<!--quoteo(post=2037427:date=Nov 29 2012, 03:43 PM:name=lumina)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lumina @ Nov 29 2012, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037427"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, explain this complex action then. I am interested in hearing how turning your mouse is really this complex task that takes years to perfect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://youtu.be/AJDtEq1cahk" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/AJDtEq1cahk</a>
Boot up CS, go to any of the locations you recognize in this video, do the jump that that jumper is doing.
What bhopping is is just chaining those long jump mechanics for multiple jumps one immediately after the other.
The skill is ENTIRELY in the mouse movement, it must be done precisely and at a specific speed for maximum acceleration gain. You must hold the strafe key mid air that corresponds with the direction your mouse is moving. You must transition away from holding the forward key at a precise time. If you mess up any of these things you rapidly lose speed. The part where you bounce off the ground is very very basic in comparison to maximizing your speed gain and controlling your direction while you do it.
It takes 5 minutes to get used to being able to bounce repetitively similar to how you could accelerate in Half Life 2, it takes a good couple weeks of practicing a couple hours a day to get pretty good at getting up speed and holding it with bunnyhopping. It takes years of practice to be able to do many of the jumps in that CS video I linked you, and all of these things come down to utilization of the same basic movement physics, where you gain air speed through what was originally an error in the air control mechanics from a very old game engine. An error that was known about and could have been eliminated, but was intentionally brought over to the Half Life generation of gaming, for the record. And brought over to the HL2 generation as well (although valve made many tweaks for the different games they built in source in terms of movement mechanics).
Do you legitimately want to know how bunnyhopping is done in detail now? Or is this enough to convince you it's a maneuver that requires a huge amount of skill, and the skill intense parts cannot be scripted usefully?
<!--quoteo(post=2037578:date=Nov 29 2012, 05:40 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Nov 29 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037578"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good thinking. If the wall mechanic stays, props could be added in walless areas to help it out, i just truly hate that built in constraint.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it is something that has come up several times on these forums and I really like it personally. It frees the mechanic up a tad from being mapper dependent. Props in open areas should be the norm anyway as you need cover for skulks lest it become a shooting gallery.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lying about winning money at lans is not going to impress anyone on these forums. Of course NS1 was not played competitively at lans, it was a tiny scene because it was a mod. I wasn't comparing NS2 to NS1. You would expect this game to have a decent scene shortly after release that consisted of more than just the NS1/beta players. Nobody at your level of ignorance will *ever* be good enough at a video game to make money playing one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe for a while CAL:CS would ban players for bunnyhopping during matches. I'm not sure if that's still the case, but it doesn't entirely surprise me that low level CS clanners are biased against bunnyhopping.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6. What do you think of the general HL exploits still evident in NS (for example bunnyhopping) and do you think they should be kept in the game?
This is a difficult topic to discuss because everyone has a different definition of what an exploit is. <b>Bunnyhopping is not an exploit, it is part of the game by design</b> and will continue to be for the lifetime of NS on the Half-Life engine. Although no decisions have been made on source player movement, I personally would like to see some skill based movement acceleration for skulks implemented in a way that is easier to learn and less FPS dependent. We have fixed a number of exploits in 3.2, but mainly NS specific exploits such as silent structure placement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why do you guys bother arguing about this? every thread is exactly the same. people who don't understand bunnyhopping (for the most part) say stupid stuff, they get corrected and stubbornly continue to stay stupid stuff, while flayra continues working on the alien commander or whatever feature he thinks is awesome. i cannot comprehend how you guys aren't jaded as hell at this point and don't just want to move on with your lives.
unless you don't know, which is fine. for the record, bunnyhopping will never ever ever (getting back together) be in ns2. i want it as much as the next guy, but i also want non-terrible performance, better movement, and a return to more a-symmetrical gameplay. let's just accept the fact that first person shooters (as we know them) are basically dead and we have to live with the CoD generation.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhopping is not an exploit, it is part of the game by design and will continue to be <b>for the lifetime of NS on the Half-Life engine</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Here, I fixed it.
Oh can we also have it back where different fps levels like 110 ect give us different movement and shooting rates. This way we can decide how much damage vs speed we would like to have just like NS1.
Wall strafing to replace the removed skulk wall jumping would be nice!
<!--quoteo(post=2037664:date=Nov 30 2012, 01:05 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Nov 30 2012, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here, I fixed it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That quote is directed to all people who use "LOL BHOP WAS AN ENGINE EXPLOIT IN NS1. SO NO BHOP IN NS2" arguement because people seem to be against bhop due to these 3 points
1. looks stupid 2. unintuitive 3. LOL EXPLOIT
others have explained well enough about first 2 points, mine is for the last.
But who cares now? We aren't going to see bhop implemented in NS2 anyways. We are wasting our time and internet bits.
<!--quoteo(post=2037561:date=Nov 29 2012, 04:07 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Nov 29 2012, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037561"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What i would like to see from a Skill based movement:
- Not restricted to using walls only but any surface you can bounce off of. - A method of maintaining/increasing your speed divorced from surface choice. (Meaning not having to always restart from a wall to gain speed again.) This should also be a pattern of some sort to be highly predictable to allow for a downside of speed. - allow speeds to have a generous threshold to be advantageous in maintaining and increasing vanilla speed. If you only go 1 point faster than default what is the point. - limit it to skulks and gorges. Possibly fades. - the method should be more than just where you start from or/and jump timings to allow for depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
very well put. quoted to bump so it gets some due attention/discussion.
<!--quoteo(post=2037505:date=Nov 29 2012, 11:44 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 29 2012, 11:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i'd like to see crouch-jumping implemented for skulks, wherein crouching slows your movement but pressing jump while crouching gives you a speed boost with very little air control ala old-style walljump, with more speed awarded for timing the crouch correctly (i.e. you'd have like a 1s window like the old energy storage mechanism).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not a bad idea, there was a map in ns1 where you could get some jetpacks that worked like that, was quite fun.
I also agree with RisingSun, a mechanic that work on all surface would be much better than wall only. It's more consistent, simpler, it has less rules.
For the same reasons, consistency and simplicity, it would be ideal if the movement mechanics are shared by all classes. For example gaining speed while falling is an effect of gravity and should apply to everybody, even if you can tweak the numbers associated with it (mass, air control, etc.) so that it's not really useful on some classes (marines).
<!--quoteo(post=2037757:date=Nov 30 2012, 03:10 AM:name=wulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wulf @ Nov 30 2012, 03:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> What i would like to see from a Skill based movement:
- Not restricted to using walls only but any surface you can bounce off of. - A method of maintaining/increasing your speed divorced from surface choice. (Meaning not having to always restart from a wall to gain speed again.) This should also be a pattern of some sort to be highly predictable to allow for a downside of speed. - allow speeds to have a generous threshold to be advantageous in maintaining and increasing vanilla speed. If you only go 1 point faster than default what is the point. - limit it to skulks and gorges. Possibly fades. - the method should be more than just where you start from or/and jump timings to allow for depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> very well put. quoted to bump so it gets some due attention/discussion. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, some good ideas in there. To the rest of you pointlessly arguing about scripts or validity of some trivial point, or how much money you've won at various tournaments: STOP IT. STOP IT NOW. You are being utterly pointless and not in the least big constructive. I've been trying to drag this topic back on track now for what seems like months, because I care about getting a system that satisfies the majority. I believe such a system can be designed and implemented, and ideas like those above are a good start to us finding a solution which could work.
TL;DR: STOP ARGUING and start thinking of ways to solve the problem. Seriously, this bickering from both sides is totally unwarranted and out of control. STOP IT.
<!--quoteo(post=2037801:date=Nov 30 2012, 11:08 AM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Nov 30 2012, 11:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037801"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I care about getting a system that satisfies the majority.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Majority of what?
They say there's no such thing as a stupid question, but I think we might have found one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> WASD with a jump button "satisfies" the majority. I don't think "satisfies" should be the goal. I think depth and excellence of game play design should be the goal.
PS2 is available now for all who don't want to spend time learning any skills required to succeed. Just jump in and be the best immediately.
I'd love to see bhop in NS2 but these days it should still be a very small edge for those that master it, to the point where if you haven't basically perfected it than there's a risk you'll put yourself at a disadvantage. The gap between pub and pug/comp gameplay has to remain as small as possible without severely limiting pug/comp gameplay. And like everything in NS2 atm, it needs a proper tutorial/practice mode.
<!--quoteo(post=2037561:date=Nov 29 2012, 08:07 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Nov 29 2012, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037561"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- allow speeds to have a generous threshold to be advantageous in maintaining and increasing vanilla speed. If you only go 1 point faster than default what is the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any advantage is always worth it no matter how small. There's always someone willing to put the time in and master a skill no matter how hard it seems to others, and if those other players aren't willing to put forth the same effort than they deserve to lose to the player/team that did make the effort. Think of players that can split 30+ marines almost individually against a baneling bust in SC2 in under 2s, there's like 3-5 terrans in the world that can do it effectively, and that's a huge part of the reason why they're unquestionably considered the best... it's a ridiculously hard skill to master that is basically only useful in incredibly rare and spontaneous situations, and most can get by without it 99% of the time.
Can you please stop spamming your ignorance now? Thanks.
You realize that NS2 currently has a lot more air control than NS1 ever had, right? That's why walljumping in NS2 is so easy to perform, and so ridiculously effective in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would seem you are the only one here that is being arrogant. Any mechanic that increases combat efficiency should not be provided passively but rather be upgraded then purchased VIA this other core mechanic called resources. Not sure why everyone here is advocating for a aspect of the game that is fine, but defeats the other core principal of the game that we refer to as RTS. If a feature is added that increases combat efficiency it should have to be purchased or it will create a game that's balancing is no longer based around tactics and counters but rather straight FPS game play.
The base movement for all classes in the game is fine as is. UWE needs to add more depth VIA upgradable mechanics that can be obtained VIA RTS side of the game. Other wise simply increase skulk movement and leap range.
<!--quoteo(post=2038123:date=Nov 30 2012, 06:34 PM:name=Lastdon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lastdon @ Nov 30 2012, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would seem you are the only one here that is being arrogant. Any mechanic that increases combat efficiency should not be provided passively but rather be upgraded then purchased VIA this other core mechanic called resources. Not sure why everyone here is advocating for a aspect of the game that is fine, but defeats the other core principal of the game that we refer to as RTS. If a feature is added that increases combat efficiency it should have to be purchased or it will create a game that's balancing is no longer based around tactics and counters but rather straight FPS game play.
The base movement for all classes in the game is fine as is. UWE needs to add more depth VIA upgradable mechanics that can be obtained VIA RTS side of the game. Other wise simply increase skulk movement and leap range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> would you have alien commanders required to research bite as well rofl
<!--quoteo(post=2038123:date=Nov 30 2012, 05:34 PM:name=Lastdon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lastdon @ Nov 30 2012, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would seem you are the only one here that is being arrogant. Any mechanic that increases combat efficiency should not be provided passively but rather be upgraded then purchased VIA this other core mechanic called resources. Not sure why everyone here is advocating for a aspect of the game that is fine, but defeats the other core principal of the game that we refer to as RTS. If a feature is added that increases combat efficiency it should have to be purchased or it will create a game that's balancing is no longer based around tactics and counters but rather straight FPS game play.
The base movement for all classes in the game is fine as is. UWE needs to add more depth VIA upgradable mechanics that can be obtained VIA RTS side of the game. Other wise simply increase skulk movement and leap range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 is a FPS first, then a RTS. Movement is an FPSs bread and butter and needs to be looked at again.
<!--quoteo(post=2038138:date=Nov 30 2012, 06:09 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Nov 30 2012, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is a FPS first, then a RTS. Movement is an FPSs bread and butter and needs to be looked at again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So are you telling me that NS 2 has no improved movement. For example, leap, blink, shadowstep so on. The base movement in the game is fine.
NS2 current problems are really bad performance, bland game play, limited strategies due to the shady rework of NS.
EX.. cloak in NS 1 had limits due to motion tracking. Heavy armors were countered by Onos, Onos were countered by JP's.
Another hugs disconnect was the removal of the HMG which in terms is why the Onos is so hard to balance. For some reason people keeping ignoring these problems and say this is NS 2, disregarding the fact that 80% of the game play was just taken straight from NS 1 with out considering its purpose and how each mechanic had a sort of equilibrium that took years to mature.
Skill based movement is <!--fonto:Franklin Gothic Medium--><span style="font-family:Franklin Gothic Medium"><!--/fonto--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><i><b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->awesome<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->. </argument>
<!--quoteo(post=2038228:date=Dec 1 2012, 03:39 PM:name=Lastdon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lastdon @ Dec 1 2012, 03:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The base movement in the game is fine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> im sorry. so much wrong with this statement.
Even judging it on it's own merits, its pretty lacklustre. Unpredictable and bad fall acceleration, bad animations, bad collisions, huge stepsize, rock climbing, jump not responding because you've microdisconnected from the floor due to small bumps etc.
And this is without even considering the need to scale movement with marine aim.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->jump not responding because you've microdisconnected from the floor due to small bumps etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You say that in a "I want bhop back" thread? Seems you think it is skillful to spam jump via skript or mousewheel whilelearning when to press jump is not.
<!--quoteo(post=2038258:date=Dec 1 2012, 06:14 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Dec 1 2012, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038258"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You say that in a "I want bhop back" thread? Seems you think it is skillful to spam jump via skript or mousewheel whilelearning when to press jump is not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> has all sense of rationality fled you?
<b>Person A:</b> Base movement is fine. <b>Person B:</b> No it is not, here are its problems <i>even without considering its inability to scale with marine aim properly (the skill-based part)</i>. Jump is not 100% responsive due to a problem totally unrelated to script use. <b>'Mentally challenged' person C:</b> Scriptzor hackzor! hubbadubba oogabooga! You be thinking sun full of hotdogs! I be think banana taste better!
Really no point in discussing with you. If you are not able to recognize this blatent bull###### you have been spewing no one can help you. Posting stupid "hubbadubba oogabooga" stuff is all you can do. You are just sour.
<!--quoteo(post=2038123:date=Nov 30 2012, 06:34 PM:name=Lastdon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lastdon @ Nov 30 2012, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would seem you are the only one here that is being arrogant. Any mechanic that increases combat efficiency should not be provided passively but rather be upgraded then purchased VIA this other core mechanic called resources. Not sure why everyone here is advocating for a aspect of the game that is fine, but defeats the other core principal of the game that we refer to as RTS. If a feature is added that increases combat efficiency it should have to be purchased or it will create a game that's balancing is no longer based around tactics and counters but rather straight FPS game play.
The base movement for all classes in the game is fine as is. UWE needs to add more depth VIA upgradable mechanics that can be obtained VIA RTS side of the game. Other wise simply increase skulk movement and leap range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can't believe you even said that. From a design perspective there's absolutely no reason to have any given aspect of a game "upgradable" just for shids and giggles. You don't upgrade jumping up cliffs as reapers in SC2, you don't upgrade hardened shield as immortals. If you want something to be an upgradable, or there's some reason why delaying it until later in the game makes sense, that's fine, but you don't have to have everything as an upgrade just because.
This is especially true of a skill based movement mechanic. Why should you have to upgrade the ability that is the soul thing that pushes the skill ceiling up? Just so that everyone in the game is that much more bored until the upgrade comes into effect? That sounds incredibly dumb!
Comments
<a href="http://youtu.be/AJDtEq1cahk" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/AJDtEq1cahk</a>
Boot up CS, go to any of the locations you recognize in this video, do the jump that that jumper is doing.
What bhopping is is just chaining those long jump mechanics for multiple jumps one immediately after the other.
The skill is ENTIRELY in the mouse movement, it must be done precisely and at a specific speed for maximum acceleration gain. You must hold the strafe key mid air that corresponds with the direction your mouse is moving. You must transition away from holding the forward key at a precise time. If you mess up any of these things you rapidly lose speed. The part where you bounce off the ground is very very basic in comparison to maximizing your speed gain and controlling your direction while you do it.
It takes 5 minutes to get used to being able to bounce repetitively similar to how you could accelerate in Half Life 2, it takes a good couple weeks of practicing a couple hours a day to get pretty good at getting up speed and holding it with bunnyhopping. It takes years of practice to be able to do many of the jumps in that CS video I linked you, and all of these things come down to utilization of the same basic movement physics, where you gain air speed through what was originally an error in the air control mechanics from a very old game engine. An error that was known about and could have been eliminated, but was intentionally brought over to the Half Life generation of gaming, for the record. And brought over to the HL2 generation as well (although valve made many tweaks for the different games they built in source in terms of movement mechanics).
Do you legitimately want to know how bunnyhopping is done in detail now? Or is this enough to convince you it's a maneuver that requires a huge amount of skill, and the skill intense parts cannot be scripted usefully?
Yeah, it is something that has come up several times on these forums and I really like it personally. It frees the mechanic up a tad from being mapper dependent. Props in open areas should be the norm anyway as you need cover for skulks lest it become a shooting gallery.
Nobody at your level of ignorance will *ever* be good enough at a video game to make money playing one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.legit-proof.com/search/?method=guid&query=STEAM_0%3A0%3A202018" target="_blank">http://www.legit-proof.com/search/?method=..._0%3A0%3A202018</a>
He could have won $10 at a lan in Nebraska with four teams.
<a href="http://www.legit-proof.com/search/?method=guid&query=STEAM_0%3A1%3A17680682" target="_blank">http://www.legit-proof.com/search/?method=...%3A1%3A17680682</a>
<a href="http://play.esea.net/users/382485?tab=history" target="_blank">http://play.esea.net/users/382485?tab=history</a>
Does not show CEVO or TWL for me either, even after completing several seasons of both under the same steam id.
<a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20060804071925/http://nsplayer.net/" target="_blank">http://web.archive.org/web/20060804071925/...//nsplayer.net/</a>
From "Interview with puzl"
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6. What do you think of the general HL exploits still evident in NS (for example bunnyhopping) and do you think they should be kept in the game?
This is a difficult topic to discuss because everyone has a different definition of what an exploit is. <b>Bunnyhopping is not an exploit, it is part of the game by design</b> and will continue to be for the lifetime of NS on the Half-Life engine. Although no decisions have been made on source player movement, I personally would like to see some skill based movement acceleration for skulks implemented in a way that is easier to learn and less FPS dependent. We have fixed a number of exploits in 3.2, but mainly NS specific exploits such as silent structure placement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
unless you don't know, which is fine. for the record, bunnyhopping will never ever ever (getting back together) be in ns2. i want it as much as the next guy, but i also want non-terrible performance, better movement, and a return to more a-symmetrical gameplay. let's just accept the fact that first person shooters (as we know them) are basically dead and we have to live with the CoD generation.
Here, I fixed it.
Wall strafing to replace the removed skulk wall jumping would be nice!
no
That quote is directed to all people who use "LOL BHOP WAS AN ENGINE EXPLOIT IN NS1. SO NO BHOP IN NS2" arguement
because people seem to be against bhop due to these 3 points
1. looks stupid
2. unintuitive
3. LOL EXPLOIT
others have explained well enough about first 2 points, mine is for the last.
But who cares now? We aren't going to see bhop implemented in NS2 anyways.
We are wasting our time and internet bits.
- Not restricted to using walls only but any surface you can bounce off of.
- A method of maintaining/increasing your speed divorced from surface choice. (Meaning not having to always restart from a wall to gain speed again.) This should also be a pattern of some sort to be highly predictable to allow for a downside of speed.
- allow speeds to have a generous threshold to be advantageous in maintaining and increasing vanilla speed. If you only go 1 point faster than default what is the point.
- limit it to skulks and gorges. Possibly fades.
- the method should be more than just where you start from or/and jump timings to allow for depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
very well put. quoted to bump so it gets some due attention/discussion.
That's not a bad idea, there was a map in ns1 where you could get some jetpacks that worked like that, was quite fun.
I also agree with RisingSun, a mechanic that work on all surface would be much better than wall only. It's more consistent, simpler, it has less rules.
For the same reasons, consistency and simplicity, it would be ideal if the movement mechanics are shared by all classes. For example gaining speed while falling is an effect of gravity and should apply to everybody,
even if you can tweak the numbers associated with it (mass, air control, etc.) so that it's not really useful on some classes (marines).
What i would like to see from a Skill based movement:
- Not restricted to using walls only but any surface you can bounce off of.
- A method of maintaining/increasing your speed divorced from surface choice. (Meaning not having to always restart from a wall to gain speed again.) This should also be a pattern of some sort to be highly predictable to allow for a downside of speed.
- allow speeds to have a generous threshold to be advantageous in maintaining and increasing vanilla speed. If you only go 1 point faster than default what is the point.
- limit it to skulks and gorges. Possibly fades.
- the method should be more than just where you start from or/and jump timings to allow for depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
very well put. quoted to bump so it gets some due attention/discussion.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, some good ideas in there. To the rest of you pointlessly arguing about scripts or validity of some trivial point, or how much money you've won at various tournaments: STOP IT. STOP IT NOW. You are being utterly pointless and not in the least big constructive. I've been trying to drag this topic back on track now for what seems like months, because I care about getting a system that satisfies the majority. I believe such a system can be designed and implemented, and ideas like those above are a good start to us finding a solution which could work.
TL;DR: STOP ARGUING and start thinking of ways to solve the problem. Seriously, this bickering from both sides is totally unwarranted and out of control. STOP IT.
Majority of what?
Cabbages.
They say there's no such thing as a stupid question, but I think we might have found one.
They say there's no such thing as a stupid question, but I think we might have found one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WASD with a jump button "satisfies" the majority. I don't think "satisfies" should be the goal. I think depth and excellence of game play design should be the goal.
I'd love to see bhop in NS2 but these days it should still be a very small edge for those that master it, to the point where if you haven't basically perfected it than there's a risk you'll put yourself at a disadvantage. The gap between pub and pug/comp gameplay has to remain as small as possible without severely limiting pug/comp gameplay. And like everything in NS2 atm, it needs a proper tutorial/practice mode.
<!--quoteo(post=2037561:date=Nov 29 2012, 08:07 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Nov 29 2012, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037561"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- allow speeds to have a generous threshold to be advantageous in maintaining and increasing vanilla speed. If you only go 1 point faster than default what is the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any advantage is always worth it no matter how small. There's always someone willing to put the time in and master a skill no matter how hard it seems to others, and if those other players aren't willing to put forth the same effort than they deserve to lose to the player/team that did make the effort. Think of players that can split 30+ marines almost individually against a baneling bust in SC2 in under 2s, there's like 3-5 terrans in the world that can do it effectively, and that's a huge part of the reason why they're unquestionably considered the best... it's a ridiculously hard skill to master that is basically only useful in incredibly rare and spontaneous situations, and most can get by without it 99% of the time.
Can you please stop spamming your ignorance now? Thanks.
You realize that NS2 currently has a lot more air control than NS1 ever had, right? That's why walljumping in NS2 is so easy to perform, and so ridiculously effective in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would seem you are the only one here that is being arrogant. Any mechanic that increases combat efficiency should not be provided passively but rather be upgraded then purchased VIA this other core mechanic called resources. Not sure why everyone here is advocating for a aspect of the game that is fine, but defeats the other core principal of the game that we refer to as RTS. If a feature is added that increases combat efficiency it should have to be purchased or it will create a game that's balancing is no longer based around tactics and counters but rather straight FPS game play.
The base movement for all classes in the game is fine as is. UWE needs to add more depth VIA upgradable mechanics that can be obtained VIA RTS side of the game. Other wise simply increase skulk movement and leap range.
The base movement for all classes in the game is fine as is. UWE needs to add more depth VIA upgradable mechanics that can be obtained VIA RTS side of the game. Other wise simply increase skulk movement and leap range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
would you have alien commanders required to research bite as well rofl
The base movement for all classes in the game is fine as is. UWE needs to add more depth VIA upgradable mechanics that can be obtained VIA RTS side of the game. Other wise simply increase skulk movement and leap range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 is a FPS first, then a RTS. Movement is an FPSs bread and butter and needs to be looked at again.
So are you telling me that NS 2 has no improved movement. For example, leap, blink, shadowstep so on. The base movement in the game is fine.
NS2 current problems are really bad performance, bland game play, limited strategies due to the shady rework of NS.
EX.. cloak in NS 1 had limits due to motion tracking. Heavy armors were countered by Onos, Onos were countered by JP's.
Another hugs disconnect was the removal of the HMG which in terms is why the Onos is so hard to balance. For some reason people keeping ignoring these problems and say this is NS 2, disregarding the fact that 80% of the game play was just taken straight from NS 1 with out considering its purpose and how each mechanic had a sort of equilibrium that took years to mature.
</argument>
im sorry. so much wrong with this statement.
Even judging it on it's own merits, its pretty lacklustre. Unpredictable and bad fall acceleration, bad animations, bad collisions, huge stepsize, rock climbing, jump not responding because you've microdisconnected from the floor due to small bumps etc.
And this is without even considering the need to scale movement with marine aim.
You say that in a "I want bhop back" thread? Seems you think it is skillful to spam jump via skript or mousewheel whilelearning when to press jump is not.
MY IMMERSION ;_;
STOP HAVING FUN GUYS THESE MARINES ARE NOT BEING REALISTIC ;_;
has all sense of rationality fled you?
<b>Person A:</b> Base movement is fine.
<b>Person B:</b> No it is not, here are its problems <i>even without considering its inability to scale with marine aim properly (the skill-based part)</i>. Jump is not 100% responsive due to a problem totally unrelated to script use.
<b>'Mentally challenged' person C:</b> Scriptzor hackzor! hubbadubba oogabooga! You be thinking sun full of hotdogs! I be think banana taste better!
The base movement for all classes in the game is fine as is. UWE needs to add more depth VIA upgradable mechanics that can be obtained VIA RTS side of the game. Other wise simply increase skulk movement and leap range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't believe you even said that. From a design perspective there's absolutely no reason to have any given aspect of a game "upgradable" just for shids and giggles. You don't upgrade jumping up cliffs as reapers in SC2, you don't upgrade hardened shield as immortals. If you want something to be an upgradable, or there's some reason why delaying it until later in the game makes sense, that's fine, but you don't have to have everything as an upgrade just because.
This is especially true of a skill based movement mechanic. Why should you have to upgrade the ability that is the soul thing that pushes the skill ceiling up? Just so that everyone in the game is that much more bored until the upgrade comes into effect? That sounds incredibly dumb!