<!--quoteo(post=2041795:date=Dec 7 2012, 07:42 PM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Dec 7 2012, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or they could have instant animations with feedback sent from the server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's what the game currently does. Blood splats with number scrolling.
<!--quoteo(post=2041781:date=Dec 7 2012, 04:13 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 7 2012, 04:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The delay is because it's server side. It would be VERY disorienting to have damage numbers pop up a half second later if they didn't scroll. You'd have no idea what was hitting and when. The current system isn't amazing for hit feedback, but it gives you a really good sense of how much damage you're registering, and therefore how efficient your attacks are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the scrolling numbers are bad for alien, though. if you're biting an RT and you move around you'll never be able to tell which bites are glancing and which aren't for example
<!--quoteo(post=2041818:date=Dec 7 2012, 09:22 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Dec 7 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041818"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the scrolling numbers are bad for alien, though. if you're biting an RT and you move around you'll never be able to tell which bites are glancing and which aren't for example<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2041818:date=Dec 7 2012, 08:22 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Dec 7 2012, 08:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041818"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the scrolling numbers are bad for alien, though. if you're biting an RT and you move around you'll never be able to tell which bites are glancing and which aren't for example<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed, the whole glancing system is very poorly communicated right now, it needs much better feedback.
<!--quoteo(post=2043868:date=Dec 11 2012, 12:58 PM:name=ExplosifBe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ExplosifBe @ Dec 11 2012, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread needs a little push to the frontpage as it is important.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> there's not much to do realistically until proper demo recording tools are implemented.
you can't expect players to record their games constantly at high enough framerates to isolate an issue like this. on top of that, it's not something where the average pub player would be skilled enough to notice - so your feedback is going to be mostly limited to higher skilled players, who care that much more about things like preserving framerate for performance.
most of the issues are simply related to the jerky animations of NS2, as well. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUxnQ9Z5NNs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUxnQ9Z5NNs</a> this is a good example - I'm firing directly at a Skulk in a vent, and for some reason the animation has it "duck" underneath my shot. if you check the frame-by-frame, it's a proper miss. realtime, I could have sworn I shot him. you can even check in a listen server with a Skulk jumping up and down in place or on walls - it's twitchy and gives poor feedback
pile animations on top of the regular rifle spread, the shotgun's random spread (which still needs fixing external to this hit registry issue), combat text not displaying (also a large issue), performance issues (biggest problem), and you have a perceived "hit registry" issue.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist - it 100% for sure does. but it seems quite isolated, I doubt it's anything large enough to influence marine winrates, which is a common complaint.
"who care that much more about things like preserving framerate for performance" or those who preserve frames to amount for our *lack* of innate skill. Then again, we wouldn't be usually making demos would we...
I was playing a game earlier on refinery. I was a marine by the vent in logistics. I looked into it to see if a skulk was coming to guard my teammates building the rt. A skulk came out at the same time, creep walking. I shot it. It died. It was point blank in my face almost. I didn't miss a shot. Lots of green blood splatter everywhere. I looked at remaining rounds in LMG, 18..... It took me 32 shots to kill a skulk point blank in my face.
Take the skulk from the above video and halve the distance, maybe even closer. I also blasted a skulk with a shot gun point blank, plenty of blood splatter but no damage shown or done (lvl 3 weapons at the time). Frustration ensues.
<!--quoteo(post=2044166:date=Dec 11 2012, 10:08 PM:name=Azaral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Azaral @ Dec 11 2012, 10:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044166"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was playing a game earlier on refinery. I was a marine by the vent in logistics. I looked into it to see if a skulk was coming to guard my teammates building the rt. A skulk came out at the same time, creep walking. I shot it. It died. It was point blank in my face almost. I didn't miss a shot. Lots of green blood splatter everywhere. I looked at remaining rounds in LMG, 18..... It took me 32 shots to kill a skulk point blank in my face.
Take the skulk from the above video and halve the distance, maybe even closer. I also blasted a skulk with a shot gun point blank, plenty of blood splatter but no damage shown or done (lvl 3 weapons at the time). Frustration ensues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In terms of issue 1: Your game takes a certain amount of time (usually about .2 seconds) to register your final bullet connecting with the skulk and the skulk dying. This is because you must send your firing data to the server, the server must conform that the hits have indeed impacted, and then return the data to you that the skulk is dead. The AR fires it's whole clip in about 3 seconds. If you assume the first 9 bullets hit without any near misses (unlikely) and then the server took an additional .2 seconds before it informed your client that it was dead, add another .2 seconds for the skulk model to properly rag doll in a way that is visible, and then another .2 seconds for normal human reaction speed... so your reaction from the time the skulk probably was ACTUALLY dead, was likely to be .6 seconds after you had fired the first 9 shots.
It's normal for you to perceive 20 bullets having been fired before a death is registered. Add the near misses and you're likely somewhere around 25, add a ping spike and you can easily bump up another 10 rounds fired.
32 is bad, but it's still within the realm of expected performance for a game engine with no issues at all in a particularly adverse scenario.
<!--quoteo(post=2044165:date=Dec 11 2012, 07:07 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Dec 11 2012, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"who care that much more about things like preserving framerate for performance" or those who preserve frames to amount for our *lack* of innate skill. Then again, we wouldn't be usually making demos would we...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ?
<!--quoteo(post=2044217:date=Dec 11 2012, 11:27 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Dec 11 2012, 11:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044217"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think he's protesting that we shouldn't have to record video for them to fix the bug, or make demos, because we'll lose FPS while playing. Something about making up for the lack of "innate" skill by getting higher FPS. I kinda don't feel like anyone who's not playing competitively should complain about innate skill issues... and anyone who is should accept you're going to be required to record demos every match regardless, so don't bother complaining.
Which is wonderful in imaginary land, but you can't fix a problem when you don't know what's causing it.
<!--quoteo(post=2044234:date=Dec 11 2012, 09:37 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 11 2012, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think he's protesting that we shouldn't have to record video for them to fix the bug, or make demos, because we'll lose FPS while playing. Something about making up for the lack of "innate" skill by getting higher FPS. I kinda don't feel like anyone who's not playing competitively should complain about innate skill issues... and anyone who is should accept you're going to be required to record demos every match regardless, so don't bother complaining.
Which is wonderful in imaginary land, but you can't fix a problem when you don't know what's causing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> no, that was my complaint.
demos are the only requirement for ENSL and don't have any hit on performance. it's irrelevant because demos are useless anyway. it's just silly to expect everyone to record all of their games at high enough quality and framerate to make them of any use because it really hinders performance in a game where every frame is precious to begin with.
I was either wrong or B233 made the issue a lot worse than before. I believe it was the patch just simply due to the sheer amount of instances in such a short amount of time (it <i>seemed</i> quite rare before). these are all gathered from -one- game:
<!--quoteo(post=2044291:date=Dec 12 2012, 09:09 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Dec 12 2012, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was either wrong or B233 made the issue a lot worse than before. I believe it was the patch just simply due to the sheer amount of instances in such a short amount of time (it <i>seemed</i> quite rare before). these are all gathered from -one- game:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz-NXi-j4TQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz-NXi-j4TQ</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> that time in the vent in your video, i get that ###### all the time, what's worse is when the skulk goes through you
I shot a skulk square in the face with a shotgun inside a vent today. Tons of blood, 0 damage was drawn... really wish I had it recorded. I've been noticing quite a few instances of seeing blood squirts and 0 damage drawn this patch too. :s
Thanks for the video! It's pretty clear that blood is drawn even though damage isn't registered for the first clip.
I'm a little confused on the last clip though - that first bite, when you initially drop on the marine, that looked like a legit miss. Am I misunderstanding it?
<!--quoteo(post=2044857:date=Dec 13 2012, 02:41 AM:name=SteveRock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SteveRock @ Dec 13 2012, 02:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for the video! It's pretty clear that blood is drawn even though damage isn't registered for the first clip.
I'm a little confused on the last clip though - that first bite, when you initially drop on the marine, that looked like a legit miss. Am I misunderstanding it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> From my perceptive it looked like a hit, but that's very much a grey area one. It's entirely possible it skimmed just outside the damage cone. When is damage calculated relative to the bite animation? Does it approximately match the frame where the teeth bite or is it immediate on mouse click?
Before last patch i would lose most fights 1v1 as a marine against a skulk. Bad fps, bad hitreg etc. But since last patch i've been doing ALOT better. More shots reg and i now stand a fair chance at killing some skulks. I dunno if its because of fps, hitreg improvements or servers, but the game did get better. It's not always perfect but at least im enjoying playing marine again.
<!--quoteo(post=2044857:date=Dec 12 2012, 11:41 PM:name=SteveRock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SteveRock @ Dec 12 2012, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for the video! It's pretty clear that blood is drawn even though damage isn't registered for the first clip.
I'm a little confused on the last clip though - that first bite, when you initially drop on the marine, that looked like a legit miss. Am I misunderstanding it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> it looks like a miss but the glancing bite cones are really wide
<img src="http://imgur.com/4IOkm.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> first frame of the bite animation <img src="http://imgur.com/7aMdg.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> a -25 glancing bite with the model to the very very far left
pretty rough estimations not exact but there's definitely lots of margin for error
additionally, it's hard to hear through the gunfire and music, but both the blood trickle and bite crunching noises play on the first bite
<!--quoteo(post=2044863:date=Dec 13 2012, 01:16 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 13 2012, 01:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From my perceptive it looked like a hit, but that's very much a grey area one. It's entirely possible it skimmed just outside the damage cone. When is damage calculated relative to the bite animation? Does it approximately match the frame where the teeth bite or is it immediate on mouse click?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> should be instant
<!--quoteo(post=2044857:date=Dec 13 2012, 02:41 AM:name=SteveRock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SteveRock @ Dec 13 2012, 02:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for the video! It's pretty clear that blood is drawn even though damage isn't registered for the first clip.
I'm a little confused on the last clip though - that first bite, when you initially drop on the marine, that looked like a legit miss. Am I misunderstanding it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It clearly wasn't a direct hit but it should definitely fall in the 25 damage zone IMO. Bites like that are exactly why glancing hits were added.
Also, if I'm not mistaken it looked like the "took damage" yellow outline appears after that first bite?
- majority of "hit reg problems" are not actually hitreg problems but are attributed to the wonky animations of lifeforms including the flinch animations although that may be fixed in the current update, so "hitreg" might actually be okay in most servers but it's just impossible to aim at a skulk who is walking towards you in a straight line because his animation makes him go everywhere. I still think the flinch animations should be desynced from the model, you have to track at essentially light speed at 120fps in order to see that you are aiming at the animations even though the skulk is moving in a straight line.
- when damage is done sometimes no drawn damage is shown (blood but no text)
- drawn damage is not accurate is it does not represent the total damage of the shots but only the damage leading up to the death of the lifeform, this is especially true with shotguns. Scrolling text is also annoying and gets in the way of trying to decipher what damage you actually did and there is no way to make decisions from it because of that.
- lower framerates could lead to worse hitreg, but it's most likely because your framerate is not with your rate of fire so it may look like you are tracking perfectly where no damage is done
- shotguns requires pixel-perfect aim in most cases to consistently 1-shot because of how spread works
- demo recording doesn't well and this hinders any progress into trying to find out hitreg problems
- shotguns are the most showing of hitreg problems because there can be perfect shots that do 0 damage
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->@ Gliss and others ...
I think that main thing people misunderstand when trying to analyze hit reg from a recorded video or demo, is that the models are not being represented correctly in the first place. Without debug commands from the devs, that should be interactive features of a demo that show hitbox and model positioning, these videos only prove one thing ... lag compensation on the spark engine is not performing as intended.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=2045096:date=Dec 13 2012, 09:19 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Dec 13 2012, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- drawn damage is not accurate is it does not represent the total damage of the shots but only the damage leading up to the death of the lifeform, this is especially true with shotguns. Scrolling text is also annoying and gets in the way of trying to decipher what damage you actually did and there is no way to make decisions from it because of that.
- shotguns are the most showing of hitreg problems because there can be perfect shots that do 0 damage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Today I did 80 dmg draw damage to a vanilla skulk with my vanilla marine. I asked about his health and he said it was around 50. Something is not right there. Only 10 hp should remain.
Also the flinching animation is still broken. You still have to aim to the base of harvesters or whips to inflict "maximum" damage.
about the shotgun: just yes I shot through an onos arse from the side. or a sneaking skulk right infront of my feet (just 50 dmg). And as you know sneaking skulks are darn slow.
<!--quoteo(post=2045075:date=Dec 13 2012, 11:29 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Dec 13 2012, 11:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045075"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It clearly wasn't a direct hit but it should definitely fall in the 25 damage zone IMO. Bites like that are exactly why glancing hits were added.
Also, if I'm not mistaken it looked like the "took damage" yellow outline appears after that first bite?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> that's a really good observation, I didn't notice that. I guess that is also client-side as well.
<!--quoteo(post=2045096:date=Dec 13 2012, 12:19 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Dec 13 2012, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- majority of "hit reg problems" are not actually hitreg problems but are attributed to the wonky animations of lifeforms<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> up until B233 I would have agreed with you, but I'm experiencing these issues almost every single encounter now, unrelated to the flinching animations.
I think that main thing people misunderstand when trying to analyze hit reg from a recorded video or demo, is that the models are not being represented correctly in the first place. Without debug commands from the devs, that should be interactive features of a demo that show hitbox and model positioning, these videos only prove one thing ... lag compensation on the spark engine is not performing as intended.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> demo recording does not function properly. as I said earlier, until a proper demo system is implemented this is the best we can do.
<!--quoteo(post=2045123:date=Dec 13 2012, 01:07 PM:name=Sehzade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sehzade @ Dec 13 2012, 01:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also the flinching animation is still broken. You still have to aim to the base of harvesters or whips to inflict "maximum" damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> this should be fixed in B233?
<!--quoteo(post=2045096:date=Dec 13 2012, 02:19 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Dec 13 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... majority of "hit reg problems" are not actually hitreg problems but are attributed to the wonky animations of lifeforms ... it's just impossible to aim at a skulk who is walking towards you in a straight line because his animation makes him go everywhere ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->Even though your exaggerating the strait line situation, I agree with you 100% about the animations, <b>especially</b> the skulks! There have been countless times where a skulk was making <i>real simple</i> movements trying to attack me, but the terrain and skulk movement physics throws and spins the model all over the place, making it next to impossible to predict and shoot the skulk. On top of the lag compensation, this makes for situations where I literally give up and take out my knife ...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Comments
That's what the game currently does. Blood splats with number scrolling.
the scrolling numbers are bad for alien, though. if you're biting an RT and you move around you'll never be able to tell which bites are glancing and which aren't for example
Very annoying ^ issue deserves its own thread
Agreed, the whole glancing system is very poorly communicated right now, it needs much better feedback.
there's not much to do realistically until proper demo recording tools are implemented.
you can't expect players to record their games constantly at high enough framerates to isolate an issue like this. on top of that, it's not something where the average pub player would be skilled enough to notice - so your feedback is going to be mostly limited to higher skilled players, who care that much more about things like preserving framerate for performance.
most of the issues are simply related to the jerky animations of NS2, as well.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUxnQ9Z5NNs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUxnQ9Z5NNs</a> this is a good example - I'm firing directly at a Skulk in a vent, and for some reason the animation has it "duck" underneath my shot. if you check the frame-by-frame, it's a proper miss. realtime, I could have sworn I shot him. you can even check in a listen server with a Skulk jumping up and down in place or on walls - it's twitchy and gives poor feedback
pile animations on top of the regular rifle spread, the shotgun's random spread (which still needs fixing external to this hit registry issue), combat text not displaying (also a large issue), performance issues (biggest problem), and you have a perceived "hit registry" issue.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist - it 100% for sure does. but it seems quite isolated, I doubt it's anything large enough to influence marine winrates, which is a common complaint.
edit: holy jesus was I wrong.
One time I've managed to continue shooting and aim gun at wall on purpose.No sparkles of bullet hitting the wall.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124924&view=findpost&p=2044148" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=2044148</a>
Too off topic for the main point of this thread.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Take the skulk from the above video and halve the distance, maybe even closer. I also blasted a skulk with a shot gun point blank, plenty of blood splatter but no damage shown or done (lvl 3 weapons at the time). Frustration ensues.
Take the skulk from the above video and halve the distance, maybe even closer. I also blasted a skulk with a shot gun point blank, plenty of blood splatter but no damage shown or done (lvl 3 weapons at the time). Frustration ensues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In terms of issue 1: Your game takes a certain amount of time (usually about .2 seconds) to register your final bullet connecting with the skulk and the skulk dying. This is because you must send your firing data to the server, the server must conform that the hits have indeed impacted, and then return the data to you that the skulk is dead. The AR fires it's whole clip in about 3 seconds. If you assume the first 9 bullets hit without any near misses (unlikely) and then the server took an additional .2 seconds before it informed your client that it was dead, add another .2 seconds for the skulk model to properly rag doll in a way that is visible, and then another .2 seconds for normal human reaction speed... so your reaction from the time the skulk probably was ACTUALLY dead, was likely to be .6 seconds after you had fired the first 9 shots.
It's normal for you to perceive 20 bullets having been fired before a death is registered. Add the near misses and you're likely somewhere around 25, add a ping spike and you can easily bump up another 10 rounds fired.
32 is bad, but it's still within the realm of expected performance for a game engine with no issues at all in a particularly adverse scenario.
?
I think he's protesting that we shouldn't have to record video for them to fix the bug, or make demos, because we'll lose FPS while playing. Something about making up for the lack of "innate" skill by getting higher FPS. I kinda don't feel like anyone who's not playing competitively should complain about innate skill issues... and anyone who is should accept you're going to be required to record demos every match regardless, so don't bother complaining.
Which is wonderful in imaginary land, but you can't fix a problem when you don't know what's causing it.
Which is wonderful in imaginary land, but you can't fix a problem when you don't know what's causing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, that was my complaint.
demos are the only requirement for ENSL and don't have any hit on performance. it's irrelevant because demos are useless anyway. it's just silly to expect everyone to record all of their games at high enough quality and framerate to make them of any use because it really hinders performance in a game where every frame is precious to begin with.
Or just have a visual indication on the skulk and a certain sound. Crit sound from tf2 is great example.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz-NXi-j4TQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz-NXi-j4TQ</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz-NXi-j4TQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz-NXi-j4TQ</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that time in the vent in your video, i get that ###### all the time, what's worse is when the skulk goes through you
Thanks for the video! It's pretty clear that blood is drawn even though damage isn't registered for the first clip.
I'm a little confused on the last clip though - that first bite, when you initially drop on the marine, that looked like a legit miss. Am I misunderstanding it?
I'm a little confused on the last clip though - that first bite, when you initially drop on the marine, that looked like a legit miss. Am I misunderstanding it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From my perceptive it looked like a hit, but that's very much a grey area one. It's entirely possible it skimmed just outside the damage cone. When is damage calculated relative to the bite animation? Does it approximately match the frame where the teeth bite or is it immediate on mouse click?
I'm a little confused on the last clip though - that first bite, when you initially drop on the marine, that looked like a legit miss. Am I misunderstanding it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it looks like a miss but the glancing bite cones are really wide
<img src="http://imgur.com/4IOkm.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
first frame of the bite animation
<img src="http://imgur.com/7aMdg.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
a -25 glancing bite with the model to the very very far left
pretty rough estimations not exact but there's definitely lots of margin for error
additionally, it's hard to hear through the gunfire and music, but both the blood trickle and bite crunching noises play on the first bite
<!--quoteo(post=2044863:date=Dec 13 2012, 01:16 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 13 2012, 01:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From my perceptive it looked like a hit, but that's very much a grey area one. It's entirely possible it skimmed just outside the damage cone. When is damage calculated relative to the bite animation? Does it approximately match the frame where the teeth bite or is it immediate on mouse click?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
should be instant
I'm a little confused on the last clip though - that first bite, when you initially drop on the marine, that looked like a legit miss. Am I misunderstanding it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It clearly wasn't a direct hit but it should definitely fall in the 25 damage zone IMO. Bites like that are exactly why glancing hits were added.
Also, if I'm not mistaken it looked like the "took damage" yellow outline appears after that first bite?
- majority of "hit reg problems" are not actually hitreg problems but are attributed to the wonky animations of lifeforms including the flinch animations although that may be fixed in the current update, so "hitreg" might actually be okay in most servers but it's just impossible to aim at a skulk who is walking towards you in a straight line because his animation makes him go everywhere. I still think the flinch animations should be desynced from the model, you have to track at essentially light speed at 120fps in order to see that you are aiming at the animations even though the skulk is moving in a straight line.
- when damage is done sometimes no drawn damage is shown (blood but no text)
- drawn damage is not accurate is it does not represent the total damage of the shots but only the damage leading up to the death of the lifeform, this is especially true with shotguns. Scrolling text is also annoying and gets in the way of trying to decipher what damage you actually did and there is no way to make decisions from it because of that.
- lower framerates could lead to worse hitreg, but it's most likely because your framerate is not with your rate of fire so it may look like you are tracking perfectly where no damage is done
- shotguns requires pixel-perfect aim in most cases to consistently 1-shot because of how spread works
- demo recording doesn't well and this hinders any progress into trying to find out hitreg problems
- shotguns are the most showing of hitreg problems because there can be perfect shots that do 0 damage
I think that main thing people misunderstand when trying to analyze hit reg from a recorded video or demo, is that the models are not being represented correctly in the first place. Without debug commands from the devs, that should be interactive features of a demo that show hitbox and model positioning, these videos only prove one thing ... lag compensation on the spark engine is not performing as intended.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- shotguns are the most showing of hitreg problems because there can be perfect shots that do 0 damage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Today I did 80 dmg draw damage to a vanilla skulk with my vanilla marine.
I asked about his health and he said it was around 50.
Something is not right there. Only 10 hp should remain.
Also the flinching animation is still broken. You still have to aim to the base of harvesters or whips to inflict "maximum" damage.
about the shotgun: just yes
I shot through an onos arse from the side. or a sneaking skulk right infront of my feet (just 50 dmg). And as you know sneaking skulks are darn slow.
Also, if I'm not mistaken it looked like the "took damage" yellow outline appears after that first bite?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's a really good observation, I didn't notice that. I guess that is also client-side as well.
<!--quoteo(post=2045096:date=Dec 13 2012, 12:19 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Dec 13 2012, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- majority of "hit reg problems" are not actually hitreg problems but are attributed to the wonky animations of lifeforms<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
up until B233 I would have agreed with you, but I'm experiencing these issues almost every single encounter now, unrelated to the flinching animations.
<!--quoteo(post=2045113:date=Dec 13 2012, 12:49 PM:name=NSDigi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NSDigi @ Dec 13 2012, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045113"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->@ Gliss and others ...
I think that main thing people misunderstand when trying to analyze hit reg from a recorded video or demo, is that the models are not being represented correctly in the first place. Without debug commands from the devs, that should be interactive features of a demo that show hitbox and model positioning, these videos only prove one thing ... lag compensation on the spark engine is not performing as intended.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
demo recording does not function properly. as I said earlier, until a proper demo system is implemented this is the best we can do.
<!--quoteo(post=2045123:date=Dec 13 2012, 01:07 PM:name=Sehzade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sehzade @ Dec 13 2012, 01:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also the flinching animation is still broken. You still have to aim to the base of harvesters or whips to inflict "maximum" damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this should be fixed in B233?
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->Even though your exaggerating the strait line situation, I agree with you 100% about the animations, <b>especially</b> the skulks! There have been countless times where a skulk was making <i>real simple</i> movements trying to attack me, but the terrain and skulk movement physics throws and spins the model all over the place, making it next to impossible to predict and shoot the skulk. On top of the lag compensation, this makes for situations where I literally give up and take out my knife ...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->