Help us reproduce the hit-reg problem
Flayra
Game Director, Unknown Worlds EntertainmentSan Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
Game Director, Unknown Worlds EntertainmentSan Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
<div class="IPBDescription">Guidelines for submitting videos and demos</div>Hey everyone,
We're trying to determine what hit-reg problem there may be in the game. We've been getting reports about it, but have been unable to see a video that really shows a problem that we can fix. As is normally the case with fixing bugs, once you have it reproducible, it's dead (slight exaggeration, but not much).
One reasons for this is because the videos we've seen are YouTube: we need to be able to go through the video frame by frame, which YouTube doesn't support. Another way that would be helpful is for us to have a demo recording showing the bug.
From the main menu, bring up the menu:
<b>record <filename></b>
then connect to a server or start a game
When you're done recording, type into the console:
<b>stop</b>
You can then play the demo back, from the main menu, type:
<b>play <filename></b>
While playing back demos, you can
<b>p</b> - profile
<b>r</b> - rstats
<b>space</b> - toggle between natural speed and play as fast as possible (useful for scrubbing)
<b>esc</b> - stops demo playback
So if you could either reproduce the problem with a video and send us a link to it (not a YouTube link), or make a demo (preferred), that would help us tremendously. We should be able to diagnose and/or fix the problem quite quickly once we have that.
Thanks for your help!
We're trying to determine what hit-reg problem there may be in the game. We've been getting reports about it, but have been unable to see a video that really shows a problem that we can fix. As is normally the case with fixing bugs, once you have it reproducible, it's dead (slight exaggeration, but not much).
One reasons for this is because the videos we've seen are YouTube: we need to be able to go through the video frame by frame, which YouTube doesn't support. Another way that would be helpful is for us to have a demo recording showing the bug.
From the main menu, bring up the menu:
<b>record <filename></b>
then connect to a server or start a game
When you're done recording, type into the console:
<b>stop</b>
You can then play the demo back, from the main menu, type:
<b>play <filename></b>
While playing back demos, you can
<b>p</b> - profile
<b>r</b> - rstats
<b>space</b> - toggle between natural speed and play as fast as possible (useful for scrubbing)
<b>esc</b> - stops demo playback
So if you could either reproduce the problem with a video and send us a link to it (not a YouTube link), or make a demo (preferred), that would help us tremendously. We should be able to diagnose and/or fix the problem quite quickly once we have that.
Thanks for your help!
Comments
Do you mean "game frames" or "video frames"? You can look at a YouTube video frame by frame (the picture type of frame), you just need to download it. I'm sure there are many ways, this works for me.
<a href="https://userscripts.org/scripts/show/13333" target="_blank">https://userscripts.org/scripts/show/13333</a>
and then it all makes sense
anyway, videos can be slowed down in just about any video editor before uploading to youtube.....
It works in our development build (233), but I'll check to see if it is broken in 232.
It feels like a delay after firing a shot, hence the reasoning for the "shooting ahead" aspect.
It feels like a delay after firing a shot, hence the reasoning for the "shooting ahead" aspect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no shooting ahead. Damage is just delayed because the netcode acts with a high interp, so it always feels like you have 100 ping + the ping you get to the server. This means skulks will kill you for what seems like a second before they actually can and you will get destroyed around corners. Almost 100% chance to lose your lerk against good players because as soon as you see them they can put 2 shotgun shots into you. This also means that you are always wasting ammo on a skulk that's already dead. Should only take 10 bullets with w0.
<a href="http://youtu.be/rkSJuIdtvjQ" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/rkSJuIdtvjQ</a>
I can try to record demos, but as there is no fast-forward feature, a shot like this can happen 30 minutes into a demo, and I'm not keen on waiting around for that. we need a better replay system before we can try to get this data. at the moment, you can't even play someone else's demos if they were recorded in a different resolution, the playback speed is dependent on your framerate, and there's no "jump-to" feature or fastforward.
if you want the files of these I can try to find them, but it looks like there is a frame-by-frame script someone posted above.
<a href="http://youtu.be/rkSJuIdtvjQ" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/rkSJuIdtvjQ</a>
I can try to record demos, but as there is no fast-forward feature, a shot like this can happen 30 minutes into a demo, and I'm not keen on waiting around for that. we need a better replay system before we can try to get this data. at the moment, you can't even play someone else's demos if they were recorded in a different resolution, the playback speed is dependent on your framerate, and there's no "jump-to" feature or fastforward.
if you want the files of these I can try to find them, but it looks like there is a frame-by-frame script someone posted above.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That second video is pretty right on the money. No dmg numbers even pop up. Did the fade die a few seconds later?
no numbers = no damage
blood is client-side. Will try to record a demo of me playing on some servers I know, my hitregistry there is less than 50% despite them being east coast like me.
It feels like a delay after firing a shot, hence the reasoning for the "shooting ahead" aspect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would be very normal for a game that wasn't performing server side interpolation. I'm pretty sure that's not the case with NS2 though. Possibly the server your playing on has turned their server side interp down for some reason? You will have this effect naturally if your ping gets high enough as well.
if the fade died later it would be an issue related to latency, not hit registry. unfortunately in both of these cases I'm not positive if the lifeform took any damage or not, the only thing I know is that the combat text did not appear.
<!--quoteo(post=2039471:date=Dec 3 2012, 02:14 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Dec 3 2012, 02:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no numbers = no damage
blood is client-side. Will try to record a demo of me playing on some servers I know, my hitregistry there is less than 50% despite them being east coast like me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes and no - it's possible for the packet that reports the damage numbers to get "lost" as they aren't prioritized. so you can cause damage and not see damage numbers if your connection is poor.
the damage numbers don't seem very reliable though. with the same w0 rifle, it reports -70 or -100 to kill a single Skulk. I'm quite certain it's not due to regeneration or anything like that, either.
one more: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQXEqcMxPBE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQXEqcMxPBE</a> this one is especially odd because the combat text waits to update, I kill one Skulk, I hit the second one for -10, and then the second shot pulls up a -100.
honestly if the combat text stopped adding up and instead displayed -10 -10 -10 each time or if it had a counter on the HUD like TF2 it would be <i>much</i> easier to figure this stuff out.
Going into Vegas to make videos now!
this is a pretty good idea, the flinch animations have always been a source of pain while not adding very much aesthetically. most of them seem like they play at 3-4x the speed they're supposed to.
just checked, fast forward using space does not work.
Can't even do full damage to the moving part of the harvester with a rifle.
It feels like a delay after firing a shot, hence the reasoning for the "shooting ahead" aspect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The shotgun is the opposite though, this thing has to be shot on the edge of the model behind the target if it is moving across your screen. If you shoot at the actual model there is a higher chance you only do half damage
Can't even do full damage to the moving part of the harvester with a rifle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know, I actually like them there. What would be the alternative, a solid block of a model that isn't even animated?
It's actually kind of brilliant that the model REACTS when you shoot it, and does it so well that you miss your shots if it moves out of your crosshairs. If you want to hit all your shots, then aim at the base of the whip or harvester. The reactions of the alien structures are what make them seem alive.
It's not a true fast forward key, that's why.
Lack of inherent demo controls, including something as simple as "Pause" makes demo viewing tedious. I highly recommend NS2, for both troubleshooting and viewer enjoyment, develop a simple, effective demo system of "Play/Pause" "Fast forward: 2x, 4x, 8x" "Rewind: 2x, 4x, 8x" and allow console to be accessed / changed while in demo. They also need to stop recording on map changes, or at least stop and re-record with an appended file name. You also need to be able to record anytime from in game.
I don't know if it's pretty much a monumental task because of <b>how</b> demo recording is inherently coded into your engine, or if it's a simple matter of getting some commands together and making sure they work. Obviously that would reasonably impact any decision.
As a game that is marketing itself to strong entertainment value for spectators (both pub and competitive)... combined with an extremely moddable game, you should discuss reinvesting time into a better demo interface. It'll help you immensely as developers in pinpointing user side problems, it'll develop a lot of community entertainment and it'll forward your e-sport aspects. The best engine to emulate would be the HL1/HL2 which I know you're very familiar with.
Gliss if you have a definitely shot, or instance you can remember, I'll make the video for you. I'm doing some avi/demo stuff anyways, so sitting through a long demo isn't really a concern of mine. Edit: Hit me up on Steam.
It's actually kind of brilliant that the model REACTS when you shoot it, and does it so well that you miss your shots if it moves out of your crosshairs. If you want to hit all your shots, then aim at the base of the whip or harvester. The reactions of the alien structures are what make them seem alive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
:(
The reaction is cool for realism but it should be downtoned if it's effecting hit registration.
It's actually kind of brilliant that the model REACTS when you shoot it, and does it so well that you miss your shots if it moves out of your crosshairs. If you want to hit all your shots, then aim at the base of the whip or harvester. The reactions of the alien structures are what make them seem alive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no issues with the flinch animations conceptually. most games have them, actually.
the problem with NS2's is that the hitboxes do not align with the flinch animations <i>at all</i>. harvesters are the most obvious culprit (just try to shoot the orange "bulb" with a shotgun, every other shot will miss), but it wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination to assume that lifeforms are affected as well.
Omar - thanks for the offer, I'll try to record more often.
The reaction is cool for realism but it should be downtoned if it's effecting hit registration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks look like they are jiggling around like they are made of jello, harvesters move around at incredible speed, and lerks head nod when shot? I don't see the realism here.... At the very least please keep the hitboxes the same all the time, desync them from flinch animations. This will be a huge change and almost a large buff to marines but it has to be done.
The flinch animations used to be really badly sync'd a long time ago though. They're still wrong, but not many people realized it was this bad in the 220's and before...
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vKKUSQBKCPk"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vKKUSQBKCPk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
The responsible thing to do would just have Brian recompile the player models by just adjusting the end frame of the intensity animation so that flinching was still in, but very slight model movement until the engine's animation issues are resolved.
Errm, no, the hitbox should *always* match the visual model, as closely as is technically possible. Players should be shooting at where the structure or creature appears to be, not shooting at empty space where the hitbox is.
That would be unintuitive. Because of how the model jiggles around when hit it would mean that skulks that are standing still or running in a straight line would require you to flick around to hit them, which is really dumb if you ask me. No matter how much a model twitches if something is standing still or moving in a straight line you should expect to aim as such. Currently that is not so, syncing it even closer would not only create more hitreg issues but also would make it harder to hit aliens that aren't moving around "properly".