<!--quoteo(post=2035188:date=Nov 26 2012, 06:09 PM:name=Insiq)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insiq @ Nov 26 2012, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035188"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1KfOiPvL8U" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1KfOiPvL8U</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like the chain of headshots while he's making zero attempt to aim. Counter-strike is such a great game.
<!--quoteo(post=2035190:date=Nov 26 2012, 06:13 PM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Nov 26 2012, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Case study CS. The competitive side was strong and led to a flourishing game which drew even more players in for the competition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As I said - the number of games that have their long-term success rooted in competition is an incredibly small number. I doubt it would even reach double-digits. As an example, Team Fortress 2 has a healthy competitive scene, but its success was rooted in public play, not competition, so it's hard to qualify it. If anything, TF2 is the ideal game, simply because it has so many concepts that work together to ensure all players can always have fun while at the same time having enough of a skill ceiling to get really good at the harder to play classes. The other thing to consider is that players who like competition are probably already playing a competitive game and aren't going to change games just because your game *also* has bunnyhopping. I'm more inclined to believe that those people would express even more interest in a more casual game, simply because it could more easily coexist alongside the competitive game they're already playing.
It'd be like trying to introduce Rugby to the United States. It's a faster, more physical and active game, I'd even say it's better because of it, but because Rugby is so similar to American Football, only football players are going to be the ones who would get into it - and they're already playing football so why would they bother with a new game?
<!--quoteo(post=2035189:date=Nov 26 2012, 02:10 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 26 2012, 02:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->anyone who thinks bhop looked bad hasn't for one second seen simple ns2 skulk strafing animations, let alone proficient ns2 walljumping. If i was making a decision based purely on immersiveness and how well a mechanic looked, i wouldn't struggle choosing bhop over what we have right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulk animations as a whole are just so laughingly bad. I love how the skulk's model randomly does huge 180 turns when running in a straight line on the wall or how they look like they are having a seizure when they try to turn fast while landing a jump or try to bite you with their ass. It is for the animations alone that skulks in NS2 are difficult to hit. TF2 has a similar problem to this where some of the best scout players learned it becomes extremely hard to hit players who glitch their model animations, often using scripts to do it. I hope NS2 doesn't have anything similar happening with it.
<!--quoteo(post=2034621:date=Nov 26 2012, 01:49 AM:name=herrsheimer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (herrsheimer @ Nov 26 2012, 01:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->English is not my language, but this video explain what i feel about skill based movement in ns2.
Walljumping is not enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If someone comes again with bunnyhopping then i have to post some links from players playing hl1/ag (adrenaline gamer mod) driving bhing to the extremest since 13 years. Here some crap !
And yes we are still playing this crap game "competitive" in our small community since 1999 and have fun with the most skillfull and fast paced 3D shooter ever.
Bunny hopping started from a bunch of people exploiting a flaw in the game engine to get an unfair edge against others players. A lot of engines had these movement flaws. In order to be able to have any kind of real fairness against those cheating the system, they had to counter it by exploiting the engine, as well. From there, so many people were cheating the system that most everyone forgot what legit play really is. It's like pirating music these days. Hardly anyone even recognizes it's wrong. Finally someone comes along and fixes the exploit and then you get threads like this...people who absolutely depend on taking advantage of bugs and glitches in order to play in a competent manner. Relying on a crutch of bugs and exploits to play is not a wise decision. They may as well be relying on a wallhack or aimbot for their gameplay. After so many people are using it, they just rely on it. The moment a patch comes out fixing a hack, the hacker community just freaks and works furiously on getting an updated hack working because they simply cannot play without it. Complain about a lack of bunny hop exploiting all you want...the fact of the matter is it IS by definition a flaw of the engine and the act of bunnyhopping IS exploiting that flaw. You're relying on cheating against legit players, people.
You see, the problem with bhop is that you have to either use a jump script or bind jump to mousewheel to perform it properly. Designing a mechanic that requires either one of those options is silly.
<!--quoteo(post=2035207:date=Nov 26 2012, 06:51 PM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Nov 26 2012, 06:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping started from a bunch of people exploiting a flaw in the game engine to get an unfair edge against others players. A lot of engines had these movement flaws. In order to be able to have any kind of real fairness against those cheating the system, they had to counter it by exploiting the engine, as well. From there, so many people were cheating the system that most everyone forgot what legit play really is. It's like pirating music these days. Hardly anyone even recognizes it's wrong. Finally someone comes along and fixes the exploit and then you get threads like this...people who absolutely depend on taking advantage of bugs and glitches in order to play in a competent manner. Relying on a crutch of bugs and exploits to play is not a wise decision. They may as well be relying on a wallhack or aimbot for their gameplay. After so many people are using it, they just rely on it. The moment a patch comes out fixing a hack, the hacker community just freaks and works furiously on getting an updated hack working because they simply cannot play without it. Complain about a lack of bunny hop exploiting all you want...the fact of the matter is it IS by definition a flaw of the engine and the act of bunnyhopping IS exploiting that flaw. You're relying on cheating against legit players, people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do your research. The original bunnyhopping came out from a flaw in the engine. It wasn't realistic or expected. If it was, the designers would have had set that as the movement speed to begin with. Some games have it worst than others such as moving in a diagonal makes you move twice as fast. "Fixing" the engine bug just wasn't too viable back in the day. So many people got used to cheating the system that generally it became less of a concern from the developers to bother fixing it because, hey, if everyone is cheating, it's okay. That was the mentality of it. The fact of the manner is that it's still cheating.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2035208:date=Nov 26 2012, 07:52 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Nov 26 2012, 07:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You see, the problem with bhop is that you have to either use a jump script or bind jump to mousewheel to perform it properly. Designing a mechanic that requires either one of those options is silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It wasn't necessary in NS1, but it made it easier. The NS2 bunnyhop could easily be designed so mwheel/scripts/macros don't give you an advantage. This isn't an argument.
<!--quoteo(post=2035211:date=Nov 26 2012, 07:58 PM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Nov 26 2012, 07:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035211"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact of the manner is that it's still cheating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Defining intended behaviour from the developers (yes, in NS1 bunnyhopping was intended) as cheating is... I don't even know what to say. Impressive, I guess?
I wonder if the international club of irrational bunnyhop haters will ever find an argument that makes any sense, other than "I REALLY REALLY DONT LIKE BUNNYHOPPING AND THATS WHY IT SHOULDNT BE IN ANY GAMES EVER". Probably not.
This whole conversation is irrelevant; bunnyhopping isn't going to be brought back.
If you like mechanics from bhop and think they have a place in NS2, make a case for them independent of their history. Yelling "it was great! bring it back!" is just pointless self-satisfaction.
<!--quoteo(post=2035208:date=Nov 26 2012, 01:52 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Nov 26 2012, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You see, the problem with bhop is that you have to either use a jump script or bind jump to mousewheel to perform it properly. Designing a mechanic that requires either one of those options is silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Something interesting about the tribes games: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was discovered in the first Tribes that if you jumped continuously while going down a hill that you would pick up speed. It was not really a bug or exploit, but rather an undiscovered/unintended feature. It caught on quickly and eventually scripts were released that would spare the punishment on your spacebar by repeating the jumping simply by holding it down. It became part of the essence of tribes and was incorporated as a feature in Tribes 2 and Vengeance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The guys who created Tribes saw a potential there and created intuitive skiing mechanics for future games.
Bhop was a big part of skulk play in ns1 and was really good at it. With small ammount of effort it could have been made for ns2 in a very intuvitive way.
In the end ns2 still lacks a effective skill based movement mechanic for skulks so they can scale effectivly with player skill vs marine aim. What keeps the skulks viable though are buggy animations and hitreg issues.
<!--quoteo(post=2035216:date=Nov 26 2012, 01:07 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 26 2012, 01:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035216"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It wasn't necessary in NS1, but it made it easier. The NS2 bunnyhop could easily be designed so mwheel/scripts/macros don't give you an advantage. This isn't an argument.
Defining intended behaviour from the developers (yes, in NS1 bunnyhopping was intended) as cheating is... I don't even know what to say. Impressive, I guess?
I wonder if the international club of irrational bunnyhop haters will ever find an argument that makes any sense, other than "I REALLY REALLY DONT LIKE BUNNYHOPPING AND THATS WHY IT SHOULDNT BE IN ANY GAMES EVER". Probably not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm talking the history of what bunny hopping is and how it evolved into being an acceptable exploit in many developers' eyes. It was an exploit of an engine that at the time was very difficult to resolve. So many people started cheating it that it became accepted as "safe to cheat". Kudos to the UWE team for having the guts to have a stance against cheating.
Not sure how you can consider bunnyhopping cheating when it was intentionally LEFT IN.. Especially when they removed it from marines, are you saying they couldnt have removed it from aliens for technical reasons? Becauses thats completely untrue.
In terms of removing bunnyhopping in goldsource it was not complex. There are plenty of games that have similar movement or game mechanics that are discovered or thought of as exploits, and are never removed or patched out because the developers like the mechanics - Aika Online had animation cancelling of almost all abilities, even auto attacks. This allowed for skilled players to attack faster and also chain abilities in very creative ways. Gunz had butterflying, which was a quite involved mechanic that allowed you to block bullets and attack at the same time, while moving quickly. Even some new games like MicroVolts (based on HAVE) , which has the wavestep which allows you to shoot faster and double jump by switching weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=2035207:date=Nov 26 2012, 02:51 PM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Nov 26 2012, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping started from a bunch of people exploiting a flaw in the game engine to get an unfair edge against others players. A lot of engines had these movement flaws. In order to be able to have any kind of real fairness against those cheating the system, they had to counter it by exploiting the engine, as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure if you call having skill as "exploiting". Back in the day there were no dev blogs steam release patches etc, no tacticool cowadooty braindead shooters either, there were games that people put a lot of effort to get good at so you sucked it up and learned to play there was no other option. You couldn't whine to anybody to change something, you had your game and that was it. You learned to play around the bugs and you had to work to beat it or in the case of multiplayer games to be decent and actually have fun. Later it turned into developers realizing that people wanted this sort of thing so it stuck around. Tribes wouldn't be Tribes without skiing and Quake wouldn't be Quake without strafejumping. That's what everybody thinks who play those games now. Players that played Natural Selection, they also say Natural Selection wouldn't be Natural Selection with its skill-based movement. "What do you say about a NS sequel without this?", others say. Many came this answer, "an abomination", and so they already made up their opinions of NS2.
If you want to know about similar phenomenon I highly suggest you look into Gunz: The Duel. Gunz is a poorly developed f2p TPS that looks like your average korean game, and it would be completely craptastic and nobody would play it if it wasn't for all the crazy movement bugs that game has. Even though the game is pay2win, has completely ###### balancing and almost everything about it is totally awful it still has a healthy playerbase just because of its accidental skill-based movement. It was patched out after a while, and nobody was playing it anymore. The developers realized their mistake and reverted the changes eventually, returning its playerbase to what it once was. It's never too late is a lesson worth learning, and if a korean f2p game developer can realize that so can UWE.
Oh yea and if you think bhop is cheating you should have been around when I played doom without mouselook. Then those scripting b-sterds came with their expensive external devices, kudos to id for showing against cheating though. Surely the ability to have perfectly precise aim will never be a thing.
I love the arguments in a video game that bunnyhopping looks ridiculous. I thought games were games not realistic simulations.
There are two types of people in this world, no no no, not those that know binary and those that do not. It's those that can bunnyhop and those that can not.
<!--quoteo(post=2035219:date=Nov 26 2012, 01:11 PM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Nov 26 2012, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm talking the history of what bunny hopping is and how it evolved into being an acceptable exploit in many developers' eyes. It was an exploit of an engine that at the time was very difficult to resolve. So many people started cheating it that it became accepted as "safe to cheat". Kudos to the UWE team for having the guts to have a stance against cheating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find it hilarious that people still view bhop this way. Oh this takes me back. I would have imagined most of those kids would have grown up enough by now to realize how silly this sounds, but apparently not.
<!--quoteo(post=2035227:date=Nov 26 2012, 01:31 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 26 2012, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure if you call having skill as "exploiting". Back in the day there were no dev blogs steam release patches etc, no tacticool cowadooty braindead shooters either, there were games that people put a lot of effort to get good at so you sucked it up and learned to play there was no other option. You couldn't whine to anybody to change something, you had your game and that was it. You learned to play around the bugs and you had to work to beat it or in the case of multiplayer games to be decent and actually have fun. Later it turned into developers realizing that people wanted this sort of thing so it stuck around. Tribes wouldn't be Tribes without skiing and Quake wouldn't be Quake without strafejumping. That's what everybody thinks who play those games now. Players that played Natural Selection, they also say Natural Selection wouldn't be Natural Selection with its skill-based movement. "What do you say about a NS sequel without this?", others say. Many came this answer, "an abomination", and so they already made up their opinions of NS2.
If you want to know about similar phenomenon I highly suggest you look into Gunz: The Duel. Gunz is a poorly developed f2p TPS that looks like your average korean game, and it would be completely craptastic and nobody would play it if it wasn't for all the crazy movement bugs that game has. Even though the game is pay2win, has completely ###### balancing and almost everything about it is totally awful it still has a healthy playerbase just because of its accidental skill-based movement. It was patched out after a while, and nobody was playing it anymore. The developers realized their mistake and reverted the changes eventually, returning its playerbase to what it once was. It's never too late is a lesson worth learning, and if a korean f2p game developer can realize that so can UWE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the record I do applaud a reasonable and sensible answer. Regardless, there is such a thing as "too much fun". Players often like taking the "easy" route. Sure, playing a game with cheat mode enabled is a lot of "fun", but in the end, it just kills the game. Limitations are necessary to ensure the longevity of just about anything. Sure, it'd be "fun" to start NS2 with everything unlocked...but that will have some serious repercussions. Sure, it's fun to be able to bunnyhop and go around a map at 200 mph, but it'll kill the gameplay. The atmosphere is gone, the balance is gone, the realistic viability is gone, it's just a bunch of people bouncing around and flying all over the place taking pot shots at each other. It's "fun" just as having unlimited ammo cheats in games is "fun" but it ends up just flat out spoiling it.
Back in the day I used to be on a development team for a mod for Jedi Knight: Academy. Originally there was one developer named Slider and the mod was JA+. He kept adding stuff that was unbalancing the game but was "fun". It became so popular that probably 90% of all servers was running JA+. People were flying around with superpowers, admins could instantly slay anyone they wanted, new special moves that allowed you to stunlock people in duels indefinitely was added, and so on. Eventually it got so out of hand that even the JA+ lovers started to become haters. There was barely any gameplay even left. It was just a bunch of players with superpowers. I stepped in and helped maintain control of everything again and started balancing the game in a "meet in the middle" way for people for and against JA+. Finally the game started livening up again and JA+ was nearly being run on every server with it being "balanced out" again. Then one day, the lead dev added grappling hook with no cooldown and almost instantaneous travel time. Everyone was having fun but the whole game ended up being people spamming grappling hook all over the place, taking a big swing, and "teleporting" to you instantly killing you, and if you saw them coming, they'd appear and be gone in a flash before you could even finish your swing. The game pretty much died shortly after that. There were hardly any real duels or gameplay beyond that point and the lead developer wouldn't change it because it became such a "norm" in the game, just like bunnyhopping.
Gameplay has to be fun with limitations. Otherwise, the game simply won't survive. You have to balance fun. You can't just be eating cake (fun) every day. You do need your veggies (gameplay balance). Imagine if chess was a game where every piece moved like a queen. Do you seriously think the game would have turned into a classic over the centuries?
tldr; - Stop having cake all the time and eat your veggies.
I always felt like bunny hopping in CS:S and the like where engagement times are incredibly important was a detriment to the games value. You could argue the same in a game like NS/NS2 but it's not a 1 life per rounds game so I feel its less credible.
Additionally in a game where the skulk was designed to ambush or as we see in comp. play, pack engage with or without ambush tactics, the bunny hop will take the skulk from a relatively mediocre unit to a strong unit. This also applies to Onos and Fade and Gorge as well.
So now we have a potential increase in unit value based on the player, which is exactly what competition needs. Public players might/will get left behind but there is always server variable to disable that sort of thing (see: AWP in CS) so people can be on a more average footing.
TLDR: Don't cap competitive players by NOT having a movement system in place.
<!--quoteo(post=2035217:date=Nov 26 2012, 01:08 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 26 2012, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035217"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you like mechanics from bhop and think they have a place in NS2, make a case for them independent of their history. Yelling "it was great! bring it back!" is just pointless self-satisfaction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
okay
walljumping is in NS2. bunnyhopping is better than NS2. therefore, bunnyhopping should be in NS2 instead of walljumping.
1. bunnyhopping is inherent to every entity in the game, aside from lerks. fades, onoses, and marines cannot wall jump. 2. walljumping is about as intuitive as bunnyhopping. 3. walljumping makes just about as much sense graphically as bunnyhopping. 4. bunnyhopping can be made easier to learn through allowing the user to hold space to jump. 5. bunnyhopping is readily available almost anywhere on a map, unlike wall jumping which requires you to be next to a wall.
for more proof, join a ns2:c server. the movement instantly feels a thousand times better. originally i thought the reason for not including bunnyhopping was that it would be too hard to duplicate (flayra said it somewhere), but ns2:c is proof that it clearly can't be that difficult. at this point the omission of bunnyhopping is kind of insulting since walljump is in the game, but honestly i gave up on ns2 a looooooong time ago. bunnyhopping is not going to be re-added no matter how much we beg or pester flayra.
walljumping is in NS2. bunnyhopping is better than NS2. therefore, bunnyhopping should be in NS2 instead of walljumping.
1. bunnyhopping is inherent to every entity in the game, aside from lerks. fades, onoses, and marines cannot wall jump. 2. walljumping is about as intuitive as bunnyhopping. 3. walljumping makes just about as much sense graphically as bunnyhopping. 4. bunnyhopping can be made easier to learn through allowing the user to hold space to jump. 5. bunnyhopping is readily available almost anywhere on a map, unlike wall jumping which requires you to be next to a wall.
for more proof, join a ns2:c server. the movement instantly feels a thousand times better. originally i thought the reason for not including bunnyhopping was that it would be too hard to duplicate (flayra said it somewhere), but ns2:c is proof that it clearly can't be that difficult. at this point the omission of bunnyhopping is kind of insulting since walljump is in the game, but honestly i gave up on ns2 a looooooong time ago. bunnyhopping is not going to be re-added no matter how much we beg or pester flayra.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not an argument for mechanics, that's an argument for bhop, which will never be implemented.
Would still be interested to see valid arguments against bunnyhopping, because to date the best/most commonly presented is that it looks retarded, which wallhoping honestly can look almost exactly identical in some situations, so that argument really cannot hold any water.
If you can come up with a new mechanic that could replace bunnyhopping, that'd be equally as acceptable. Wallhop cannot and will not replace bhop, its physically impossible (unless wallhop suddenly works on all surfaces including floors/ceilings).
I don't find bunnyhopping intuitive or fun. Movement mechanics should be at least one of those things. Bunnyh opping is essentially an arbitrary mechanic that raises the skill ceiling. Did having to manually send new workers to mineral patches in starcraft raise the skill ceiling? Yes. Was it interesting? Wall jumping has at least some logic to it: falling gives momentum.
Falling gives downward momentum, the fact that wallhop converts that into lateral momentum doesnt make any sense, nor could hopping continously to maintain that speed make any more sense than bunnyhopping.
<!--quoteo(post=2035327:date=Nov 26 2012, 10:10 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 26 2012, 10:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035327"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Falling gives downward momentum, the fact that wallhop converts that into lateral momentum doesnt make any sense, nor could hopping continously to maintain that speed make any more sense than bunnyhopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IDD but wall jumping still feels more fun and natural. My cat runs through the house bouncing off furniture, not jumping into the air and turning 90 degrees.
<!--quoteo(post=2034812:date=Nov 26 2012, 01:44 PM:name=hus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hus @ Nov 26 2012, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Huge difference between using built in splash/explosive physics to conc jump across a map VS a retarded space marine moving quicker for no reason other than exploiting airmovement physics.
There's better ways to put skill ceilings in and games designed entirely for movement skills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2035324:date=Nov 26 2012, 06:08 PM:name=DanielD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Nov 26 2012, 06:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035324"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't find bunnyhopping intuitive or fun. Movement mechanics should be at least one of those things. Bunnyh opping is essentially an arbitrary mechanic that raises the skill ceiling. Did having to manually send new workers to mineral patches in starcraft raise the skill ceiling? Yes. Was it interesting? Wall jumping has at least some logic to it: falling gives momentum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting that you bring up StarCraft. automine is not bhop, SC had vulture micro, muta stacking, lurker holding which just like bhop were mechanics from an exploit in the engine that raised the micro skill ceiling for those units and were important in balance and every player wanted to master these. Arbitrary mechanics my ass. These types of micro mechanics were actually a large part of SC and what made it such a successful e-sport. Now these mechanics were not in SC2 because SC2 is a different game from SC1 entirely in how the units are micro'd, so unlike NS1 to NS2 it cannot be compared. But what can be compared is the unfortunate lost opportunity that is bhop in NS2, and what developers can learn from the successes and failures of other games.
BTW, did you know that developers never intended the now amazing display of skill that is marine splitting against banelings? Imagine how the game would be if they made it impossible to split marines!
As much as I loved bunnyhopping in ns/cs/tf, I prefer the <i>idea</i> of walljumping in NS2. I say idea because it's not there yet and still needs a good bit of work.
For me one of the best things about bunnyhopping was how fluent it was. When you got good at it, <b>you literally didnt have to think about it</b>. You just did it. It was as natural to you as holding forward and turning is to most players. If the devs can get walljumping to a similar state of fun/usefulness, I'l be happy with it.
<!--quoteo(post=2035229:date=Nov 26 2012, 03:32 PM:name=runner)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (runner @ Nov 26 2012, 03:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love the arguments in a video game that bunnyhopping looks ridiculous. I thought games were games not realistic simulations.
There are two types of people in this world, no no no, not those that know binary and those that do not. It's those that can bunnyhop and those that can not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I refer you to my previous post on page 3 of this thread. While I fall into the 'can bunnyhop' category, I also fall into the 'don't want bunnyhop, don't use bunnyhop even when it's there' category. Now. (I didn't a few years ago but I've come to appreciate the need for a game to respect new players and old players alike: it's important that people don't think you're cheating, but instead see that you've got a lot of movement skill in an intuitive and learnable - if hard - movement system)
Bunnyhopping has to suit the game. Bunny hopping and gliding was great in TFC, but in a game like counter-strike its just retarded. In NS bunny hopping is neat for aliens, but doesn't really suit marines.
There is a difference between realism in a game and plausible realism in a game. Hardly any game is truly realistic, but games, even sci-fi, often have an expected plausible realism. For example, Star Trek is based off of psuedo-science. Sure, transporters and spaceships that travel as such aren't realistic, but it's "plausible". Marines jumping around going super speeds because they twist in turn in mid air isn't plausible realistic...it's just silly looking and very out of place.
Comments
I like the chain of headshots while he's making zero attempt to aim. Counter-strike is such a great game.
As I said - the number of games that have their long-term success rooted in competition is an incredibly small number. I doubt it would even reach double-digits. As an example, Team Fortress 2 has a healthy competitive scene, but its success was rooted in public play, not competition, so it's hard to qualify it. If anything, TF2 is the ideal game, simply because it has so many concepts that work together to ensure all players can always have fun while at the same time having enough of a skill ceiling to get really good at the harder to play classes. The other thing to consider is that players who like competition are probably already playing a competitive game and aren't going to change games just because your game *also* has bunnyhopping. I'm more inclined to believe that those people would express even more interest in a more casual game, simply because it could more easily coexist alongside the competitive game they're already playing.
It'd be like trying to introduce Rugby to the United States. It's a faster, more physical and active game, I'd even say it's better because of it, but because Rugby is so similar to American Football, only football players are going to be the ones who would get into it - and they're already playing football so why would they bother with a new game?
Skulk animations as a whole are just so laughingly bad. I love how the skulk's model randomly does huge 180 turns when running in a straight line on the wall or how they look like they are having a seizure when they try to turn fast while landing a jump or try to bite you with their ass. It is for the animations alone that skulks in NS2 are difficult to hit. TF2 has a similar problem to this where some of the best scout players learned it becomes extremely hard to hit players who glitch their model animations, often using scripts to do it. I hope NS2 doesn't have anything similar happening with it.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1HowpVX-hU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1HowpVX-hU</a>
Walljumping is not enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If someone comes again with bunnyhopping then i have to post some links from players playing hl1/ag (adrenaline gamer mod) driving bhing to the extremest since 13 years.
Here some crap !
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrfPa8DsUT4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrfPa8DsUT4</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiJVursnYss" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiJVursnYss</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvWoC7PEFJ4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvWoC7PEFJ4</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obN7IrT0wlU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obN7IrT0wlU</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWM1i_8sJ88" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWM1i_8sJ88</a>
And yes we are still playing this crap game "competitive" in our small community since 1999 and have fun with the most skillfull and fast paced 3D shooter ever.
<a href="http://s4.zetaboards.com/ehll/index/" target="_blank">http://s4.zetaboards.com/ehll/index/</a>
*insert Harvey Dent - Black Knight quote here*
That's bollocks mate
Do your research. The original bunnyhopping came out from a flaw in the engine. It wasn't realistic or expected. If it was, the designers would have had set that as the movement speed to begin with. Some games have it worst than others such as moving in a diagonal makes you move twice as fast. "Fixing" the engine bug just wasn't too viable back in the day. So many people got used to cheating the system that generally it became less of a concern from the developers to bother fixing it because, hey, if everyone is cheating, it's okay. That was the mentality of it. The fact of the manner is that it's still cheating.
It wasn't necessary in NS1, but it made it easier. The NS2 bunnyhop could easily be designed so mwheel/scripts/macros don't give you an advantage. This isn't an argument.
<!--quoteo(post=2035211:date=Nov 26 2012, 07:58 PM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Nov 26 2012, 07:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035211"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact of the manner is that it's still cheating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Defining intended behaviour from the developers (yes, in NS1 bunnyhopping was intended) as cheating is... I don't even know what to say. Impressive, I guess?
I wonder if the international club of irrational bunnyhop haters will ever find an argument that makes any sense, other than "I REALLY REALLY DONT LIKE BUNNYHOPPING AND THATS WHY IT SHOULDNT BE IN ANY GAMES EVER". Probably not.
If you like mechanics from bhop and think they have a place in NS2, make a case for them independent of their history. Yelling "it was great! bring it back!" is just pointless self-satisfaction.
Something interesting about the tribes games:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was discovered in the first Tribes that if you jumped continuously while going down a hill that you would pick up speed. It was not really a bug or exploit, but rather an undiscovered/unintended feature. It caught on quickly and eventually scripts were released that would spare the punishment on your spacebar by repeating the jumping simply by holding it down. It became part of the essence of tribes and was incorporated as a feature in Tribes 2 and Vengeance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The guys who created Tribes saw a potential there and created intuitive skiing mechanics for future games.
Bhop was a big part of skulk play in ns1 and was really good at it. With small ammount of effort it could have been made for ns2 in a very intuvitive way.
In the end ns2 still lacks a effective skill based movement mechanic for skulks so they can scale effectivly with player skill vs marine aim. What keeps the skulks viable though are buggy animations and hitreg issues.
Defining intended behaviour from the developers (yes, in NS1 bunnyhopping was intended) as cheating is... I don't even know what to say. Impressive, I guess?
I wonder if the international club of irrational bunnyhop haters will ever find an argument that makes any sense, other than "I REALLY REALLY DONT LIKE BUNNYHOPPING AND THATS WHY IT SHOULDNT BE IN ANY GAMES EVER". Probably not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm talking the history of what bunny hopping is and how it evolved into being an acceptable exploit in many developers' eyes. It was an exploit of an engine that at the time was very difficult to resolve. So many people started cheating it that it became accepted as "safe to cheat". Kudos to the UWE team for having the guts to have a stance against cheating.
In terms of removing bunnyhopping in goldsource it was not complex. There are plenty of games that have similar movement or game mechanics that are discovered or thought of as exploits, and are never removed or patched out because the developers like the mechanics - Aika Online had animation cancelling of almost all abilities, even auto attacks. This allowed for skilled players to attack faster and also chain abilities in very creative ways. Gunz had butterflying, which was a quite involved mechanic that allowed you to block bullets and attack at the same time, while moving quickly. Even some new games like MicroVolts (based on HAVE) , which has the wavestep which allows you to shoot faster and double jump by switching weapons.
Sure if you call having skill as "exploiting". Back in the day there were no dev blogs steam release patches etc, no tacticool cowadooty braindead shooters either, there were games that people put a lot of effort to get good at so you sucked it up and learned to play there was no other option. You couldn't whine to anybody to change something, you had your game and that was it. You learned to play around the bugs and you had to work to beat it or in the case of multiplayer games to be decent and actually have fun. Later it turned into developers realizing that people wanted this sort of thing so it stuck around. Tribes wouldn't be Tribes without skiing and Quake wouldn't be Quake without strafejumping. That's what everybody thinks who play those games now. Players that played Natural Selection, they also say Natural Selection wouldn't be Natural Selection with its skill-based movement. "What do you say about a NS sequel without this?", others say. Many came this answer, "an abomination", and so they already made up their opinions of NS2.
If you want to know about similar phenomenon I highly suggest you look into Gunz: The Duel. Gunz is a poorly developed f2p TPS that looks like your average korean game, and it would be completely craptastic and nobody would play it if it wasn't for all the crazy movement bugs that game has. Even though the game is pay2win, has completely ###### balancing and almost everything about it is totally awful it still has a healthy playerbase just because of its accidental skill-based movement. It was patched out after a while, and nobody was playing it anymore. The developers realized their mistake and reverted the changes eventually, returning its playerbase to what it once was. It's never too late is a lesson worth learning, and if a korean f2p game developer can realize that so can UWE.
Oh yea and if you think bhop is cheating you should have been around when I played doom without mouselook. Then those scripting b-sterds came with their expensive external devices, kudos to id for showing against cheating though. Surely the ability to have perfectly precise aim will never be a thing.
There are two types of people in this world, no no no, not those that know binary and those that do not. It's those that can bunnyhop and those that can not.
I find it hilarious that people still view bhop this way. Oh this takes me back. I would have imagined most of those kids would have grown up enough by now to realize how silly this sounds, but apparently not.
If you want to know about similar phenomenon I highly suggest you look into Gunz: The Duel. Gunz is a poorly developed f2p TPS that looks like your average korean game, and it would be completely craptastic and nobody would play it if it wasn't for all the crazy movement bugs that game has. Even though the game is pay2win, has completely ###### balancing and almost everything about it is totally awful it still has a healthy playerbase just because of its accidental skill-based movement. It was patched out after a while, and nobody was playing it anymore. The developers realized their mistake and reverted the changes eventually, returning its playerbase to what it once was. It's never too late is a lesson worth learning, and if a korean f2p game developer can realize that so can UWE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the record I do applaud a reasonable and sensible answer. Regardless, there is such a thing as "too much fun". Players often like taking the "easy" route. Sure, playing a game with cheat mode enabled is a lot of "fun", but in the end, it just kills the game. Limitations are necessary to ensure the longevity of just about anything. Sure, it'd be "fun" to start NS2 with everything unlocked...but that will have some serious repercussions. Sure, it's fun to be able to bunnyhop and go around a map at 200 mph, but it'll kill the gameplay. The atmosphere is gone, the balance is gone, the realistic viability is gone, it's just a bunch of people bouncing around and flying all over the place taking pot shots at each other. It's "fun" just as having unlimited ammo cheats in games is "fun" but it ends up just flat out spoiling it.
Back in the day I used to be on a development team for a mod for Jedi Knight: Academy. Originally there was one developer named Slider and the mod was JA+. He kept adding stuff that was unbalancing the game but was "fun". It became so popular that probably 90% of all servers was running JA+. People were flying around with superpowers, admins could instantly slay anyone they wanted, new special moves that allowed you to stunlock people in duels indefinitely was added, and so on. Eventually it got so out of hand that even the JA+ lovers started to become haters. There was barely any gameplay even left. It was just a bunch of players with superpowers. I stepped in and helped maintain control of everything again and started balancing the game in a "meet in the middle" way for people for and against JA+. Finally the game started livening up again and JA+ was nearly being run on every server with it being "balanced out" again. Then one day, the lead dev added grappling hook with no cooldown and almost instantaneous travel time. Everyone was having fun but the whole game ended up being people spamming grappling hook all over the place, taking a big swing, and "teleporting" to you instantly killing you, and if you saw them coming, they'd appear and be gone in a flash before you could even finish your swing. The game pretty much died shortly after that. There were hardly any real duels or gameplay beyond that point and the lead developer wouldn't change it because it became such a "norm" in the game, just like bunnyhopping.
Gameplay has to be fun with limitations. Otherwise, the game simply won't survive. You have to balance fun. You can't just be eating cake (fun) every day. You do need your veggies (gameplay balance). Imagine if chess was a game where every piece moved like a queen. Do you seriously think the game would have turned into a classic over the centuries?
tldr; - Stop having cake all the time and eat your veggies.
Additionally in a game where the skulk was designed to ambush or as we see in comp. play, pack engage with or without ambush tactics, the bunny hop will take the skulk from a relatively mediocre unit to a strong unit. This also applies to Onos and Fade and Gorge as well.
So now we have a potential increase in unit value based on the player, which is exactly what competition needs. Public players might/will get left behind but there is always server variable to disable that sort of thing (see: AWP in CS) so people can be on a more average footing.
TLDR: Don't cap competitive players by NOT having a movement system in place.
okay
walljumping is in NS2. bunnyhopping is better than NS2. therefore, bunnyhopping should be in NS2 instead of walljumping.
1. bunnyhopping is inherent to every entity in the game, aside from lerks. fades, onoses, and marines cannot wall jump.
2. walljumping is about as intuitive as bunnyhopping.
3. walljumping makes just about as much sense graphically as bunnyhopping.
4. bunnyhopping can be made easier to learn through allowing the user to hold space to jump.
5. bunnyhopping is readily available almost anywhere on a map, unlike wall jumping which requires you to be next to a wall.
for more proof, join a ns2:c server. the movement instantly feels a thousand times better. originally i thought the reason for not including bunnyhopping was that it would be too hard to duplicate (flayra said it somewhere), but ns2:c is proof that it clearly can't be that difficult. at this point the omission of bunnyhopping is kind of insulting since walljump is in the game, but honestly i gave up on ns2 a looooooong time ago. bunnyhopping is not going to be re-added no matter how much we beg or pester flayra.
walljumping is in NS2. bunnyhopping is better than NS2. therefore, bunnyhopping should be in NS2 instead of walljumping.
1. bunnyhopping is inherent to every entity in the game, aside from lerks. fades, onoses, and marines cannot wall jump.
2. walljumping is about as intuitive as bunnyhopping.
3. walljumping makes just about as much sense graphically as bunnyhopping.
4. bunnyhopping can be made easier to learn through allowing the user to hold space to jump.
5. bunnyhopping is readily available almost anywhere on a map, unlike wall jumping which requires you to be next to a wall.
for more proof, join a ns2:c server. the movement instantly feels a thousand times better. originally i thought the reason for not including bunnyhopping was that it would be too hard to duplicate (flayra said it somewhere), but ns2:c is proof that it clearly can't be that difficult. at this point the omission of bunnyhopping is kind of insulting since walljump is in the game, but honestly i gave up on ns2 a looooooong time ago. bunnyhopping is not going to be re-added no matter how much we beg or pester flayra.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not an argument for mechanics, that's an argument for bhop, which will never be implemented.
If you can come up with a new mechanic that could replace bunnyhopping, that'd be equally as acceptable. Wallhop cannot and will not replace bhop, its physically impossible (unless wallhop suddenly works on all surfaces including floors/ceilings).
opping is essentially an arbitrary mechanic that raises the skill ceiling. Did having to manually send new workers to mineral patches in starcraft raise the skill ceiling? Yes. Was it interesting? Wall jumping has at least some logic to it: falling gives momentum.
IDD but wall jumping still feels more fun and natural. My cat runs through the house bouncing off furniture, not jumping into the air and turning 90 degrees.
There's better ways to put skill ceilings in and games designed entirely for movement skills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. Good riddance, unintended engine exploit.
opping is essentially an arbitrary mechanic that raises the skill ceiling. Did having to manually send new workers to mineral patches in starcraft raise the skill ceiling? Yes. Was it interesting? Wall jumping has at least some logic to it: falling gives momentum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting that you bring up StarCraft. automine is not bhop, SC had vulture micro, muta stacking, lurker holding which just like bhop were mechanics from an exploit in the engine that raised the micro skill ceiling for those units and were important in balance and every player wanted to master these. Arbitrary mechanics my ass. These types of micro mechanics were actually a large part of SC and what made it such a successful e-sport. Now these mechanics were not in SC2 because SC2 is a different game from SC1 entirely in how the units are micro'd, so unlike NS1 to NS2 it cannot be compared. But what can be compared is the unfortunate lost opportunity that is bhop in NS2, and what developers can learn from the successes and failures of other games.
BTW, did you know that developers never intended the now amazing display of skill that is marine splitting against banelings? Imagine how the game would be if they made it impossible to split marines!
For me one of the best things about bunnyhopping was how fluent it was. When you got good at it, <b>you literally didnt have to think about it</b>. You just did it. It was as natural to you as holding forward and turning is to most players. If the devs can get walljumping to a similar state of fun/usefulness, I'l be happy with it.
There are two types of people in this world, no no no, not those that know binary and those that do not. It's those that can bunnyhop and those that can not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I refer you to my previous post on page 3 of this thread. While I fall into the 'can bunnyhop' category, I also fall into the 'don't want bunnyhop, don't use bunnyhop even when it's there' category. Now. (I didn't a few years ago but I've come to appreciate the need for a game to respect new players and old players alike: it's important that people don't think you're cheating, but instead see that you've got a lot of movement skill in an intuitive and learnable - if hard - movement system)