly every Khamm goes that way first makes that point perfectly.
We had the same in NS1, except it was the opposite. Cloaking was the weak one, and if someone went cloaking first the aliens were crying and saying GG in chat. Then the devs made it balanced so that no one chamber was better than the others.
They'll nerf this. It's a given. They will nerf anything that becomes the defacto upgrade for any side. They have to or else you lose all variety in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
is today opposite day ? or are you just another playtester that doesnt play the game ?
It's a better idea than the non-existent ones a lot of other people have put forward. I'll say this in support, even though I don't personally like the idea; it's good because it comes with a trade off. That being that a Marine is visible to the Aliens commander when they have their flashlight on and are standing on top of infestation. Change 100% invisibility for 95% invisibility when a flashlight is on top of a cloaked unit or structure.
Of course, then Marines would complain about how crappy the flashlight is. Which it is, in all fairness. (HINT: Turn off atmospherics, you n00bs! They'll have to fix it eventually!)
Cloaking - in of itself - isn't too powerful, the real issue is that there is no viable counter. Observatories won't cover much outside of main base, and you won't be dropping them anywhere else on the map. (aside from other tech points) Scan is fine, but it eats up what little resources you have.
So yeah, cloaking is OP, and the fact that nearly every Khamm goes that way first makes that point perfectly.
We had the same in NS1, except it was the opposite. Cloaking was the weak one, and if someone went cloaking first the aliens were crying and saying GG in chat. Then the devs made it balanced so that no one chamber was better than the others.
They'll nerf this. It's a given. They will nerf anything that becomes the defacto upgrade for any side. They have to or else you lose all variety in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its only a defacto upgrade because comms are still worrying about res nodes and not focusing on tech points when aliens go camo first.
Hold 2 other tech points with PG and obs (its not hard) and dont worry so much about res nodes in between as you now have the aliens stuck with shade/crag or shade/shift this makes the 2nd hive much less effective. The game tracks slower but a methodical marine team sticking to the plan can easily respond and hold out till upgrades weapons hit the field.
Its is this lack of strategy change that is why every khamm is going shade first, people will wise up and learn that there are different ways to play this game.
Simply capping res is not always a winning strat, people just dont seem to want to realise this.
We need more variety not less, once more people start to realise the weakness of the shade hive it wont be such a winning strat and will become less popular.
Finally though we have a shade hive worth having in the game, it offer a real alternative build path and strategy for BOTH sides.
Again actually not due to the range of the obs station, in some maps and positions you can look right into the enemy base without being detected by it. Actually I had an aliens commander use first hive shade on me recently on refinery.
I denied Lava falls for probabaly the first 1/3 of the match as a marine (because hey stopping them getting 2 resources towers while my team grabs the others.) The enemy commander realised but didn't know where I was to tell anyone to kill me so used shade to expand without me noticing to the nodes. They captured a second base and went shift hive on it in Turbine.
We had all but their hive command point and turbine.
Suddenly cloaked Onos rush on main base, 3 of them so we get ported back in to stop them. Power does down, obs goes down. Suddenly we're ported again, this time to to Ore processing (this was before the Onos were down) only to arrive to a pack of skulks and a fade just as the power went down there. we all died as while we had portals at 2 of the 3 bases they powered down those two killing our respawns essentially.
We pretty much dominated the map and even held them of lava falls but yet due to camo letting the 3 Onos get that close it was was over and no amount of upgrades to weapons etc could have stopped it
Also yes I do see the Irony in losing to the exact strategy I mentioned here being done on me
Hold 2 other tech points with PG and obs (its not hard) and dont worry so much about res nodes in between as you now have the aliens stuck with shade/crag or shade/shift this makes the 2nd hive much less effective. The game tracks slower but a methodical marine team sticking to the plan can easily respond and hold out till upgrades weapons hit the field.
Its is this lack of strategy change that is why every khamm is going shade first, people will wise up and learn that there are different ways to play this game.
Simply capping res is not always a winning strat, people just dont seem to want to realise this.
We need more variety not less, once more people start to realise the weakness of the shade hive it wont be such a winning strat and will become less popular.
Finally though we have a shade hive worth having in the game, it offer a real alternative build path and strategy for BOTH sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly
and the thing is, ive been seeing cloak 1st beeing used less and less and being beaten like this more often. Its clearly not OP because we arent seeing it being abused in clan matches and its getting defeated in pub games ... so i dont see the problem. Infact its such a breath of fresh air having a different strategy for once, its a shame all these idiots who cant learn to paly want to nerf it out of the game and go back to the same old boring shift hive first unless your team is so stacked you can afford to mess around.
Shade, especially camo, may help skulks a bit (debatable, requires the person to have enough skill with a skulk to begin with to know when to use it and not just walk around the entire map cloaked), but it's absolutely useless for a lerk or a fade, where the alien mid game actually sits. Lerks are absolute beasts now that people are learning how to use them, along with fade (thanks to combat, people are learning proper fade movements to avoid shotguns, or at least how to play them in different situations). The only real advantage shade hive first gives the mid game is silenced gorges who can take out a power node with bile without notifying the enemy commander. That's about it. While this is very powerful, it's really hard coordinating people on a pub to do that.
The big issue about shade is when marines hold aliens to two hives (which happens a lot of the time in pubs). Shade + crag or shade + shift is just not good enough, especially if the marines manage to get w3/a3 and field some exos/jps. The game is basically over after that, even with onos. Whereas with crag + shift, multiple onos can deal with this situation.
Camo is fine, and spices things up, but it's going to be frowned upon soon, since most commanders are getting used to dealing with it now.