The rise and fall of bunnyhopping
herrsheimer
Join Date: 2008-06-06 Member: 64403Members
Join Date: 2008-06-06 Member: 64403Members
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Yep. . . covers most of them
I think the best movement based skill was from Mega TF
People grenade jumping with concussion and flag grenades, people with jetpacks and grapple hooks that worked, people that could jump huge distances as a Heavy using the 20mm cannon
Basically, they have made jumping/climbing challenge maps in CS 1.6 and they race on them to the top, the skill of those players at exploiting the movement mechanics of gold source is much much higher than that of any NS player I had ever seen. NS was just a microcosm in the universe of skill based movement in games. Even CS, with it's heavily restricted movement, combined with the strafejump mechanics of goldsource had some incredible things available to players if they cared to master the underlying systems.
I'd really like a movement system in gaming with a similar upper level of depth that doesn't rely on quake airstrafe calculations, For those of us who already mastered them, they make sense, but there's really no sense of "I would have figured this out on my own eventually". Maxing out in that system was almost always a factor of accidentally wandering upon the mechanic that did what you wanted. It never really came out of trying something that was simple or seemed logical.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/XtremeJumpsEU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/user/XtremeJumpsEU</a>
it's important to note that even though <strike>Source </strike>and TF2 removed bunnyhopping, they both still have decent skill-based movement (I'm not referring to the rocket / pipe jumps). NS2 doesn't necessarily need bunnyhopping, just <i>something</i>.
oops, I had it backwards. HL2: SP had some weird "hold forward down" bunnyhopping, and no air acceleration, but the MP still retained both.
Seriously, the music in this video you would think the guys cat died.
And yeah, it was the competitive CS scene that started killing bhop. I hated them for messing with the game I had more fun with in TFC, and so did most people who played TFC with me at the time.
this is coming from someone who thinks quake 3 is basically the best-made game of all time
There's better ways to put skill ceilings in and games designed entirely for movement skills.
<!--quoteo(post=2034812:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:44 AM:name=hus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hus @ Nov 26 2012, 05:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Huge difference between using built in splash/explosive physics to conc jump across a map VS a retarded space marine moving quicker for no reason other than exploiting airmovement physics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Marine bunnyhopping was extremely limited in NS1 since version 2.0. When people talk about bunnyhopping in NS2, they are talking about bunnyhopping for aliens.
2. It ceases to be an exploit and becomes a feature when the game is designed and balanced around it, like it was in NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=2034803:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:31 AM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Nov 26 2012, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034803"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhopping just makes fun games ridiculous and a joke. Just a bunch of people flying around all over the place. Really takes away from actual gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a game full of "a bunch of people flying around all over the place" (walljumping, leap, blink, jetpack to name a few), how does this argument make any sense at all?
Bring back bunnyhop for aliens. The realism argument does not apply, because to be realistic we'd need much more input to dictate world physics than simply forward/back/strafe/jump. Movement is such a big part of alien gameplay, there needs to be a high skill ceiling and movement that is unhuman.
Bunnyhop might not be the most "realistic" but it has always been the best way to bridge that gap of possible enhanced mechanics with just wasd input, to create a skill based movement.
I like wall jumping as a concept more than bunnyhopping, but it has a long way to go, it's very weak right now in terms of the "advantage" you gain by being absurdly well practiced with it.
Marine movement in NS2 is pretty much just brain dead and bad. I really don't like it. NS marine movement looked pretty silly, but it was amazingly high skill, and that made it very cool.
Bring back bunnyhop for aliens. The realism argument does not apply, because to be realistic we'd need much more input to dictate world physics than simply forward/back/strafe/jump. Movement is such a big part of alien gameplay, there needs to be a high skill ceiling and movement that is unhuman.
Bunnyhop might not be the most "realistic" but it has always been the best way to bridge that gap of possible enhanced mechanics with just wasd input, to create a skill based movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So why BHop and not something else?
@Azatoth: every skilled Skulk basically walljumps the same exact way as well, so that's why a change is necessary.
Temphage, I'd love to see another form of skill movement added that isn't air acceleration or bunnyhop, but see below:
<!--quoteo(post=2034812:date=Nov 25 2012, 08:44 PM:name=hus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hus @ Nov 25 2012, 08:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's better ways to put skill ceilings in and games designed entirely for movement skills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
which (competitive FPS) titles are you thinking of?
O Unreal had dodging and walljumps, which was passable. I didn't play it myself but I watched a lot of movies, it looked sufficiently deep.
O Painkiller's movement had bunnyhopping in the form of simply holding forward (similar to HL2: SP). no air acceleration or skill basis in the bunnyhopping itself, but there were crazy moves you could do with dodging that made for great skill-based gameplay.
O TF2 also comes to mind, particularly scout vs. scout.
I don't really know of too many other successful games that removed air acceleration / bunnyhop.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y6t07VID4w" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y6t07VID4w</a>
Now I mean best by best implementation not most fun or most complex or anything like that. If I had to say most fun I'd say TF. Warsow combines quake physics and adds dodging and wall-jumping using a special key and a system that is really easy to learn and does not require amazing knowledge of angles or months of practice to achieve. All it takes is a youtube video and you can move well enough to play against pros.
It's not just the ability to gain momentum by jumping aka bhopping alone that makes it special, there are a lot of other unique quirks of the quake engine such as strafing angles, ramps, and walls and how they play into player physics which NS1 also had that made it really awesome. NS2's movement system is simple in its current state, but it's unfortunately shallow and definitely not the correct way to bring advanced movement to the beginner level, that's what warsow handles differently and correctly.
If UWE took the gsrc movement and improved it, it should be better both for new and pro players, but NS2 walljump is neither, therefore it's a huge step backwards from NS1 and overall because of how important it was in NS1, NS2 is a step backwards from NS1 following that logic.
I think I'd be fine if they figured out something completely different and built the gaming experience around that. Now it's a bit stuck in the middle and not getting all the way to any desirable situation.
So even without the gain of speed that allow bhop, I would still copy goldsource air control.
In NS1 if you got a better mouse that had slighter higher DPI/tacitility you immediately benefitted from it.. In NS2, its just more oatmeal. I've been playing NS2 and not convinced im sticking around, even having logged almost 12,000 hours of NS1.