So when are you going to fix cloaking?
sanobrew
Join Date: 2007-05-04 Member: 60801Members
Join Date: 2007-05-04 Member: 60801Members
Let's face it cloaking atm is totally OP. While the alien's movement is reduced while cloak it doesn't help the fact that they can still move whilst 100% invisible. Now in NS1 aliens could move and be 100% cloaked but it wasn't as big of an issue. In NS1 there was no power node and observatories could be built anywhere not to mention observatories could scan with their separate energy pool meaning it did not use up resources that could be built on different structures and items. Going sensory chamber in NS1 meant that aliens would have more of an advantage in the early game but were at a disadvantage in the late game due to the Movement+Defense being a better combo.
In NS2 however, aliens can obtain a 2nd hive much faster meaning that the disadvantage of going cloaking tech in the late game is totally negated as the early game advantage continuously propels the aliens forward. The main strategy of going cloaking it to obtain map control and then simply save for the whole team to go Onos and steam roll the marine team. Cloaking also removes the stealth play that the Skulk role is made for, they can simply stand in the middle of a hallway 100% invisible and slowly approach their enemy right in front of their eyes.
I have a couple of suggestions to fix this issue and you can choose to adopt 1 or multiple of these:
-Add an energy pool to the observatory (similar to NS1)
-Reduce the cost to scan from 3 to 2 Tres
-Movement while cloaked will result in 90% invisibility (that way when a marine knows an alien is around if they pay attention they can spot an alien but if they don't know the alien will be harder to spot).
-Add an upgrade to the observatory which would make the flashlight able to bring down the alien invisibility to 75%, the marine would still have to point the flashlight directly at the alien in order to have this effect (no lens flare effect for the alien though).
-Make it longer for aliens to cloak
In NS2 however, aliens can obtain a 2nd hive much faster meaning that the disadvantage of going cloaking tech in the late game is totally negated as the early game advantage continuously propels the aliens forward. The main strategy of going cloaking it to obtain map control and then simply save for the whole team to go Onos and steam roll the marine team. Cloaking also removes the stealth play that the Skulk role is made for, they can simply stand in the middle of a hallway 100% invisible and slowly approach their enemy right in front of their eyes.
I have a couple of suggestions to fix this issue and you can choose to adopt 1 or multiple of these:
-Add an energy pool to the observatory (similar to NS1)
-Reduce the cost to scan from 3 to 2 Tres
-Movement while cloaked will result in 90% invisibility (that way when a marine knows an alien is around if they pay attention they can spot an alien but if they don't know the alien will be harder to spot).
-Add an upgrade to the observatory which would make the flashlight able to bring down the alien invisibility to 75%, the marine would still have to point the flashlight directly at the alien in order to have this effect (no lens flare effect for the alien though).
-Make it longer for aliens to cloak
Comments
Basically most of the stuff you do with cloak you could just do it better using walk and jump techniques.
How long to cloak?
I think cloak times are fine, I just want aliens to have to stay still to use it. That way silence becomes the upgrade if you want to be sneaky but also mobile.
I feel the removal of motion tracking was one of the things that really hurt the pub scene's ability to deal with cloakers. So while comm scans were always the better solution, the pubbie solution is now gone, and for many comms that leaves them in the cold.
Basically most of the stuff you do with cloak you could just do it better using walk and jump techniques.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh hey, did you know there's a bug right now that allows cloaked skulks to move at full speed? I know, wild right? I'm sure invisible skulks running around at marine sprinting speeds is totally negated by dumping your tres into constant scans and moving around 40% slower than the skulks you're trying to avoid.
Don't ask how to reproduce it. It's an easy to stumble upon bug and telling others how to do it will get the thread locked.
Bugs or no, in pubs the fact is that 100% invisible silent skulks at 2 minutes in will result in marines unable to push forward and secure res nodes while khamm takes over most of the map and stunts marine growth for the remainder of the round. Grouping up for safety leaves massive gaps in marine defense. Spreading out spells death for individual marines trying to take or hold ground. Larger servers may give marines an advantage, but the only solid response besides spamming observatories or scans and crippling your economy is to group up and head for the hive, hoping that you can take it down before they get to your undefended CC.
I think cloak times are fine, I just want aliens to have to stay still to use it. That way silence becomes the upgrade if you want to be sneaky but also mobile.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you kind of have to stand still to cloak. and it does make a sound noticable by marines.
I feel the removal of motion tracking was one of the things that really hurt the pub scene's ability to deal with cloakers. So while comm scans were always the better solution, the pubbie solution is now gone, and for many comms that leaves them in the cold.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
how about a handheld thermal detector? 5pres like the welder.
but it's not the full screen. just a screen on the handheld device. checking rooms with that will be thrilling =)
totally not relevant to the conversation we're having here :
<!--quoteo(post=2045294:date=Dec 14 2012, 03:57 AM:name=sanobrew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sanobrew @ Dec 14 2012, 03:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's face it cloaking atm is totally OP. <u>While the alien's movement is reduced</u> while cloak it doesn't help the fact that they can still move whilst 100% invisible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although at least it's not another one of those "Marine jumping is so OP!" threads.
As for contributing to the discussion, I'm just going to copy paste what I said not that long ago in another recent camo thread that really didn't need to be made:
<!--quoteo(post=2045287:date=Dec 13 2012, 09:39 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Dec 13 2012, 09:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea that camo should only work on infestation is a terrible one, although it got me thinking.
There's lots of people who are irked by camo movement being 100% invisible. Though there are others that beleive anything other than 100% visible may aswell be 100% visible to a keen set of eyes (I am of this camp). I think a good compromise would be having 100% invisible cloak movement on infestation, but some 99% visible predator effect off infestation.
I still think the better option would to fix the effect constant scanning has on the marine economy. Camoflague is counterable with scan, but is still expensive, and it's not as if the extra micro the commander has to do doesn't have it's drawbacks already (if only slightly). I've said this countless times in other threads - make scanning cost no res. Either have a massive cooldown, or have a small energy pool and regeneration rate to prevent spamming and force the marines to spend more res on multiple observatories to scan more often (although still costs res, is a one time investment and costs less than having to scan every 30 seconds).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/Xi3S1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I love that game.
physkills are sooo much fun..and physkilling a whole 9 member team...sweet sweet honey
and it is for FREE (only need HL²)
Played lots of games as marines where aliens went camo first...poor sods never got to see their third hive...so we never had much to worry about.
With camo it means aliens will be delaying either cara/regen or celerity/adren maybe even permanently delaying.
Its risky as if marines play well, group up take tech points, build lots of obs and play more cautiously they will out tech the alien side who without crag and shift hives struggle to push against a half way organized side.
The problem in a lot of pubs is that people are only used to playing 1 way and dont like change (ie the prevelance of crag then shift & shade...thanks to legacy ns biuld orders) and this is obvious when you try this strat against a half decent marine comm (blows up in khamms face).
Cloaking has to be 100%, if its not it might as well not be in the game at all as people will find ways to "tweak" a clearer picture.
Sure its fun with cloaking to hassle marines but to actually win against a competent comm is actually very hard, you need a very good team and some luck.
Cloaking is fine, it makes shade viable and clearly creates an alternate build order. All the feedback around cloaking in the beta was worth it, we actually now have a decent shade hive that people actually upgrade to prior to having 2 other hives.
Shade is only good if the marine comm is lazy and does not have a counter strat, its definitely beatable.
This.
Wish players would understand that if you know how to move around, you're pretty much hidden anyway. If a marine spots you, either he did a good job or you did a bad job. In both cases, it serves you or him right.
Perhaps fade could use an invisibility upgrade (or have it from the beginning) and cloaking perhaps removed thoroughly. It's a broken mechanism and it either works too good or backfires too bad. There's no point.
And actually, silent footsteps helps you a lot with moving around silently. Now you can, in fact, do it while running at full speed with celerity. Like, how awesome is that?
And yeah, Onos staying invisible is just plain ridiculous and makes no sense. Don't think that a Gorge should either be capable of doing that. Skulks & Lerks can stay hidden and avoid fire with their movement. While Fade would be the only one that actually could stealth. I think this would be fair.
Biggest issue I have with cloak is that it removes immersion from the game.
Disagree. cloaking really adds to the immersion for me. You get that awesome looking effect as the alien and its all predator like as i stalk my prey like a real predator. Makes me feel like a deadly alien.
As a marine, i love the feeling of being one second away from death at every step. And then when the commander scans and reveals 9000 cloaked skulks who were creeping up to kill me, i get huge chills. I can't exactly see where they are because of the scan circles, but thats ok, because i remember how i went through this in marine training school. I kill them all, but then i hear the commander yell in panic "I have no res left to scan! You're on your own marine! God speed!". Dread creeps over me like icy veins of frost. How am i going to survive the next wave of monsters from the dark? Commader! Drop me a flamethrower! To be continued.. Chapter 2.
if it were OP, clans would be using it all the time
And I do understand that some players have hard time realizing this and that it gets stale when you're just basically killing those Skulks that are constantly rushing head on to ya. But against a decent Skulk, you're already running into some issues. And yeah, I also see a lot of marines who just don't understand that that they can also crouch around instead of run and let everyone know that they're there. Just like Skulks who don't understand that it pays off to crouch in vents near areas that aren't secured.
As a marine, i love the feeling of being one second away from death at every step. And then when the commander scans and reveals 9000 cloaked skulks who were creeping up to kill me, i get huge chills. I can't exactly see where they are because of the scan circles, but thats ok, because i remember how i went through this in marine training school. I kill them all, but then i hear the commander yell in panic "I have no res left to scan! You're on your own marine! God speed!". Dread creeps over me like icy veins of frost. How am i going to survive the next wave of monsters from the dark? Commader! Drop me a flamethrower! To be continued.. Chapter 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure if serious...
On one hand, you're talking about immersion (a topic you've often talked about sarcastically, though to be fair, on the topic of visual-obstructions), and you added an awful amount of dramatic flair to your story (which could be sarcasm in the form of exaggeration).
On the other hand, your point about feeling like you're on death's door is actually a valid one. I remember in ns1, I would sometimes just spray my lmg in places where there were skulks might be to anticipate attacks. That lingering feeling of paranoia and dread that comes with your enemy being invisible is actually quite cool in my opinion.
This elodea is currently semi-serious, so he's still mostly a real elodea.
+1 for elodea.
Edit:
Leme just get real here.
The only problem many people have is 1hive cloaks.
What the downside to 1hive cloaking is for aliens is that they NEED, (literally NEED TO) have a second hive.
otherwise they can not, and will not win.
Thats how you choke em down, take over strategic points like tech points and just set up obs / phase gate in there and you're fine. Don't run to extractor points that are lonesome, thats where you'll get attacked, just sit on the res tower at the tech points and you're done.
This is the best counter to that.
If it fails, then you or your team just sucks and it's a lost game not because of camo but because of bad players.
Blaming losing on a mechanic is bad sportsmanship.
Change Camouflage to be different than Shade Cloaking. Camouflage is not revealed by scanner sweeps or the observatory passive radius. However, it's not as effective as cloaking and can be countered by marines on the field in some way. My ideas were to either move it back to being a partial cloak that can be seen if looking closely, or make it visible when the marine shines their flashlight on the area. This way alien vs marine fights on the field stay on the field, and the comm doesn't have to get involved.
Invisibility is boolean. You either are invisible, or you are not.
0% transparency = visible
99% transparency = visible
100% transparency = invisible
But I can understand the frustration of some pub-players because camo forces u to change your gamestyle drasticly.
Just give any marine the ability to uncloack anything in front of the marine ( 180 degree ) for , lets say, 5-6 meters. Marines would have a chance to avoid the first 100 % bite and its not such a strong nerf.
But keep away from those "90% visibility"-######. Good players will still see that without problems. That solution was implented in beta and cloacking was near to useless
But I can understand the frustration of some pub-players because camo forces u to change your gamestyle drasticly.
Just give any marine the ability to uncloack anything in front of the marine ( 180 degree ) for , lets say, 5-6 meters. Marines would have a chance to avoid the first 100 % bite and its not such a strong nerf.
But keep away from those "90% visibility"-######. Good players will still see that without problems.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO
NO NO NO NO NO