<!--quoteo(post=2034461:date=Nov 25 2012, 09:40 PM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 25 2012, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Until Marines are prevented from going in to each and every vent on each and every map, yes, I am opposed to a mine damage buff. In fact, until that happens, I'd prefer to see mines hot-nerfed. Vent abuse + mines is way too beardy as it stands, especially on Docks and Veil.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not get carapace and then get kind of close to the mine to detonate it, without it killing you. Even a skulk without carapace can carefully detonate a mine without dying.
<!--quoteo(post=2034461:date=Nov 25 2012, 03:40 PM:name=Metal Handkerchief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metal Handkerchief @ Nov 25 2012, 03:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Until Marines are prevented from going in to each and every vent on each and every map, yes, I am opposed to a mine damage buff. In fact, until that happens, I'd prefer to see mines hot-nerfed. Vent abuse + mines is way too beardy as it stands, especially on Docks and Veil.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No kidding. It's insane how easy it is to get into vents on those maps as a Marine. Camping the vent between Overlook and Skylights can hold both res nodes for quite some time. At least until Lerks come into play, or until the Marine runs out of ammo.
<!--quoteo(post=2034458:date=Nov 25 2012, 01:37 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Nov 25 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because a field of mines + one marine shooting you means you can't just walk around them. The marine will kill you. If you try to attack him, the mine spam will kill you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you can't mine spam they cost alot you know, if aliens stay aggressive and deny res nodes for rines you rarely see mines being used.
<!--quoteo(post=2034469:date=Nov 25 2012, 03:51 PM:name=SaniK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SaniK @ Nov 25 2012, 03:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034469"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you can't mine spam they cost alot you know, if aliens stay aggressive and deny res nodes for rines you rarely see mines being used.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They do cost a lot, but they're specifically useful early game when used to protect res and power nodes. It's just a delay tactic against better teams, but still useful in that sense.
<!--quoteo(post=2034469:date=Nov 25 2012, 04:51 PM:name=SaniK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SaniK @ Nov 25 2012, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034469"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you can't mine spam they cost alot you know, if aliens stay aggressive and deny res nodes for rines you rarely see mines being used.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You individually cannot mine spam, but teams can effectively spam a healthy amount of mines at the 2-3 critical locations in a game.
<!--quoteo(post=2034362:date=Nov 25 2012, 11:35 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 25 2012, 11:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034362"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you still totally miss the point... clumped sentry is the downside - they are meant to be vulnerable to bile bomb and they are not meant to 'cover' a large area.
if you had the freedom to place them anywhere in a room; it would be an absolute nightmare for any alien trying to harrass...
a single marine versus a single skulk in an expansion room.... well with the sentries all clumped up there is a huge blind spot and the marine only has a small area to stand 'safe' from the skulk. if you could put sentries everywhere, you could 'cover' about 90% of every room.
it's one of the most absurd suggestions i've ever seen.
p.s. sentry do a lot of damage to hp, as soon as you lose your armor you will die extremely fast as a skulk/lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's too bad the sentries can't shoot THROUGH each other. Granted, that is totally negated by how big the skulk is. And one sentry alone is not going to murder a skulk too easily by itself. I regularly run through nests without taking much damage at all.
My entire point in this thread, however, was the mines are completely fine.
Personally I don't see mines being too useful. As a Marine I don't get kills or even have them trigger a lot and as an Alien, I tend to see them before triggering them, or tend to wall/ceiling walk. Personally, I'm not against the idea of them doing something to mines.
Also, do the mines actually gain damage from the weapons research levels?
<!--quoteo(post=2034465:date=Nov 25 2012, 09:46 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 25 2012, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No kidding. It's insane how easy it is to get into vents on those maps as a Marine. Camping the vent between Overlook and Skylights can hold both res nodes for quite some time. At least until Lerks come into play, or until the Marine runs out of ammo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
since i'm pretty sure the commander can't drop med/ammo to you in most if not all vents; he can't hold the res nodes for any time.
drop an extractor, marine wastes all his ammo, go kill him. easy.
It's pretty obvious how awesome mines are if you compare them to their crappy counterpart sentries; which cannot be bought with pres and therefore slow down your tech and expansion, they require a robo, are less reliable, take lots of time to build, cost more, and don't really deny area because of cover. I'd prefer it if sentries were just removed from the game and replaced by mines in their tech path.
<!--quoteo(post=2033452:date=Nov 24 2012, 03:30 AM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Al_Ka_Pwn @ Nov 24 2012, 03:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033452"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems silly that a grenade can instantly kill a skulk with carapace and it gets more ammo for free, but a 5 rez mine can't kill a skulk with carapace. For their cost, and their vulnerability to ranged alien attacks they should at the very least be able to kill skulks at all stages of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
they can't even kill a carapaceless skulk. Marines are kinda underpowered right now, and the game is a constant non stop session of whack a mole, why is everyone here so dumb? I mean FFS They blow up when creeped, they blow up to lerk spikes, they blow up to every gorge attack, they blow up when fades blink over them, doing no damage to the fade, they even blow up to a skulk's parasite attack, if you think mines are OP, then you're just awful
<!--quoteo(post=2038967:date=Dec 2 2012, 10:59 PM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Al_Ka_Pwn @ Dec 2 2012, 10:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->they can't even kill a carapaceless skulk. Marines are kinda underpowered right now, and the game is a constant non stop session of whack a mole, why is everyone here so dumb? I mean FFS They blow up when creeped, they blow up to lerk spikes, they blow up to every gorge attack, they blow up when fades blink over them, doing no damage to the fade, they even blow up to a skulk's parasite attack, if you think mines are OP, then you're just awful<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is quite obvious from your post you do not understand this game, I have provided links for you to solve this problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are 5 alien life forms in the game, mines are effective against only one of them, and it is the one lifeform that is totally free, and at all points in the game, from beginning to end, the skulk can detonate the mine and not die to it.
So unless you can show me something more concrete than half baked sarcasm like a high level game where there was a game ending mineacolypse, I'm going to assume that you're full of hot air.
<!--quoteo(post=2033624:date=Nov 24 2012, 09:49 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 24 2012, 09:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mines are a bit too powerful, or at least too cheap. The most common tactic in 6v6 competitive now is to rush mine research, and then all the marines instantly buy a pack of mines each (that's 18 mines...) and place the around the marine base, around marine rts, in just about every vent on the map, around random corners, pretty much everywhere really. A couple of minutes later, they can place another 18 mines.
It makes skulking extremely frustrating, and pretty much shuts down all movement through vents. Part of the problem is that you don't even have to touch the mine for it to explode, you just have to be close to it, which makes it a bit too easy to hit them by mistake. Then there's the cost -- they're simply too cheap compared to how many of them you get.
As for the counters; they're not really effective. Spamming cysts around the entire map isn't feasible in the early parts of the game, and probably not even in the later parts of the game unless you are completely dominating. Some parts of the map you can't even cyst, like vents. Lerks don't come out until 5 minutes or so into the game, so that doesn't really help either. Even when you have a lerk, you need that lerk to help in combat, not flying around the entire map looking for mines -- and even if you know where the mines are, shooting them actually takes a lot of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What part of being a skulk vs. mines are frustrating? If you don't have carapace then use some situational awareness; you've played marines before, right? So you know where mines typically go. All you have to do is skirt around the edge of the blast radius, explode them and you're fine. You'll come away with 20~ health and the marine is down 15 res because mines are ineffectual unless you chain them together. And I've not once played or seen one of these fabled games where mines litter the map like the misbegotten children of all prostitutes of all time. Frankly, I don't believe you.
And you get three mines for your fifteen res. Takes two to defend an extractor semi-effectively, one for the power node. Considering that they are by no means a guaranteed kill and are more of a speedbump to alien harassment, it seems a little expensive to me. Assuming that the aliens are remotely competent then you will not have the res to consistently re-mine extractors. And god help you if they get carapace, which renders mines entirely moot.
A lerk is flying around the map being fast and doing harassment. It takes only a few seconds to destroy mines and make an extractor vulnerable. It is not a huge burden to stop for a moment and cost a marine 15 res for nothing.
Mines are expensive for a maybe-kill vs. a class that is free for everyone. Best case scenario is that you've killed a skulk. Congrats. In 12 seconds he'll be right back at that extractor. Changes I'd like to see for mines?
-Consistent blast radius-- It needs to do the same damage on the outside as on the middle, so skulks can't creep around the edges and take them out for free. -Immunity to alien attacks excepting bile bomb. Bring a gorge or a skulk with cara or literally any higher lifeform to take them out - Cheaper. Should be 10 res. I barely ever see them used in pub play because 15 res after 15 res really hurts your pool after a while.
<!--quoteo(post=2038975:date=Dec 2 2012, 06:28 PM:name=YOURFRIEND)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (YOURFRIEND @ Dec 2 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What part of being a skulk vs. mines are frustrating? If you don't have carapace then use some situational awareness; you've played marines before, right? So you know where mines typically go. All you have to do is skirt around the edge of the blast radius, explode them and you're fine. You'll come away with 20~ health and the marine is down 15 res because mines are ineffectual unless you chain them together. And I've not once played or seen one of these fabled games where mines litter the map like the misbegotten children of all prostitutes of all time. Frankly, I don't believe you.
And you get three mines for your fifteen res. Takes two to defend an extractor semi-effectively, one for the power node. Considering that they are by no means a guaranteed kill and are more of a speedbump to alien harassment, it seems a little expensive to me. Assuming that the aliens are remotely competent then you will not have the res to consistently re-mine extractors. And god help you if they get carapace, which renders mines entirely moot.
A lerk is flying around the map being fast and doing harassment. It takes only a few seconds to destroy mines and make an extractor vulnerable. It is not a huge burden to stop for a moment and cost a marine 15 res for nothing.
Mines are expensive for a maybe-kill vs. a class that is free for everyone. Best case scenario is that you've killed a skulk. Congrats. In 12 seconds he'll be right back at that extractor. Changes I'd like to see for mines?
-Consistent blast radius-- It needs to do the same damage on the outside as on the middle, so skulks can't creep around the edges and take them out for free. -Immunity to alien attacks excepting bile bomb. Bring a gorge or a skulk with cara or literally any higher lifeform to take them out - Cheaper. Should be 10 res. I barely ever see them used in pub play because 15 res after 15 res really hurts your pool after a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In competitive games, mines typically go everywhere skulks need to do damage in order to equalize the game. It's powerful because marines effectively get dozens of extra early game "guns" on the field (in that there are entities all over the map that can kill skulks without being babysat) when aliens have no direct response. Hydra can be dropped, but they're not nearly as effective per unit as mines tend to be.
I like the way mines are atm. Sometimes I like to drop them in random locations that skulks are likely to pass through, like right after a sharp turn in a hallway. I certainly hate it when marines place them like this as I'm skulking; I'm much more likely to die in sudden encounters or waste my time running back to the hive and heal. If placed next to a phase gate or some other structure, the skulk will die outright or be low enough to die in just a couple of hits. Remember that a mine can damage or kill multiple skulks as well. I'd say that's pretty effective for 5 res per mine, which is an optional purchase unless your comm orders you.
Ofc they get less effective in mid/end-game when higher lifeforms come out, but they still protect structures and teammates quite well against skulks. Gorges and lerks that are close enough to blow up your mines make them vulnerable. Either that or you're leaving your mines out in the open in plain view.
<!--quoteo(post=2038967:date=Dec 2 2012, 05:59 PM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Al_Ka_Pwn @ Dec 2 2012, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->they can't even kill a carapaceless skulk. Marines are kinda underpowered right now, and the game is a constant non stop session of whack a mole, why is everyone here so dumb? I mean FFS They blow up when creeped, they blow up to lerk spikes, they blow up to every gorge attack, they blow up when fades blink over them, doing no damage to the fade, they even blow up to a skulk's parasite attack, if you think mines are OP, then you're just awful<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't even seem to know basic mine mechanics. How many parasites does it take to kill a mine? Do you actually think fade's blink ability triggers mines? How many gorge spits do you think it takes to kill a mine?
Perhaps your knowledge level of the game is awful.
<!--quoteo(post=2038974:date=Dec 2 2012, 06:28 PM:name=Al_Ka_Pwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Al_Ka_Pwn @ Dec 2 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are 5 alien life forms in the game, mines are effective against only one of them, and it is the one lifeform that is totally free, and at all points in the game, from beginning to end, the skulk can detonate the mine and not die to it.
So unless you can show me something more concrete than half baked sarcasm like a high level game where there was a game ending mineacolypse, I'm going to assume that you're full of hot air.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's some more NS2 knowledge that you seem to lack. For the first 5-10 minutes of a game, anywhere from 100% to typically >50% are skulks. You know, the life form that mines are effective against. Are you really trying to complain that mines are only effective against 50-100% of aliens during the most critical periods (early and mid game) of every single game?
<!--quoteo(post=2038975:date=Dec 2 2012, 06:28 PM:name=YOURFRIEND)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (YOURFRIEND @ Dec 2 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What part of being a skulk vs. mines are frustrating? If you don't have carapace then use some situational awareness; you've played marines before, right? So you know where mines typically go. All you have to do is skirt around the edge of the blast radius, explode them and you're fine. You'll come away with 20~ health and the marine is down 15 res because mines are ineffectual unless you chain them together. And I've not once played or seen one of these fabled games where mines litter the map like the misbegotten children of all prostitutes of all time. Frankly, I don't believe you.
And you get three mines for your fifteen res. Takes two to defend an extractor semi-effectively, one for the power node. Considering that they are by no means a guaranteed kill and are more of a speedbump to alien harassment, it seems a little expensive to me. Assuming that the aliens are remotely competent then you will not have the res to consistently re-mine extractors. And god help you if they get carapace, which renders mines entirely moot.
A lerk is flying around the map being fast and doing harassment. It takes only a few seconds to destroy mines and make an extractor vulnerable. It is not a huge burden to stop for a moment and cost a marine 15 res for nothing.
Mines are expensive for a maybe-kill vs. a class that is free for everyone. Best case scenario is that you've killed a skulk. Congrats. In 12 seconds he'll be right back at that extractor. Changes I'd like to see for mines?
-Consistent blast radius-- It needs to do the same damage on the outside as on the middle, so skulks can't creep around the edges and take them out for free. -Immunity to alien attacks excepting bile bomb. Bring a gorge or a skulk with cara or literally any higher lifeform to take them out - Cheaper. Should be 10 res. I barely ever see them used in pub play because 15 res after 15 res really hurts your pool after a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clearly you've never actually seen a team abuse mines like what fanatic was describing. If you want to see how it is done, then you can watch some competitive games. It's not that competitive players are any better at using mines, just that competitive players actually do it as a team. One pack of 3 mines isn't very effective, but 5 players each dropping 3 mines and shooting a hive is going to kill it very easily.
<!--quoteo(post=2038995:date=Dec 2 2012, 06:10 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 2 2012, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Clearly you've never actually seen a team abuse mines like what fanatic was describing. If you want to see how it is done, then you can watch some competitive games. It's not that competitive players are any better at using mines, just that competitive players actually do it as a team. One pack of 3 mines isn't very effective, but 5 players each dropping 3 mines and shooting a hive is going to kill it very easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ENTIRE TEAM DO: > Drop mine on feet > Locate allied feet > Trade position with allied feet > Fire on hive > ?????? > Smexy profits.
^You get three of those per team mine pack purchase.
<!--quoteo(post=2038995:date=Dec 2 2012, 04:10 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 2 2012, 04:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Clearly you've never actually seen a team abuse mines like what fanatic was describing. If you want to see how it is done, then you can watch some competitive games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Link me.
e: Seriously, I've watched every NS2 show match on the Natural Selection 2 twitch channel from post regen-buff and I've never seen mines used like he's describing.
e: Seriously, I've watched every NS2 show match on the Natural Selection 2 twitch channel from post regen-buff and I've never seen mines used like he's describing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI5dcEwF5kc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI5dcEwF5kc</a> quick summary: we opened camouflage with decent map control, archaea plops down mines and rifles down our hive before I can even pres Lerk (damn you, no resources during death!).
granted, our play wasn't the best while arc was arc, but I am quite certain mines do not need a buff. it was almost entirely pointless to attack into that firing squad.
another thing that makes them much more potent in competitive play is teamwork - you can place mines around teammates' feet so they do not get harmed when the mines explode. I don't think this is a common feature of public play.
<!--quoteo(post=2039016:date=Dec 2 2012, 05:23 PM:name=YOURFRIEND)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (YOURFRIEND @ Dec 2 2012, 05:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And you get three mines for your fifteen res. Takes two to defend an extractor semi-effectively, one for the power node.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> you don't have to place them on the RT, just place one wherever you don't have LOS if you're rushing to defend it. also, vents. inv uses vent mines with great success - very often I will wait until the last second to flee as a Lerk, only to fly into a vent mine or see it and have nowhere to escape. just because a mine isn't blown up does not mean that it is useless, the area denial can be situationally as good or better.
mines are really good
another great thing to do is when you're trying to hold a phase gate, just plopping mines down randomly isn't necessarily a bad idea. if it's an open area such as in Hub (ns2_tram), it severely limits where the Skulks can fight while the marines can simply dance around the mines.
<!--quoteo(post=2039084:date=Dec 3 2012, 12:29 AM:name=JediPhreaK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JediPhreaK @ Dec 3 2012, 12:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039084"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do Mines Level with Arms Lab Research? If they don't, shouldn't they?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm 80% sure that they do not get weapon damage bonus. Perhaps they should, but it would be a minor or negligible benefit. Higher lifeforms start rolling by the time weapon upgrades do. Mines also deal light damage, so for example even a +13 light damage boost would only deal ~3 extra armor damage for the first weapon level.
<!--quoteo(post=2039113:date=Dec 3 2012, 02:36 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 3 2012, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039113"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm 80% sure that they do not get weapon damage bonus. Perhaps they should, but it would be a minor or negligible benefit. Higher lifeforms start rolling by the time weapon upgrades do. Mines also deal light damage, so for example even a +13 light damage boost would only deal ~3 extra armor damage for the first weapon level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If they get a signifigant nerf in the early game I'd agree with this. Mines are pretty unfair before bilebomb is a thing. In most of the games I comm they result in 30 some odd percent of all kills before the 10 minute mark.
mines counter skulks too hard and arent worth ###### against everything that exists, plus witht he new no damage trough wall there are some bugs where you dont even take dmg some times.
<!--quoteo(post=2039480:date=Dec 3 2012, 02:20 PM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Dec 3 2012, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->simple, make mines (and maybe sentries?) get buffs from weapons and armor upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> how does this help exactly? if you nerf them to accomodate for scaling, then they will become worthless in the early game. if you leave them as they are and scale the damage / armor, this basically hurts lategame Skulks even <i>more</i>, and basically forces Carapace more than it does already.
mines are fine as they are, their role is fulfilled quite well.
Comments
Why not get carapace and then get kind of close to the mine to detonate it, without it killing you. Even a skulk without carapace can carefully detonate a mine without dying.
No kidding. It's insane how easy it is to get into vents on those maps as a Marine. Camping the vent between Overlook and Skylights can hold both res nodes for quite some time. At least until Lerks come into play, or until the Marine runs out of ammo.
you can't mine spam they cost alot you know, if aliens stay aggressive and deny res nodes for rines you rarely see mines being used.
They do cost a lot, but they're specifically useful early game when used to protect res and power nodes. It's just a delay tactic against better teams, but still useful in that sense.
You individually cannot mine spam, but teams can effectively spam a healthy amount of mines at the 2-3 critical locations in a game.
if you had the freedom to place them anywhere in a room; it would be an absolute nightmare for any alien trying to harrass...
a single marine versus a single skulk in an expansion room.... well with the sentries all clumped up there is a huge blind spot and the marine only has a small area to stand 'safe' from the skulk. if you could put sentries everywhere, you could 'cover' about 90% of every room.
it's one of the most absurd suggestions i've ever seen.
p.s. sentry do a lot of damage to hp, as soon as you lose your armor you will die extremely fast as a skulk/lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's too bad the sentries can't shoot THROUGH each other. Granted, that is totally negated by how big the skulk is. And one sentry alone is not going to murder a skulk too easily by itself. I regularly run through nests without taking much damage at all.
My entire point in this thread, however, was the mines are completely fine.
Also, do the mines actually gain damage from the weapons research levels?
since i'm pretty sure the commander can't drop med/ammo to you in most if not all vents; he can't hold the res nodes for any time.
drop an extractor, marine wastes all his ammo, go kill him. easy.
I'd prefer it if sentries were just removed from the game and replaced by mines in their tech path.
no, they are fine as they are.
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It is quite obvious from your post you do not understand this game, I have provided links for you to solve this problem.
<a href="http://www.ensl.org" target="_blank">Register here</a>
It is quite obvious from your post you do not understand this game, I have provided links for you to solve this problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are 5 alien life forms in the game, mines are effective against only one of them, and it is the one lifeform that is totally free, and at all points in the game, from beginning to end, the skulk can detonate the mine and not die to it.
So unless you can show me something more concrete than half baked sarcasm like a high level game where there was a game ending mineacolypse, I'm going to assume that you're full of hot air.
It makes skulking extremely frustrating, and pretty much shuts down all movement through vents. Part of the problem is that you don't even have to touch the mine for it to explode, you just have to be close to it, which makes it a bit too easy to hit them by mistake. Then there's the cost -- they're simply too cheap compared to how many of them you get.
As for the counters; they're not really effective. Spamming cysts around the entire map isn't feasible in the early parts of the game, and probably not even in the later parts of the game unless you are completely dominating. Some parts of the map you can't even cyst, like vents. Lerks don't come out until 5 minutes or so into the game, so that doesn't really help either. Even when you have a lerk, you need that lerk to help in combat, not flying around the entire map looking for mines -- and even if you know where the mines are, shooting them actually takes a lot of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What part of being a skulk vs. mines are frustrating? If you don't have carapace then use some situational awareness; you've played marines before, right? So you know where mines typically go. All you have to do is skirt around the edge of the blast radius, explode them and you're fine. You'll come away with 20~ health and the marine is down 15 res because mines are ineffectual unless you chain them together. And I've not once played or seen one of these fabled games where mines litter the map like the misbegotten children of all prostitutes of all time. Frankly, I don't believe you.
And you get three mines for your fifteen res. Takes two to defend an extractor semi-effectively, one for the power node. Considering that they are by no means a guaranteed kill and are more of a speedbump to alien harassment, it seems a little expensive to me. Assuming that the aliens are remotely competent then you will not have the res to consistently re-mine extractors. And god help you if they get carapace, which renders mines entirely moot.
A lerk is flying around the map being fast and doing harassment. It takes only a few seconds to destroy mines and make an extractor vulnerable. It is not a huge burden to stop for a moment and cost a marine 15 res for nothing.
Mines are expensive for a maybe-kill vs. a class that is free for everyone. Best case scenario is that you've killed a skulk. Congrats. In 12 seconds he'll be right back at that extractor. Changes I'd like to see for mines?
-Consistent blast radius-- It needs to do the same damage on the outside as on the middle, so skulks can't creep around the edges and take them out for free.
-Immunity to alien attacks excepting bile bomb. Bring a gorge or a skulk with cara or literally any higher lifeform to take them out
- Cheaper. Should be 10 res. I barely ever see them used in pub play because 15 res after 15 res really hurts your pool after a while.
And you get three mines for your fifteen res. Takes two to defend an extractor semi-effectively, one for the power node. Considering that they are by no means a guaranteed kill and are more of a speedbump to alien harassment, it seems a little expensive to me. Assuming that the aliens are remotely competent then you will not have the res to consistently re-mine extractors. And god help you if they get carapace, which renders mines entirely moot.
A lerk is flying around the map being fast and doing harassment. It takes only a few seconds to destroy mines and make an extractor vulnerable. It is not a huge burden to stop for a moment and cost a marine 15 res for nothing.
Mines are expensive for a maybe-kill vs. a class that is free for everyone. Best case scenario is that you've killed a skulk. Congrats. In 12 seconds he'll be right back at that extractor. Changes I'd like to see for mines?
-Consistent blast radius-- It needs to do the same damage on the outside as on the middle, so skulks can't creep around the edges and take them out for free.
-Immunity to alien attacks excepting bile bomb. Bring a gorge or a skulk with cara or literally any higher lifeform to take them out
- Cheaper. Should be 10 res. I barely ever see them used in pub play because 15 res after 15 res really hurts your pool after a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In competitive games, mines typically go everywhere skulks need to do damage in order to equalize the game. It's powerful because marines effectively get dozens of extra early game "guns" on the field (in that there are entities all over the map that can kill skulks without being babysat) when aliens have no direct response. Hydra can be dropped, but they're not nearly as effective per unit as mines tend to be.
Ofc they get less effective in mid/end-game when higher lifeforms come out, but they still protect structures and teammates quite well against skulks. Gorges and lerks that are close enough to blow up your mines make them vulnerable. Either that or you're leaving your mines out in the open in plain view.
You don't even seem to know basic mine mechanics. How many parasites does it take to kill a mine? Do you actually think fade's blink ability triggers mines? How many gorge spits do you think it takes to kill a mine?
Perhaps your knowledge level of the game is awful.
So unless you can show me something more concrete than half baked sarcasm like a high level game where there was a game ending mineacolypse, I'm going to assume that you're full of hot air.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's some more NS2 knowledge that you seem to lack. For the first 5-10 minutes of a game, anywhere from 100% to typically >50% are skulks. You know, the life form that mines are effective against. Are you really trying to complain that mines are only effective against 50-100% of aliens during the most critical periods (early and mid game) of every single game?
And you get three mines for your fifteen res. Takes two to defend an extractor semi-effectively, one for the power node. Considering that they are by no means a guaranteed kill and are more of a speedbump to alien harassment, it seems a little expensive to me. Assuming that the aliens are remotely competent then you will not have the res to consistently re-mine extractors. And god help you if they get carapace, which renders mines entirely moot.
A lerk is flying around the map being fast and doing harassment. It takes only a few seconds to destroy mines and make an extractor vulnerable. It is not a huge burden to stop for a moment and cost a marine 15 res for nothing.
Mines are expensive for a maybe-kill vs. a class that is free for everyone. Best case scenario is that you've killed a skulk. Congrats. In 12 seconds he'll be right back at that extractor. Changes I'd like to see for mines?
-Consistent blast radius-- It needs to do the same damage on the outside as on the middle, so skulks can't creep around the edges and take them out for free.
-Immunity to alien attacks excepting bile bomb. Bring a gorge or a skulk with cara or literally any higher lifeform to take them out
- Cheaper. Should be 10 res. I barely ever see them used in pub play because 15 res after 15 res really hurts your pool after a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clearly you've never actually seen a team abuse mines like what fanatic was describing. If you want to see how it is done, then you can watch some competitive games. It's not that competitive players are any better at using mines, just that competitive players actually do it as a team. One pack of 3 mines isn't very effective, but 5 players each dropping 3 mines and shooting a hive is going to kill it very easily.
ENTIRE TEAM DO:
> Drop mine on feet
> Locate allied feet
> Trade position with allied feet
> Fire on hive
> ??????
> Smexy profits.
^You get three of those per team mine pack purchase.
Link me.
e: Seriously, I've watched every NS2 show match on the Natural Selection 2 twitch channel from post regen-buff and I've never seen mines used like he's describing.
e: Seriously, I've watched every NS2 show match on the Natural Selection 2 twitch channel from post regen-buff and I've never seen mines used like he's describing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI5dcEwF5kc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI5dcEwF5kc</a>
quick summary: we opened camouflage with decent map control, archaea plops down mines and rifles down our hive before I can even pres Lerk (damn you, no resources during death!).
granted, our play wasn't the best while arc was arc, but I am quite certain mines do not need a buff. it was almost entirely pointless to attack into that firing squad.
another thing that makes them much more potent in competitive play is teamwork - you can place mines around teammates' feet so they do not get harmed when the mines explode. I don't think this is a common feature of public play.
<!--quoteo(post=2039016:date=Dec 2 2012, 05:23 PM:name=YOURFRIEND)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (YOURFRIEND @ Dec 2 2012, 05:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And you get three mines for your fifteen res. Takes two to defend an extractor semi-effectively, one for the power node.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you don't have to place them on the RT, just place one wherever you don't have LOS if you're rushing to defend it. also, vents. inv uses vent mines with great success - very often I will wait until the last second to flee as a Lerk, only to fly into a vent mine or see it and have nowhere to escape. just because a mine isn't blown up does not mean that it is useless, the area denial can be situationally as good or better.
mines are really good
another great thing to do is when you're trying to hold a phase gate, just plopping mines down randomly isn't necessarily a bad idea. if it's an open area such as in Hub (ns2_tram), it severely limits where the Skulks can fight while the marines can simply dance around the mines.
I'm 80% sure that they do not get weapon damage bonus. Perhaps they should, but it would be a minor or negligible benefit. Higher lifeforms start rolling by the time weapon upgrades do. Mines also deal light damage, so for example even a +13 light damage boost would only deal ~3 extra armor damage for the first weapon level.
If they get a signifigant nerf in the early game I'd agree with this. Mines are pretty unfair before bilebomb is a thing. In most of the games I comm they result in 30 some odd percent of all kills before the 10 minute mark.
how does this help exactly? if you nerf them to accomodate for scaling, then they will become worthless in the early game. if you leave them as they are and scale the damage / armor, this basically hurts lategame Skulks even <i>more</i>, and basically forces Carapace more than it does already.
mines are fine as they are, their role is fulfilled quite well.