<!--quoteo(post=2036685:date=Nov 28 2012, 03:30 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Nov 28 2012, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036685"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right back at you, no argument for bunnyhopping. Only arguments for having some movement mechanic one has to learn to get faster/harder to hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, bunnyhopping IS one of those things, so it does fit, but I think if you start comparing bunnyhopping to other available options out there eventually the sheer lack of intuitiveness of bunnyhopping leaves it as the fat kid of the pack.
Bunnyhopping is a very beautiful system in many ways because of it's fun and rhythm, I just think there's so many other options out there worth considering first.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2036675:date=Nov 28 2012, 09:10 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Nov 28 2012, 09:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again even in that link, not a single argument why we specifically need bunnyhopping as in why it is irreplaceable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem is that you either didn't read it, or didn't understand it.
Predictability is a good thing. A big part of the reason why bunnyhopping worked so well in NS1, is that it was a tradeoff -- you want more speed? Ok, bunnyhop, but your movement will be predictable. You want to be hard to hit? Ok, don't bunnyhop, but you will be slower.
At this point I'm pretty much ready to give up on posting in these kinds of threads. We've had 20+ of them over the past few years, and it's always the same clueless people posting the same ignorant bull######. The faces of the posters may be different, but it's the same trite "arguments" every time. Doesn't matter how many times we refute them, it's like trying to kill a nest of cockroaches by stepping on one cockroach a day...
bhop is unreplaceable because there is nothing to replace it with. And yes NS2 doesn't need bhop. Starcraft doesn't need control groups or hotkeys either. Knights in chess don't need to be able to jump in L shapes. In fact, why play chess when you can play checkers? Simple, only need 1 type of piece, what's the problem? Surely people will want to play a bland and boring race like aliens with no bhop? <a href="http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/image/891" target="_blank">http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/image/891</a> oh hey look it's NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=2036730:date=Nov 29 2012, 08:38 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 29 2012, 08:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that you either didn't read it, or didn't understand it.
Predictability is a good thing. A big part of the reason why bunnyhopping worked so well in NS1, is that it was a tradeoff -- you want more speed? Ok, bunnyhop, but your movement will be predictable. You want to be hard to hit? Ok, don't bunnyhop, but you will be slower.
At this point I'm pretty much ready to give up on posting in these kinds of threads. We've had 20+ of them over the past few years, and it's always the same clueless people posting the same ignorant bull######. The faces of the posters may be different, but it's the same trite "arguments" every time. Doesn't matter how many times we refute them, it's like trying to kill a nest of cockroaches by stepping on one cockroach a day...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're going to get it everywhere. The same people were complaining back in the Quake days, the same people who think throwing in Street Fighter is "cheating", the same people who think Hyperspeed in Guitar Hero is "cheating"... Sometimes it's just better to let people live with a veil of ignorance.
<!--quoteo(post=2036734:date=Nov 28 2012, 10:50 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 28 2012, 10:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bhop is unreplaceable because there is nothing to replace it with. And yes NS2 doesn't need bhop. Starcraft doesn't need control groups or hotkeys either. Knights in chess don't need to be able to jump in L shapes. In fact, why play chess when you can play checkers? Simple, only need 1 type of piece, <b>what's the problem?</b> Surely people will want to play a bland and boring race like aliens with no bhop? <a href="http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/image/891" target="_blank">http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/image/891</a> oh hey look it's NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the problem is people like you with with these sort of backward thinking, charlie might hire you who knows. But seriously, bhop indeed needed in this game, long ago they said they will adopt it into ns2 but somehow we ended up with poor gimmick we called today wall-humping. I don't know why they keep making simple things harder, and fun things boring, but thats what NS2 have been throughout this development. To completely disregard ns1 movement, (many other things as well) and replace it with complete current nonsense is laughable. So here at NS2 central where we ignore ns1 ideas, keep having same discussions year around and forcing broken ideas to work, up everything is normal care on.
Hate it all you want, the movement added depth to aliens and the gameplay...lets not forget it was actually fun.
Bunnyhopping +1. When I talked to Charlie about the tradeoff between unpredictability and speed (and how combining the two is problematic) a couple of months ago, it was literally the first time he had thought/heard of it.
Pretty much. The developer didn't understand one of the most important facets of his own game a full ten years down the line and the second-in-command is an artist - with all due respect, that does not bode well.
I will always regret, and probably won't forgive, the fact that UWE did not properly draw upon the wealth of experience they had at their disposal. Brilliant feedback was left to rot on the forums and the closest guidance they had was from a bunch of (less than) mediocre bug-testers.
I see the point there, but it's an unfortunate fact that some people would rather play checkers than chess, especially in the gaming market where there's a large player base in the 10-20 segment. So, while exaggerated, the comic is actually true.
<!--quoteo(post=2036756:date=Nov 28 2012, 11:34 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Nov 28 2012, 11:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the second-in-command is an artist - with all due respect, that does not bode well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Artists are incapable of understanding game mechanics? With all due respect, that statement is full of ignorance.
I didn't say that but it in this case, that probably wouldn't be far off the mark. Rather, my concern is with artistic direction coming to the fore in design decisions where it shouldn't. I dare say it's responsible for the overloading of visual clutter (one of the biggest reason I rarely touch the game), at the very least.
to be fair it's not reasonable to expect the lead art developer or coder to understand skill movement, or why it's important to gameplay. all that means is they should defer gameplay decisions regarding those mechanics to those who do.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=125047&view=findpost&p=2036698" target="_blank">the same thing can be said for the playtesting group regarding skill as well.</a>
Oh cool another bunnyhopping thread. I'm sure the naysayers that are unable to grasp something as simple as turning in air giving speed, unable to accept the fact that everyone agrees jump timing can and should be removed but still remains necessary and even more difficult in NS2 (thanks to no mousewheel or scripting), or unable to accept the fact that a gallop animation/sound could easily be created to negate the immersion argument will all be won over if we post a few more pages of discussion about it.
And of course the developers will read every page of it again and realize that every side of the argument is appeasable by implementing visual/auditory feeedback with a tutorial, while making the skill gap smaller by making the speed gain marginal because of their understanding of advanced NS gameplay and sharp intuition for skilled game mechanics, or at least their ability to communicate with people with that and not toss the input out of the window.
How the F would someone as brilliant as Cory not understand something in a game he CREATED ?
Moreso, where the F do you get off, coz your telling Cory he shouldn't be 2IC when your just some internet nobody, with no games under your belt, no artistic talent and probably, in all honesty, you have been afflicted by a congenital disease and don't have full movement of your limbs. So maybe you shouldn't be talking about computer games at all, seems as it's rather obvious you don't actually OWN any :)
<!--quoteo(post=2036777:date=Nov 29 2012, 12:02 AM:name=runner)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (runner @ Nov 29 2012, 12:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Artists are incapable of understanding game mechanics? With all due respect, that statement is full of ignorance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It really isn't if you take a quick look at refinery.
<!--quoteo(post=2036734:date=Nov 29 2012, 08:50 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 29 2012, 08:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bhop is unreplaceable because there is nothing to replace it with. And yes NS2 doesn't need bhop. Starcraft doesn't need control groups or hotkeys either. Knights in chess don't need to be able to jump in L shapes. In fact, why play chess when you can play checkers? Simple, only need 1 type of piece, what's the problem? Surely people will want to play a bland and boring race like aliens with no bhop? <a href="http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/image/891" target="_blank">http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/image/891</a> oh hey look it's NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Terrible analogy. These mechanics are built in and are logical and accessible to the end user. Leap, blink etc. They all work for that reason. Bunnyhopping in its traditional form is not. There is no place for that sort of mechanic in a game that you want to attract new players to. There are already a ton of movement based games out there in which the game is designed entirely around it.
Games like the Battlefield series, TF2 etc all have a huge playerbase that is retained for years. They manage to do this without having to include some ridiculous movement mechanic. Putting bunnyhopping in ns2 isn't going to boost any numbers, just isolate even more people from the already hostile environment to newcomers.
Here's something I do know. Skill based movements only become scrutinized when players are playing the game beyond a casual pursuit. Unfortunately, the majority of players purchasing NS2 right now are more concerned about content being added as opposed to resurrecting an obtuse movement system from the first game.
I'm not saying bhopping isn't important. I'm saying look at this from Flayra's perspective. Skill based movement is obviously on his list of "things to work on" otherwise wall jumping (a clear effort towards implementing a skill based movement system for veterans) would be absent in the current build.
The reason they didn't bring back bhop is probably because it was a beast of a skill to learn for new players. I'm not saying it was ridiculously hard to pick up, but it was unintuitive for most people unless someone explicitly explained to them how to do it. I think Flayra wants to bring something similar to bhop back to the game, but it needs to be recognizable as a tool to new players as easily as they can recognize how powering rooms works or what the Lerk's flight model is capable of.
Seriously though guys, let's not be so heated. It's only a game, after all.
<!--quoteo(post=2036828:date=Nov 28 2012, 08:02 PM:name=wiry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wiry @ Nov 28 2012, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It really isn't if you take a quick look at refinery.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
tbh it's really hard to make a map that is balanced, regardless of skill level. It's also exceptionally hard to balance artistic good looks versus gameplay. Personally I really hate railings especially in summit and want to see them gone, and also things that are rarely noticed but you lose fps from.
<!--quoteo(post=2036920:date=Nov 28 2012, 10:33 PM:name=hus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hus @ Nov 28 2012, 10:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Games like the Battlefield series, TF2 etc all have a huge playerbase that is retained for years. They manage to do this without having to include some ridiculous movement mechanic. Putting bunnyhopping in ns2 isn't going to boost any numbers, just isolate even more people from the already hostile environment to newcomers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Games like TF2 and BF3 retained their playerbase because they stuck to what matters. For TF2 it's twitch arena style shooting with an emphasis on teamplay and fun mechanics with a decently high skill ceiling especially in team play and movement. For BF3 its large scale semi-realistic battles with an fun gameplay and teamplay roles. One of the reasons why most NS1 players never play NS2 is because they consider alien movement such a big deal that it being gone is a make or break type of thing. This isn't even considering that every single change from NS1 to NS2 has had massive negative drawbacks, such as the loss of RFK, casualization of marine team play by removing the need to order weapons and weld teammates, the dilution of the role of the gorge and more.
<!--quoteo(post=2036920:date=Nov 28 2012, 06:33 PM:name=hus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hus @ Nov 28 2012, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Games like the Battlefield series, TF2 etc all have a huge playerbase that is retained for years. They manage to do this without having to include some ridiculous movement mechanic. Putting bunnyhopping in ns2 isn't going to boost any numbers, just isolate even more people from the already hostile environment to newcomers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Battlefield isn't even remotely comparable because it's a realistic shooter and an entire team isn't melee.
TF2 doesn't have bunnyhopping but it has skill-based movement, therefore it has sustainability and something for players to work toward.
NS2 needs skill-based movement, not necessarily bunnyhopping.
<!--quoteo(post=2036940:date=Nov 29 2012, 02:02 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Nov 29 2012, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Battlefield isn't even remotely comparable because it's a realistic shooter and an entire team isn't melee.
TF2 doesn't have bunnyhopping but it has skill-based movement, therefore it has sustainability and something for players to work toward.
NS2 needs skill-based movement, not necessarily bunnyhopping.
read the thread or don't bother replying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've read the thread. A bunch of people are complaining that wall jumping isn't niche enough for them and they want something harder to master.
News just in: non accessible games don't make money or sustain a playerbase.
TF2's skill based movement is all class related and is presented to the end user in a way in which they understand. UWE have tried doing this with the wall jumping stuff, but people are complaining about it and want some herp derp method that is only discovered by youtube tutorial videos and an intensive training school.
games are best when they meet the needs for their target audience. there isn't just one target audience...
and since people keep mouthing off about money and success, know that every other FPS dev is trying to make the next TF2 and be like TF2 and steal players from TF2. the vast majority of them are failing. competing for that audience is not easy...
<!--quoteo(post=2036944:date=Nov 28 2012, 10:12 PM:name=hus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hus @ Nov 28 2012, 10:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've read the thread. A bunch of people are complaining that wall jumping isn't niche enough for them and they want something harder to master.
News just in: non accessible games don't make money or sustain a playerbase.
TF2's skill based movement is all class related and is presented to the end user in a way in which they understand. UWE have tried doing this with the wall jumping stuff, but people are complaining about it and want some herp derp method that is only discovered by youtube tutorial videos and an intensive training school.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Dota, LoL, Starcraft 2, Street Fighter.
The biggest competitive games in the world and the most played games in the world have a very high skill ceiling. The former 3 are EXTREMELY inaccessible, good players absolutely EVISCERATE weaker players. You could literally run a million matches and the good players would not lose a single one. These games all have some level of accessibility, although you'd hardly call any of them highly accessible games, but ultimately, the accessibility SHOULD NEVER EVER come from lowering the skill ceiling. Accessibility comes from building intuitive systems to explore and discover, from giving players fun things to do that don't require 300 APM, and then making it clearly obvious what they need to work on in order to get better.
It's a complete and absolute myth that you need to make games easy in order to get good sales or have a good reputation in gaming. There are so many example where this is not the case. There is a point where game developers can be needlessly mean to "poor" players, and most people recognize that as a bad idea, but raising the skill ceiling doesn't have to come at the expense of making a game with an unacceptable level of accessibility. In many cases you can elegantly do both at the same time!
"A minute to learn a lifetime to master" should be the mantra for NS2. That's more or less what we got with NS1, and that's why SO many of us loved that game SO SO much! If it was a dumber game there's no way in hell I would have put the thousands of hours into it that I did.
The biggest competitive games in the world and the most played games in the world have a very high skill ceiling. The former 3 are EXTREMELY inaccessible, good players absolutely EVISCERATE weaker players. You could literally run a million matches and the good players would not lose a single one. These games all have some level of accessibility, although you'd hardly call any of them highly accessible games, but ultimately, the accessibility SHOULD NEVER EVER come from lowering the skill ceiling. Accessibility comes from building intuitive systems to explore and discover, from giving players fun things to do that don't require 300 APM, and then making it clearly obvious what they need to work on in order to get better.
It's a complete and absolute myth that you need to make games easy in order to get good sales or have a good reputation in gaming. There are so many example where this is not the case. There is a point where game developers can be needlessly mean to "poor" players, and most people recognize that as a bad idea, but raising the skill ceiling doesn't have to come at the expense of making a game with an unacceptable level of accessibility. In many cases you can elegantly do both at the same time!
"A minute to learn a lifetime to master" should be the mantra for NS2. That's more or less what we got with NS1, and that's why SO many of us loved that game SO SO much! If it was a dumber game there's no way in hell I would have put the thousands of hours into it that I did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No arguments from me about depth. But you need to make the depth something that is apparent to players and you either need to limit the advantage it presents OR have a match making system. Since I don't see ns2 ever having the playerbase to have a match making system, I don't think there is a place for movement exploits that only those in the know are able to utilise. It just alienates at the expense of keeping a small crowd happy.
just a quick observation- there have been many bunnyhopping discussions over the years of NS2 development. the faces of those who support it keep coming back and to state their case in support of a game they loved while the majority of the opponents seem to make their case and fade into obscurity to play some other game, being replaced to restart the cycle.
the players that appreciate and desire a mechanic that allows for room to grow even 10 years into a game (a mod at that) will stick by and truly appreciate the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2037021:date=Nov 29 2012, 12:47 AM:name=hus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hus @ Nov 29 2012, 12:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No arguments from me about depth. But you need to make the depth something that is apparent to players and you either need to limit the advantage it presents OR have a match making system. Since I don't see ns2 ever having the playerbase to have a match making system, I don't think there is a place for movement exploits that only those in the know are able to utilise. It just alienates at the expense of keeping a small crowd happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Stop this. If it is intentionally kept in the game or added in, it is not an exploit. If official documentation is added then all players have an equal opportunity to learn the mechanic. You're bringing up arguments that wouldn't even apply.
<!--quoteo(post=2037021:date=Nov 29 2012, 12:47 AM:name=hus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hus @ Nov 29 2012, 12:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No arguments from me about depth. But you need to make the depth something that is apparent to players and you either need to limit the advantage it presents OR have a match making system. Since I don't see ns2 ever having the playerbase to have a match making system, I don't think there is a place for movement exploits that only those in the know are able to utilise. It just alienates at the expense of keeping a small crowd happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's a balance point. Referring specifically to bunny hopping, I agree with you. Looking more at something like wall jumping I disagree, it's very intuitive the underlying mechanics that make it work. Referring to something like Quake 3 strafe jumping I think it skirts the line more. It has a feeling that makes sense, it's more intuitive, you slingshot your mouse view into the jump to get a little bit of extra speed, but it does require a bit of explanation, because it will be new to many FPS players, as the fastest way to go forward isn't simply holding forward anymore. That doesn't make it bad. What makes bhopping bad is that the underlying mechanics are complex and unintuitive and you just can't really get around that, you basically need a small essay to really explain how it works. There are MANY movement techniques that could be implemented be used, require a lot more skill to master, but don't rely on incomprehensible exceptions to the implementation of the game physics.
The real mistake would be to assume that because we had problems with bhopping, all skill based movement systems are dangerous now. The problems caused by bhopping are solvable without making the game dumb.
You don't need a match making system. It's ok for good players to smash bad players. We've had that in gaming since the dawn of time, and match making doesn't really even fix that. The kind of player that leaves the game just because they're bad at it isn't the kind of player you can win over and retain forever anyways. At most they'll play for a month or so, then they'll get bored and move on, because NS2 never really could compete with minecraft for what that type of player is looking for.
<!--quoteo(post=2034961:date=Nov 26 2012, 11:36 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 26 2012, 11:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The air control of goldsource feels much better than the one of NS2, I'm not speaking about gaining speed, but just the way you move when you are in the air. They implemented it in NS2c and it does feel really good (http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121482).
So even without the gain of speed that allow bhop, I would still copy goldsource air control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Definitely this. I also wouldn't necessarily want to see bunny hopping in the game, but a bit more control in air and increased vertical velocity when jumping off a wall. As well as you shouldn't lose any height, vertical nor horizontal velocity when you're crouching.
<!--quoteo(post=2037092:date=Nov 29 2012, 01:50 AM:name=wulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wulf @ Nov 29 2012, 01:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037092"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->just a quick observation- there have been many bunnyhopping discussions over the years of NS2 development. the faces of those who support it keep coming back and to state their case in support of a game they loved while the majority of the opponents seem to make their case and fade into obscurity to play some other game, being replaced to restart the cycle.
the players that appreciate and desire a mechanic that allows for room to grow even 10 years into a game (a mod at that) will stick by and truly appreciate the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a silly jump in logic. The reason you see the same people complaining is because those are the unhappy people. The people who don't want it aren't going to care nearly as much about the subject when it isn't in the game. Put bunnyhopping in and you will see the exact opposite.
I have played since beta and don't want a silly mechanic like that in this game. It was an accident in half life games and there is a reason it wasn't allowed in most of those games competitive play. This isn't unreal tournament. This game uses much more realistic movement. Strafe jumping doesn't add anything to this kind of game.
I also don't agree with those saying this is skill based movement.
1. Most people just used scripts for strafe jumping.
2. It takes much more skill to get close to marines with normal movement and vets start using strafe jumping as a cheap crutch to accomplish this.
My final reason for being against strafe jumping is probably the biggest reason it won't happen. It would most likely take a pretty big change to their engine in order to implement it. I think they have a lot of other stuff to do that would be a much better use of their resources and time.
<!--quoteo(post=2037267:date=Nov 29 2012, 12:47 PM:name=saltybp53)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (saltybp53 @ Nov 29 2012, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After reading this entire thread, I still have one question to ask.
What has this thread accomplished? Is it asking for Bhop or defending it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Overall, the thread is showing that a) the majority of people agree that having a skill-based movement system is a good idea b) many people would like either bunnyhop or a 'suitable skill-based replacement' c) some people want bunnyhop and only bunnyhop d) some people (I include myself here) do not want bunnyhop, but would like the suitable skill-based replacement (be that based on wall-jumping, or all-new abilities-based, clearly obvious and intuitive (like fade and lerk movement) e) it's a heated subject, where neither proponents nor opponents of including bunnyhop will likely concede to the other group's point of view
f) we should probably all focus our efforts/rage/enthusiasm/desires/etc on the 'other skill-based movement system,' as this is most likely to satisfy all camps, provided it affords a very high skill ceiling, provides tangible but not excessive or absolutely required benefits, is intuitive, doesn't 'look like cheating' and/or at least could be argued to make some physical sense.
I've had enough of the pettiness of both sides who are saying simply 'bring it back it roxxors' or 'leave it out it looks stupid' - these aren't constructive. I have been trying for about 6 pages of this thread to bring people to the realisation that we actually need a new system that fulfils the basic criteria that it appears everyone (or almost everyone) agrees we're after.
So, please: productive, constructive and forward-thinking - that's how we should view this. How can we best reach a solution that the majority is happy with? Clearly the current solution isn't there. Can it ever be? Maybe, hell it's worth a shot to find out, right?
Comments
Well, bunnyhopping IS one of those things, so it does fit, but I think if you start comparing bunnyhopping to other available options out there eventually the sheer lack of intuitiveness of bunnyhopping leaves it as the fat kid of the pack.
Bunnyhopping is a very beautiful system in many ways because of it's fun and rhythm, I just think there's so many other options out there worth considering first.
The problem is that you either didn't read it, or didn't understand it.
Predictability is a good thing. A big part of the reason why bunnyhopping worked so well in NS1, is that it was a tradeoff -- you want more speed? Ok, bunnyhop, but your movement will be predictable. You want to be hard to hit? Ok, don't bunnyhop, but you will be slower.
At this point I'm pretty much ready to give up on posting in these kinds of threads. We've had 20+ of them over the past few years, and it's always the same clueless people posting the same ignorant bull######. The faces of the posters may be different, but it's the same trite "arguments" every time. Doesn't matter how many times we refute them, it's like trying to kill a nest of cockroaches by stepping on one cockroach a day...
Predictability is a good thing. A big part of the reason why bunnyhopping worked so well in NS1, is that it was a tradeoff -- you want more speed? Ok, bunnyhop, but your movement will be predictable. You want to be hard to hit? Ok, don't bunnyhop, but you will be slower.
At this point I'm pretty much ready to give up on posting in these kinds of threads. We've had 20+ of them over the past few years, and it's always the same clueless people posting the same ignorant bull######. The faces of the posters may be different, but it's the same trite "arguments" every time. Doesn't matter how many times we refute them, it's like trying to kill a nest of cockroaches by stepping on one cockroach a day...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're going to get it everywhere. The same people were complaining back in the Quake days, the same people who think throwing in Street Fighter is "cheating", the same people who think Hyperspeed in Guitar Hero is "cheating"... Sometimes it's just better to let people live with a veil of ignorance.
the problem is people like you with with these sort of backward thinking, charlie might hire you who knows. But seriously, bhop indeed needed in this game, long ago they said they will adopt it into ns2 but somehow we ended up with poor gimmick we called today wall-humping. I don't know why they keep making simple things harder, and fun things boring, but thats what NS2 have been throughout this development. To completely disregard ns1 movement, (many other things as well) and replace it with complete current nonsense is laughable. So here at NS2 central where we ignore ns1 ideas, keep having same discussions year around and forcing broken ideas to work, up everything is normal care on.
Hate it all you want, the movement added depth to aliens and the gameplay...lets not forget it was actually fun.
At that point, I just gave up.
I will always regret, and probably won't forgive, the fact that UWE did not properly draw upon the wealth of experience they had at their disposal. Brilliant feedback was left to rot on the forums and the closest guidance they had was from a bunch of (less than) mediocre bug-testers.
I see the point there, but it's an unfortunate fact that some people would rather play checkers than chess, especially in the gaming market where there's a large player base in the 10-20 segment. So, while exaggerated, the comic is actually true.
Artists are incapable of understanding game mechanics? With all due respect, that statement is full of ignorance.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=125047&view=findpost&p=2036698" target="_blank">the same thing can be said for the playtesting group regarding skill as well.</a>
And of course the developers will read every page of it again and realize that every side of the argument is appeasable by implementing visual/auditory feeedback with a tutorial, while making the skill gap smaller by making the speed gain marginal because of their understanding of advanced NS gameplay and sharp intuition for skilled game mechanics, or at least their ability to communicate with people with that and not toss the input out of the window.
Moreso, where the F do you get off, coz your telling Cory he shouldn't be 2IC when your just some internet nobody, with no games under your belt, no artistic talent and probably, in all honesty, you have been afflicted by a congenital disease and don't have full movement of your limbs. So maybe you shouldn't be talking about computer games at all, seems as it's rather obvious you don't actually OWN any :)
It really isn't if you take a quick look at refinery.
Terrible analogy. These mechanics are built in and are logical and accessible to the end user. Leap, blink etc. They all work for that reason.
Bunnyhopping in its traditional form is not. There is no place for that sort of mechanic in a game that you want to attract new players to. There are already a ton of movement based games out there in which the game is designed entirely around it.
Games like the Battlefield series, TF2 etc all have a huge playerbase that is retained for years. They manage to do this without having to include some ridiculous movement mechanic. Putting bunnyhopping in ns2 isn't going to boost any numbers, just isolate even more people from the already hostile environment to newcomers.
I'm not saying bhopping isn't important. I'm saying look at this from Flayra's perspective. Skill based movement is obviously on his list of "things to work on" otherwise wall jumping (a clear effort towards implementing a skill based movement system for veterans) would be absent in the current build.
The reason they didn't bring back bhop is probably because it was a beast of a skill to learn for new players. I'm not saying it was ridiculously hard to pick up, but it was unintuitive for most people unless someone explicitly explained to them how to do it. I think Flayra wants to bring something similar to bhop back to the game, but it needs to be recognizable as a tool to new players as easily as they can recognize how powering rooms works or what the Lerk's flight model is capable of.
Seriously though guys, let's not be so heated. It's only a game, after all.
tbh it's really hard to make a map that is balanced, regardless of skill level. It's also exceptionally hard to balance artistic good looks versus gameplay. Personally I really hate railings especially in summit and want to see them gone, and also things that are rarely noticed but you lose fps from.
<!--quoteo(post=2036920:date=Nov 28 2012, 10:33 PM:name=hus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hus @ Nov 28 2012, 10:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Games like the Battlefield series, TF2 etc all have a huge playerbase that is retained for years. They manage to do this without having to include some ridiculous movement mechanic. Putting bunnyhopping in ns2 isn't going to boost any numbers, just isolate even more people from the already hostile environment to newcomers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Games like TF2 and BF3 retained their playerbase because they stuck to what matters. For TF2 it's twitch arena style shooting with an emphasis on teamplay and fun mechanics with a decently high skill ceiling especially in team play and movement. For BF3 its large scale semi-realistic battles with an fun gameplay and teamplay roles. One of the reasons why most NS1 players never play NS2 is because they consider alien movement such a big deal that it being gone is a make or break type of thing. This isn't even considering that every single change from NS1 to NS2 has had massive negative drawbacks, such as the loss of RFK, casualization of marine team play by removing the need to order weapons and weld teammates, the dilution of the role of the gorge and more.
Battlefield isn't even remotely comparable because it's a realistic shooter and an entire team isn't melee.
TF2 doesn't have bunnyhopping but it has skill-based movement, therefore it has sustainability and something for players to work toward.
NS2 needs skill-based movement, not necessarily bunnyhopping.
read the thread or don't bother replying.
TF2 doesn't have bunnyhopping but it has skill-based movement, therefore it has sustainability and something for players to work toward.
NS2 needs skill-based movement, not necessarily bunnyhopping.
read the thread or don't bother replying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've read the thread.
A bunch of people are complaining that wall jumping isn't niche enough for them and they want something harder to master.
News just in: non accessible games don't make money or sustain a playerbase.
TF2's skill based movement is all class related and is presented to the end user in a way in which they understand. UWE have tried doing this with the wall jumping stuff, but people are complaining about it and want some herp derp method that is only discovered by youtube tutorial videos and an intensive training school.
and since people keep mouthing off about money and success, know that every other FPS dev is trying to make the next TF2 and be like TF2 and steal players from TF2. the vast majority of them are failing. competing for that audience is not easy...
A bunch of people are complaining that wall jumping isn't niche enough for them and they want something harder to master.
News just in: non accessible games don't make money or sustain a playerbase.
TF2's skill based movement is all class related and is presented to the end user in a way in which they understand. UWE have tried doing this with the wall jumping stuff, but people are complaining about it and want some herp derp method that is only discovered by youtube tutorial videos and an intensive training school.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dota, LoL, Starcraft 2, Street Fighter.
The biggest competitive games in the world and the most played games in the world have a very high skill ceiling. The former 3 are EXTREMELY inaccessible, good players absolutely EVISCERATE weaker players. You could literally run a million matches and the good players would not lose a single one. These games all have some level of accessibility, although you'd hardly call any of them highly accessible games, but ultimately, the accessibility SHOULD NEVER EVER come from lowering the skill ceiling. Accessibility comes from building intuitive systems to explore and discover, from giving players fun things to do that don't require 300 APM, and then making it clearly obvious what they need to work on in order to get better.
It's a complete and absolute myth that you need to make games easy in order to get good sales or have a good reputation in gaming. There are so many example where this is not the case. There is a point where game developers can be needlessly mean to "poor" players, and most people recognize that as a bad idea, but raising the skill ceiling doesn't have to come at the expense of making a game with an unacceptable level of accessibility. In many cases you can elegantly do both at the same time!
"A minute to learn a lifetime to master" should be the mantra for NS2. That's more or less what we got with NS1, and that's why SO many of us loved that game SO SO much! If it was a dumber game there's no way in hell I would have put the thousands of hours into it that I did.
The biggest competitive games in the world and the most played games in the world have a very high skill ceiling. The former 3 are EXTREMELY inaccessible, good players absolutely EVISCERATE weaker players. You could literally run a million matches and the good players would not lose a single one. These games all have some level of accessibility, although you'd hardly call any of them highly accessible games, but ultimately, the accessibility SHOULD NEVER EVER come from lowering the skill ceiling. Accessibility comes from building intuitive systems to explore and discover, from giving players fun things to do that don't require 300 APM, and then making it clearly obvious what they need to work on in order to get better.
It's a complete and absolute myth that you need to make games easy in order to get good sales or have a good reputation in gaming. There are so many example where this is not the case. There is a point where game developers can be needlessly mean to "poor" players, and most people recognize that as a bad idea, but raising the skill ceiling doesn't have to come at the expense of making a game with an unacceptable level of accessibility. In many cases you can elegantly do both at the same time!
"A minute to learn a lifetime to master" should be the mantra for NS2. That's more or less what we got with NS1, and that's why SO many of us loved that game SO SO much! If it was a dumber game there's no way in hell I would have put the thousands of hours into it that I did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No arguments from me about depth. But you need to make the depth something that is apparent to players and you either need to limit the advantage it presents OR have a match making system. Since I don't see ns2 ever having the playerbase to have a match making system, I don't think there is a place for movement exploits that only those in the know are able to utilise. It just alienates at the expense of keeping a small crowd happy.
the players that appreciate and desire a mechanic that allows for room to grow even 10 years into a game (a mod at that) will stick by and truly appreciate the game.
Stop this. If it is intentionally kept in the game or added in, it is not an exploit. If official documentation is added then all players have an equal opportunity to learn the mechanic. You're bringing up arguments that wouldn't even apply.
There's a balance point. Referring specifically to bunny hopping, I agree with you. Looking more at something like wall jumping I disagree, it's very intuitive the underlying mechanics that make it work. Referring to something like Quake 3 strafe jumping I think it skirts the line more. It has a feeling that makes sense, it's more intuitive, you slingshot your mouse view into the jump to get a little bit of extra speed, but it does require a bit of explanation, because it will be new to many FPS players, as the fastest way to go forward isn't simply holding forward anymore. That doesn't make it bad. What makes bhopping bad is that the underlying mechanics are complex and unintuitive and you just can't really get around that, you basically need a small essay to really explain how it works. There are MANY movement techniques that could be implemented be used, require a lot more skill to master, but don't rely on incomprehensible exceptions to the implementation of the game physics.
The real mistake would be to assume that because we had problems with bhopping, all skill based movement systems are dangerous now. The problems caused by bhopping are solvable without making the game dumb.
You don't need a match making system. It's ok for good players to smash bad players. We've had that in gaming since the dawn of time, and match making doesn't really even fix that. The kind of player that leaves the game just because they're bad at it isn't the kind of player you can win over and retain forever anyways. At most they'll play for a month or so, then they'll get bored and move on, because NS2 never really could compete with minecraft for what that type of player is looking for.
So even without the gain of speed that allow bhop, I would still copy goldsource air control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Definitely this. I also wouldn't necessarily want to see bunny hopping in the game, but a bit more control in air and increased vertical velocity when jumping off a wall. As well as you shouldn't lose any height, vertical nor horizontal velocity when you're crouching.
the players that appreciate and desire a mechanic that allows for room to grow even 10 years into a game (a mod at that) will stick by and truly appreciate the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a silly jump in logic. The reason you see the same people complaining is because those are the unhappy people. The people who don't want it aren't going to care nearly as much about the subject when it isn't in the game. Put bunnyhopping in and you will see the exact opposite.
I have played since beta and don't want a silly mechanic like that in this game. It was an accident in half life games and there is a reason it wasn't allowed in most of those games competitive play. This isn't unreal tournament. This game uses much more realistic movement. Strafe jumping doesn't add anything to this kind of game.
I also don't agree with those saying this is skill based movement.
1. Most people just used scripts for strafe jumping.
2. It takes much more skill to get close to marines with normal movement and vets start using strafe jumping as a cheap crutch to accomplish this.
My final reason for being against strafe jumping is probably the biggest reason it won't happen. It would most likely take a pretty big change to their engine in order to implement it. I think they have a lot of other stuff to do that would be a much better use of their resources and time.
What has this thread accomplished? Is it asking for Bhop or defending it?
What has this thread accomplished? Is it asking for Bhop or defending it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Overall, the thread is showing that
a) the majority of people agree that having a skill-based movement system is a good idea
b) many people would like either bunnyhop or a 'suitable skill-based replacement'
c) some people want bunnyhop and only bunnyhop
d) some people (I include myself here) do not want bunnyhop, but would like the suitable skill-based replacement (be that based on wall-jumping, or all-new abilities-based, clearly obvious and intuitive (like fade and lerk movement)
e) it's a heated subject, where neither proponents nor opponents of including bunnyhop will likely concede to the other group's point of view
f) we should probably all focus our efforts/rage/enthusiasm/desires/etc on the 'other skill-based movement system,' as this is most likely to satisfy all camps, provided it affords a very high skill ceiling, provides tangible but not excessive or absolutely required benefits, is intuitive, doesn't 'look like cheating' and/or at least could be argued to make some physical sense.
I've had enough of the pettiness of both sides who are saying simply 'bring it back it roxxors' or 'leave it out it looks stupid' - these aren't constructive. I have been trying for about 6 pages of this thread to bring people to the realisation that we actually need a new system that fulfils the basic criteria that it appears everyone (or almost everyone) agrees we're after.
So, please: productive, constructive and forward-thinking - that's how we should view this. How can we best reach a solution that the majority is happy with? Clearly the current solution isn't there. Can it ever be? Maybe, hell it's worth a shot to find out, right?
Roo