i come to this forum once a week maybe, and reply to a post once 6 months i cannot let this one pass
i will make it simple:
ns2 without bhoping is really boring, it lost "the combination" that made it exclusive back there
i wish i could explain or express myself a little more but my english doesnt help
the game is now SLOW
not having it isnt wrong but not being tried to implement on any stage of the game is certainly a mistake
today i think the money i spent on the alpha stage of NS2 was 99% "eternal gratitude" considering NS1 because NS2 not worth buying when you have played ns1 b4
Bunnyhopping. Of course. Please also add rocketjumps for the marines and let onos climb up ladders. Would make this game more seriously . It doesnt look ridiculous and we dont need a balance between gameplay and seriousness. Tier 3 marines should be able to FUSROHDAH bunnyhopping skulks to counter them. -_-
@Swiftspear, I like the ideas on marine landing, although I'm not sure how a roll is supposed to work in first person game. Otherwise I would put you in the bhop proponent group, sure you want it to behave a bit differently, but like almost everybody here.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - NS2 is the wrong game. I fully recognize the appeal of bhop or whatever form of movement-exploiting wizardry you can put in. The thing is though, games with bhop are usually using it to compensate for something. Quake has pretty much zero depth. The extent of gameplay can be summed up as 'get powerups, press mouse 1 on the enemy until he dies'. There's no complicated mechanics in place beyond that. Thus, something like strafejumping serves to overcome that lack of depth. With just the default mechanics in place, it's not hard to get as good as you'd need to be at Quake, but the strafejumping opens that space up considerably larger.
Battlefield 3 has no movement exploits like that. Despite its flaws and things that could've been done better, it's still fun, fun enough that it's going incredibly strong. Even in that 'bored of beta' thread there's NS1 vets admitting that they sunk hundreds of hours into it. So why didn't BF3 need all these gimmicks? Because BF3 was a strong enough game on its own. The vehicles, the classes, the fast-paced gunplay all make it *fun* without the need for silly mechanics to try to overcome a failing in some capacity.
NS2 is lacking depth. It's missing more features from NS1 than it gained, and the features it gained (power nodes / infestation) are so underutilized they might as well not even be in. Skulks, even without using bhop in NS1, are slower still in NS2, and they're bigger targets to boot. Leap is crap. Parasite is crap. Xenocide is crap. The upgrades offered to them are crap. It's crap all around. The maps are too small to really exercise strategy, which was overcome in NS1 but some of the unique things you could do. Even the old Wall of Lame was a high point compared to the severely limited options we have in NS2. The maps themselves have regressed. Vents don't allow aliens to move around the map faster - most vents just connect to the same room they left, and they've gone out of their way to stop the vents from opening up access across a map.
This would be easier if we knew what kind of game NS2 was even trying to be. NS2 could easily go without over-the-top movement exploits <b>if there was enough game in place that it no longer needed them</b>. That isn't the case. On the other hand, the devs seem to be pretty against the movement gimmicks, yet the game ends up just feeling repetitive and boring. I don't think it helps that NS2 is 85% NS1 copy-pasted, which means old players are much more likely to get tired of it sooner rather than later, as there's almost nothing new for them to really explore. If you were in an NS1 adept, you can figure out and experience the new content NS2 offers in an afternoon.
If NS2 needs SUPAR SPEEDZ, that's fine, but frankly I think it's more telling about the rest of the game that it's so necessary to have. Maybe we should go look at AVP2 and see how multiplayer humans vs. aliens worked there without feeling so slow and one-dimensional that we need to have silly ways to get around a map to make up for it.
To create their own engine was a bad decision. They should take and use the source-engine or any other engine that already works, to have more time to improve the gameplay. So many years of Beta for what? I dont see much improvements compared to NS1. I just need to have a look at the current commander-GUI and its killing me.
Be tee dubs, before anyone tries to argue that NS2 has nothing wrong with it, NS2 <a href="http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&appid=4920&from=1351370408" target="_blank">lost 54% of its playerbase in 20 days</a>. And this was over a 3/4-day holiday weekend in the 'States. The regression of player interest on that graph is a caustic avalanche.
The opening post video is very nice, but I really feel saddened that they took Team Fortress 2 as an example of Rocket/Demo-"Sticky"-jumping instead of the preceded Team Fortress Classic which had very awesome skill based movement features. With everything from GoldSrc+HL1, strafing, bhopping, etc. TFC has Rocket-jumping, demojumping, concing(concussion grenades made you fly away), grenade jumping, engie-jumping(basically the engineer can't touch the floor and has to walk on his own limited buildings(replacing all the time) to advance through the map, and has to blow up his dispenser to jump distances), swimming techniques, jump timed obstacles etc.
To me, Team Fortress Classic is the best movement skill-based game ever made. And the community maps for TFC are also the best maps ever made for such a game.
Most of us here are not really arguing for the inclusion of bunnyhopping, more for the addition of skill based mechanics like wallhop, but that actually have depth and progression to them. In the end however, there to date has not been a mechnic designed that could replace it and offer the same skill progression. Note that when I refer to bhop I also include strafe jumping... mechnically they are almost identical even if executional wise they are different.
NS2 needs something to balance marine aim, create interest and add skill to the game, all of which draw in players.
As stated previously, marines didnt have bhop in NS1 after v2.0, and no one here is arguing for marines to have bhop back. This is solely about aliens.
And the aliens have walljumping, shadowstepping, charge, bellyslide and lerk flight. I doubt anyone has mastered all the alien movement techniques so far. If you think you did, maybe there is some bhop like bug hidden for you to exploit. Go find it and stop whining. PS: Just because you think you are not getting better at it doesnt mean you have mastered something.
<!--quoteo(post=2035774:date=Nov 27 2012, 02:18 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 27 2012, 02:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Be tee dubs, before anyone tries to argue that NS2 has nothing wrong with it, NS2 <a href="http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&appid=4920&from=1351370408" target="_blank">lost 54% of its playerbase in 20 days</a>. And this was over a 3/4-day holiday weekend in the 'States. The regression of player interest on that graph is a caustic avalanche.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very interesting graph.
<!--quoteo(post=2035796:date=Nov 27 2012, 03:15 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 27 2012, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 needs something to balance marine aim, create interest and add skill to the game, all of which draw in players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree.
My hypothesis is the lack of skill depth to any game means players won't hang around. The lack of movement skill is a part of the problem.
Do we really think NS2 has the depth of NS1 to be around 10 years later? I think not.
<!--quoteo(post=2035851:date=Nov 27 2012, 01:07 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Nov 27 2012, 01:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the aliens have walljumping, shadowstepping, charge, bellyslide and lerk flight. I doubt anyone has mastered all the alien movement techniques so far. If you think you did, maybe there is some bhop like bug hidden for you to exploit. Go find it and stop whining. PS: Just because you think you are not getting better at it doesnt mean you have mastered something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It takes no time to master walljumping, bellyslide and charge, quite simple mechanics.
Shadowstep is ok but could be little bit more consistent. It does allow for many skillful moves and its rewarding to be able to do it effectivly but has plenty of room for improvements.
Lerk flight is very rewarding to learn and is a perfect example of a skillful movement mechanic. It gives a lot of freedom to the player that allows him to combat good aimers effectively if he is good enough. It's a big part of the reason why I chose the lerk as my main lifeform to play.
<!--quoteo(post=2035851:date=Nov 27 2012, 01:07 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Nov 27 2012, 01:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the aliens have walljumping, shadowstepping, charge, bellyslide and lerk flight. I doubt anyone has mastered all the alien movement techniques so far.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These except for lerk flight are not "skill based mechanics" because there is little of anything to master. There is only really a few ways to shadowstep correctly, walljumping is really easy if you do know how to do it and when you do know how to do it the only thing that is left to know is where you should do it which is not really a skill as much as general knowledge. So what you have are marines which have higher skill ceilings than most alien lifeforms, which should not be happen if bhop existed.
<!--quoteo(post=2034807:date=Nov 25 2012, 08:36 PM:name=biz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (biz @ Nov 25 2012, 08:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bunnyhopping / strafejumping is dumb this is coming from someone who thinks quake 3 is basically the best-made game of all time<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ever played Q2 or Q3CPMA? What about RA? The ability to strafe jump is what made Q3 the best game.
<!--quoteo(post=2035890:date=Nov 27 2012, 10:35 AM:name=MAD_JIHAD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MAD_JIHAD @ Nov 27 2012, 10:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ever played Q2 or Q3CPMA? What about RA? The ability to strafe jump is what made Q3 the best game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
quake 3 (live) is the best-made game because it has the best abstraction between game mechanics and controls/UI (look at all the customization options). the game is a measure of who is the better player, not who has a better PC (although a CRT helps :D) or who can distinguish one shade of brown from another or who happens to like the control style that the developers have chosen
the reason why it's a good game is because it's not a dumbed down FPS that is about who sees the enemy first and is best at moving a cursor over someone's head or combining that with some silly dodging system (which is where the skill in most of NS2 comes from). the real quake (not clan arena) is about controlling the map, weighing risk versus reward by competing over shared resources (armors/health/powerups), anticipating enemy movements, hiding your own movements, and teamwork. figuring out what decisions to make matters just as much as aiming/movement. the end result is a game with more strategy than NS2 (commander excluded) and most RTS games
strafe-jumping adds skill, but it's not as elegant as the rest of the game design. the game would be perfectly fine without it (much better for lower levels of play, slightly worse for higher levels). it's basically a carried-over engine bug, not something intentional like warsow's movement. like cpma added more crazy movement rules... and they aren't really popular in Quake Live, which works amazingly at the competitive level, because the game isn't just about aim+movement... there's so much more to it
rewarding movement is a great idea. it should be done properly and somewhat sensibly, probably via a combination of map design and game mechanics. reinventing physics by changing the shortest distance between two points from a line to a zig-zag isn't the solution...
at least straight-line bunny hopping makes sense because there's no awkward directional transformation. i like tribes skiing + jetpacking for a skill-based movement system
To clarify for those of you who had absolutely no idea of the NS1 developer's intentions or ideas and are literally making things up:
The speed gain from strafing and turning in half-life was an exploit. It allowed a maximum speed increase, which was governed in the code for NS1 by a number. This number was intentionally increased from the half-life default, specifically for NS1. By the developers. Anyone who still considers it cheating after knowing this is delusional and probably bitter.
NS2 really needs some work and additions when it comes to movement. Even after some of the latests changes (like being able to jump continuously between different surfaces) which were a step on the right direction, the game feels sluggish.
<!--quoteo(post=2035744:date=Nov 27 2012, 08:06 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 27 2012, 08:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Swiftspear, I like the ideas on marine landing, although I'm not sure how a roll is supposed to work in first person game. Otherwise I would put you in the bhop proponent group, sure you want it to behave a bit differently, but like almost everybody here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> At very least you can say I don't want bhop remotely the same as it was in NS1. I do want a skill based movement system with a lot of depth.
<!--quoteo(post=2035923:date=Nov 27 2012, 07:33 PM:name=biz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (biz @ Nov 27 2012, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->quake 3 (live) is the best-made game because it has the best abstraction between game mechanics and controls/UI (look at all the customization options). the game is a measure of who is the better player, not who has a better PC (although a CRT helps :D) or who can distinguish one shade of brown from another or who happens to like the control style that the developers have chosen
the reason why it's a good game is because it's not a dumbed down FPS that is about who sees the enemy first and is best at moving a cursor over someone's head or combining that with some silly dodging system (which is where the skill in most of NS2 comes from). the real quake (not clan arena) is about controlling the map, weighing risk versus reward by competing over shared resources (armors/health/powerups), anticipating enemy movements, hiding your own movements, and teamwork. figuring out what decisions to make matters just as much as aiming/movement. the end result is a game with more strategy than NS2 (commander excluded) and most RTS games
strafe-jumping adds skill, but it's not as elegant as the rest of the game design. the game would be perfectly fine without it (much better for lower levels of play, slightly worse for higher levels). it's basically a carried-over engine bug, not something intentional like warsow's movement. like cpma added more crazy movement rules... and they aren't really popular in Quake Live, which works amazingly at the competitive level, because the game isn't just about aim+movement... there's so much more to it
rewarding movement is a great idea. it should be done properly and somewhat sensibly, probably via a combination of map design and game mechanics. reinventing physics by changing the shortest distance between two points from a line to a zig-zag isn't the solution...
at least straight-line bunny hopping makes sense because there's no awkward directional transformation. i like tribes skiing + jetpacking for a skill-based movement system<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally, I prefer CPM to vq3 in terms of movement, weapons, spawns, maps, and the pace of the game. However, in both versions map control map positioning and timing is a big aspect of 1v1 game play. In my opinion, the faster games of CPM are more fun to watch than the tactical games of vq3. That's not to say you can't have slow playing tactical style in CPM, however.
The best CPM players (voo, rat, HAL etc) all combine excellent in-game intelligent play with amazing aim and movement. One mistake and you're punished severely. Movement skill counts for relatively more in CPM than it does in vq3 and I believe the skill depth is increased as a result.
FYI, the "CPM movement" option in quake live is not the same as in the q3 modification CPMA - the mod is much better.
<!--quoteo(post=2035774:date=Nov 27 2012, 09:18 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 27 2012, 09:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Be tee dubs, before anyone tries to argue that NS2 has nothing wrong with it, NS2 <a href="http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&appid=4920&from=1351370408" target="_blank">lost 54% of its playerbase in 20 days</a>. And this was over a 3/4-day holiday weekend in the 'States. The regression of player interest on that graph is a caustic avalanche.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again. This ALWAYS happens on release day for every game. <a href="http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=730&from=1345446000000&to=1347174000000" target="_blank">CS:GO "lost" 67.5% of it's player base in the first 20 days</a>. When a game releases everyone who has preorders and who has newly bought the game tries it at more or less the same time, and after that people's schedule diverge and they fit it in between other things rather than playing constantly at the same time as everyone else. Release day concurrency numbers have very little meaning.
Additionally, CS:GO hasn't come close to hitting 50% of it's max concurrency again since release, where as NS2 is nearly there, indicating that NS2 has been selling better and holding players better in the 2 months since it's release than CS:GO has in the 4 since it's.
<!--quoteo(post=2036076:date=Nov 27 2012, 06:41 PM:name=MinstrelJCF)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MinstrelJCF @ Nov 27 2012, 06:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036076"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CS Go has 10x the raw playerbase of NS2 though it's not really in danger of just dying. Something like SMNC is a better comparison to NS2.
<a href="http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=104700q4920&from=1325397600000&to=1353996000000" target="_blank">http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=gra...o=1353996000000</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And NS2 has 10 times the player base of NS, which lasted frigging forever. What's your point? The argument is that the statistics show a game that is dying. The reality is they do not. They show a normal concurrency curve, which can still very much go either way depending on a lot of factors.
<!--quoteo(post=2036113:date=Nov 28 2012, 12:09 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 28 2012, 12:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036113"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And NS2 has 10 times the player base of NS, which lasted frigging forever. What's your point? The argument is that the statistics show a game that is dying. The reality is they do not. They show a normal concurrency curve, which can still very much go either way depending on a lot of factors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well what were the peak playerbase stats for NS1 back in the day, it was supposedly the 3rd most popular game behind CS and CSS at one point in time, so that would be more popular than NS2 is at the moment, years after release rather than under four weeks. Can't say whether or not the game is dying until the playerstats either plateau or continue dropping, they aren't going to shoot back up in the absence of a TF2 hat promotion or steam sale. I expect the game to keep dropping but still limp along in the top 100 steam games for another few months.
Actually looking at the stats at the moment, it looks like the game only has any popularity in Europe, which seems pretty accurate looking at the competitive scene also. It is barely clinging to the very bottom of the top 100 most played steam games when all the Euros are asleep, putting it down there with stuff like Rome Total War which was released in 2004.
<!--quoteo(post=2036123:date=Nov 28 2012, 11:19 AM:name=MinstrelJCF)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MinstrelJCF @ Nov 28 2012, 11:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well what were the peak playerbase stats for NS1 back in the day, it was supposedly the 3rd most popular game behind CS and CSS at one point in time, so that would be more popular than NS2 is at the moment, years after release rather than under four weeks. Can't say whether or not the game is dying until the playerstats either plateau or continue dropping, they aren't going to shoot back up in the absence of a TF2 hat promotion or steam sale. I expect the game to keep dropping but still limp along in the top 100 steam games for another few months.
Actually looking at the stats at the moment, it looks like the game only has any popularity in Europe, which seems pretty accurate looking at the competitive scene also. It is barely clinging to the very bottom of the top 100 most played steam games when all the Euros are asleep, putting it down there with stuff like Rome Total War which was released in 2004.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Evenings in Australia have a decent 10-15 full servers. However there has been quite a drop from launch. Now lets go back to discussing why a movement skill should be implemented into a game that has about 950,000 other items that are far more important ahead of it.
oh yeah, the players who want the higher ceiling of a skill based movement that is challenging to learn and implement across a variety of situations and circumstances are the same players who stick around with the game pushing the limits of what can be done through nuanced input.
example: NS1. people, including myself, played that game for 10 years right up until NS2 released.
as i said earlier in the thread and has been beat into the ground over and over again, the issue isn't realism. it's the fact that bunnyhop/strafe jump/etc were the best ways to bridge the gap between the limitation of what our keyboards/mice can enter and complex physical reality of shifting weight/twisting/momentum etc.
You should know that changing your direction while jumping midair perverts any physical laws of reality. Bhop is not realistic. Games dont have to be realistic. The issue with bhop is, is it fun to learn and practice bhop/play vs a bhopper? Lots of people say it looks ridiculous. It is not logical to be faster while moving zig zag compared to running straight. Walljump simply fits the skulk much better than bunnyhopping. Plus it pushes skulks towards attacking in narrow corridors instead of open areas. Sure it can be improved, maybe they the devs are even working on it or have some plans. The mechanic of keeping momentum the first time you hit the ground looks like an interesting idea for example. Why not look into it, maybe make a mod and try it out instead of whining on the forums (i know, forum game is fun)?
Because UW offers us General Discussion and Suggestion forums. You might come to the conclusion if you gave it a try that that is why we are talking about it here.
Try something quickly- go fade. press space and before hitting the ground press space again, what happens?
Comments
i will make it simple:
ns2 without bhoping is really boring, it lost "the combination" that made it exclusive back there
i wish i could explain or express myself a little more but my english doesnt help
the game is now SLOW
not having it isnt wrong but not being tried to implement on any stage of the game is certainly a mistake
today i think the money i spent on the alpha stage of NS2 was 99% "eternal gratitude" considering NS1 because NS2 not worth buying when you have played ns1 b4
Otherwise I would put you in the bhop proponent group, sure you want it to behave a bit differently, but like almost everybody here.
Battlefield 3 has no movement exploits like that. Despite its flaws and things that could've been done better, it's still fun, fun enough that it's going incredibly strong. Even in that 'bored of beta' thread there's NS1 vets admitting that they sunk hundreds of hours into it. So why didn't BF3 need all these gimmicks? Because BF3 was a strong enough game on its own. The vehicles, the classes, the fast-paced gunplay all make it *fun* without the need for silly mechanics to try to overcome a failing in some capacity.
NS2 is lacking depth. It's missing more features from NS1 than it gained, and the features it gained (power nodes / infestation) are so underutilized they might as well not even be in. Skulks, even without using bhop in NS1, are slower still in NS2, and they're bigger targets to boot. Leap is crap. Parasite is crap. Xenocide is crap. The upgrades offered to them are crap. It's crap all around. The maps are too small to really exercise strategy, which was overcome in NS1 but some of the unique things you could do. Even the old Wall of Lame was a high point compared to the severely limited options we have in NS2. The maps themselves have regressed. Vents don't allow aliens to move around the map faster - most vents just connect to the same room they left, and they've gone out of their way to stop the vents from opening up access across a map.
This would be easier if we knew what kind of game NS2 was even trying to be. NS2 could easily go without over-the-top movement exploits <b>if there was enough game in place that it no longer needed them</b>. That isn't the case. On the other hand, the devs seem to be pretty against the movement gimmicks, yet the game ends up just feeling repetitive and boring. I don't think it helps that NS2 is 85% NS1 copy-pasted, which means old players are much more likely to get tired of it sooner rather than later, as there's almost nothing new for them to really explore. If you were in an NS1 adept, you can figure out and experience the new content NS2 offers in an afternoon.
If NS2 needs SUPAR SPEEDZ, that's fine, but frankly I think it's more telling about the rest of the game that it's so necessary to have. Maybe we should go look at AVP2 and see how multiplayer humans vs. aliens worked there without feeling so slow and one-dimensional that we need to have silly ways to get around a map to make up for it.
You said it.
To create their own engine was a bad decision. They should take and use the source-engine or any other engine that already works, to have more time to improve the gameplay. So many years of Beta for what? I dont see much improvements compared to NS1. I just need to have a look at the current commander-GUI and its killing me.
To me, Team Fortress Classic is the best movement skill-based game ever made. And the community maps for TFC are also the best maps ever made for such a game.
NS2 needs something to balance marine aim, create interest and add skill to the game, all of which draw in players.
Sal
PS: Just because you think you are not getting better at it doesnt mean you have mastered something.
Very interesting graph.
<!--quoteo(post=2035796:date=Nov 27 2012, 03:15 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 27 2012, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 needs something to balance marine aim, create interest and add skill to the game, all of which draw in players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree.
My hypothesis is the lack of skill depth to any game means players won't hang around. The lack of movement skill is a part of the problem.
Do we really think NS2 has the depth of NS1 to be around 10 years later? I think not.
PS: Just because you think you are not getting better at it doesnt mean you have mastered something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It takes no time to master walljumping, bellyslide and charge, quite simple mechanics.
Shadowstep is ok but could be little bit more consistent. It does allow for many skillful moves and its rewarding to be able to do it effectivly but has plenty of room for improvements.
Lerk flight is very rewarding to learn and is a perfect example of a skillful movement mechanic. It gives a lot of freedom to the player that allows him to combat good aimers effectively if he is good enough. It's a big part of the reason why I chose the lerk as my main lifeform to play.
These except for lerk flight are not "skill based mechanics" because there is little of anything to master. There is only really a few ways to shadowstep correctly, walljumping is really easy if you do know how to do it and when you do know how to do it the only thing that is left to know is where you should do it which is not really a skill as much as general knowledge. So what you have are marines which have higher skill ceilings than most alien lifeforms, which should not be happen if bhop existed.
this is coming from someone who thinks quake 3 is basically the best-made game of all time<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ever played Q2 or Q3CPMA? What about RA? The ability to strafe jump is what made Q3 the best game.
quake 3 (live) is the best-made game because it has the best abstraction between game mechanics and controls/UI (look at all the customization options). the game is a measure of who is the better player, not who has a better PC (although a CRT helps :D) or who can distinguish one shade of brown from another or who happens to like the control style that the developers have chosen
the reason why it's a good game is because it's not a dumbed down FPS that is about who sees the enemy first and is best at moving a cursor over someone's head or combining that with some silly dodging system (which is where the skill in most of NS2 comes from). the real quake (not clan arena) is about controlling the map, weighing risk versus reward by competing over shared resources (armors/health/powerups), anticipating enemy movements, hiding your own movements, and teamwork. figuring out what decisions to make matters just as much as aiming/movement. the end result is a game with more strategy than NS2 (commander excluded) and most RTS games
strafe-jumping adds skill, but it's not as elegant as the rest of the game design. the game would be perfectly fine without it (much better for lower levels of play, slightly worse for higher levels). it's basically a carried-over engine bug, not something intentional like warsow's movement. like cpma added more crazy movement rules... and they aren't really popular in Quake Live, which works amazingly at the competitive level, because the game isn't just about aim+movement... there's so much more to it
rewarding movement is a great idea. it should be done properly and somewhat sensibly, probably via a combination of map design and game mechanics. reinventing physics by changing the shortest distance between two points from a line to a zig-zag isn't the solution...
at least straight-line bunny hopping makes sense because there's no awkward directional transformation. i like tribes skiing + jetpacking for a skill-based movement system
The speed gain from strafing and turning in half-life was an exploit. It allowed a maximum speed increase, which was governed in the code for NS1 by a number.
This number was intentionally increased from the half-life default, specifically for NS1. By the developers. Anyone who still considers it cheating after knowing this is delusional and probably bitter.
Otherwise I would put you in the bhop proponent group, sure you want it to behave a bit differently, but like almost everybody here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At very least you can say I don't want bhop remotely the same as it was in NS1. I do want a skill based movement system with a lot of depth.
the reason why it's a good game is because it's not a dumbed down FPS that is about who sees the enemy first and is best at moving a cursor over someone's head or combining that with some silly dodging system (which is where the skill in most of NS2 comes from). the real quake (not clan arena) is about controlling the map, weighing risk versus reward by competing over shared resources (armors/health/powerups), anticipating enemy movements, hiding your own movements, and teamwork. figuring out what decisions to make matters just as much as aiming/movement. the end result is a game with more strategy than NS2 (commander excluded) and most RTS games
strafe-jumping adds skill, but it's not as elegant as the rest of the game design. the game would be perfectly fine without it (much better for lower levels of play, slightly worse for higher levels). it's basically a carried-over engine bug, not something intentional like warsow's movement. like cpma added more crazy movement rules... and they aren't really popular in Quake Live, which works amazingly at the competitive level, because the game isn't just about aim+movement... there's so much more to it
rewarding movement is a great idea. it should be done properly and somewhat sensibly, probably via a combination of map design and game mechanics. reinventing physics by changing the shortest distance between two points from a line to a zig-zag isn't the solution...
at least straight-line bunny hopping makes sense because there's no awkward directional transformation. i like tribes skiing + jetpacking for a skill-based movement system<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally, I prefer CPM to vq3 in terms of movement, weapons, spawns, maps, and the pace of the game. However, in both versions map control map positioning and timing is a big aspect of 1v1 game play. In my opinion, the faster games of CPM are more fun to watch than the tactical games of vq3. That's not to say you can't have slow playing tactical style in CPM, however.
The best CPM players (voo, rat, HAL etc) all combine excellent in-game intelligent play with amazing aim and movement. One mistake and you're punished severely. Movement skill counts for relatively more in CPM than it does in vq3 and I believe the skill depth is increased as a result.
FYI, the "CPM movement" option in quake live is not the same as in the q3 modification CPMA - the mod is much better.
Once again. This ALWAYS happens on release day for every game. <a href="http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=730&from=1345446000000&to=1347174000000" target="_blank">CS:GO "lost" 67.5% of it's player base in the first 20 days</a>. When a game releases everyone who has preorders and who has newly bought the game tries it at more or less the same time, and after that people's schedule diverge and they fit it in between other things rather than playing constantly at the same time as everyone else. Release day concurrency numbers have very little meaning.
Additionally, CS:GO hasn't come close to hitting 50% of it's max concurrency again since release, where as NS2 is nearly there, indicating that NS2 has been selling better and holding players better in the 2 months since it's release than CS:GO has in the 4 since it's.
<a href="http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=104700q4920&from=1325397600000&to=1353996000000" target="_blank">http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=gra...o=1353996000000</a>
<a href="http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=104700q4920&from=1325397600000&to=1353996000000" target="_blank">http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=gra...o=1353996000000</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And NS2 has 10 times the player base of NS, which lasted frigging forever. What's your point? The argument is that the statistics show a game that is dying. The reality is they do not. They show a normal concurrency curve, which can still very much go either way depending on a lot of factors.
Well what were the peak playerbase stats for NS1 back in the day, it was supposedly the 3rd most popular game behind CS and CSS at one point in time, so that would be more popular than NS2 is at the moment, years after release rather than under four weeks. Can't say whether or not the game is dying until the playerstats either plateau or continue dropping, they aren't going to shoot back up in the absence of a TF2 hat promotion or steam sale. I expect the game to keep dropping but still limp along in the top 100 steam games for another few months.
Actually looking at the stats at the moment, it looks like the game only has any popularity in Europe, which seems pretty accurate looking at the competitive scene also. It is barely clinging to the very bottom of the top 100 most played steam games when all the Euros are asleep, putting it down there with stuff like Rome Total War which was released in 2004.
Actually looking at the stats at the moment, it looks like the game only has any popularity in Europe, which seems pretty accurate looking at the competitive scene also. It is barely clinging to the very bottom of the top 100 most played steam games when all the Euros are asleep, putting it down there with stuff like Rome Total War which was released in 2004.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Evenings in Australia have a decent 10-15 full servers. However there has been quite a drop from launch.
Now lets go back to discussing why a movement skill should be implemented into a game that has about 950,000 other items that are far more important ahead of it.
example: NS1. people, including myself, played that game for 10 years right up until NS2 released.
as i said earlier in the thread and has been beat into the ground over and over again, the issue isn't realism. it's the fact that bunnyhop/strafe jump/etc were the best ways to bridge the gap between the limitation of what our keyboards/mice can enter and complex physical reality of shifting weight/twisting/momentum etc.
Lots of people say it looks ridiculous. It is not logical to be faster while moving zig zag compared to running straight.
Walljump simply fits the skulk much better than bunnyhopping. Plus it pushes skulks towards attacking in narrow corridors instead of open areas. Sure it can be improved, maybe they the devs are even working on it or have some plans.
The mechanic of keeping momentum the first time you hit the ground looks like an interesting idea for example. Why not look into it, maybe make a mod and try it out instead of whining on the forums (i know, forum game is fun)?
Try something quickly- go fade. press space and before hitting the ground press space again, what happens?