<!--quoteo(post=2035338:date=Nov 26 2012, 10:28 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 26 2012, 10:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Interesting that you bring up StarCraft. automine is not bhop, SC had vulture micro, muta stacking, lurker holding which just like bhop were mechanics from an exploit in the engine that raised the micro skill ceiling for those units and were important in balance and every player wanted to master these. Arbitrary mechanics my ass. These types of micro mechanics were actually a large part of SC and what made it such a successful e-sport. Now these mechanics were not in SC2 because SC2 is a different game from SC1 entirely in how the units are micro'd, so unlike NS1 to NS2 it cannot be compared. But what can be compared is the unfortunate lost opportunity that is bhop in NS2, and what developers can learn from the successes and failures of other games.
BTW, did you know that developers never intended the now amazing display of skill that is marine splitting against banelings? Imagine how the game would be if they made it impossible to split marines!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some unintended mechanics are interesting, some are not. bunnyhopping has more in common with worker mining micro than muta micro. Please don't try to lecture me on bw.
Have you looked at what is required to butterfly correctly in GunZ? Or even wavestep in HAVE/Microvolts? The inputs required for those mechanics far outway bunnyhopping, which if implemented correctly would require a single keypress...
Just because people dont want to put forth the effort in mechanics like those doesnt make them bad or boring... Personally I find bunyhopping enjoyable and so do alot of people, what is FUN to someone is completely opinionated, so using that as a con is really completely subjective, and a really poor argument to base your judgment on.
And for anyone confused here, no one is arguing for bunnyhop back for marines... It was removed in NS1 after version 2.0, and that is how it should be... This discussion focuses solely on aliens.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2035341:date=Nov 27 2012, 08:33 AM:name=Reeke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reeke @ Nov 27 2012, 08:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As much as I loved bunnyhopping in ns/cs/tf, I prefer the <i>idea</i> of walljumping in NS2. I say idea because it's not there yet and still needs a good bit of work.
For me one of the best things about bunnyhopping was how fluent it was. When you got good at it, <b>you literally didnt have to think about it</b>. You just did it. It was as natural to you as holding forward and turning is to most players. If the devs can get walljumping to a similar state of fun/usefulness, I'l be happy with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
I like the <i>idea</i> of walljumping, but I'm not super fond of the <i>current implementation</i> of walljumping. It'd be nice to see it integrated with some form of ground-based movement system - be that bunnyhopping, strafe jumping, double-tap dodging or something else entirely.
As far as I'm aware, much of the fondness for bunnyhopping doesn't come from it necessarily being the ideal choice for NS2, but from it being a proven skill-based movement system across many other FPS.
<!--quoteo(post=2035227:date=Nov 27 2012, 06:31 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 27 2012, 06:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure if you call having skill as "exploiting". Back in the day there were no dev blogs steam release patches etc, no tacticool cowadooty braindead shooters either, there were games that people put a lot of effort to get good at so you sucked it up and learned to play there was no other option. You couldn't whine to anybody to change something, you had your game and that was it. You learned to play around the bugs and you had to work to beat it or in the case of multiplayer games to be decent and actually have fun. Later it turned into developers realizing that people wanted this sort of thing so it stuck around. Tribes wouldn't be Tribes without skiing and Quake wouldn't be Quake without strafejumping. That's what everybody thinks who play those games now. Players that played Natural Selection, they also say Natural Selection wouldn't be Natural Selection with its skill-based movement. "What do you say about a NS sequel without this?", others say. Many came this answer, "an abomination", and so they already made up their opinions of NS2.
If you want to know about similar phenomenon I highly suggest you look into Gunz: The Duel. Gunz is a poorly developed f2p TPS that looks like your average korean game, and it would be completely craptastic and nobody would play it if it wasn't for all the crazy movement bugs that game has. Even though the game is pay2win, has completely ###### balancing and almost everything about it is totally awful it still has a healthy playerbase just because of its accidental skill-based movement. It was patched out after a while, and nobody was playing it anymore. The developers realized their mistake and reverted the changes eventually, returning its playerbase to what it once was. It's never too late is a lesson worth learning, and if a korean f2p game developer can realize that so can UWE.
Oh yea and if you think bhop is cheating you should have been around when I played doom without mouselook. Then those scripting b-sterds came with their expensive external devices, kudos to id for showing against cheating though. Surely the ability to have perfectly precise aim will never be a thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Take note of this UWE. An obscure Korean f2p game has players in it. Meanwhile, TF2 combines the absolute perfect balance of non absurd movement skills and proceeds to take a giant dump on said Korean game. It keeps the skill disparity at a much more reasonable level and allows new/pub players to enjoy the game without being circle strafed by a marine stuck in a jump animation travelling at 300km/h. That's only fun for the 1% who can also execute the skill.
Just because something requires a high level of time investment/practice doesn't mean it fits. Unless of course you want some niche game that has a community of 100 players.
<!--quoteo(post=2035141:date=Nov 26 2012, 11:25 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 26 2012, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035141"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's design a movement mechanic:
First, should it be surface based or jump based ?
<b>1.</b> Surface (ground, wall, etc) based. You don't need to jump repeatedly.
I don't really know what you could do there. Skying is a kind of surface based movement, some sort of usage of downward slope could be used (like with the gorge belly-slide) but it's kind of limited because the maps are not designed for it, and it's not really suited for the game style.
All I can think of is this: type AWD repeatedly on your keyboard to make a running horse sound and move your mouse up and down like if you were riding a horse. It would make you gain speed somehow. It's kind of stupid but it would look funny at least.
Conclusion. It's not easy to come up with a pure ground system, any other ideas ?
That leave us with:
<b>2.</b> Jump based system.
First question, which surface should be used to jump. The possibilities are:
0. All surfaces. 1. Ground only 2. Walls only 3. Ceiling only 4. Combinations of 1-3.
0. is the most desirable one: it's consistent, it has a minimum numbers of rules (you don't need extra rules to deal with wall vs ground).
Second question, where should the speed-up come from, should it be a continuous progressive speed-up, or a sudden acceleration ?
Third question, should the ability to change your velocity direction increase or decrease with your speed? Should it become harder to control your skulk when going fast or easier ? Or not change at all ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Regarding point 1. I think if you think of the world as a 2D plane you're gonna have a bad time designing an interesting skill based movement mechanic. Compare sprinters to parkour. Not that there isn't something extremely impressive to high level sprinting, but if you ask me which takes more "skill" I wouldn't hesitate for a second in my answer. Skill based movement can come from making the movement system faster if you hit an ideal set of circumstances, but it can also come from removing slowdowns imposed by the game using certain techniques (the back dodge in NS/NS2 for marines is a great example of this, you're not going over your maxium speed, moving forward, you're using your strafe speed to get around the backpedal speed cap). It's not ALWAYS bad for a movement system to involve getting off the ground, and that's where I think the real goldmine is for marines in NS2. Little things here and there that make techniques like cresting railings climbing stairs, descending ramps, what not, slower if they aren't managed properly. It's also not bad to include the jump, duck, and alt move command use liberally as long as they are managed intelligently and at the same time there's a level of intuitiveness to them.
Actually alot more than 100 people play GunZ, and considering it did well enough that they made GunZ 2 which is already out... Or do you not know that because you actually have never heard of the game before? You know it kinda reminds me of another game, while not f2p it had a title you may have heard of, natural selection.
As said before comp players already can completely destroy pubs in this game even, bunnyhopping isnt going to make that worse really. Proper matchmaking, and a ranking system is what fixes that, not making the game completely skilless. That is not a valid argument against bunnyhopping.
walljumping is in NS2. bunnyhopping is better than NS2. therefore, bunnyhopping should be in NS2 instead of walljumping.
1. bunnyhopping is inherent to every entity in the game, aside from lerks. fades, onoses, and marines cannot wall jump. 2. walljumping is about as intuitive as bunnyhopping. 3. walljumping makes just about as much sense graphically as bunnyhopping. 4. bunnyhopping can be made easier to learn through allowing the user to hold space to jump. 5. bunnyhopping is readily available almost anywhere on a map, unlike wall jumping which requires you to be next to a wall.
for more proof, join a ns2:c server. the movement instantly feels a thousand times better. originally i thought the reason for not including bunnyhopping was that it would be too hard to duplicate (flayra said it somewhere), but ns2:c is proof that it clearly can't be that difficult. at this point the omission of bunnyhopping is kind of insulting since walljump is in the game, but honestly i gave up on ns2 a looooooong time ago. bunnyhopping is not going to be re-added no matter how much we beg or pester flayra.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) is this even an argument? 2) no, it's more intuitive. it makes sense to gain speed as you're falling. it makes sense to gain speed if you're springing off the wall. it makes 0 sense to magically have negative air friction by strafing while slowly moving your mouse back and forth. 3) see #2 4) wat 5) ok, so walljumping requires MORE skill to use properly than bhop. this flies in the face of every 'omg no skillbased movement in ns2' argument ever. the huge argument against walljump is that it takes like 1 hour to learn to use it properly. how is this a detriment? the big thing about movement is that it should be easy to get into. anyone can learn how to walljump. the hard part is using it in effective ways, learning routes, getting effective use out of it in battle.
i played ns2:c and the movement didn't feel that much better than vanilla ns2, and in large part it's due to a lack of walljump. i think you just have nostalgia goggles on and can't adapt to new movement mechanics.
Having a system with greater restrictions doesnt make it more skillbased... As has been said many times in this thread and others, after a couple days with wallhop you can master every single thing about it.. The only real thing you could possible try to improve on is tons of situational setups in specific rooms on specific maps, which is really a total waste of time.
No one is saying that skill based mechanics need to be hard to learn, more that there need to be a skill curve and progression to them. Wallhop can be learned in an hour and mastered in a day... That doesnt even remotely compare to aiming as a marine.
What if after a walljump, your next well-timed jump from the FLOOR would retain all your speed and rebound you off of it (but only once) allowing you to connect it with a second walljump? Basically allowing you to pingpong off the floor into another wall.
The biggest problem I have with walljump is that it's overly reliant on map geometry and oftentimes any extra speed you got from a walljump is negated by how you had to go out of your way to get the next walljump.
regarding scripting and macros: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121930" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=121930</a>
walljump is no different, and we have already played against teams who are using macros to exploit spamming jump. this is <i>already</i> an issue, and it has nothing to do with bunnyhopping.
regarding Starcraft and bothersome mechanics: I love that you brought this up, because it actually ties into my previous point quite well.
quick ancient history: Brood War didn't allow you to select more than one building at a time. Starcraft II removed this mechanic, so you could select three Barracks, press "A" three times, and a marine would build out of each Barracks. many people were outraged that this simplification made it "easier" to play the game. well... yes and no. in the end, as a developer, you have to make the decision as to what you want your players to focus on. removing the limit on building select and allowing for automine allows players to stop focusing on arbitrary repitition tasks and instead focus their energy on other tasks such as army management and micro (unfortunately SCII did remove a lot of micro mechanics so this is slightly theorycraft :E). do you want a player to win because he's better at sending a probe to mine every 30 seconds, or do you want a player to win because of decisionmaking or micro? from a gameplay standpoint, it's pretty obvious which one is superior.
another example is Quake 3 CPM, or "promode". it attempted to add some depth of timing armors in the game by removing the second counter on the clock. so instead of 9:25, you would see 9:xx. this made it slightly more difficult to time armors. following my same logic, I completely disagree with this change. do you want a player to win because he's better at innately timing an item? or, would you rather have a player win because he was able to outposition and outplay his opponent? it led to much more exciting fights when both players knew exactly when the armor was going to spawn, and had to plan accordingly. in Quakelive it's much easier to see the depth of strategy and planning that goes into attacking an armor spawn, not just "oh hey I remembered it spawned three seconds earlier so I grabbed it."
it's a question of what you want players to focus on and how much each mechanic adds to gameplay. comparing bunnyhopping to automine is just garbage when you consider the massive amount of depth and beauty that movement adds to a competitive game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The biggest problem I have with walljump is that it's overly reliant on map geometry and oftentimes any extra speed you got from a walljump is negated by how you had to go out of your way to get the next walljump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> we're all pretty much with you on this one. adding both and refining both would be incredible, it's currently the best system I can foresee.
<!--quoteo(post=2035420:date=Nov 27 2012, 04:29 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 27 2012, 04:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if after a walljump, your next well-timed jump from the FLOOR would retain all your speed and rebound you off of it (but only once) allowing you to connect it with a second walljump? Basically allowing you to pingpong off the floor into another wall.
The biggest problem I have with walljump is that it's overly reliant on map geometry and oftentimes any extra speed you got from a walljump is negated by how you had to go out of your way to get the next walljump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about just add bunnyhop and keep the walljumping in(hopefully a bit refined though).
Give the players freedom when it comes to skulk movement (within reasonable limits of course), and its up to them to develop the skill to make the most out of it, instead of just having a single mechanic of dropping off of a ceiling and thats it.
<!--quoteo(post=2035438:date=Nov 27 2012, 12:55 AM:name=Az0r_au)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Az0r_au @ Nov 27 2012, 12:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035438"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you're vehemently against bunnyhopping but perfectly ok with wall jumping? Right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We're talking about a mechanic that you're able to discover the first time you jump off a wall with a skulk vs. the hidden wizardry of using a 3jump script + airstrafe + wiggling your mouse around.
I'd like you people to at least stop pretending that your ulterior motive here isn't that you just want bunnyhop and ONLY bunnyhop because you already know how to do it and only want to monopolize your skill.
<!--quoteo(post=2035441:date=Nov 26 2012, 04:59 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 26 2012, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're talking about a mechanic that you're able to discover the first time you jump off a wall with a skulk vs. the hidden wizardry of using a 3jump script + wiggling your mouse around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121930" target="_blank">scripting can be addressed</a>. the question of learning has also been addressed by Fana in earlier posts in this thread.
<!--quoteo(post=2035441:date=Nov 26 2012, 04:59 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 26 2012, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like you people to at least stop pretending that your ulterior motive here isn't that you just want bunnyhop and ONLY bunnyhop because you already know how to do it and only want to monopolize your skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd like you to stop pretending that your ulterior motive isn't that you don't want bunnyhop and ONLY not bunnyhop because you don't know how to do it and want to keep players from getting better than you.
do you see how ridiculous that sounds? I can make silly assumptions too!
but, to answer again, I've already stated that bunnyhopping is not necessarily required for Skulks, just <i>any</i> form of skill movement. it just so happens that bunnyhopping and air acceleration happens to be the most tried and tested mechanic across probably dozens of competitive games.
See there's your problem - nobody gives a ###### about competition. It will never make UWE money to try to appeal to that crowd that will never be happy anyway. As was mentioned, a mechanic like Tribes' skiing is RIDICULOUSLY intuitive and incredibly easy to learn and enhances the game considerably, to such an extent that it's hard to imagine the game functioning without it. BHop doesn't work that way, and hasn't in the games its been in. Vs. Tau Jump / Conc Jumping which are deliberate, and again, intuitive? No, bhop in counterstrike doesn't actually fix something that was 'missing' in the first place.
<!--quoteo(post=2035449:date=Nov 27 2012, 11:06 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 27 2012, 11:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See there's your problem - nobody gives a ###### about competition. It will never make UWE money to try to appeal to that crowd that will never be happy anyway. As was mentioned, a mechanic like Tribes' skiing is RIDICULOUSLY intuitive and incredibly easy to learn and enhances the game considerably, to such an extent that it's hard to imagine the game functioning without it. BHop doesn't work that way, and hasn't in the games its been in. Vs. Tau Jump / Conc Jumping which are deliberate, and again, intuitive? No, bhop in counterstrike doesn't actually fix something that was 'missing' in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are not everybody. Plenty of people care about competition. Also how is spamming jump between two walls then running off in a straight line intuitive. Both are equally unintuitive. Both could be worked into NS2.
Also I was never amazing at bunny hopping. I was above average sure, but I never completed any of the bunnyhop maps that were designed to truly test you.
<!--quoteo(post=2035207:date=Nov 26 2012, 02:51 PM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Nov 26 2012, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping started from a bunch of people exploiting a flaw in the game engine ... They may as well be relying on a wallhack or aimbot for their gameplay. ... Complain about a lack of bunny hop exploiting all you want...the fact of the matter is it IS by definition a flaw of the engine and the act of bunnyhopping IS exploiting that flaw.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So bunny hopping is bad because its origin was incidental. So then if bunny hopping was intended from the beginning you apparently, by your own logic, would have no issue with it? I've always found this point of view a bit curious because it seems to me that things should be evaluated based on their own merit rather than their origin. Judging bhop based on the intent of its original coder(s) is a strange kind of bigotry.
This thread has been pretty civil, you should just stop posting if you no longer have anything to add but insults, which it is pretty clear that you dont.
Wallhop in its current form is no more discoverable than bunnyhopping was, the average player isnt going to jump off a wall and fall and realize, hey I gained speed... And if by some chance they heard from someone/noticed the slight increase in speed, how long would it take them to realize that the falling part is what gained them the speed, and not jumping from the wall?
Your against bhop because its hard and needs scripts and isnt intutative. ALL OF THOSE can be solved, but you IGNORE those parts EVERY SINGLE POST, and go RIGHT BACK to focusing on the various flaws with it in NS1/TFC, all of which do not apply here.
<!--quoteo(post=2035449:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:06 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 26 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See there's your problem - nobody gives a ###### about competition. It will never make UWE money to try to appeal to that crowd that will never be happy anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> you're right, the GSL and The International 2 are examples of forays into competitive gaming crashing and burning because no one cares about it.
<!--quoteo(post=2035449:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:06 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 26 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As was mentioned, a mechanic like Tribes' skiing is RIDICULOUSLY intuitive and incredibly easy to learn and enhances the game considerably, to such an extent that it's hard to imagine the game functioning without it. BHop doesn't work that way, and hasn't in the games its been in. Vs. Tau Jump / Conc Jumping which are deliberate, and again, intuitive?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> it's already quite easy to see the lack of skill movement in NS2 having a tremendous impact on gameplay, mostly in that there is nothing to master leaving the game stale, and little to separate a great player from an amazing one. if you are limited by the engine as opposed to your own individual skill, how is that even remotely fun?
<!--quoteo(post=2035449:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:06 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 26 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, bhop in counterstrike doesn't actually fix something that was 'missing' in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree, mostly because no one was talking about bunnyhopping in Counter-Strike.
The reason I compared bunny-hopping to sending your workers to mine is because both skills exist in a vacuum. Unless I remember it wrong ( I stopped playing ns1 a long time ago ) you bunny hop down a hallway as a skulk basically ignoring the fact that you can climb on walls and ceilings.
Wall jumping, in contrast, depends in large part on the environment, and therefore has arguably more depth since map architecture affects how you can utilize the skill. I'm sure bunnyhopping changed somewhat if you had to change vertical levels, but it's still basically on a track.
The other argument with it that I agree with is aesthetic: I do feel it looks silly, and that how goofy it looks is a bit of an immersion killer. Of course, the skulk movement animations are already kind of screwy.
People who argue against bunny hopping need to give the pro bunny hoppers the benefit of the doubt, however, and realize that they just want the game to be more interesting. To accuse people of wanting the game to just favor the experienced players more is probably false and definitely detrimental to positive discussion. I'm with the fact that the game needs some more skill based movement. I'd rather have it be more interesting than wiggling my butt through the air is all.
I reckon that if wall jumping required more timing, perhaps preventing mashing the jump button just prior to hitting the wall -- forcing good timing -- it would raise the skill ceiling quite a bit. To borrow from bunny hopping, you could have to be facing AWAY from the surface right as you jump, adding another level of difficulty.
The major beef i have with bhop is, that compared to other movement skills it is so incredibly easy, given you don't have to worry about timing the jumps (with script/mousewheel). Why do you think bhop was not included in the Q3 engine? Because id made a better movement mechanic. Strafejumping is not only easier to learn, it is also harder to master than bhopping. I have no idea why you are whining after bhop. If all you want is a movement mechanic, help UWE make walljump better.
<!--quoteo(post=2035411:date=Nov 27 2012, 11:08 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 27 2012, 11:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035411"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually alot more than 100 people play GunZ, and considering it did well enough that they made GunZ 2 which is already out... Or do you not know that because you actually have never heard of the game before? You know it kinda reminds me of another game, while not f2p it had a title you may have heard of, natural selection.
As said before comp players already can completely destroy pubs in this game even, bunnyhopping isnt going to make that worse really. Proper matchmaking, and a ranking system is what fixes that, not making the game completely skilless. That is not a valid argument against bunnyhopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't recall Natural Selection ever originally being touted or marketed as an e-sports game. More just a hybrid rts/fps that was awesome on its own merits without plasma wall jumping, conc jumping, bunnystrafejumpinghopping.
You sound like the typical MMO raider who puts in 23hrs a day and complains on the forum that the raid content is too easy and that there needs to be more and harder content so that the 4 players who actually get through it have something to do. In this day and age you can't build a game around a small audience. You need to keep public play viable and enjoyable without a huge skill disparity that cuts off any new players straight away.
NS1 had its chance several times to be an e-sport, why it wasnt I cannot answer too, but there are others that can...
And actually I dont play that much of any game anymore.. mainly because there isnt a game I particularly care for much.. However I really am not an MMO player and wouldnt grind that many hours on one.
Bunnyhopping isnt going to make public play any easier in general, Comp players can go marines every round and completely control even 24 player servers... But that is not a valid argument against bhop, more an argument for proper matchmaking and ranking. Part of the purpose of good skill based movement is to bring better balance to pubs also, and let alien and marine skill levels scale better, and more evenly.
<!--quoteo(post=2035423:date=Nov 27 2012, 12:36 AM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Nov 27 2012, 12:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035423"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->another example is Quake 3 CPM, or "promode". it attempted to add some depth of timing armors in the game by removing the second counter on the clock. so instead of 9:25, you would see 9:xx. this made it slightly more difficult to time armors. following my same logic, I completely disagree with this change. do you want a player to win because he's better at innately timing an item? or, would you rather have a player win because he was able to outposition and outplay his opponent? it led to much more exciting fights when both players knew exactly when the armor was going to spawn, and had to plan accordingly. in Quakelive it's much easier to see the depth of strategy and planning that goes into attacking an armor spawn, not just "oh hey I remembered it spawned three seconds earlier so I grabbed it."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a CPM player, having no timer certainly adds skill depth to duels. I do want the player to win who is better, and that includes armour timing skill and map control.
CPM actually has proper skill-based movement. No surprise that the skill ceiling is higher than NS. Actually, it's probably so high it never plateaus.
<!--quoteo(post=2035646:date=Nov 26 2012, 11:43 PM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Nov 26 2012, 11:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a CPM player, having no timer certainly adds skill depth to duels. I do want the player to win who is better, and that includes armour timing skill and map control.
CPM actually has proper skill-based movement. No surprise that the skill ceiling is higher than NS. Actually, it's probably so high it never plateaus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not saying it doesn't add skill one way or the other. it requires more APM in Broodwar to manage your units, that's a fact. it's a question of where you want the gameplay to be focused. coming from CPM to Quakelive, I personally prefer the heavier thought process that comes into defending key points. some people prefer it the other way, and that's what's great about the games. while CPM can definitely be argued one way other the other, the lack of skill movement in NS2 cannot be.
<!--quoteo(post=2035446:date=Nov 26 2012, 08:03 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Nov 26 2012, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121930" target="_blank">scripting can be addressed</a>. the question of learning has also been addressed by Fana in earlier posts in this thread.
I'd like you to stop pretending that your ulterior motive isn't that you don't want bunnyhop and ONLY not bunnyhop because you don't know how to do it and want to keep players from getting better than you.
do you see how ridiculous that sounds? I can make silly assumptions too!
but, to answer again, I've already stated that bunnyhopping is not necessarily required for Skulks, just <i>any</i> form of skill movement. it just so happens that bunnyhopping and air acceleration happens to be the most tried and tested mechanic across probably dozens of competitive games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As dirty as it makes me feel, I actually agree with Temphage.
I want to preface what I'm about to say by stating that I DEARLY love the gold source movement mechanics, when many NS players moved onto all types of other games, TF2, Dystopia, or just different communities. One of my main haunts became xtreme-jumps.eu. I got HEAVILY into KZ jumping, helped a small degree with the development of KZ mod, worked my own skill to the level where I could get close to some of the easier world record runs on my favorite maps, and rubbed shoulders with some of the "pro" jumpers. KZ jumping, as far as mastering the ins and outs of the HL engine movement mechanics, is MILES ahead where any of the top NS players ever reached in terms of skill with the manipulation of HL based movement. NS felt very clunky after speedrunning insane jump maps in CS 1.6
However, the way Halflife handled bunnyhopping was far from the pinnacle of what is possible in terms of skill based movement systems, and there are many problems with it. On a fundamental level, the fact that your primary speed gain is mid air, as opposed to from any interaction with the ground, combined with virtually requiring a script in order to do it to an ideal level, and the pure lack of intuitiveness caused by needing to not touch the forward button in order to move forward at the highest level of efficiency.
Bunnyhopping was VERY fun, there was a lot of skill to it, but aside from those two things it was basically stupid and nonsensical. It was the kind of thing you would never figure out if you weren't reverse engineering the movement code of the game engine. There was really no basis to the mechanic that made it in any way logical to the common conception of realistic physics, and there was nothing about it that was organic to discover or master without intimate knowledge of what was basically a broken attempt at a representation of phyiscs.
Seeing the promise of the early versions of wall jumping alone should show us what else is possible.
The latest patch has been a step backwards, it's dropped the skill ceiling by severely impeding one of the most promising aspects of the skill based movement system that was beginning to be explored. I do not think we should be happy about what's going on. But at the same time I think trying to go back to the bhop of NS1 would be similar to trying to remove the alien commander at this point, or just dumping dumb game mechanics like the HMG back into the game. NS2 can do better than that.
I don't want a new skill based game where I have already mastered all the skills I need to excel in an old game I played long ago. I want a game that gives me new skills to master.
The need of scripts and no-W argument has been answered like 10 times in this thread, I let you look for it.
Maybe you guys should get a bit more concrete about the movement mechanics, think of the poor dev that is reading this thread and need to improve the current wall jump.
For example, what do you think of jump behaving differently on the ground and on the walls ? wouldn't it be more consistent if the jump would behave the same in all the cases?
What about changing your speed direction, should you be able to change it instantaneously when jumping?
<!--quoteo(post=2035697:date=Nov 27 2012, 06:02 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 27 2012, 06:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The need of scripts and no-W argument has been answered like 10 times in this thread, I let you look for it.
Maybe you guys should get a bit more concrete about the movement mechanics, think of the poor dev that is reading this thread and need to improve the current wall jump.
For example, what do you think of jump behaving differently on the ground and on the walls ? wouldn't it be more consistent if the jump would behave the same in all the cases?
What about changing your speed direction, should you be able to change it instantaneously when jumping?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My suggestions: I like being able to maintain speed along the ground, I'd like purely ground based movement to be faster to a smaller degree. I think I'd prefer something along the lines of Quake 3 strafe jumping to halflife bunnyhopping for actual ground based speed accelleration, because it feels very natural and sensical, like you're springing off your back leg and hefting yourself forwards simply by the movements you're completing with the mouse and keyboard. but the most adventitious speed boosts should come from wall jumping. In that way you'd be combining the really nice strafe launch mechanics of quake 3, with the neat new walljump mechanics we have in NS2, and the air control mechanics of the NS2, for hopefully something where the sum is greater than any of the component parts.
Marine movement in NS2 is garbage. The only thing I like is ledge climbing. The problem with marine movement is that it needs to be slower than skulks and fades. The skill from marine movement should be more about getting around speed penalties for risky manuevers, rather than outright balls to the wall flying. I'd like the sprint key to extremely quickly fade off from the boost it provides, so the ideal 'hold w' sprint requires releasing and repressing the sprint key at some correct timing. There should be a strafe jump mechanic in place for the marines as well, but it would be for single launch jumps, not for combo'd jumps as it is for skulks. When the marine lands a jump, he rapidly decelerates (by default), so it's not really feasible to combo jumps together. The deceleration would be curved, and the duration of the deceleration and reacceleration could depend on the distance fallen. If the marine player hits the duck key immediately after landing, he can roll out of his landing to signifigantly reduce the penalty of the deceleration, however, during the roll he'd also be unable to shoot skulks, and finishing the role would return him only to the default run speed. Max sprint speed if held would be roughly equal to jump rolling max speed, but wouldn't have the disadvantage of being unable to shoot half the time. The jump stuff is mostly for being able to navigate gaps and efficiently move through adverse terrain. While jumping, and mid air, pressing the duck key should impart some fixed amount of upwards motion. Timing a proper duck jump can give you a significantly higher maximum jump height (maybe about an extra 1/4th of the max jump height), but the jump must be timed correctly for maximum results. To jump for the longest distance, you would leave the duck key held down, but you'd be unable to roll out of long jumps.
In all cases I'd like a very slight acceleration possible through air control mechanics similar to HL engine bhopping, Keeping the forward key held down would not detract from the effect however for the sake of keeping the mechanic more intuitive. The feeling should be more of helecoptoring your arms and legs in the air for extra air control, rather than a feeling of having a rocket pack strapped to your ass. I would lean towards keeping the ideal speeds of mouse curve for maximum acceleration fairly low compared to HL's bhopping. In any case, this should be something that can be omitted for the majority of play, it would only be thrown in every now and then by really high end players, and those attempting trick jumps at the limits of what is possible in the engine (sort of like long jumping in KZ, you don't see too many players regularly utilizing it during game play, it's just a bit too distracting to trying to shoot people)
That would be my dream movement system so far. Although I really think there's a lot of ways this could be done "right". Ultimately to me, skill based movement and a system that's intuitive to figure out should be the top 2 priorities for both marine and alien movement.
I REALLY love the NS2 lerk so far. It has such a great feeling.
Comments
BTW, did you know that developers never intended the now amazing display of skill that is marine splitting against banelings? Imagine how the game would be if they made it impossible to split marines!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some unintended mechanics are interesting, some are not. bunnyhopping has more in common with worker mining micro than muta micro. Please don't try to lecture me on bw.
Just because people dont want to put forth the effort in mechanics like those doesnt make them bad or boring... Personally I find bunyhopping enjoyable and so do alot of people, what is FUN to someone is completely opinionated, so using that as a con is really completely subjective, and a really poor argument to base your judgment on.
And for anyone confused here, no one is arguing for bunnyhop back for marines... It was removed in NS1 after version 2.0, and that is how it should be... This discussion focuses solely on aliens.
For me one of the best things about bunnyhopping was how fluent it was. When you got good at it, <b>you literally didnt have to think about it</b>. You just did it. It was as natural to you as holding forward and turning is to most players. If the devs can get walljumping to a similar state of fun/usefulness, I'l be happy with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
I like the <i>idea</i> of walljumping, but I'm not super fond of the <i>current implementation</i> of walljumping. It'd be nice to see it integrated with some form of ground-based movement system - be that bunnyhopping, strafe jumping, double-tap dodging or something else entirely.
As far as I'm aware, much of the fondness for bunnyhopping doesn't come from it necessarily being the ideal choice for NS2, but from it being a proven skill-based movement system across many other FPS.
If you want to know about similar phenomenon I highly suggest you look into Gunz: The Duel. Gunz is a poorly developed f2p TPS that looks like your average korean game, and it would be completely craptastic and nobody would play it if it wasn't for all the crazy movement bugs that game has. Even though the game is pay2win, has completely ###### balancing and almost everything about it is totally awful it still has a healthy playerbase just because of its accidental skill-based movement. It was patched out after a while, and nobody was playing it anymore. The developers realized their mistake and reverted the changes eventually, returning its playerbase to what it once was. It's never too late is a lesson worth learning, and if a korean f2p game developer can realize that so can UWE.
Oh yea and if you think bhop is cheating you should have been around when I played doom without mouselook. Then those scripting b-sterds came with their expensive external devices, kudos to id for showing against cheating though. Surely the ability to have perfectly precise aim will never be a thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Take note of this UWE. An obscure Korean f2p game has players in it.
Meanwhile, TF2 combines the absolute perfect balance of non absurd movement skills and proceeds to take a giant dump on said Korean game. It keeps the skill disparity at a much more reasonable level and allows new/pub players to enjoy the game without being circle strafed by a marine stuck in a jump animation travelling at 300km/h. That's only fun for the 1% who can also execute the skill.
Just because something requires a high level of time investment/practice doesn't mean it fits. Unless of course you want some niche game that has a community of 100 players.
First, should it be surface based or jump based ?
<b>1.</b> Surface (ground, wall, etc) based. You don't need to jump repeatedly.
I don't really know what you could do there. Skying is a kind of surface based movement, some
sort of usage of downward slope could be used (like with the gorge belly-slide) but it's kind of limited
because the maps are not designed for it, and it's not really suited for the game style.
All I can think of is this: type AWD repeatedly on your keyboard to make a running horse sound and move
your mouse up and down like if you were riding a horse. It would make you gain speed somehow.
It's kind of stupid but it would look funny at least.
Conclusion. It's not easy to come up with a pure ground system, any other ideas ?
That leave us with:
<b>2.</b> Jump based system.
First question, which surface should be used to jump. The possibilities are:
0. All surfaces.
1. Ground only
2. Walls only
3. Ceiling only
4. Combinations of 1-3.
0. is the most desirable one: it's consistent, it has a minimum numbers of rules (you don't need extra rules to deal with wall vs ground).
Second question, where should the speed-up come from, should it be a continuous progressive speed-up, or a sudden acceleration ?
Third question, should the ability to change your velocity direction increase or decrease with your speed? Should it become harder to control your skulk when going fast or easier ? Or not change at all ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regarding point 1. I think if you think of the world as a 2D plane you're gonna have a bad time designing an interesting skill based movement mechanic. Compare sprinters to parkour. Not that there isn't something extremely impressive to high level sprinting, but if you ask me which takes more "skill" I wouldn't hesitate for a second in my answer. Skill based movement can come from making the movement system faster if you hit an ideal set of circumstances, but it can also come from removing slowdowns imposed by the game using certain techniques (the back dodge in NS/NS2 for marines is a great example of this, you're not going over your maxium speed, moving forward, you're using your strafe speed to get around the backpedal speed cap). It's not ALWAYS bad for a movement system to involve getting off the ground, and that's where I think the real goldmine is for marines in NS2. Little things here and there that make techniques like cresting railings climbing stairs, descending ramps, what not, slower if they aren't managed properly. It's also not bad to include the jump, duck, and alt move command use liberally as long as they are managed intelligently and at the same time there's a level of intuitiveness to them.
As said before comp players already can completely destroy pubs in this game even, bunnyhopping isnt going to make that worse really. Proper matchmaking, and a ranking system is what fixes that, not making the game completely skilless. That is not a valid argument against bunnyhopping.
walljumping is in NS2. bunnyhopping is better than NS2. therefore, bunnyhopping should be in NS2 instead of walljumping.
1. bunnyhopping is inherent to every entity in the game, aside from lerks. fades, onoses, and marines cannot wall jump.
2. walljumping is about as intuitive as bunnyhopping.
3. walljumping makes just about as much sense graphically as bunnyhopping.
4. bunnyhopping can be made easier to learn through allowing the user to hold space to jump.
5. bunnyhopping is readily available almost anywhere on a map, unlike wall jumping which requires you to be next to a wall.
for more proof, join a ns2:c server. the movement instantly feels a thousand times better. originally i thought the reason for not including bunnyhopping was that it would be too hard to duplicate (flayra said it somewhere), but ns2:c is proof that it clearly can't be that difficult. at this point the omission of bunnyhopping is kind of insulting since walljump is in the game, but honestly i gave up on ns2 a looooooong time ago. bunnyhopping is not going to be re-added no matter how much we beg or pester flayra.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) is this even an argument?
2) no, it's more intuitive. it makes sense to gain speed as you're falling. it makes sense to gain speed if you're springing off the wall. it makes 0 sense to magically have negative air friction by strafing while slowly moving your mouse back and forth.
3) see #2
4) wat
5) ok, so walljumping requires MORE skill to use properly than bhop. this flies in the face of every 'omg no skillbased movement in ns2' argument ever. the huge argument against walljump is that it takes like 1 hour to learn to use it properly. how is this a detriment? the big thing about movement is that it should be easy to get into. anyone can learn how to walljump. the hard part is using it in effective ways, learning routes, getting effective use out of it in battle.
i played ns2:c and the movement didn't feel that much better than vanilla ns2, and in large part it's due to a lack of walljump. i think you just have nostalgia goggles on and can't adapt to new movement mechanics.
No one is saying that skill based mechanics need to be hard to learn, more that there need to be a skill curve and progression to them. Wallhop can be learned in an hour and mastered in a day... That doesnt even remotely compare to aiming as a marine.
The biggest problem I have with walljump is that it's overly reliant on map geometry and oftentimes any extra speed you got from a walljump is negated by how you had to go out of your way to get the next walljump.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121930" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=121930</a>
walljump is no different, and we have already played against teams who are using macros to exploit spamming jump. this is <i>already</i> an issue, and it has nothing to do with bunnyhopping.
regarding Starcraft and bothersome mechanics:
I love that you brought this up, because it actually ties into my previous point quite well.
quick ancient history: Brood War didn't allow you to select more than one building at a time. Starcraft II removed this mechanic, so you could select three Barracks, press "A" three times, and a marine would build out of each Barracks. many people were outraged that this simplification made it "easier" to play the game. well... yes and no. in the end, as a developer, you have to make the decision as to what you want your players to focus on.
removing the limit on building select and allowing for automine allows players to stop focusing on arbitrary repitition tasks and instead focus their energy on other tasks such as army management and micro (unfortunately SCII did remove a lot of micro mechanics so this is slightly theorycraft :E). do you want a player to win because he's better at sending a probe to mine every 30 seconds, or do you want a player to win because of decisionmaking or micro? from a gameplay standpoint, it's pretty obvious which one is superior.
another example is Quake 3 CPM, or "promode". it attempted to add some depth of timing armors in the game by removing the second counter on the clock. so instead of 9:25, you would see 9:xx. this made it slightly more difficult to time armors.
following my same logic, I completely disagree with this change. do you want a player to win because he's better at innately timing an item? or, would you rather have a player win because he was able to outposition and outplay his opponent? it led to much more exciting fights when both players knew exactly when the armor was going to spawn, and had to plan accordingly. in Quakelive it's much easier to see the depth of strategy and planning that goes into attacking an armor spawn, not just "oh hey I remembered it spawned three seconds earlier so I grabbed it."
it's a question of what you want players to focus on and how much each mechanic adds to gameplay. comparing bunnyhopping to automine is just garbage when you consider the massive amount of depth and beauty that movement adds to a competitive game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The biggest problem I have with walljump is that it's overly reliant on map geometry and oftentimes any extra speed you got from a walljump is negated by how you had to go out of your way to get the next walljump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
we're all pretty much with you on this one. adding both and refining both would be incredible, it's currently the best system I can foresee.
The biggest problem I have with walljump is that it's overly reliant on map geometry and oftentimes any extra speed you got from a walljump is negated by how you had to go out of your way to get the next walljump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about just add bunnyhop and keep the walljumping in(hopefully a bit refined though).
Give the players freedom when it comes to skulk movement (within reasonable limits of course), and its up to them to develop the skill to make the most out of it, instead of just having a single mechanic of dropping off of a ceiling and thats it.
So you're vehemently against bunnyhopping but perfectly ok with wall jumping? Right.
We're talking about a mechanic that you're able to discover the first time you jump off a wall with a skulk vs. the hidden wizardry of using a 3jump script + airstrafe + wiggling your mouse around.
I'd like you people to at least stop pretending that your ulterior motive here isn't that you just want bunnyhop and ONLY bunnyhop because you already know how to do it and only want to monopolize your skill.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121930" target="_blank">scripting can be addressed</a>. the question of learning has also been addressed by Fana in earlier posts in this thread.
<!--quoteo(post=2035441:date=Nov 26 2012, 04:59 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 26 2012, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like you people to at least stop pretending that your ulterior motive here isn't that you just want bunnyhop and ONLY bunnyhop because you already know how to do it and only want to monopolize your skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like you to stop pretending that your ulterior motive isn't that you don't want bunnyhop and ONLY not bunnyhop because you don't know how to do it and want to keep players from getting better than you.
do you see how ridiculous that sounds? I can make silly assumptions too!
but, to answer again, I've already stated that bunnyhopping is not necessarily required for Skulks, just <i>any</i> form of skill movement. it just so happens that bunnyhopping and air acceleration happens to be the most tried and tested mechanic across probably dozens of competitive games.
You are not everybody. Plenty of people care about competition. Also how is spamming jump between two walls then running off in a straight line intuitive.
Both are equally unintuitive.
Both could be worked into NS2.
Also I was never amazing at bunny hopping. I was above average sure, but I never completed any of the bunnyhop maps that were designed to truly test you.
So bunny hopping is bad because its origin was incidental. So then if bunny hopping was intended from the beginning you apparently, by your own logic, would have no issue with it? I've always found this point of view a bit curious because it seems to me that things should be evaluated based on their own merit rather than their origin. Judging bhop based on the intent of its original coder(s) is a strange kind of bigotry.
Wallhop in its current form is no more discoverable than bunnyhopping was, the average player isnt going to jump off a wall and fall and realize, hey I gained speed... And if by some chance they heard from someone/noticed the slight increase in speed, how long would it take them to realize that the falling part is what gained them the speed, and not jumping from the wall?
Your against bhop because its hard and needs scripts and isnt intutative. ALL OF THOSE can be solved, but you IGNORE those parts EVERY SINGLE POST, and go RIGHT BACK to focusing on the various flaws with it in NS1/TFC, all of which do not apply here.
you're right, the GSL and The International 2 are examples of forays into competitive gaming crashing and burning because no one cares about it.
<!--quoteo(post=2035449:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:06 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 26 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As was mentioned, a mechanic like Tribes' skiing is RIDICULOUSLY intuitive and incredibly easy to learn and enhances the game considerably, to such an extent that it's hard to imagine the game functioning without it. BHop doesn't work that way, and hasn't in the games its been in. Vs. Tau Jump / Conc Jumping which are deliberate, and again, intuitive?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's already quite easy to see the lack of skill movement in NS2 having a tremendous impact on gameplay, mostly in that there is nothing to master leaving the game stale, and little to separate a great player from an amazing one. if you are limited by the engine as opposed to your own individual skill, how is that even remotely fun?
<!--quoteo(post=2035449:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:06 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 26 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, bhop in counterstrike doesn't actually fix something that was 'missing' in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, mostly because no one was talking about bunnyhopping in Counter-Strike.
Wall jumping, in contrast, depends in large part on the environment, and therefore has arguably more depth since map architecture affects how you can utilize the skill. I'm sure bunnyhopping changed somewhat if you had to change vertical levels, but it's still basically on a track.
The other argument with it that I agree with is aesthetic: I do feel it looks silly, and that how goofy it looks is a bit of an immersion killer. Of course, the skulk movement animations are already kind of screwy.
People who argue against bunny hopping need to give the pro bunny hoppers the benefit of the doubt, however, and realize that they just want the game to be more interesting. To accuse people of wanting the game to just favor the experienced players more is probably false and definitely detrimental to positive discussion. I'm with the fact that the game needs some more skill based movement. I'd rather have it be more interesting than wiggling my butt through the air is all.
I reckon that if wall jumping required more timing, perhaps preventing mashing the jump button just prior to hitting the wall -- forcing good timing -- it would raise the skill ceiling quite a bit. To borrow from bunny hopping, you could have to be facing AWAY from the surface right as you jump, adding another level of difficulty.
As said before comp players already can completely destroy pubs in this game even, bunnyhopping isnt going to make that worse really. Proper matchmaking, and a ranking system is what fixes that, not making the game completely skilless. That is not a valid argument against bunnyhopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't recall Natural Selection ever originally being touted or marketed as an e-sports game.
More just a hybrid rts/fps that was awesome on its own merits without plasma wall jumping, conc jumping, bunnystrafejumpinghopping.
You sound like the typical MMO raider who puts in 23hrs a day and complains on the forum that the raid content is too easy and that there needs to be more and harder content so that the 4 players who actually get through it have something to do.
In this day and age you can't build a game around a small audience. You need to keep public play viable and enjoyable without a huge skill disparity that cuts off any new players straight away.
And actually I dont play that much of any game anymore.. mainly because there isnt a game I particularly care for much.. However I really am not an MMO player and wouldnt grind that many hours on one.
Bunnyhopping isnt going to make public play any easier in general, Comp players can go marines every round and completely control even 24 player servers... But that is not a valid argument against bhop, more an argument for proper matchmaking and ranking. Part of the purpose of good skill based movement is to bring better balance to pubs also, and let alien and marine skill levels scale better, and more evenly.
following my same logic, I completely disagree with this change. do you want a player to win because he's better at innately timing an item? or, would you rather have a player win because he was able to outposition and outplay his opponent? it led to much more exciting fights when both players knew exactly when the armor was going to spawn, and had to plan accordingly. in Quakelive it's much easier to see the depth of strategy and planning that goes into attacking an armor spawn, not just "oh hey I remembered it spawned three seconds earlier so I grabbed it."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a CPM player, having no timer certainly adds skill depth to duels. I do want the player to win who is better, and that includes armour timing skill and map control.
CPM actually has proper skill-based movement. No surprise that the skill ceiling is higher than NS. Actually, it's probably so high it never plateaus.
CPM actually has proper skill-based movement. No surprise that the skill ceiling is higher than NS. Actually, it's probably so high it never plateaus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying it doesn't add skill one way or the other. it requires more APM in Broodwar to manage your units, that's a fact. it's a question of where you want the gameplay to be focused. coming from CPM to Quakelive, I personally prefer the heavier thought process that comes into defending key points. some people prefer it the other way, and that's what's great about the games. while CPM can definitely be argued one way other the other, the lack of skill movement in NS2 cannot be.
I'd like you to stop pretending that your ulterior motive isn't that you don't want bunnyhop and ONLY not bunnyhop because you don't know how to do it and want to keep players from getting better than you.
do you see how ridiculous that sounds? I can make silly assumptions too!
but, to answer again, I've already stated that bunnyhopping is not necessarily required for Skulks, just <i>any</i> form of skill movement. it just so happens that bunnyhopping and air acceleration happens to be the most tried and tested mechanic across probably dozens of competitive games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As dirty as it makes me feel, I actually agree with Temphage.
I want to preface what I'm about to say by stating that I DEARLY love the gold source movement mechanics, when many NS players moved onto all types of other games, TF2, Dystopia, or just different communities. One of my main haunts became xtreme-jumps.eu. I got HEAVILY into KZ jumping, helped a small degree with the development of KZ mod, worked my own skill to the level where I could get close to some of the easier world record runs on my favorite maps, and rubbed shoulders with some of the "pro" jumpers. KZ jumping, as far as mastering the ins and outs of the HL engine movement mechanics, is MILES ahead where any of the top NS players ever reached in terms of skill with the manipulation of HL based movement. NS felt very clunky after speedrunning insane jump maps in CS 1.6
However, the way Halflife handled bunnyhopping was far from the pinnacle of what is possible in terms of skill based movement systems, and there are many problems with it. On a fundamental level, the fact that your primary speed gain is mid air, as opposed to from any interaction with the ground, combined with virtually requiring a script in order to do it to an ideal level, and the pure lack of intuitiveness caused by needing to not touch the forward button in order to move forward at the highest level of efficiency.
Bunnyhopping was VERY fun, there was a lot of skill to it, but aside from those two things it was basically stupid and nonsensical. It was the kind of thing you would never figure out if you weren't reverse engineering the movement code of the game engine. There was really no basis to the mechanic that made it in any way logical to the common conception of realistic physics, and there was nothing about it that was organic to discover or master without intimate knowledge of what was basically a broken attempt at a representation of phyiscs.
Seeing the promise of the early versions of wall jumping alone should show us what else is possible.
The latest patch has been a step backwards, it's dropped the skill ceiling by severely impeding one of the most promising aspects of the skill based movement system that was beginning to be explored. I do not think we should be happy about what's going on. But at the same time I think trying to go back to the bhop of NS1 would be similar to trying to remove the alien commander at this point, or just dumping dumb game mechanics like the HMG back into the game. NS2 can do better than that.
I don't want a new skill based game where I have already mastered all the skills I need to excel in an old game I played long ago. I want a game that gives me new skills to master.
Maybe you guys should get a bit more concrete about the movement mechanics, think of the poor dev that is reading this thread and need to improve the current wall jump.
For example, what do you think of jump behaving differently on the ground and on the walls ? wouldn't it be more consistent if the jump would behave the same in all the cases?
What about changing your speed direction, should you be able to change it instantaneously when jumping?
Maybe you guys should get a bit more concrete about the movement mechanics, think of the poor dev that is reading this thread and need to improve the current wall jump.
For example, what do you think of jump behaving differently on the ground and on the walls ? wouldn't it be more consistent if the jump would behave the same in all the cases?
What about changing your speed direction, should you be able to change it instantaneously when jumping?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My suggestions: I like being able to maintain speed along the ground, I'd like purely ground based movement to be faster to a smaller degree. I think I'd prefer something along the lines of Quake 3 strafe jumping to halflife bunnyhopping for actual ground based speed accelleration, because it feels very natural and sensical, like you're springing off your back leg and hefting yourself forwards simply by the movements you're completing with the mouse and keyboard. but the most adventitious speed boosts should come from wall jumping. In that way you'd be combining the really nice strafe launch mechanics of quake 3, with the neat new walljump mechanics we have in NS2, and the air control mechanics of the NS2, for hopefully something where the sum is greater than any of the component parts.
Marine movement in NS2 is garbage. The only thing I like is ledge climbing. The problem with marine movement is that it needs to be slower than skulks and fades. The skill from marine movement should be more about getting around speed penalties for risky manuevers, rather than outright balls to the wall flying. I'd like the sprint key to extremely quickly fade off from the boost it provides, so the ideal 'hold w' sprint requires releasing and repressing the sprint key at some correct timing. There should be a strafe jump mechanic in place for the marines as well, but it would be for single launch jumps, not for combo'd jumps as it is for skulks. When the marine lands a jump, he rapidly decelerates (by default), so it's not really feasible to combo jumps together. The deceleration would be curved, and the duration of the deceleration and reacceleration could depend on the distance fallen. If the marine player hits the duck key immediately after landing, he can roll out of his landing to signifigantly reduce the penalty of the deceleration, however, during the roll he'd also be unable to shoot skulks, and finishing the role would return him only to the default run speed. Max sprint speed if held would be roughly equal to jump rolling max speed, but wouldn't have the disadvantage of being unable to shoot half the time. The jump stuff is mostly for being able to navigate gaps and efficiently move through adverse terrain. While jumping, and mid air, pressing the duck key should impart some fixed amount of upwards motion. Timing a proper duck jump can give you a significantly higher maximum jump height (maybe about an extra 1/4th of the max jump height), but the jump must be timed correctly for maximum results. To jump for the longest distance, you would leave the duck key held down, but you'd be unable to roll out of long jumps.
In all cases I'd like a very slight acceleration possible through air control mechanics similar to HL engine bhopping, Keeping the forward key held down would not detract from the effect however for the sake of keeping the mechanic more intuitive. The feeling should be more of helecoptoring your arms and legs in the air for extra air control, rather than a feeling of having a rocket pack strapped to your ass. I would lean towards keeping the ideal speeds of mouse curve for maximum acceleration fairly low compared to HL's bhopping. In any case, this should be something that can be omitted for the majority of play, it would only be thrown in every now and then by really high end players, and those attempting trick jumps at the limits of what is possible in the engine (sort of like long jumping in KZ, you don't see too many players regularly utilizing it during game play, it's just a bit too distracting to trying to shoot people)
That would be my dream movement system so far. Although I really think there's a lot of ways this could be done "right". Ultimately to me, skill based movement and a system that's intuitive to figure out should be the top 2 priorities for both marine and alien movement.
I REALLY love the NS2 lerk so far. It has such a great feeling.