What's most annoying about their decision is that they seemed to have made it blindly. From the Q&As, forum posts, and email exchanges, it appears that they didn't even go as far as to investigate the time/technical requirements to implement an anti-cheat service. They already use Steamworks, which according to its <a href="https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/api" target="_blank">API</a>, provides basic VAC support easily. <!--QuoteBegin-Steamworks API+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steamworks API)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Integration work with the VAC Steamworks C++ API is simple, because the heavy-lifting is left to Steam. An advantage is that cheat detection is not handled directly by your game client. The only thing your game needs to do is use the API to find out whether or not a given user is VAC banned.
VAC is a component of Steamworks and the Steam client, and works by scanning the users system for cheats while your game is running. It works a lot like a virus scanner, and has a database of known cheats to detect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Keep in mind that "known cheats to detect" also means "known cheat methods" which will catch new and unknown hacks using known cheat methods.
Sorry for whining a lot about this, but this is very confusing to me (and probably other PC gamers). Not only is a multiplayer-only game (with a competitive scene) launching in 2012 with no anti-cheat (which is readily available via Steamworks which they are already using), but that the devs don't see the problem with this.
I enjoy playing NS2 and I don't wanna see it get ruined by hackers.
<!--quoteo(post=2000155:date=Oct 29 2012, 04:52 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 29 2012, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2000155"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isn't consistency checking already a pretty effective way to keep hacks out? Just wondering, I don't know much about the technical side of these things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Circumventing the consistency checks is what will happen now. This is ideally what VAC would be preventing - the modification of the code for consistency checking (whether on disk or in memory). It does more than that, but right now there is no protection (or deterrent) for doing that. Hackers might be banned from the few servers with active admins, but now with the 100+ servers UWE are adding which will be unmoderated like every other official server in every other game, those bans will be insignificant and players will still be heavily affected by hackers whether UWE would like to believe so or not.
<!--quoteo(post=2000155:date=Oct 29 2012, 04:52 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 29 2012, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2000155"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isn't consistency checking already a pretty effective way to keep hacks out? Just wondering, I don't know much about the technical side of these things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's very easy to defeat and distribute. From there any noob can edit the LUA to make cheats easily.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><u>But that's not even the point of this thread</u>.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<u> There will always be cheats for games even if they have anti-cheat.</u> The point of this thread is that there is no real risk in cheating. Because of this, more people are prone to do it, even people who generally don't cheat and are just doing it for fun. There are some high value (as in more than usual e-glory) tournaments going on and with no risk of cheating, why not cheat to actually gain something real. With no risks, cheating could get out of hand fast.
It's gonna be funny when people start figuring out memory addresses for things. Then it's going to be as simple as injecting whatever you need even with simple memory editors such as cheat engine.
Consistency checking? Læwlz, please.
And yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing those 100's of official servers moderated and all suspicious people with high K/D banned...
Any multiplayer game, not just this game, needs SOME form of simple, basic memory editor protection running all the time.
If someone got banned in a half life 1 engine game, could they still play online in other multiplayer games that use different game engines and are VAC protected?
If someone got banned in a half life 1 engine game, could they still play online in other multiplayer games that use different game engines and are VAC protected?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes.
<!--quoteo(post=2000165:date=Oct 30 2012, 06:58 AM:name=Camron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camron @ Oct 30 2012, 06:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2000165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It appears that they didn't even go as far as to investigate the time/technical requirements to implement an anti-cheat service.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It appears you didn't even go as far as to consider the limitations of your own knowledge about UWE does and does not do.
<!--quoteo(post=2000165:date=Oct 30 2012, 06:58 AM:name=Camron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camron @ Oct 30 2012, 06:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2000165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is very confusing to me<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Allow me to clear up your confusion about VAC, please consider the following:
<!--quoteo(post=2000165:date=Oct 30 2012, 06:58 AM:name=Camron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camron @ Oct 30 2012, 06:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2000165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[VAC] is readily available via Steamworks which they are already using<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are confusing readily available with 'easy to implement.'
Now, anyone that reads this thread would do will to remember that repeated, high pitch posting does not equal reliable information about a subject. UWE's anti-cheat policy is multi-pronged and thus:
1. Provide the community with the capability to develop their own anti-cheat tools and provide basic anti-cheat tools out of the box 2. Where appropriate and efficient, implement anti-cheat systems such as consistency checking and which may at some point include VAC. 3. Wherever possible, foster and support a positive community atmosphere in which honest players feel they have real voice and power against cheaters.
You can find more thoughts on this subject in this presentation at DreamHack earlier this year: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIBCWcFLIhY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIBCWcFLIhY</a> at about 23:00. In it, I refer to VAC as one of the ways in which we intend to fight cheaters. Since then, the effectiveness and efficiency of VAC implementation has been further investigated and its limitations more apparent.
The most effective anti-cheat system will always be community driven. Computers, algorithms and robots cannot fight cheaters like you can, when properly empowered. The aim is to empower you.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1998788:date=Oct 28 2012, 11:40 AM:name=Regnareb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Regnareb @ Oct 28 2012, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps he is VAC ban, because I don't really see any bad thing about VAC. It changes nothing for other people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually yes, and its impossible to repeal. VAC Is a broken ideoligy and we need to take a step away from such things, PB and VAC never worked, they just made you feel more secure, they never actualy stop hackers, it just breaks the gaming experience for a few legit players. Like me. When VAC actually prevents more hackers than prevents legit players from playing the game they purchased, inform me, and I'll stop hating it so bad.
Please Hugh, don't even let the others consider it, it causes more headaches than it solves.
For any conformation of how broken VAC is, Just google something that will help you find the millions of complaints made against it either because it doesn't prevent hackers (at all) or unfair and unruly bans (i.e without doing anything in the way of hacking or for no reason at all), trust me, it causes more problems than it will ever solve.
With 100+ official servers, shouldn't there be some kind of admin enrollment and supervision program? To get people to apply for admin positions and have other people check up on those admins to see if they're doing a good and fair job. As well as for the players to be able to complain about the admins in some ordered way and report problems.
Hugh is right, I agree, pre-packaged VAC and PB systems do not get rid of cheats. Mere minutes/hours after VAC/PB get updated, the cheat companies update their cheats to be undetected from the VAC/PB update. So it's kind of a waste of time against someone subscribed to a cheat provider, unless that cheater plays in the few minutes/hours before the cheat provider updates the cheats.
What VAC/PB successfully do though, is provide a basic filter against anyone firing up some kind of memory editor (which are readily available) and messing with things with the intention to cheat - then posting it on some unmoderated forum and then everyone starts cheating because there's no mechanism to stop it. And I'm not talking about something obvious as an aimbot, but rather a wallhack which is much harder to detect even for server admins.
If someone got banned in a half life 1 engine game, could they still play online in other multiplayer games that use different game engines and are VAC protected?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. Dghelneshi is wrong here, if you are VAC banned it's your account and all your games with it.
Camron, I agree with you, that VAC should be used there. Not because it does find the cheaters (because it's not really good at it), but because it scare people and make them think two times before wanting to try it. You can have good community tools, but if they cheat, they will keep changing servers without being worried. And actually we don't have any good community tools, like the essential: first person spectator. But keep in mind that nothing is static and hopefully, it will come.
Camron is not saying that VAC will detect cheaters and prevent them from playing. But that VAC will scare them until it detect them (if it does). It obviously won't stop all the cheaters (or a lot), but at least it will prevent some of them to just try the cheat. If there is no drawback by using a cheat other than being banned on a server, nothing is gonna refrain them to try cheats. Losing your account (at least multiplayer games) is more scary, and at least, they can buy NS2 again if they get caught :P
<!--quoteo(post=2000282:date=Oct 29 2012, 06:48 PM:name=Regnareb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Regnareb @ Oct 29 2012, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2000282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No. Dghelneshi is wrong here, if you are VAC banned it's your account and all your games with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not true. It's on a per engine basis for all games prior to (but not including) Left 4 Dead. After that it's on a per game basis.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I personally view some type of gamewide anti-cheat program will need to be implemented at some point. Quite simply, having lived and adminned through pre and post-VAC online gaming, VAC has made a huge difference in reducing the number of cheaters and increasing the fun of online gaming. VAC has and never will eliminate cheating, but what it has done is significantly drive up the cost and effort required to cheat, reducing the number of active cheaters to a small majority of the gaming community. It has also increased the confidence of otherwise rule abiding players who know they don't have to resort to cheating just to stay competitive in cash/prize-based competition (e.g. see steroids in baseball effect).
Also, I view community admins to be the last line of defense with regards to dealing with cheaters. Quite simply, well-adminned servers with quality admins are minority of the servers in any online multiplayer. Even the best admins will have trouble making objective decisions on a consistent basis. The best solution has been and always will be automated processes that deal with cheaters on a consistent basis with minimal influence from admins, aka an anti-cheat program.
<!--quoteo(post=2000037:date=Oct 29 2012, 10:45 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Oct 29 2012, 10:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2000037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The most effective defence against hackers is a community armed to the teeth with tools to ban, kick, and stop hackers. This is the area we are most focused on, and one which the open nature of NS2 is particularly suited to.
VAC is not a panacea, it will not be included in the game at launch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> while I don't disagree with this statement - what exactly are our tools? is first person spectate planned for a future patch? votekick?
<!--quoteo(post=2000253:date=Oct 29 2012, 02:23 PM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Oct 29 2012, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2000253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually yes, and its impossible to repeal. VAC Is a broken ideoligy and we need to take a step away from such things, PB and VAC never worked, they just made you feel more secure, they never actualy stop hackers, it just breaks the gaming experience for a few legit players. Like me. When VAC actually prevents more hackers than prevents legit players from playing the game they purchased, inform me, and I'll stop hating it so bad.
Please Hugh, don't even let the others consider it, it causes more headaches than it solves.
For any conformation of how broken VAC is, Just google something that will help you find the millions of complaints made against it either because it doesn't prevent hackers (at all) or unfair and unruly bans (i.e without doing anything in the way of hacking or for no reason at all), trust me, it causes more problems than it will ever solve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't believe this is that big of an issue at all. VAC has only had a handful of false positives due to some MP3 plugin interfacing improperly<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->*<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->, and as far as I know, the people affected had their bans overturned (edit: according to the link, not fully true I guess). please provide any example of VAC being a hindrance to gameplay. Cheating-Death and Punkbuster I absolutely agree were trash. VAC is not the be all end all, but it certainly is nice to have and did stop a large amount of cheaters, 1 because it was mildly effective (due to the delayed ban system), and secondly as a deterrent.
<!--quoteo(post=1998825:date=Oct 28 2012, 03:28 AM:name=Camron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camron @ Oct 28 2012, 03:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->VAC is needed as a deterrent<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. <u>Right now anyone can run cheats in the game and they will face <b>zero repercussions</b></u>. If someone knew they may potentially be VAC banned (even if they are using a "so far" VAC proof cheat), they would be way less likely to cheat.
Cheats have a bigger impact in NS2 because of the uneven playing field. Each "faction"/team has different abilities that give them certain advantages and disadvantages. Cheats can nullify most of one faction's advantages making the game severely imbalanced. The Aliens are pretty much screwed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ehm. Cheaters make every game imbalanced and not fun to play.
Off-Topic: I've read some comments from the Giant Bomb video, and they seem to have left a very good impression. Both the game and the natural being and ways to talk of Charlie and Hugh. Good to see that even players who don't know the game for years feel the UWE mood by watching a video.
<!--quoteo(post=2000285:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:51 PM:name=Darkster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Darkster @ Oct 29 2012, 11:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2000285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is not true. It's on a per engine basis for all games prior to (but not including) Left 4 Dead. After that it's on a per game basis.
<a href="http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22782122&postcount=10" target="_blank">http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/show...mp;postcount=10</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, I didn't knew that... It's kind of sad :/
<!--quoteo(post=2000253:date=Oct 29 2012, 03:23 PM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Oct 29 2012, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2000253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For any conformation of how broken VAC is, Just google something that will help you find the millions of complaints made against it either because it doesn't prevent hackers (at all)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If it didn't prevent any hackers explain all of the complaints on the Steam forum about being banned because they "accidently" downloaded hacking software?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->or unfair and unruly bans (i.e without doing anything in the way of hacking or for no reason at all), trust me, it causes more problems than it will ever solve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Haha! Of course people are going to say they were unfairly banned, they're not going to admit to cheating. People come up with the dumbest excuses all the time. Sometimes a Valve employee will even step in and tell them exactly what they did. That usually shuts them up.
I'm definitely for adding VAC. I think it's the best anti-cheat software out there. Sure, it's not perfect but it's a good start and will scare away a lot of potential cheaters.
It seems like having some cheat detecting mechanism that has serious repercussions, like game wide bans, would be better than no repercussions at all. I would like to see VAC eventually implemented.
<!--quoteo(post=2000268:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:35 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 29 2012, 11:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2000268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hugh is right, I agree, pre-packaged VAC and PB systems do not get rid of cheats. Mere minutes/hours after VAC/PB get updated, the cheat companies update their cheats to be undetected from the VAC/PB update. So it's kind of a waste of time against someone subscribed to a cheat provider, unless that cheater plays in the few minutes/hours before the cheat provider updates the cheats.
What VAC/PB successfully do though, is provide a basic filter against anyone firing up some kind of memory editor (which are readily available) and messing with things with the intention to cheat - then posting it on some unmoderated forum and then everyone starts cheating because there's no mechanism to stop it. And I'm not talking about something obvious as an aimbot, but rather a wallhack which is much harder to detect even for server admins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AFAIK VAC does absolutely nothing outside of the first party valve games aside from a check against a database of public cheats. For example in NS1 you can open the game dll in a debugger and nop one line of assembler code to reactivate blocked commands like r_drawviewmodel 0 and _special and VAC will do nothing.
You have two types of cheaters, you have the blatant troll types who I can tell are aimbotting the first time they kill me because they have it cranked up to 100% accuracy and firing on the first possible frame and then you have much more subtle people who are trying to emulate a top level legit player. Generally you are going to need a lot of experience at a high level in that game to differentiate between the legitimately good and the subtle cheats, things like their positioning and tactics consistently being off from what a player would do in that situation if they only had legitimately available information. The vast majority of people who get accused of cheating are legit in my experience.
<!--quoteo(post=2000253:date=Oct 30 2012, 12:23 AM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Oct 30 2012, 12:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2000253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually yes, and its impossible to repeal. VAC Is a broken ideoligy and we need to take a step away from such things, PB and VAC never worked, they just made you feel more secure, they never actualy stop hackers, it just breaks the gaming experience for a few legit players. Like me. When VAC actually prevents more hackers than prevents legit players from playing the game they purchased, inform me, and I'll stop hating it so bad.
Please Hugh, don't even let the others consider it, it causes more headaches than it solves.
For any conformation of how broken VAC is, Just google something that will help you find the millions of complaints made against it either because it doesn't prevent hackers (at all) or unfair and unruly bans (i.e without doing anything in the way of hacking or for no reason at all), trust me, it causes more problems than it will ever solve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
20 Bucks say, that you did cheat for getting banned. Even if you don't call it that way. I bet you edited a game file to get banned. Maybe installed some strange mod that alters an exe? Srsly, VAC is no danger for the normal customer that plays the game like it is intended to play. And even the few cases where it had banned the wrong people, (and that wrong ban got mostly reversed) doesn't justify to abandon it. Creating a bad experience for a few players that altered their game exe (for what reasons ever) is better than creating a bad experience for many people that are plagued by cheaters.
I lived in the time before VAC and PB and man were that dark times. You nearly couldn't play one day of CS without encountering an obvious cheater. VAC was such a relief. (Even if it is only a deterrent!) I haven't encountered a cheater in my 1400 hours of TF2. It should be implemented in NS2 as fast as possible. At the beginning protect the consistency checking. Later you can add more checks. But the pure deterrent, that there is some protection that could cost you your game, should be enough at first.
Oh and btw. Be careful with comparing DRM and Anti-Cheat. A pirate may have morals. They may just try the game and buy it if they like it. (So DRM can make you sell less copies.) A cheater has never any moral. He knows that he destroys the fun of other players for their own. And he doesn't give a #### (With anti-cheat software you may even sell more copies as have been stated.)
And don't underestimate how fast a community can die if more and more cheaters are playing the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2011103:date=Nov 5 2012, 08:56 AM:name=Safewood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Safewood @ Nov 5 2012, 08:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->VAC is useless. You can use hacks from all back to 2004, which still bypasses the latest updates from VAC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2011067:date=Nov 5 2012, 08:24 AM:name=MinstrelJCF)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MinstrelJCF @ Nov 5 2012, 08:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->AFAIK VAC does absolutely nothing outside of the first party valve games aside from a check against a database of public cheats. For example in NS1 you can open the game dll in a debugger and nop one line of assembler code to reactivate blocked commands like r_drawviewmodel 0 and _special and VAC will do nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't help but wonder... have you tried this yourself on a steam account with the said games? Because a lot of the "hearsay" about how VAC is evil and it bans innocent people all the time etc. stems from 10 year old kids whining about being banned after donwloading 1337 |-|4><><...
Just check the steam VAC forum. I drop by to lulz there once in a while.
<!--quoteo(post=2000320:date=Oct 29 2012, 04:36 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Oct 29 2012, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2000320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First person spectator is planned for shortly after release (as is a lot of other stuff). They need to do some changes in the engine to facilitate it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And we will also be able to tell who we are spectating right?
thank goodness whooo no vac i dont cheat but i hate VAC it seems like most vac secured games lag like hell on my computer even when i meet /exceed all the specs and its only vac games so i tend to avoid them
In all seriousness, pump a good first person spectator and demo system out first, and play on servers with good admins. Comp and well maintained servers would be just fine with those 3 things.
It boils down to the communities responsibilities to have well admined servers to provide a cheat free place to play, not a developer or a third party anti-cheat.
<!--quoteo(post=2011266:date=Nov 5 2012, 05:42 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 5 2012, 05:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't help but wonder... have you tried this yourself on a steam account with the said games? Because a lot of the "hearsay" about how VAC is evil and it bans innocent people all the time etc. stems from 10 year old kids whining about being banned after donwloading 1337 |-|4><><...
Just check the steam VAC forum. I drop by to lulz there once in a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whether if it bans innocent people I have no idea of, and to be honest have no regard for. I have like 3-4 Steam accounts, and I had heard of this through friends about VAC not being able to detect 8 years old hacks, so I went on to find public hacks through Google which I went on VAC-enabled public server to cheat. What do you know? The steam account is still fine and dandy. The only account I have, which is my main account, that has a VAC-ban, is from fiddling with the GCF file where I re-textured the models for MW2. If they saw this as cheating, I'm okay with it, because it did give me an advantage over the others; one team was completely green and the other completely purple. I just thought I would never get banned for something like that, and rather they fix a consistency check like every other game.
<!--quoteo(post=2018248:date=Nov 10 2012, 05:11 AM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Nov 10 2012, 05:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018248"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro--><sup>The forum is a not a place for name and shame. If you suspect someone is cheating, please send any available evidence of your claims to the server administrators.
UWE's stance on anti-cheat right now is that consistency checking will eliminate a lot of possible cheats and the community can take it upon themselves to punish offenders when they arise. VAC is being considered for the future, but there's no solid plans to increase anti-cheat measures right now.
Lol this is a post I received from a forum moderator after reporting a hacker in this very forums. It would appear that UWE has no intent on getting rid of hackers. They're saying VAC is considered in the future. Who knows how long that will be or if it will ever be. And as far as consistency checking? Really? Do you know how easy it is to bypass consistency? People have been doing it in CS 1.6 and CSS for years. And that's only to prevent wallhacks and material hacks. Not a scripted aimbot... Even states there are no solid plans to increase anti-cheat in the future. Since UWE has no intention on doing anything about it. Is this a free pass to start hacking UWE?
Quote From Original Thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124114" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=124114</a>
<!--quoteo(post=2018380:date=Nov 10 2012, 10:40 AM:name=grizzlyyy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (grizzlyyy @ Nov 10 2012, 10:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018380"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol this is a post I received from a forum moderator after reporting a hacker in this very forums. It would appear that UWE has no intent on getting rid of hackers. They're saying VAC is considered in the future. Who knows how long that will be or if it will ever be. And as far as consistency checking? Really? Do you know how easy it is to bypass consistency? People have been doing it in CS 1.6 and CSS for years. And that's only to prevent wallhacks and material hacks. Not a scripted aimbot... Even states there are no solid plans to increase anti-cheat in the future. Since UWE has no intention on doing anything about it. Is this a free pass to start hacking UWE?
Quote From Original Thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124114" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=124114</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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<!--QuoteBegin-Steamworks API+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steamworks API)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Integration work with the VAC Steamworks C++ API is simple, because the heavy-lifting is left to Steam. An advantage is that cheat detection is not handled directly by your game client. The only thing your game needs to do is use the API to find out whether or not a given user is VAC banned.
VAC is a component of Steamworks and the Steam client, and works by scanning the users system for cheats while your game is running. It works a lot like a virus scanner, and has a database of known cheats to detect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keep in mind that "known cheats to detect" also means "known cheat methods" which will catch new and unknown hacks using known cheat methods.
Sorry for whining a lot about this, but this is very confusing to me (and probably other PC gamers). Not only is a multiplayer-only game (with a competitive scene) launching in 2012 with no anti-cheat (which is readily available via Steamworks which they are already using), but that the devs don't see the problem with this.
I enjoy playing NS2 and I don't wanna see it get ruined by hackers.
Circumventing the consistency checks is what will happen now. This is ideally what VAC would be preventing - the modification of the code for consistency checking (whether on disk or in memory). It does more than that, but right now there is no protection (or deterrent) for doing that. Hackers might be banned from the few servers with active admins, but now with the 100+ servers UWE are adding which will be unmoderated like every other official server in every other game, those bans will be insignificant and players will still be heavily affected by hackers whether UWE would like to believe so or not.
It's very easy to defeat and distribute. From there any noob can edit the LUA to make cheats easily.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><u>But that's not even the point of this thread</u>.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<u> There will always be cheats for games even if they have anti-cheat.</u> The point of this thread is that there is no real risk in cheating. Because of this, more people are prone to do it, even people who generally don't cheat and are just doing it for fun. There are some high value (as in more than usual e-glory) tournaments going on and with no risk of cheating, why not cheat to actually gain something real. With no risks, cheating could get out of hand fast.
Consistency checking? Læwlz, please.
And yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing those 100's of official servers moderated and all suspicious people with high K/D banned...
Any multiplayer game, not just this game, needs SOME form of simple, basic memory editor protection running all the time.
If someone got banned in a half life 1 engine game, could they still play online in other multiplayer games that use different game engines and are VAC protected?
If someone got banned in a half life 1 engine game, could they still play online in other multiplayer games that use different game engines and are VAC protected?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes.
It appears you didn't even go as far as to consider the limitations of your own knowledge about UWE does and does not do.
<!--quoteo(post=2000165:date=Oct 30 2012, 06:58 AM:name=Camron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camron @ Oct 30 2012, 06:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2000165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is very confusing to me<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Allow me to clear up your confusion about VAC, please consider the following:
<!--quoteo(post=2000165:date=Oct 30 2012, 06:58 AM:name=Camron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Camron @ Oct 30 2012, 06:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2000165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[VAC] is readily available via Steamworks which they are already using<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are confusing readily available with 'easy to implement.'
Now, anyone that reads this thread would do will to remember that repeated, high pitch posting does not equal reliable information about a subject. UWE's anti-cheat policy is multi-pronged and thus:
1. Provide the community with the capability to develop their own anti-cheat tools and provide basic anti-cheat tools out of the box
2. Where appropriate and efficient, implement anti-cheat systems such as consistency checking and which may at some point include VAC.
3. Wherever possible, foster and support a positive community atmosphere in which honest players feel they have real voice and power against cheaters.
You can find more thoughts on this subject in this presentation at DreamHack earlier this year: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIBCWcFLIhY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIBCWcFLIhY</a> at about 23:00. In it, I refer to VAC as one of the ways in which we intend to fight cheaters. Since then, the effectiveness and efficiency of VAC implementation has been further investigated and its limitations more apparent.
The most effective anti-cheat system will always be community driven. Computers, algorithms and robots cannot fight cheaters like you can, when properly empowered. The aim is to empower you.
Actually yes, and its impossible to repeal. VAC Is a broken ideoligy and we need to take a step away from such things, PB and VAC never worked, they just made you feel more secure, they never actualy stop hackers, it just breaks the gaming experience for a few legit players. Like me. When VAC actually prevents more hackers than prevents legit players from playing the game they purchased, inform me, and I'll stop hating it so bad.
Please Hugh, don't even let the others consider it, it causes more headaches than it solves.
For any conformation of how broken VAC is, Just google something that will help you find the millions of complaints made against it either because it doesn't prevent hackers (at all) or unfair and unruly bans (i.e without doing anything in the way of hacking or for no reason at all), trust me, it causes more problems than it will ever solve.
What VAC/PB successfully do though, is provide a basic filter against anyone firing up some kind of memory editor (which are readily available) and messing with things with the intention to cheat - then posting it on some unmoderated forum and then everyone starts cheating because there's no mechanism to stop it. And I'm not talking about something obvious as an aimbot, but rather a wallhack which is much harder to detect even for server admins.
If someone got banned in a half life 1 engine game, could they still play online in other multiplayer games that use different game engines and are VAC protected?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Dghelneshi is wrong here, if you are VAC banned it's your account and all your games with it.
Camron, I agree with you, that VAC should be used there. Not because it does find the cheaters (because it's not really good at it), but because it scare people and make them think two times before wanting to try it. You can have good community tools, but if they cheat, they will keep changing servers without being worried. And actually we don't have any good community tools, like the essential: first person spectator.
But keep in mind that nothing is static and hopefully, it will come.
Camron is not saying that VAC will detect cheaters and prevent them from playing. But that VAC will scare them until it detect them (if it does). It obviously won't stop all the cheaters (or a lot), but at least it will prevent some of them to just try the cheat. If there is no drawback by using a cheat other than being banned on a server, nothing is gonna refrain them to try cheats.
Losing your account (at least multiplayer games) is more scary, and at least, they can buy NS2 again if they get caught :P
This is not true. It's on a per engine basis for all games prior to (but not including) Left 4 Dead. After that it's on a per game basis.
<a href="http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22782122&postcount=10" target="_blank">http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/show...mp;postcount=10</a>
Also, I view community admins to be the last line of defense with regards to dealing with cheaters. Quite simply, well-adminned servers with quality admins are minority of the servers in any online multiplayer. Even the best admins will have trouble making objective decisions on a consistent basis. The best solution has been and always will be automated processes that deal with cheaters on a consistent basis with minimal influence from admins, aka an anti-cheat program.
VAC is not a panacea, it will not be included in the game at launch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
while I don't disagree with this statement - what exactly are our tools? is first person spectate planned for a future patch? votekick?
<!--quoteo(post=2000253:date=Oct 29 2012, 02:23 PM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Oct 29 2012, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2000253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually yes, and its impossible to repeal. VAC Is a broken ideoligy and we need to take a step away from such things, PB and VAC never worked, they just made you feel more secure, they never actualy stop hackers, it just breaks the gaming experience for a few legit players. Like me. When VAC actually prevents more hackers than prevents legit players from playing the game they purchased, inform me, and I'll stop hating it so bad.
Please Hugh, don't even let the others consider it, it causes more headaches than it solves.
For any conformation of how broken VAC is, Just google something that will help you find the millions of complaints made against it either because it doesn't prevent hackers (at all) or unfair and unruly bans (i.e without doing anything in the way of hacking or for no reason at all), trust me, it causes more problems than it will ever solve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't believe this is that big of an issue at all. VAC has only had a handful of false positives due to some MP3 plugin interfacing improperly<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->*<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->, and as far as I know, the people affected had their bans overturned (edit: according to the link, not fully true I guess). please provide any example of VAC being a hindrance to gameplay. Cheating-Death and Punkbuster I absolutely agree were trash. VAC is not the be all end all, but it certainly is nice to have and did stop a large amount of cheaters, 1 because it was mildly effective (due to the delayed ban system), and secondly as a deterrent.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->*<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Anti-Cheat#False-positive_detections" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Anti-Ch...tive_detections</a>
Cheats have a bigger impact in NS2 because of the uneven playing field. Each "faction"/team has different abilities that give them certain advantages and disadvantages. Cheats can nullify most of one faction's advantages making the game severely imbalanced. The Aliens are pretty much screwed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ehm. Cheaters make every game imbalanced and not fun to play.
Off-Topic:
I've read some comments from the Giant Bomb video, and they seem to have left a very good impression. Both the game and the natural being and ways to talk of Charlie and Hugh. Good to see that even players who don't know the game for years feel the UWE mood by watching a video.
<a href="http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22782122&postcount=10" target="_blank">http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/show...mp;postcount=10</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, I didn't knew that... It's kind of sad :/
If it didn't prevent any hackers explain all of the complaints on the Steam forum about being banned because they "accidently" downloaded hacking software?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->or unfair and unruly bans (i.e without doing anything in the way of hacking or for no reason at all), trust me, it causes more problems than it will ever solve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha! Of course people are going to say they were unfairly banned, they're not going to admit to cheating. People come up with the dumbest excuses all the time. Sometimes a Valve employee will even step in and tell them exactly what they did. That usually shuts them up.
I'm definitely for adding VAC. I think it's the best anti-cheat software out there. Sure, it's not perfect but it's a good start and will scare away a lot of potential cheaters.
What VAC/PB successfully do though, is provide a basic filter against anyone firing up some kind of memory editor (which are readily available) and messing with things with the intention to cheat - then posting it on some unmoderated forum and then everyone starts cheating because there's no mechanism to stop it. And I'm not talking about something obvious as an aimbot, but rather a wallhack which is much harder to detect even for server admins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AFAIK VAC does absolutely nothing outside of the first party valve games aside from a check against a database of public cheats. For example in NS1 you can open the game dll in a debugger and nop one line of assembler code to reactivate blocked commands like r_drawviewmodel 0 and _special and VAC will do nothing.
You have two types of cheaters, you have the blatant troll types who I can tell are aimbotting the first time they kill me because they have it cranked up to 100% accuracy and firing on the first possible frame and then you have much more subtle people who are trying to emulate a top level legit player. Generally you are going to need a lot of experience at a high level in that game to differentiate between the legitimately good and the subtle cheats, things like their positioning and tactics consistently being off from what a player would do in that situation if they only had legitimately available information. The vast majority of people who get accused of cheating are legit in my experience.
Please Hugh, don't even let the others consider it, it causes more headaches than it solves.
For any conformation of how broken VAC is, Just google something that will help you find the millions of complaints made against it either because it doesn't prevent hackers (at all) or unfair and unruly bans (i.e without doing anything in the way of hacking or for no reason at all), trust me, it causes more problems than it will ever solve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
20 Bucks say, that you did cheat for getting banned. Even if you don't call it that way. I bet you edited a game file to get banned. Maybe installed some strange mod that alters an exe?
Srsly, VAC is no danger for the normal customer that plays the game like it is intended to play. And even the few cases where it had banned the wrong people, (and that wrong ban got mostly reversed) doesn't justify to abandon it. Creating a bad experience for a few players that altered their game exe (for what reasons ever) is better than creating a bad experience for many people that are plagued by cheaters.
I lived in the time before VAC and PB and man were that dark times. You nearly couldn't play one day of CS without encountering an obvious cheater. VAC was such a relief. (Even if it is only a deterrent!) I haven't encountered a cheater in my 1400 hours of TF2. It should be implemented in NS2 as fast as possible. At the beginning protect the consistency checking. Later you can add more checks. But the pure deterrent, that there is some protection that could cost you your game, should be enough at first.
Oh and btw. Be careful with comparing DRM and Anti-Cheat. A pirate may have morals. They may just try the game and buy it if they like it. (So DRM can make you sell less copies.) A cheater has never any moral. He knows that he destroys the fun of other players for their own. And he doesn't give a #### (With anti-cheat software you may even sell more copies as have been stated.)
And don't underestimate how fast a community can die if more and more cheaters are playing the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2011067:date=Nov 5 2012, 08:24 AM:name=MinstrelJCF)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MinstrelJCF @ Nov 5 2012, 08:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->AFAIK VAC does absolutely nothing outside of the first party valve games aside from a check against a database of public cheats. For example in NS1 you can open the game dll in a debugger and nop one line of assembler code to reactivate blocked commands like r_drawviewmodel 0 and _special and VAC will do nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't help but wonder... have you tried this yourself on a steam account with the said games? Because a lot of the "hearsay" about how VAC is evil and it bans innocent people all the time etc. stems from 10 year old kids whining about being banned after donwloading 1337 |-|4><><...
Just check the steam VAC forum. I drop by to lulz there once in a while.
And we will also be able to tell who we are spectating right?
In all seriousness, pump a good first person spectator and demo system out first, and play on servers with good admins. Comp and well maintained servers would be just fine with those 3 things.
It boils down to the communities responsibilities to have well admined servers to provide a cheat free place to play, not a developer or a third party anti-cheat.
Just check the steam VAC forum. I drop by to lulz there once in a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whether if it bans innocent people I have no idea of, and to be honest have no regard for. I have like 3-4 Steam accounts, and I had heard of this through friends about VAC not being able to detect 8 years old hacks, so I went on to find public hacks through Google which I went on VAC-enabled public server to cheat. What do you know? The steam account is still fine and dandy.
The only account I have, which is my main account, that has a VAC-ban, is from fiddling with the GCF file where I re-textured the models for MW2. If they saw this as cheating, I'm okay with it, because it did give me an advantage over the others; one team was completely green and the other completely purple. I just thought I would never get banned for something like that, and rather they fix a consistency check like every other game.
UWE's stance on anti-cheat right now is that consistency checking will eliminate a lot of possible cheats and the community can take it upon themselves to punish offenders when they arise. VAC is being considered for the future, but there's no solid plans to increase anti-cheat measures right now.
Thank you for your consideration.
*Closed*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></sup><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol this is a post I received from a forum moderator after reporting a hacker in this very forums. It would appear that UWE has no intent on getting rid of hackers. They're saying VAC is considered in the future. Who knows how long that will be or if it will ever be. And as far as consistency checking? Really? Do you know how easy it is to bypass consistency? People have been doing it in CS 1.6 and CSS for years. And that's only to prevent wallhacks and material hacks. Not a scripted aimbot... Even states there are no solid plans to increase anti-cheat in the future. Since UWE has no intention on doing anything about it. Is this a free pass to start hacking UWE?
Quote From Original Thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124114" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=124114</a>
Quote From Original Thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124114" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=124114</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
VAC was enabled on Wednesday.
Not it wasn't. Look at the date of that post. That's earlier this morning. VAC is not enabled. I don't know where you got that information.