Official word on VAC?
Camron
Join Date: 2011-01-06 Member: 76356Members
Join Date: 2011-01-06 Member: 76356Members
Will NS2 use Valve Anti-Cheat or not? After watching the <a href="http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-ex-natural-selection-ii/17-6744/" target="_blank">Giant Bomb stream</a> it sounded like they said it won't be used. It also isn't on the <a href="http://store.steampowered.com/search/?sort_by=Name&sort_order=ASC&category2=8#sort_by=Name&sort_order=ASC&category2=8&page=5" target="_blank">Steam list</a> of VAC games.
Consistency checks on LUA/assets is not enough. They can be disabled easily. Cheats have a greater impact in NS2 than in other FPSes because of the different abilities/play styles of each faction. We also don't even have first person spectator yet to identify aimbotters. Please add VAC support.
I would also like to see NS2 support added to <a href="http://www.esl.eu/eu/wire/anti-cheat/" target="_blank">ESL Wire Anti-Cheat</a> (or another low level anti-cheat) for tournament use.
Consistency checks on LUA/assets is not enough. They can be disabled easily. Cheats have a greater impact in NS2 than in other FPSes because of the different abilities/play styles of each faction. We also don't even have first person spectator yet to identify aimbotters. Please add VAC support.
I would also like to see NS2 support added to <a href="http://www.esl.eu/eu/wire/anti-cheat/" target="_blank">ESL Wire Anti-Cheat</a> (or another low level anti-cheat) for tournament use.
Comments
Source? I can't find an official statement on it. I can only find some older stuff where they mention they <b>may</b> use VAC but it seems like they never actually committed to it.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2011/2/ns2_q_a_2" target="_blank">NS2 Q&A #2 (February 8, 2011)</a>
<b>What are your plans for anti-cheat protection?</b>
Anti-cheat is a tough one because it's a bit like DRM, where the cure can be worse than the problem. Also like DRM, I think the significance of problem is often overstated. We have a few basic things we need to incorporate into the game, like validation of the client files; in terms of preventing more sophisticated forms of hacking, we may use the VAC system through Steam.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=118384&view=findpost&p=1934711" target="_blank">Live Developer Q&A No. 1 (May 9 2012)</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1934711:date=May 9 2012, 04:51 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ May 9 2012, 04:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>How long until anti-cheat?</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Not yet a very big priority...
Very likly that they implement VAC at some point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
edit: I think Charlie said it in a QnA some weeks ago.
edit: I think Charlie said it in a QnA some weeks ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you remember <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/videos?page=1" target="_blank">which Q&A</a>? I've asked about VAC in multiple Q&As and never had an answer. I remember some of the older Q&As/interviews when people asked about anti-cheat Charlie responded with having the community watch for cheaters(ie. rely on guessing if a player is cheating by spectating). I would like a definitive answer on VAC (or another low level anti-cheat)
Valve anti cheat is a BROKEN PIECE OF SHEETS.
It doesn't prevent hackers.
It makes people think that there's less hackers.
The only thing it actualy does, is gives a headache and a half to legitimate players.
Also scubs, that wasnt hacks, thats your viewmodel being behind where your actual body is, so the marine sees the model comming around the corner before you can see around the corner. :/
Valve anti cheat is a BROKEN PIECE OF SHEETS.
It doesn't prevent hackers.
It makes people think that there's less hackers.
The only thing it actualy does, is gives a headache and a half to legitimate players.
Also scubs, that wasnt hacks, thats your viewmodel being behind where your actual body is, so the marine sees the model comming around the corner before you can see around the corner. :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you list some of the problems it causes? I've never had, or know anybody who had a problem with it on GoldSrc and Source games. I've heard of a small false positive on Modern Warfare but it was corrected.
Maybe you don't realize how open NS2 is to hacking. Making a hack for a game like CS or COD takes some skill and time. Making a VAC evading one takes even more skill. However because of NS2's open source LUA game code, it is <u>extremely easy</u> for any noob to make a hack. If there is no substantial punishment for hacking (VAC ban), people will hack rampantly. All they would get is a measly little single server ban and that's only after they've been caught (which is hard to do especially with no first person spectator)
Also keep in mind how hacks have a much bigger impact on NS2 than other FPSes.
~8:00
~8:00<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the link.
So I guess they will only be relying on consistency checks. No VAC. Disappointing.
Charlie:"<i>We could always add VAC or something like that later if we want to.</i>"
It is needed now. Especially with all of these tournaments with prizes.
I wonder what the reason is for not using VAC.
Maybe you don't realize how open NS2 is to hacking. Making a hack for a game like CS or COD takes some skill and time. Making a VAC evading one takes even more skill. However because of NS2's open source LUA game code, it is <u>extremely easy</u> for any noob to make a hack. If there is no substantial punishment for hacking (VAC ban), people will hack rampantly. All they would get is a measly little single server ban and that's only after they've been caught (which is hard to do especially with no first person spectator)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps he is VAC ban, because I don't really see any bad thing about VAC. It changes nothing for other people.
I presume it is not hard to make a cheat for NS2, as for CS or COD. Even evading VAC is not difficult, the best tool against cheat is: server admins, demos, and first person spectator (and a list of well known cheaters, but this is more sensitive). This is why it is not THAT important to have VAC included for now. I think it will come but there is plenty of other more important things to do before. It is not as essential as you say, because it is easy to evade, and anyway, cheats would have come with, or without it.
I don't see how cheats have bigger impact on NS2, they have the same impact in all games: it ruins them. But I agree VAC should come in, because it is transparent for users, not like others like Punkbuster who are awful.
Plus, VAC completely bans people from playing the game online when they are banned. Basically making their games useless. They would have to create a new Steam account and buy the game again to play online. That definitely helps to scare hackers away.
I presume it is not hard to make a cheat for NS2, as for CS or COD. Even evading VAC is not difficult, the best tool against cheat is: server admins, demos, and first person spectator (and a list of well known cheaters, but this is more sensitive). This is why it is not THAT important to have VAC included for now. I think it will come but there is plenty of other more important things to do before. It is not as essential as you say, because it is easy to evade, and anyway, cheats would have come with, or without it.
I don't see how cheats have bigger impact on NS2, they have the same impact in all games: it ruins them. But I agree VAC should come in, because it is transparent for users, not like others like Punkbuster who are awful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->VAC is needed as a deterrent<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. <u>Right now anyone can run cheats in the game and they will face <b>zero repercussions</b></u>. If someone knew they may potentially be VAC banned (even if they are using a "so far" VAC proof cheat), they would be way less likely to cheat.
Cheats have a bigger impact in NS2 because of the uneven playing field. Each "faction"/team has different abilities that give them certain advantages and disadvantages. Cheats can nullify most of one faction's advantages making the game severely imbalanced. The Aliens are pretty much screwed
<u>Off the top of my head:</u>
Alien melee attack: <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->They'll never even get close to an aimbotter (even from behind)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Alien Silence upgrade: <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->defeated<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Alien Camouflage upgrade: <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->defeated<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Alien Feign Death upgrade: <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->probably defeated<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Alien darkness advantage: <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->defeated with fullbright<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Aliens hiding in vents or on ceiling: <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->defeated with wallhack<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Aliens spotting marines by their flashlights: <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->defeated with fullbright (they don't need to use their flashlights)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Lerk gas cloud which obscures marine vision: <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->defeated<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Gorge Bile Bomb which obscures marine vision: <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->defeated<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I'm not sure VAC would have made a massive difference.
Yes it would. As I explained above, it creates a deterrent by cheaters having to take a risk of a VAC ban. Since there are no "real" repercussions for cheating, people who normally don't use cheats may use "minimal cheats". By "minimal cheats", I mean small cheats like fullbright (which is as simple as running "r_mode unlit" which a modified DLL will allow even if the server has cheats disabled). Also since there are no repercussions, some people are going to try out cheats "just for fun". There is no risk.
This is exactly what VAC would be doing - preventing users from messing about with the consistency checking. Most anti-cheats will not deter people who their own homework and most likely never will. It's not designed to, either. VAC has been and will continue to be a deterrent against people who use publicly available hacks.
VAC could monitor the binaries and DLLs loaded into memory to ensure the consistency check functions are intact. That's just a good first step. Then you could monitor the LUA byte code sections to make sure they weren't changed in memory (which would bypass consistency checks and the client even knowing that the script was modified).
I understand that there will always be cheaters in multiplayer games, however those cheaters are usually taking the risk of having their accounts banned. You seem to have a naive view of the people who whose cheats. You seem to think it's only the people who are really into it. With no punishments for cheating, you'll be surprised how many people end up using them. The main reason is just because they are fun to use. "There's no risk, so why not?" or "might as well try them now while there's no anti-cheat"
VAC is not a panacea, it will not be included in the game at launch.
if we have this, we can make a server mod "Community banned cheaters", so the players banned couldn't play again in servers with this mod...
Are you planning on moderating all 12 of your servers enough to prevent hackers from constantly appearing?
VAC is not a panacea, it will not be included in the game at launch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, I know you are just doing your marketing job, but you are wrong. The most effective defense is an actual anti-cheat. The community can't catch a hacker who isn't showing it blatantly, an anti-cheat can. Even if the community catches the hacker (which is very hard to do at the moment with no first person spectaor), all the community can do is give them a single server ban. In theory server ops could organize a global blacklist, but that can get messy,political, and out of hand. It's also not fair to globally ban someone based on a community member "guessing", not to mention the problems vendettas may introduce.
I'm pretty sure if you want this game to be competitive you need a half decent anti cheat otherwise the scene will die a slow death.
All very good points. Without proper first person spec, including the map, the enemies on them, the marine radar, the alien glowing through walls ability and all upgrades you would not be able to catch anyone even when looking for it short of speedhackers (unless they're aliens, could be celerity) and aimbots that snaps around 180 degrees. Everything else would be a pure guess. The consistency checks are also null and void without them being enforced as well and with no risk other than a bypass attempt not working and have wasted some time, it will be bypassed.
It's true however that it won't be needed at launch. Google for it, I can't find any cheats to download. Private code may of course exist but it would by definition not be wildly used, except in competitive scenes, speaking in general. But they will come and with cheating being the industry it has become it may be sooner rather that later.