I hope I could show UWE what a lot of use decry in this build, if they have a look on these videos. I know you guys will give your best to improve that.
Seems like you have to aim slightly ahead atm. (or at least aiming more towards the butt of a skulk seems unreliable)
Also the good old animation problems are still there - so sometimes hits are not registered on harvesters while flinch animation etc. (fade also has/had?(last time i tested it was 223) such a problem)
<!--quoteo(post=1998915:date=Oct 28 2012, 11:54 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Oct 28 2012, 11:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bloodsplats and hit sounds are clientside. I know this because I shot a skulk point blank in the face in a vent and saw blood and heard him scream.... 0 dmg :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From the false positives siggi posted, this doesn't seem to be the case.
The times when the crosshair wasn't on the skulk, but the hit was registered anyway, the blood splatter still came from the skulks model (where the crosshair wasn't aiming). I think I'm correct in saying that, if the blood splatters were client side, they would appear where the shot intersected with the incorrectly placed hitbox, ie in the middle of the air, not on the skulks model.
Instead, once the false positive is registered, it is sent back to the server, and the server generates the blood splatter at the only location it could feasibly occur, which is on the skulk's model.
Its either that, or the firing is actually lacking in compensation. So if a player has 100ms and at t = 0 there crosshair is at point A, and at t = 100ms their crosshair is at point B, pulling the trigger still fires at point A. This seems unlikely though.
<!--quoteo(post=1998967:date=Oct 28 2012, 03:12 PM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Max @ Oct 28 2012, 03:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We are investigating to see if there are any issues with hit registration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good to hear Max, definitely something wrong, plenty of time to get it sorted! ;]
NeonSpyder"Das est NTLDR?"Join Date: 2003-07-03Member: 17913Members
I had a little bit of an issue with this with the first game of 224 I played, shooting a skulk as a marine had some issues. I haven't noticed anything since then but then I've mostly been playing aliens which feels pretty decent as far as hit reg is concerned, though once or twice I've landed glancing blows or missed when it should have been a full hit. Not that noticeable though.
<!--quoteo(post=1998967:date=Oct 28 2012, 02:12 PM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Max @ Oct 28 2012, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We are investigating to see if there are any issues with hit registration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In this video the last shotgun shot seems to be delayed about 1/2 seconds. Might be a firing start problem instead of hit registration:
<!--quoteo(post=1998970:date=Oct 28 2012, 07:23 AM:name=Dusteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dusteh @ Oct 28 2012, 07:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good to hear Max, definitely something wrong, plenty of time to get it sorted! ;]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1998990:date=Oct 28 2012, 03:55 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Oct 28 2012, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998990"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In this video the last shotgun shot seems to be delayed about 1/2 seconds. Might be a firing start problem instead of hit registration:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwftRSYBLM8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwftRSYBLM8</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That would make sense if the move merging optimization is too aggressive and delays the shoot command.
<!--quoteo(post=1998977:date=Oct 28 2012, 02:32 PM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Oct 28 2012, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998977"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just another passerby here to confirm the getting shot around and shooting around walls.
Please fix, I can't play Lerk anymore because of this. It's jokingly easy to die as Lerk now :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You aren't dying because of getting shot through walls, you're dying and just not knowing it until a 1/2 second later. Someone posted a good explanation in another thread, I'll do my best to paraphrase it here:
The game is using client-side hit reg. If you fly through a room as a lerk and remain visible for 2 seconds, the marine shooting at you will also see you visible for 2 seconds. Because he has 100 ping and you have 100 ping, he is seeing you fly through the room 200ms in the past. He doesn't get to see you or shoot at you any longer than he should have been able to, but you don't die for 200ms until after he's killed you, and that's why you seem to be shot through a wall.
Hit reg seems fine to me, but clearly people seem to be having problems.
Could be related: I think it has something to do with the bug that suddenly I get "relocated" a bunch of times per map. Ping was constantly 60-90, but maybe 3 times in a 30min map I saw me "jumping back" maybe 10 meters.. definetly didn't happen before, though I didn't play 224 for more than 2 hours, today with 225 it happended every 10-20 minutes. Was a full packed 24 player server, though. The only thing I changed before playing was turning of experimental texture streaming, but I guess that is not related (have a slow HDD; no SSD, but without the texture streaming I get no missing textures anymore, and perf at least doesn't get worse.. subjective feeling).
it's extremely difficult to pinpoint these issues because the shotgun is so unreliable. I hadn't realized it before analyzing my own footage in slow motion, but the shotgun fires nowhere near the crosshair, <i>randomly</i>. this is an incredibly frustrating mechanic to deal with, and I'm sure it's the cause of a large portion of these complaints. I mean, come on. what is this? <img src="http://i.imgur.com/xbCry.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> the crosshair is 64x64, and the spread is about that size, but about about 64x64 to the bottom and to the left. :/ <img src="http://i.imgur.com/SaFu4.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> spot on? this is ridiculous. there's no way to gather reasonable data. point-blank shots can do -17 damage, great. but is it because of netcode, or because the shotgun spread is based on the phases of the moon?
I'm having the same issues Princess.. Im freaking shooting aliens dead on and registering no dmg or very minimal dmg. I cannot kill anything with the shotgun, when I do kill its because I missed and my crosshair was off the target.
i've found the same with aliens, biting with skulk, dead on only dealing 25-50 dmg, not the usual 75 -- so i'm hitting marines 6-7 times and they're not dieing --- hitting them the same in 223 would down them in ~4 bites
It feels almost like the shots are hitting where you were aiming a couple of frames ago, and you need to try and have your shots hit where the target is going to be in a few frames. It's a little bizarre, feels like playing back in the late 90s before Half-Life had lag compensation and you had to lead the target by your ping.
<!--quoteo(post=1998902:date=Oct 28 2012, 03:59 AM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Oct 28 2012, 03:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sending information about blood would be way too much network traffic I think. I'm pretty sure blood is still client side. The damage numbers are sent from the server since b221 (I think). The red crosshair hit marker is definitely server side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I was confusing blood with the crosshair marker. Damage numbers and the crosshair hit inidicator are <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?act=findpost&pid=1997057" target="_blank">from the server</a>.
I dont know if its hitreg or some other mechanic thats buggy but I am having the same issues reported in this thread. Even dead on shots don't seem to hit my target.
If you're having trouble with hitreg, be sure to turn on net_stats and check the server rate. After 224 you won't usually notice clientside choppiness as the rate goes down, but it definitely still affects the playability of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1998984:date=Oct 29 2012, 12:46 AM:name=NeonSpyder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeonSpyder @ Oct 29 2012, 12:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I had a little bit of an issue with this with the first game of 224 I played, shooting a skulk as a marine had some issues. I haven't noticed anything since then but then I've mostly been playing aliens which feels pretty decent as far as hit reg is concerned, though once or twice I've landed glancing blows or missed when it should have been a full hit. Not that noticeable though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1999065:date=Oct 29 2012, 06:05 AM:name=Scubbo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scubbo @ Oct 29 2012, 06:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i've found the same with aliens, biting with skulk, dead on only dealing 25-50 dmg, not the usual 75 -- so i'm hitting marines 6-7 times and they're not dieing --- hitting them the same in 223 would down them in ~4 bites<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I put a video up on page 3 of skulks bites somehow doing 50's from spot on middle of screen bites and laughable 25's
<!--quoteo(post=1999122:date=Oct 28 2012, 05:22 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Oct 28 2012, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It feels almost like the shots are hitting where you were aiming a couple of frames ago, and you need to try and have your shots hit where the target is going to be in a few frames. It's a little bizarre, feels like playing back in the late 90s before Half-Life had lag compensation and you had to lead the target by your ping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was my guess - there is a timing issue somewhere. Both the client and the server are agreeing that the shots are missing when they look like they should hit, so maybe the rendering code is showing a different point in time to what the hit-reg code is using.
I don't really care about the specifics of it so much as I do how pissed off I get when I hit a skulk about 3 times with a shotgun straight on and he still lives.
Theres really no use in trying to blame bad hitreg on server tickrates or any other factors unrelated to whatever changes were made in 224-225. Anyone who has a very honed playstyle is going to notice their effectiveness dropping by a considerable amount. I am losing engagements with skulks that I NEVER would have lost in early stable hitreg builds.
I barely netted any performance gain from 224-225 (Though I know many have seen large improvements who are already on monster rigs) and I have experienced 30-35% worse registration of shots. I could, in confidence, shoot down 2 skulks per magazine (Still less than should be possible). Now I feel good if I get 1, and pray that my pistol regs the next skulk coming.
I have also done testing on skulks sitting completely still. You will not notice a confirmation of the kill until you have expended 20 rounds of LMG fire. This is actually an extremely big deal for an FPS game. Counting shots should be viable, and you shouldn't have to waste extra rounds per skulk. On average you will be wasting 20 rounds on every 2 skulks you encounter, which can tip the scales into losing engagements. 40% your magazines are being wasted in 225 when engaging skulks. I get this number by considering you should be able to kill 2 skulks per mag and with the laggy lag compensation and registry delay you are wasting ammo which = marine nerf. In theory you should be able to kill more though....
Please do these tests for yourselves and report back to this thread. You should be seeing skulks die as soon as you have expended 10 rounds of ammo (Give or take with ping as a factor).
I really hope the developers aren't trying to sweep this one under the stove and hope it goes by unnoticed. It would be soothing to hear an official response about work being done on hitreg and a timeframe for possible fixes. It is making the game not enjoyable for players who have high expectations, and rely on precise game response.
EDIT: There is an obvious delay between when you get the kill message in 225, but I also think hitreg is suffering as well. Put these 2 together and you got one broken FPS.
<!--quoteo(post=1999533:date=Oct 29 2012, 01:07 AM:name=unkind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (unkind @ Oct 29 2012, 01:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999533"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->unrelated but what is it that makes it seem like you die instantly, as in you die as you hear the marine open fire while eating a RT? >< kinda sucks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
I hope I could show UWE what a lot of use decry in this build, if they have a look on these videos. I know you guys will give your best to improve that.
Also the good old animation problems are still there - so sometimes hits are not registered on harvesters while flinch animation etc. (fade also has/had?(last time i tested it was 223) such a problem)
From the false positives siggi posted, this doesn't seem to be the case.
The times when the crosshair wasn't on the skulk, but the hit was registered anyway, the blood splatter still came from the skulks model (where the crosshair wasn't aiming). I think I'm correct in saying that, if the blood splatters were client side, they would appear where the shot intersected with the incorrectly placed hitbox, ie in the middle of the air, not on the skulks model.
Instead, once the false positive is registered, it is sent back to the server, and the server generates the blood splatter at the only location it could feasibly occur, which is on the skulk's model.
Its either that, or the firing is actually lacking in compensation. So if a player has 100ms and at t = 0 there crosshair is at point A, and at t = 100ms their crosshair is at point B, pulling the trigger still fires at point A. This seems unlikely though.
Though I could be completely wrong.
Good to hear Max, definitely something wrong, plenty of time to get it sorted! ;]
Please fix, I can't play Lerk anymore because of this. It's jokingly easy to die as Lerk now :(
In this video the last shotgun shot seems to be delayed about 1/2 seconds. Might be a firing start problem instead of hit registration:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwftRSYBLM8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwftRSYBLM8</a>
3 days isn't much time.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwftRSYBLM8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwftRSYBLM8</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would make sense if the move merging optimization is too aggressive and delays the shoot command.
Please fix, I can't play Lerk anymore because of this. It's jokingly easy to die as Lerk now :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You aren't dying because of getting shot through walls, you're dying and just not knowing it until a 1/2 second later. Someone posted a good explanation in another thread, I'll do my best to paraphrase it here:
The game is using client-side hit reg. If you fly through a room as a lerk and remain visible for 2 seconds, the marine shooting at you will also see you visible for 2 seconds. Because he has 100 ping and you have 100 ping, he is seeing you fly through the room 200ms in the past. He doesn't get to see you or shoot at you any longer than he should have been able to, but you don't die for 200ms until after he's killed you, and that's why you seem to be shot through a wall.
Hit reg seems fine to me, but clearly people seem to be having problems.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/xbCry.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
the crosshair is 64x64, and the spread is about that size, but about about 64x64 to the bottom and to the left. :/
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/SaFu4.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
spot on?
this is ridiculous. there's no way to gather reasonable data. point-blank shots can do -17 damage, great. but is it because of netcode, or because the shotgun spread is based on the phases of the moon?
Yes, I was confusing blood with the crosshair marker. Damage numbers and the crosshair hit inidicator are <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?act=findpost&pid=1997057" target="_blank">from the server</a>.
(I think NS1 had blood from the server?)
<!--quoteo(post=1999065:date=Oct 29 2012, 06:05 AM:name=Scubbo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scubbo @ Oct 29 2012, 06:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i've found the same with aliens, biting with skulk, dead on only dealing 25-50 dmg, not the usual 75 -- so i'm hitting marines 6-7 times and they're not dieing --- hitting them the same in 223 would down them in ~4 bites<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I put a video up on page 3 of skulks bites somehow doing 50's from spot on middle of screen bites and laughable 25's
That was my guess - there is a timing issue somewhere. Both the client and the server are agreeing that the shots are missing when they look like they should hit, so maybe the rendering code is showing a different point in time to what the hit-reg code is using.
I barely netted any performance gain from 224-225 (Though I know many have seen large improvements who are already on monster rigs) and I have experienced 30-35% worse registration of shots. I could, in confidence, shoot down 2 skulks per magazine (Still less than should be possible). Now I feel good if I get 1, and pray that my pistol regs the next skulk coming.
I have also done testing on skulks sitting completely still. You will not notice a confirmation of the kill until you have expended 20 rounds of LMG fire. This is actually an extremely big deal for an FPS game. Counting shots should be viable, and you shouldn't have to waste extra rounds per skulk. On average you will be wasting 20 rounds on every 2 skulks you encounter, which can tip the scales into losing engagements. 40% your magazines are being wasted in 225 when engaging skulks. I get this number by considering you should be able to kill 2 skulks per mag and with the laggy lag compensation and registry delay you are wasting ammo which = marine nerf. In theory you should be able to kill more though....
Please do these tests for yourselves and report back to this thread. You should be seeing skulks die as soon as you have expended 10 rounds of ammo (Give or take with ping as a factor).
I really hope the developers aren't trying to sweep this one under the stove and hope it goes by unnoticed. It would be soothing to hear an official response about work being done on hitreg and a timeframe for possible fixes. It is making the game not enjoyable for players who have high expectations, and rely on precise game response.
EDIT:
There is an obvious delay between when you get the kill message in 225, but I also think hitreg is suffering as well. Put these 2 together and you got one broken FPS.
were you shot with a pistol?