<!--quoteo(post=2035002:date=Nov 26 2012, 03:10 PM:name=Sueco)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sueco @ Nov 26 2012, 03:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have nothing against the idea of skill-based movement, but bunnyhopping looks insanely retarded. If you are really serious about bringing back a skill curve to movement, propose something that doesn't make the game look like a sunday morning cartoon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not like everyone isnt already jumping as much as they can to make it harder to shoot them. It wouldnt make the game look any more ridiculous, while adding a lot of depth. With proper animations, it could even look better.
<!--quoteo(post=2035030:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:38 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Nov 26 2012, 05:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035030"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not like everyone isnt already jumping as much as they can to make it harder to shoot them. It wouldnt make the game look any more ridiculous, while adding a lot of depth. With proper animations, it could even look better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is precisely my point. The game already starts to look like a joke when marines bounce around guns firing or aliens bounce like rubber balls. No need for more of that.
<!--quoteo(post=2034839:date=Nov 25 2012, 11:14 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 25 2012, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034839"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Love this thread. Only takes a couple of posts before the idiots who don't know anything about anything start spamming it with crap.
1. Marine bunnyhopping was extremely limited in NS1 since version 2.0. When people talk about bunnyhopping in NS2, they are talking about bunnyhopping for aliens. 2. It ceases to be an exploit and becomes a feature when the game is designed and balanced around it, like it was in NS1.
In a game full of "a bunch of people flying around all over the place" (walljumping, leap, blink, jetpack to name a few), how does this argument make any sense at all?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With bunnyhopping, balance would be in danger. Yes Fades and Lerks fly around...at a COST. Bunny hopping would eliminate much of that cost entirely. They have to eat up their energy pool to travel so fast. Not to mention, imagine Onos flying around the map at super speeds. It's just ridiculous. I see how "skill movement" (actually it's literally engine glitch exploit movement) might be okay in straight up deathmatch games, but not strategic games like NS.
Everyone is wanting this glitch movement exploiting back so much. Take a look at this video someone posted: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9djsllJ1E58&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9djsllJ1E58&hd=1</a>
Do you seriously want to see everyone flying around like that in NS2? Think before you speak, guys. Seriously.
<!--quoteo(post=2035040:date=Nov 26 2012, 07:45 AM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Nov 26 2012, 07:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you seriously want to see everyone flying around like that in NS2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like walljumping. Some people are amazing at it and are very hard to hit. Bunnyhopping in NS1 was rediculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't disagree with you but how can jumping repeatedly on the walls be less ridiculous than jumping repeatedly on the floor? I don't really get that part. Where does the ridiculousness lies ? It the surface orientation ? Like it the angle of the surface is bigger than 45deg it's not ridiculous, but bellow 45 it becomes ridiculous? I'm confused.
Bhop in NS is in relation to aliens, so why do people want it modeled after a mechanic found in marine based games.... I may not think wall jump is polished just yet but I think building a skill based movement around the unique alien movement is way more fun then coping and pasting bhop from ever other game.
Guess what it's still skill based, but now you have to go out and learn a new skill. (People who request bhop seem to want to be able to just reuse old skill instead of learn something new that doesn't raise the skill ceiling it just rewards lazy people who don't want to master a new technique)
While I'm a bhop fan, and wish it would come back, that video seemed like a really long winded plea to the NS2 devs to add in bhop. Sure, he had a little bit about 'skill based movement' in TF2 (lol what?) but most of his focus on the bhop mechanic itself in a general sense, NS1's gameplay, bhop in NS1, and then NS2's lack of bhop. Very bizarre video.
TF2's movement has a much higher skill ceiling than NS2's, ironically. He was stating that NS1 was a game where bhop was a major enough element that it was defined by it. He used it as an example to prove how developers are failing their players with their design decisions, the biggest example being NS2 obviously.
<!--quoteo(post=2035094:date=Nov 26 2012, 07:03 AM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Nov 26 2012, 07:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guess what it's still skill based, but now you have to go out and learn a new skill. (People who request bhop seem to want to be able to just reuse old skill instead of learn something new that doesn't raise the skill ceiling it just rewards lazy people who don't want to master a new technique)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> it's not skill based.
How is wall jumping not skill based? Sure you can get some boost from spamming space bar near a wall but to truly maximize its power you need to be able to utilize a rooms geometry and since none of the rooms are the same and player position change encounter to encounter the ideal route is always different this takes skill to recognize and skill to perform.
Lol at bhop being skill based.... You know cause because we all havnt spent 100's hours bhoping in ever game from ns1 to cs but then I maintain that people are lazy and don't want to learn new things
<!--quoteo(post=2034621:date=Nov 26 2012, 12:49 AM:name=herrsheimer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (herrsheimer @ Nov 26 2012, 12:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->English is not my language, but this video explain what i feel about skill based movement in ns2.
Walljumping is not enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% agree with the video. Thanks for sharing that. Any feature which adds skill depth to a game should be included.
<!--quoteo(post=2034630:date=Nov 26 2012, 12:54 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 26 2012, 12:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034630"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This topic has been discussed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously by the wrong people it seems.
<!--quoteo(post=2035096:date=Nov 26 2012, 03:07 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 26 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TF2's movement has a much higher skill ceiling than NS2's, ironically. He was stating that NS1 was a game where bhop was a major enough element that it was defined by it. He used it as an example to prove how developers are failing their players with their design decisions, the biggest example being NS2 obviously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lamentably, the trend for modern games is to reduce the skill depth to appease the noobs. This allows more noobs to get into the game. However, the lack of skill depth means that good players don't hang around for long and the game dies shortly after its release.
A high skill depth leads to longevity. QuakeWorld, Q3, and CS 1.6 are perfect examples and 2/3 have strong movement-based skill, while CS did initially before it was nerfed.
I still think cpma has better movement than Warsow. The combination of bunny hopping, circle jump, strafe jumping, ramp jumps, and double jumps, to name a few, is really excellent.
Took me around 1-2 hours of playing to get walljump almost perfect, didnt really take any effort.
Even though I played ns1 for 7+ years I still had not mastered bunnyhop on the same level as the best players, there were a lot of suddle things you could add to it to get little bit more speed or be little bit more unpredictable when entering a fight.
A good skill based movement mechanic is near impossible to master. It should be a similar challange as to getting to 100% marine accuracy. You can get really good at aiming but reaching 100% is humanly impossible. This gives players something to practise and rewards them for being skillful.
It does not have to be complicated to work like that, aiming is the perfect examble. I think most players realise how to point and shoot but it takes a lot of practise to be good at it. This is how walljump / skillful movement mechanic should work, be it bhop or something else.
<b>1.</b> Surface (ground, wall, etc) based. You don't need to jump repeatedly.
I don't really know what you could do there. Skying is a kind of surface based movement, some sort of usage of downward slope could be used (like with the gorge belly-slide) but it's kind of limited because the maps are not designed for it, and it's not really suited for the game style.
All I can think of is this: type AWD repeatedly on your keyboard to make a running horse sound and move your mouse up and down like if you were riding a horse. It would make you gain speed somehow. It's kind of stupid but it would look funny at least.
Conclusion. It's not easy to come up with a pure ground system, any other ideas ?
That leave us with:
<b>2.</b> Jump based system.
First question, which surface should be used to jump. The possibilities are:
0. All surfaces. 1. Ground only 2. Walls only 3. Ceiling only 4. Combinations of 1-3.
0. is the most desirable one: it's consistent, it has a minimum numbers of rules (you don't need extra rules to deal with wall vs ground).
Second question, where should the speed-up come from, should it be a continuous progressive speed-up, or a sudden acceleration ?
Third question, should the ability to change your velocity direction increase or decrease with your speed? Should it become harder to control your skulk when going fast or easier ? Or not change at all ?
So to finish, NS2 uses a jump based system, and rightly so because nobody has a clue on how to design a pure ground based one. This means that people that criticize bhop with the notion that jumping repeatedly looks stupid are in argumentative troubles.
On the choice of surface I think NS2 does it wrong, as I can't think of a reason not to pick "all surfaces" instead of "walls only".
On the third question, control and speed, I think NS2 does it wrong, high velocity should be hard to control, it should become increasingly harder to control you trajectory the faster to go. You should feels like you're about to loose control and to crash into a wall when you go fast.
<!--quoteo(post=2035114:date=Nov 26 2012, 03:35 PM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Nov 26 2012, 03:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035114"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, the lack of skill depth means that good players don't hang around for long and the game dies shortly after its release.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm really quite tired of reading garbage like this. There isn't a single shred of proof that this is true. In fact it's quite the opposite. High skill-ceiling games never flourish like they used to back in the 90s, at best they swim along with a tiny pool of players that is just large enough that they can't justify shutting the game down. Planetside was a game with a very low skill ceiling and it kept subscribed players for nearly a decade. Battlefield 3 has a somewhat low skill ceiling and a year on is still going extremely strong. Team Fortress 2, Call of Duty, Insert Any Other Game You Derisively Talk About Being Dumbed Down Here, have all sold more than their predecessors and are simply put, more popular than ever before.
On the other hand, who the ###### still even <b>makes</b> games that are "skill-centric"? UT3 was a fantastic failure. ET:QW was a pretty good game, but even despite glowing reviews and high skill gameplay, it failed. Even CS:GO failed to attract new players.
Finally, a long-term dedicated playerbase <b>DOES NOT MAKE MONEY</b>. People who have already bought the game aren't going to buy it again. If anything, these playerbases are toxic, as it usually becomes difficult for new players to join due to the huge skill ceiling. In six months, new guys are going to be joining NS2 and getting slaughtered in seconds as a skulk, or constantly be frustrated by their inability to kill a Fade who has 75-2 KDR, and quit the game.
The last thing this game needs is a community like the one NS1 had, full of elitists with bad attitudes, where it was common for a clan to join a server, stack one team, and then spawncamp the enemy team until the server emptied, and generally act like ###### all around.
Quit acting like competition and skill are the benchmarks by which fun is measured. Because it's not. You simply cannot prove whatsoever that that is true. It might be fun for YOU, but in the big picture, only a small handful of games have ever been relevant due to competition, and based on sales figures and longevity, the skill levels inherent in a game and a competitive playerbase has absolutely zero correlation with long or short term success.
<!--quoteo(post=2035002:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:10 AM:name=Sueco)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sueco @ Nov 26 2012, 05:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have nothing against the idea of skill-based movement, but bunnyhopping looks insanely retarded. If you are really serious about bringing back a skill curve to movement, propose something that doesn't make the game look like a sunday morning cartoon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. Whichever way you cut it, "Bhop" looks like an unintentional side effect of the engine (as it is). To have player models move in such a ridiculous fashion is something that is forgivable of graphics that had characters no individual discernible fingers. Silliness like that, unless it's specifically planned by the devs, won't do the game good.
<!--quoteo(post=2035161:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:09 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 26 2012, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the choice of surface I think NS2 does it wrong, as I can't think of a reason not to pick "all surfaces" instead of "walls only".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you want them to remove the skill part? Chaining jumps together on walls is half the battle, if you allow all surfaces then you just enable people to jump down and jump to maintain speed.
Wall jump is not perfect but bhop dosnt work if gravity pulls you away from the surface your jumping on (ie the roof/wall) Why are people calling for bhop when its a human based mechanic (jumping on the ground). When aliens have other surfaces to consider...
Let them continue to refine wall jump its potential is far greater then bhop for aliens...
Can you honestly say that you think NS2 will grow and thrive as a public play focused game like it is currently? Its funny how people say high skill gaming and immediately point to the 90s, when most of the high skill gaming was early after the turn of the century, and some of those games are still played in higher numbers than every other game you listed there (atleast on PC).
Point is NS2 will not do extremely well as a public play focused game, the IP and gameplay do not lend themselves to that. Thats not to say that you cannot make it fun and balanced in public games, but the higher knowledge requirements and more interactive teamwork requirements pretty much make it difficult to be recieved well.
The pool of players that would play a high skill teamplay based game is huge, denying that is just being ignorant, and shunning those players because of the implications on new players is also just as ignorant... Proper matchmaking and rankings can easily resolve those issues... Do you think new players can do anything against an organized team in DOTA or LOL?
It sounds like your just bitter about some events from NS1 where some players that probably werent very good stacked a random game, since they couldnt do well in matches. Those problems can and are easily resolved by matchmaking and ranking...
The pool of potential players for games is not a stagnant figure, more and more people have started playing games, and thats were the majority of players for COD or BF3 style games come from. Its not that older, higher skill gameplay draws less players, honestly now there are more of those players than ever, they are just scattered across tons of various games since there is no single major game to play.
<!--quoteo(post=2035173:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:28 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 26 2012, 05:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035173"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Point is NS2 will not do extremely well as a public play focused game, the IP and gameplay do not lend themselves to that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What happens when you take a faster-paced less team-focused and more casual dumbed-down gamemode based off an IP and inject it directly into the middle of a high-skill heavily team-focused game?
You get NS Combat. And Combat "killed" NS Classic - but it also rejuvenated the playerbase. Because the fact is, people didn't give a ###### about NS Classic. Playercounts were dwindling to such an extent that everyone knew each other. And Combat brought in more players, because it was more fun. It didn't kill Classic because it was a bad thing, it killed Classic because Classic was, in fact, the bad thing. You could do poorly in Combat and still have fun. If you did poor in Classic, you'd have your commander ###### at you for wasting res, your teammates ###### at you for feeding the enemy R4K, you'd constantly die in half a second by some goddamn Fade, you'd get punished by your commander by not being given weapons or armor. New players didn't want to deal with that stupid bull######, so the game stagnated.
I've seen this video before but I never caught that he refers to wigglewalking as being skill based? And then goes on to say bunnyhopping is "intuitive"? rofl
Personally I'm a huge, huge fan of skill based movement, love quake, CPMA, science and industry etc., but unlike a lot of other movement fans I'm not tied to bunnyhop. I think there are plenty of ways one could make movement interesting without using jumping as the main gimmick (which turns a lot of gamers off for some reason). For example instead of just holding a sprint button and moving X% faster, what if you held the sprint button and then had to move the mouse in a specific gesture (say, a half circle/crescent), the closer the gesture was to perfect the faster you went? This is essentially how q3 strafejumping worked with the world compass and your angle relative to your velocity. Take out the jumping so the realism crowd who hate the idea of people jumping around and recreate it and I'd be happy.
THAT SAID... I'm not entirely sure NS2 is really a game that needs it. At the end of the day, I judge a game as "needing" a movement skill gimmick based on how long you're spending moving around. While you do spend a lot of time moving around in NS2, I'd say at least half of it is spent looking up in ceilings and nooks for skulks. In other words I find plenty to keep myself busy while moving around the maps, I don't feel bored by the lack of a movement mechanic for marines.
Skulks I dunno, don't really have an opinion on them aside from walljumping sucks. I just made a jump spam bind and use that. Even less intuitive and feels crappier than bunnyhopping.
<!--quoteo(post=2034673:date=Nov 25 2012, 09:31 PM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Nov 25 2012, 09:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034673"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u><b>herrsheimer:</b></u> People grenade jumping with concussion and flag grenades<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> god I miss grenades in TF
Combat didnt kill NS1, which just shows how little you know. WOW killed NS1, and it had been slowly dying ever since. Combat filled a role of offering an easier entrance to gameplay, but if Combat was so popular and better, why is Classic still played and combat is dead?
Classic is and was the better gameplay, and most any player that tried both would agree. Combat while fun at times did not offer the replay ability and depth of Classic, and even public players recognized that and preferred Classic.
Again coming back with the same BS about players raging and insulting people... From what ive seen theres a few trolls that had that attitude, which any game has. Theres more trolls and *hit talking in COD then there ever was in NS1, looking at the few players left in a dead game is a bad example.
Kingpin had heavily exploitable movement mechanics. I played it for a while - not years, mind - at high level clan play and also owning random pub servers for fun, but it was WRONG. You had a bunch of 'hard blokes' flying around at 100mph owning the map by virtue of no-one being able to hit them (myself included, to my shame), and always getting to powerups first even if someone else was closer to it.
I set up a workshop called Kingpin Intensive Training, and worked with a map maker to design an assault course which tested every movement exploit in the engine (including a spike-trap wall from which you could only escape by perfect bunny hopping to the end of the corridor...). I trained a lot of people with that map, and during those sessions, from newbies to clan members alike. Happy days, but it was STILL WRONG.
That game could be viewed to have had a ridiculously high skill ceiling, indeed I would argue it DID have a ridiculously high skill ceiling, and only a handful of players I met were anywhere near that ceiling.
It bombed.
I applaud UWE for trying to come up with a system that is supported by some sort of logic (use of gravity to build up speed), although it's clearly still far from perfect. The VERY LAST thing I want to see, alongside clown costumes for gorges, is a movement mechanic that, when new players see it, prompts them to say 'OMG that guy is hacking.' Bunnyhopping was precisely that: that's why, even as a long-time proponent of bunnyhopping, I am now strongly against it.
Yes, I would also like to see a bit more movement skill in the game, but actually there's already a bunch of walls and ceilings we can make use of without the need for MOAR SPEEDZ that adds another dimension to skulk movement. If anything, the more pressing matter is to bring more skill to onos play, and require a smidgen less godliness to make the fade a viable unit in the mid-late game ;)
TL;DR - I've done a lot of bunnyhopping in my time. Non-intuitive engine exploits should be kept out of NS2, although I'm all for a more complex movement system that requires more skill <i>provided it is intuitive and not something that you have to be told about or stumble upon by watching videos</i>.
<!--quoteo(post=2035174:date=Nov 26 2012, 12:30 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 26 2012, 12:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You get NS Combat. And Combat "killed" NS Classic<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats actually wrong, NS1 had a growing community til world of warcraft was released. Just for an example we had more than 200 active players in Iceland before WOW, it kinda killed the community. The realese of WOW came at the worst time for natural selection but even so the game managed to stay very active for many years. It was truly an amazing game.
With some work ns2 could also become more than just an good game, it could become something amazing. Thats something I hope to see...
<!--quoteo(post=2035181:date=Nov 26 2012, 12:49 PM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Nov 26 2012, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TL;DR - I've done a lot of bunnyhopping in my time. Non-intuitive engine exploits should be kept out of NS2, although I'm all for a more complex movement system that requires more skill <i>provided it is intuitive and not something that you have to be told about or stumble upon by watching videos</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree that the old bhop was not intuitive but no one really tried to make it that way. There are ways to make this ability accessiable and less punishing to start learning. Like have players hold w while doing it was a simple way to make more palyers in ns2:c start using it right away. But in the end I don't care what mechanic will be used - while its rewarding, fun and has the necessary depth.
<!--quoteo(post=2035181:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:49 PM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Nov 26 2012, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kingpin had heavily exploitable movement mechanics. I played it for a while - not years, mind - at high level clan play and also owning random pub servers for fun, but it was WRONG. You had a bunch of 'hard blokes' flying around at 100mph owning the map by virtue of no-one being able to hit them (myself included, to my shame), and always getting to powerups first even if someone else was closer to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd love to see some videos of this :)
<!--quoteo(post=2035177:date=Nov 26 2012, 01:34 PM:name=twincannon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twincannon @ Nov 26 2012, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035177"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think there are plenty of ways one could make movement interesting without using jumping as the main gimmick (which turns a lot of gamers off for some reason)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That there are. Problem is the best examples of advanced movement are rocket/grenade jumping and bhop, and those are pretty much the only big ones. Like I said about warsow's button for dodge system and UT had dodge and walldodge as well which was amazing. Brink has a fantastic movement system as well, I spent so many hours just trying out jumps in that game, I really wish it was more popular. ( <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBQqD8mv0XM&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBQqD8mv0XM&hd=1</a> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKUevkJcgT8&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKUevkJcgT8&hd=1</a> )
<!--quoteo(post=2035177:date=Nov 26 2012, 01:34 PM:name=twincannon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twincannon @ Nov 26 2012, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035177"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->THAT SAID... I'm not entirely sure NS2 is really a game that needs it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does need it. The fact that the devs tried to do the same thing with walljumping should be proof enough, but even still playing as a skulk is a chore more than anything as it has little depth compared to the original bhopping skulk and I'm sure people that played NS1 and were good at it can agree with this. Okay ambush or fight together, anybody with half a brain can understand how to do that. Against good players? All you need to do is jump off a wall from the ceiling, yea that's some big skill based movement system right there. But what if you're farther away? Can you jump from one wall to another? Damn ###### just got real. You're the king of skulks now.
I remember bunny hopping it up in CS:Source. Nothing like an awesome bunny hop out of spawn to surprise your enemies. Problem comes in when you go competitive, bunnyhopping can change the balance of a map.. for example, on de_nuke, you can bunnyhop right from ct spawn to computer room before they have even reached inside of the lobby... you can machine gun them down, perfectly lined up. Or even worse, if you bunnyhop just right, you made no footstep sounds which gave you a distinct advantage over other players. Sure, they could do it too.. but most players would rather whine about it until it got removed by default of all servers with updates. My friend Nexile seemed to be one of the best consistant bunny hoppers in the cs community I've known...
anyone who thinks bhop looked bad hasn't for one second seen simple ns2 skulk strafing animations, let alone proficient ns2 walljumping. If i was making a decision based purely on immersiveness and how well a mechanic looked, i wouldn't struggle choosing bhop over what we have right now.
<!--quoteo(post=2035165:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:17 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 26 2012, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm really quite tired of reading garbage like this. There isn't a single shred of proof that this is true. In fact it's quite the opposite. High skill-ceiling games never flourish like they used to back in the 90s, at best they swim along with a tiny pool of players that is just large enough that they can't justify shutting the game down. Planetside was a game with a very low skill ceiling and it kept subscribed players for nearly a decade. Battlefield 3 has a somewhat low skill ceiling and a year on is still going extremely strong. Team Fortress 2, Call of Duty, Insert Any Other Game You Derisively Talk About Being Dumbed Down Here, have all sold more than their predecessors and are simply put, more popular than ever before.
On the other hand, who the ###### still even <b>makes</b> games that are "skill-centric"? UT3 was a fantastic failure. ET:QW was a pretty good game, but even despite glowing reviews and high skill gameplay, it failed. Even CS:GO failed to attract new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No-one makes them - that's the problem. CS:GO was bad.
<!--quoteo(post=2035165:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:17 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 26 2012, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Finally, a long-term dedicated playerbase <b>DOES NOT MAKE MONEY</b>. People who have already bought the game aren't going to buy it again. If anything, these playerbases are toxic, as it usually becomes difficult for new players to join due to the huge skill ceiling. In six months, new guys are going to be joining NS2 and getting slaughtered in seconds as a skulk, or constantly be frustrated by their inability to kill a Fade who has 75-2 KDR, and quit the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most players have poor attitudes and can't be bothered to learn the game if they are getting slaughtered to do the same to other players after investing some time. If they are killed 75-2 by a dominant fade, the attitude should be "wow, I wish I could fade like that and dominate" and then they would learn to play well and stick around in the community rather than moving on to a new game.
<!--quoteo(post=2035165:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:17 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 26 2012, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The last thing this game needs is a community like the one NS1 had, full of elitists with bad attitudes, where it was common for a clan to join a server, stack one team, and then spawncamp the enemy team until the server emptied, and generally act like ###### all around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People who did that were just lame, and it had nothing to do with clanning.
<!--quoteo(post=2035165:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:17 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 26 2012, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quit acting like competition and skill are the benchmarks by which fun is measured. Because it's not. You simply cannot prove whatsoever that that is true. It might be fun for YOU, but in the big picture, only a small handful of games have ever been relevant due to competition, and based on sales figures and longevity, the skill levels inherent in a game and a competitive playerbase has absolutely zero correlation with long or short term success.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Competition and skill add fun to the player who wants more than to just pub about. Pub games are pub games.
Case study CS. The competitive side was strong and led to a flourishing game which drew even more players in for the competition.
Comments
Not like everyone isnt already jumping as much as they can to make it harder to shoot them. It wouldnt make the game look any more ridiculous, while adding a lot of depth. With proper animations, it could even look better.
Which is precisely my point. The game already starts to look like a joke when marines bounce around guns firing or aliens bounce like rubber balls. No need for more of that.
1. Marine bunnyhopping was extremely limited in NS1 since version 2.0. When people talk about bunnyhopping in NS2, they are talking about bunnyhopping for aliens.
2. It ceases to be an exploit and becomes a feature when the game is designed and balanced around it, like it was in NS1.
In a game full of "a bunch of people flying around all over the place" (walljumping, leap, blink, jetpack to name a few), how does this argument make any sense at all?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With bunnyhopping, balance would be in danger. Yes Fades and Lerks fly around...at a COST. Bunny hopping would eliminate much of that cost entirely. They have to eat up their energy pool to travel so fast. Not to mention, imagine Onos flying around the map at super speeds. It's just ridiculous. I see how "skill movement" (actually it's literally engine glitch exploit movement) might be okay in straight up deathmatch games, but not strategic games like NS.
Everyone is wanting this glitch movement exploiting back so much. Take a look at this video someone posted:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9djsllJ1E58&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9djsllJ1E58&hd=1</a>
Do you seriously want to see everyone flying around like that in NS2? Think before you speak, guys. Seriously.
yes
I don't disagree with you but how can jumping repeatedly on the walls be less ridiculous than jumping repeatedly on the floor? I don't really get that part.
Where does the ridiculousness lies ? It the surface orientation ? Like it the angle of the surface is bigger than 45deg it's not ridiculous, but bellow 45 it becomes ridiculous? I'm confused.
Guess what it's still skill based, but now you have to go out and learn a new skill. (People who request bhop seem to want to be able to just reuse old skill instead of learn something new that doesn't raise the skill ceiling it just rewards lazy people who don't want to master a new technique)
He was stating that NS1 was a game where bhop was a major enough element that it was defined by it. He used it as an example to prove how developers are failing their players with their design decisions, the biggest example being NS2 obviously.
it's not skill based.
Lol at bhop being skill based.... You know cause because we all havnt spent 100's hours bhoping in ever game from ns1 to cs but then I maintain that people are lazy and don't want to learn new things
You just maxed the current walljumping skill.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1HowpVX-hU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1HowpVX-hU</a>
Walljumping is not enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% agree with the video. Thanks for sharing that. Any feature which adds skill depth to a game should be included.
<!--quoteo(post=2034630:date=Nov 26 2012, 12:54 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 26 2012, 12:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034630"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This topic has been discussed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously by the wrong people it seems.
<!--quoteo(post=2035096:date=Nov 26 2012, 03:07 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 26 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TF2's movement has a much higher skill ceiling than NS2's, ironically.
He was stating that NS1 was a game where bhop was a major enough element that it was defined by it. He used it as an example to prove how developers are failing their players with their design decisions, the biggest example being NS2 obviously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lamentably, the trend for modern games is to reduce the skill depth to appease the noobs. This allows more noobs to get into the game. However, the lack of skill depth means that good players don't hang around for long and the game dies shortly after its release.
A high skill depth leads to longevity. QuakeWorld, Q3, and CS 1.6 are perfect examples and 2/3 have strong movement-based skill, while CS did initially before it was nerfed.
I still think cpma has better movement than Warsow. The combination of bunny hopping, circle jump, strafe jumping, ramp jumps, and double jumps, to name a few, is really excellent.
Even though I played ns1 for 7+ years I still had not mastered bunnyhop on the same level as the best players, there were a lot of suddle things you could add to it to get little bit more speed or be little bit more unpredictable when entering a fight.
A good skill based movement mechanic is near impossible to master. It should be a similar challange as to getting to 100% marine accuracy. You can get really good at aiming but reaching 100% is humanly impossible. This gives players something to practise and rewards them for being skillful.
It does not have to be complicated to work like that, aiming is the perfect examble. I think most players realise how to point and shoot but it takes a lot of practise to be good at it. This is how walljump / skillful movement mechanic should work, be it bhop or something else.
First, should it be surface based or jump based ?
<b>1.</b> Surface (ground, wall, etc) based. You don't need to jump repeatedly.
I don't really know what you could do there. Skying is a kind of surface based movement, some
sort of usage of downward slope could be used (like with the gorge belly-slide) but it's kind of limited
because the maps are not designed for it, and it's not really suited for the game style.
All I can think of is this: type AWD repeatedly on your keyboard to make a running horse sound and move
your mouse up and down like if you were riding a horse. It would make you gain speed somehow.
It's kind of stupid but it would look funny at least.
Conclusion. It's not easy to come up with a pure ground system, any other ideas ?
That leave us with:
<b>2.</b> Jump based system.
First question, which surface should be used to jump. The possibilities are:
0. All surfaces.
1. Ground only
2. Walls only
3. Ceiling only
4. Combinations of 1-3.
0. is the most desirable one: it's consistent, it has a minimum numbers of rules (you don't need extra rules to deal with wall vs ground).
Second question, where should the speed-up come from, should it be a continuous progressive speed-up, or a sudden acceleration ?
Third question, should the ability to change your velocity direction increase or decrease with your speed? Should it become harder to control your skulk when going fast or easier ? Or not change at all ?
On the choice of surface I think NS2 does it wrong, as I can't think of a reason not to pick "all surfaces" instead of "walls only".
On the third question, control and speed, I think NS2 does it wrong, high velocity should be hard to control, it should become increasingly harder to control you trajectory the faster to go. You should feels like you're about to loose control and to crash into a wall when you go fast.
I'm really quite tired of reading garbage like this. There isn't a single shred of proof that this is true. In fact it's quite the opposite. High skill-ceiling games never flourish like they used to back in the 90s, at best they swim along with a tiny pool of players that is just large enough that they can't justify shutting the game down. Planetside was a game with a very low skill ceiling and it kept subscribed players for nearly a decade. Battlefield 3 has a somewhat low skill ceiling and a year on is still going extremely strong. Team Fortress 2, Call of Duty, Insert Any Other Game You Derisively Talk About Being Dumbed Down Here, have all sold more than their predecessors and are simply put, more popular than ever before.
On the other hand, who the ###### still even <b>makes</b> games that are "skill-centric"? UT3 was a fantastic failure. ET:QW was a pretty good game, but even despite glowing reviews and high skill gameplay, it failed. Even CS:GO failed to attract new players.
Finally, a long-term dedicated playerbase <b>DOES NOT MAKE MONEY</b>. People who have already bought the game aren't going to buy it again. If anything, these playerbases are toxic, as it usually becomes difficult for new players to join due to the huge skill ceiling. In six months, new guys are going to be joining NS2 and getting slaughtered in seconds as a skulk, or constantly be frustrated by their inability to kill a Fade who has 75-2 KDR, and quit the game.
The last thing this game needs is a community like the one NS1 had, full of elitists with bad attitudes, where it was common for a clan to join a server, stack one team, and then spawncamp the enemy team until the server emptied, and generally act like ###### all around.
Quit acting like competition and skill are the benchmarks by which fun is measured. Because it's not. You simply cannot prove whatsoever that that is true. It might be fun for YOU, but in the big picture, only a small handful of games have ever been relevant due to competition, and based on sales figures and longevity, the skill levels inherent in a game and a competitive playerbase has absolutely zero correlation with long or short term success.
I agree. Whichever way you cut it, "Bhop" looks like an unintentional side effect of the engine (as it is). To have player models move in such a ridiculous fashion is something that is forgivable of graphics that had characters no individual discernible fingers. Silliness like that, unless it's specifically planned by the devs, won't do the game good.
So you want them to remove the skill part? Chaining jumps together on walls is half the battle, if you allow all surfaces then you just enable people to jump down and jump to maintain speed.
Wall jump is not perfect but bhop dosnt work if gravity pulls you away from the surface your jumping on (ie the roof/wall) Why are people calling for bhop when its a human based mechanic (jumping on the ground). When aliens have other surfaces to consider...
Let them continue to refine wall jump its potential is far greater then bhop for aliens...
Point is NS2 will not do extremely well as a public play focused game, the IP and gameplay do not lend themselves to that. Thats not to say that you cannot make it fun and balanced in public games, but the higher knowledge requirements and more interactive teamwork requirements pretty much make it difficult to be recieved well.
The pool of players that would play a high skill teamplay based game is huge, denying that is just being ignorant, and shunning those players because of the implications on new players is also just as ignorant... Proper matchmaking and rankings can easily resolve those issues... Do you think new players can do anything against an organized team in DOTA or LOL?
It sounds like your just bitter about some events from NS1 where some players that probably werent very good stacked a random game, since they couldnt do well in matches. Those problems can and are easily resolved by matchmaking and ranking...
The pool of potential players for games is not a stagnant figure, more and more people have started playing games, and thats were the majority of players for COD or BF3 style games come from. Its not that older, higher skill gameplay draws less players, honestly now there are more of those players than ever, they are just scattered across tons of various games since there is no single major game to play.
What happens when you take a faster-paced less team-focused and more casual dumbed-down gamemode based off an IP and inject it directly into the middle of a high-skill heavily team-focused game?
You get NS Combat. And Combat "killed" NS Classic - but it also rejuvenated the playerbase. Because the fact is, people didn't give a ###### about NS Classic. Playercounts were dwindling to such an extent that everyone knew each other. And Combat brought in more players, because it was more fun. It didn't kill Classic because it was a bad thing, it killed Classic because Classic was, in fact, the bad thing. You could do poorly in Combat and still have fun. If you did poor in Classic, you'd have your commander ###### at you for wasting res, your teammates ###### at you for feeding the enemy R4K, you'd constantly die in half a second by some goddamn Fade, you'd get punished by your commander by not being given weapons or armor. New players didn't want to deal with that stupid bull######, so the game stagnated.
Personally I'm a huge, huge fan of skill based movement, love quake, CPMA, science and industry etc., but unlike a lot of other movement fans I'm not tied to bunnyhop. I think there are plenty of ways one could make movement interesting without using jumping as the main gimmick (which turns a lot of gamers off for some reason). For example instead of just holding a sprint button and moving X% faster, what if you held the sprint button and then had to move the mouse in a specific gesture (say, a half circle/crescent), the closer the gesture was to perfect the faster you went? This is essentially how q3 strafejumping worked with the world compass and your angle relative to your velocity. Take out the jumping so the realism crowd who hate the idea of people jumping around and recreate it and I'd be happy.
THAT SAID... I'm not entirely sure NS2 is really a game that needs it. At the end of the day, I judge a game as "needing" a movement skill gimmick based on how long you're spending moving around. While you do spend a lot of time moving around in NS2, I'd say at least half of it is spent looking up in ceilings and nooks for skulks. In other words I find plenty to keep myself busy while moving around the maps, I don't feel bored by the lack of a movement mechanic for marines.
Skulks I dunno, don't really have an opinion on them aside from walljumping sucks. I just made a jump spam bind and use that. Even less intuitive and feels crappier than bunnyhopping.
<!--quoteo(post=2034673:date=Nov 25 2012, 09:31 PM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Nov 25 2012, 09:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034673"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u><b>herrsheimer:</b></u>
People grenade jumping with concussion and flag grenades<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
god I miss grenades in TF
Classic is and was the better gameplay, and most any player that tried both would agree. Combat while fun at times did not offer the replay ability and depth of Classic, and even public players recognized that and preferred Classic.
Again coming back with the same BS about players raging and insulting people... From what ive seen theres a few trolls that had that attitude, which any game has. Theres more trolls and *hit talking in COD then there ever was in NS1, looking at the few players left in a dead game is a bad example.
I set up a workshop called Kingpin Intensive Training, and worked with a map maker to design an assault course which tested every movement exploit in the engine (including a spike-trap wall from which you could only escape by perfect bunny hopping to the end of the corridor...). I trained a lot of people with that map, and during those sessions, from newbies to clan members alike. Happy days, but it was STILL WRONG.
That game could be viewed to have had a ridiculously high skill ceiling, indeed I would argue it DID have a ridiculously high skill ceiling, and only a handful of players I met were anywhere near that ceiling.
It bombed.
I applaud UWE for trying to come up with a system that is supported by some sort of logic (use of gravity to build up speed), although it's clearly still far from perfect. The VERY LAST thing I want to see, alongside clown costumes for gorges, is a movement mechanic that, when new players see it, prompts them to say 'OMG that guy is hacking.' Bunnyhopping was precisely that: that's why, even as a long-time proponent of bunnyhopping, I am now strongly against it.
Yes, I would also like to see a bit more movement skill in the game, but actually there's already a bunch of walls and ceilings we can make use of without the need for MOAR SPEEDZ that adds another dimension to skulk movement. If anything, the more pressing matter is to bring more skill to onos play, and require a smidgen less godliness to make the fade a viable unit in the mid-late game ;)
TL;DR - I've done a lot of bunnyhopping in my time. Non-intuitive engine exploits should be kept out of NS2, although I'm all for a more complex movement system that requires more skill <i>provided it is intuitive and not something that you have to be told about or stumble upon by watching videos</i>.
Thats actually wrong, NS1 had a growing community til world of warcraft was released. Just for an example we had more than 200 active players in Iceland before WOW, it kinda killed the community. The realese of WOW came at the worst time for natural selection but even so the game managed to stay very active for many years. It was truly an amazing game.
With some work ns2 could also become more than just an good game, it could become something amazing. Thats something I hope to see...
<!--quoteo(post=2035181:date=Nov 26 2012, 12:49 PM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Nov 26 2012, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TL;DR - I've done a lot of bunnyhopping in my time. Non-intuitive engine exploits should be kept out of NS2, although I'm all for a more complex movement system that requires more skill <i>provided it is intuitive and not something that you have to be told about or stumble upon by watching videos</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that the old bhop was not intuitive but no one really tried to make it that way. There are ways to make this ability accessiable and less punishing to start learning. Like have players hold w while doing it was a simple way to make more palyers in ns2:c start using it right away.
But in the end I don't care what mechanic will be used - while its rewarding, fun and has the necessary depth.
I'd love to see some videos of this :)
That there are. Problem is the best examples of advanced movement are rocket/grenade jumping and bhop, and those are pretty much the only big ones. Like I said about warsow's button for dodge system and UT had dodge and walldodge as well which was amazing. Brink has a fantastic movement system as well, I spent so many hours just trying out jumps in that game, I really wish it was more popular. ( <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBQqD8mv0XM&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBQqD8mv0XM&hd=1</a> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKUevkJcgT8&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKUevkJcgT8&hd=1</a> )
<!--quoteo(post=2035177:date=Nov 26 2012, 01:34 PM:name=twincannon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twincannon @ Nov 26 2012, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035177"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->THAT SAID... I'm not entirely sure NS2 is really a game that needs it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does need it. The fact that the devs tried to do the same thing with walljumping should be proof enough, but even still playing as a skulk is a chore more than anything as it has little depth compared to the original bhopping skulk and I'm sure people that played NS1 and were good at it can agree with this. Okay ambush or fight together, anybody with half a brain can understand how to do that. Against good players? All you need to do is jump off a wall from the ceiling, yea that's some big skill based movement system right there. But what if you're farther away? Can you jump from one wall to another? Damn ###### just got real. You're the king of skulks now.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1KfOiPvL8U" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1KfOiPvL8U</a>
On the other hand, who the ###### still even <b>makes</b> games that are "skill-centric"? UT3 was a fantastic failure. ET:QW was a pretty good game, but even despite glowing reviews and high skill gameplay, it failed. Even CS:GO failed to attract new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No-one makes them - that's the problem. CS:GO was bad.
<!--quoteo(post=2035165:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:17 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 26 2012, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Finally, a long-term dedicated playerbase <b>DOES NOT MAKE MONEY</b>. People who have already bought the game aren't going to buy it again. If anything, these playerbases are toxic, as it usually becomes difficult for new players to join due to the huge skill ceiling. In six months, new guys are going to be joining NS2 and getting slaughtered in seconds as a skulk, or constantly be frustrated by their inability to kill a Fade who has 75-2 KDR, and quit the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most players have poor attitudes and can't be bothered to learn the game if they are getting slaughtered to do the same to other players after investing some time. If they are killed 75-2 by a dominant fade, the attitude should be "wow, I wish I could fade like that and dominate" and then they would learn to play well and stick around in the community rather than moving on to a new game.
<!--quoteo(post=2035165:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:17 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 26 2012, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The last thing this game needs is a community like the one NS1 had, full of elitists with bad attitudes, where it was common for a clan to join a server, stack one team, and then spawncamp the enemy team until the server emptied, and generally act like ###### all around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People who did that were just lame, and it had nothing to do with clanning.
<!--quoteo(post=2035165:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:17 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 26 2012, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quit acting like competition and skill are the benchmarks by which fun is measured. Because it's not. You simply cannot prove whatsoever that that is true. It might be fun for YOU, but in the big picture, only a small handful of games have ever been relevant due to competition, and based on sales figures and longevity, the skill levels inherent in a game and a competitive playerbase has absolutely zero correlation with long or short term success.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Competition and skill add fun to the player who wants more than to just pub about. Pub games are pub games.
Case study CS. The competitive side was strong and led to a flourishing game which drew even more players in for the competition.