Lets Discuss Kills / Objectives Being Worth Rez
TimmahIsASaint
Join Date: 2012-09-24 Member: 160678Members
Join Date: 2012-09-24 Member: 160678Members
I'd just like an orderly discussion on why it isn't being implemented, why it should/shouldn't be implemented and how it would effect the current state of the game. I watched the entirety of the Logitech Tournament, The Wasabi Cup but also hundreds of pub games and playing in a bunch. I think its quite clear Aliens have a distinct disadvantage and are forced to get a second hive to even be competitive which can be very luck based. Personally I think Kills should be worth around 1 rez because I think aliens need to be able to speed up their personal rez flow, but even more than that it fastens the pace of the game and gives player satisfaction for kills AS well as completing objectives. This would then give commanders more power in helping their team because they would be rewarded for completing objectives. Just my two cents. Please leave your thoughts ! :D
Comments
I agree with you.
Fancy that.
Fancy that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->We need more!
<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
RFK snowballs good players into unstoppable killing machine and mudslides bad ones into active hindrances to their team. If you want resources, complete the objective of keeping your damn towers alive.
RFK snowballs good players into unstoppable killing machine and mudslides bad ones into active hindrances to their team. If you want resources, complete the objective of keeping your damn towers alive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It didn't do it in.....wait for it....ah you know where it didn't do that.
Is team stacking that bad on the servers you play? I'd expect there to be a balance of skilled players per each side in a public setting. This obviously doesn't hold true all the time, but at least often enough to make your point invalid.
RFK snowballs good players into unstoppable killing machine and mudslides bad ones into active hindrances to their team. If you want resources, complete the objective of keeping your damn towers alive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it encourages solo play more than anything. But for sure on the second part. Sink or swim as a team. UWE is hammering on the RTS element of NS this time around.
Hell, you probably wont even need a comm.....
Hell, you probably wont even need a comm.....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's just not true. Fana and Tane will make a team win on a pub server, no matter if you have RFK or not. The difference is, that right now the opposite team just can sit and wait and keep RTs up. With RFK they have a goal, the goal to have a fast counter and to play the FPS part better.
- in a FPS game with buyable stuff you need to reward players for good actions, so they can buy stuff faster. Otherwise it's just boring.
- bad players don't become better and good players don't become worse without RFK (there is nothing like an 'unstoppable killing machine'-class in NS2, there are just very good players. A good player will keep his Fade alive until he can afford the next one, let there be RFK or not). High Alien-K/D-ratio does not equal winning team. Marines just have to chase away fades/onoses to have time while they heal to do whatever.
- the game will be more exciting with a dynamic appearance of different weapons/lifeforms (no tech-explosions).
- it was never a real problem in NS1, well, not on the alien side, since it was basically a PRes model for aliens (I DON'T want NS2 to be NS1).
These are some pro-arguments.
EDIT: one point updated
EDIT2: "
basie I think it would be a better idea if this game wants to stand out to concentrate on bringing out more of the strategy elements and less of the FPS elements.
In theory that sounds good, but while playing it's boring, not only for me.
The Res for killing structures may be something. But it should give small amounts of Res for damaging them, not for finishing. Because it's really not your skill that decides who lands the last bite on a RT.
- in a FPS game with buyable stuff you need to reward players for good actions, so they can buy stuff faster. Otherwise it's just boring.
- bad players don't become better and good players don't become worse without RFK (there is nothing like an 'unstoppable killing machine'-class in NS2, there are just very good players. A good player will keep his Fade alive until he can afford the next one, let there be RFK or not). High Alien-K/D-ratio does not equal winning team. Marines just have to chase away fades/onoses to have time while they heal to do whatever.
- the game will be more exciting with a dynamic appearance of different weapons/lifeforms (no tech-explosions).
- it was never a real problem in NS1, well, not on the alien side, since it was basically a PRes model for aliens (I DON'T want NS2 to be NS1).
These are some pro-arguments.
EDIT: one point updated
EDIT2: "<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly.
And yes I know there is another page discussing the Logtich tournament and possible changes I think thats what people are referring to but I wanted a specific thread only about Rez for kills.
Honestly if you watch the tournament matches it comes down to Aliens turtling until they get Onos. Aliens TURTLING ? That really doesn't sound like the infestation I'm familiar with. Aliens are supposed to be the mass mobile SWARM ! They are supposed to RULE the map with infestation and being hitting from all corners but instead we have Aliens that have to get an incredibly vulnerable second hive just to SURVIVE . They can get maybe 2 or 3 Rez towers depending on the harrass from Marines and then it is basically skulks running to the closest base to Marines and defending PRAYING that one marine doesn't get in there and destroy upgrades. During this yes one skulk may try and kill unprotected rez towers but it just seems so campy. Meanwhile phase gates offer marines the ability to be anywhere on the map, there bases are never exposed because they can either BEACON or just walk back through phase gates. So while Aliens are highly vulnerable, less mobile marines have a HUGE advantage. I think giving rez for kills would just hasten the pace for alien tech and getting that onos because their early game and mid game is INCREDIBLY weak. And then when FINALLY late game Onos and fades come out its somewhat even.
This would be hard to balance I know but it is NEEDED. Personally I think Marines would NOT get rez per kill but INSTEAD get either MORE or equal Rez for getting Extractors / Building Things / Power Nodes. I think this would be fair asuming the rez per kill isn't too high on the Alien.
I think the rate at which Marines Tech is balanced and very strong early mid and late game where as Aliens tech is very slow and isn't good until Late game.
I know where it <b>did </b>do it, and that's NS1.
Yup and honestly it made kills much more valuable and give a lot more player satisfaction.
egglock and mass alien deaths 'mudslides' the entire team so much. You actually do see this start causing pres scaling issues the higher the player count, especially since aliens are usually sitting on few harvestors so the ticks come rarely and in small ammounts.
The respawn timer doing one egg check and resetting to 12 seconds if there arn't any eggs certainly doesn't help. You get eggs which spawn and don't get 'used' for up to 12 seconds, making them extremely snipable.
Ye, I don't buy this. I have never not shot a skulk because it "wasn't valuable".
I'm not saying you kill a skulk because its now worth a reward, its a reward for doing something well. Rewarding a player is a key component in almost every game.
Never had problems with that honestly. It was a purely positive system for me. And even in NS1 there were never 'unstoppable killing machines', there were only good players. Like in every skill based FPS. High skilled players will rule, no matter what.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->RFK will give the unexperienced players the chance to counter the good ones and an additional motivation other than.....holding Rts...<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Even in Quake you get better weapons when playing good (nice movement, knowledge of the spawn times etc).
Explain
Heres the Logitech Tournament. Go to 37 minutes. Look at how impossible it is for Aliens to break that siege.
Oh go counter attack ? Nope they can just phase back and defend in half a second meanwhile you just wasted a lot of time running while they are pushing. Oh you are all in their base ? Oh beacon back, no damage done AND they can instantly phase gate back to the front lines.
Hugh says "Aliens have 3 resource towers which is a really good amount but I think Marines have too many and are going to explode in tech." Thats the problem. Marine Tech is SO fast compared to Aliens. They have ONE onos and no upgrades. Marines have phase gates, armor lvl 1, mines, welders, weapons lvl 1. And before you say "Well look at the early game." They didn't get outplayed at all. They forced a beacon, they got two hives SUCCESSFULLY and didn't lose either. They went fairly even in the trades but if you looked at the state of the game right now you'd of thought they got decimated.
I'm not saying that it wouldn't possibly resolve perceived balance issues in the game right now. I mean, giving a team res for kills is a straight buff over not having it, and <i>if</i> the aliens are weaker than the marines then buffing them will obviously rectify this somewhat. But the toll that a system like RFK takes on new players is not worth the balance. Balance points can be found anywhere, lets rather look somewhere less detrimental to new players.
RFK snowballs good players into unstoppable killing machine and mudslides bad ones into active hindrances to their team. If you want resources, complete the objective of keeping your damn towers alive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
I already want to leave the server if there is one of those "players" who goes 36-2 as a rine while the rest of his team is at 3-10 kills each.
Now give him res for kills... only makes it worse.
Also the team with more kills gets an advantage.. game shouldnt be about kills at all.
I think he is saying that better players will out cap rez nodes and defend them while players who are less experienced will have less rez nodes and less personal rez. The less experienced will then get some compensation by getting kills instead of just relying on the ticking of rez nodes. I think thats what he means. And the motivational one is pretty obvious. Instead of teams just sitting on rez nodes knowing they have an advantage and turtling wins, teams will be more inclined to engage in combat because they are gaining something more.
I don't think it punishes newer aliens because if their teammates are getting kills now they have a fade they can support or an onos. Now they have more map control for them to work with.
Without RFK:
Good player owns, dies rarely, has always good tech on him.
Bad player dies often, thinks 'meh, can't I do anything to get better tech?'. Waits for Res, avoids combat. Waits.
With RFK (or any reward for skill):
Good player owns, dies rarely, has always good tech on him.
Bad player dies often, thinks 'ok, five more kills and I'll get something better'. Is motivated, tries to get better.
It was like that in NS1 for me and every other game.
Good player owns, dies rarely, has always good tech on him.
Bad player dies often, thinks 'meh, can't I do anything to get better tech?'. Waits for Res, avoids combat. Waits.
With RFK (or any reward for skill):
Good player owns, dies rarely, has always good tech on him.
Bad player dies often, thinks 'ok, five more kills and I'll get something better'. Is motivated, tries to get better.
It was like that on NS1 for me and every other game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This right here says it much better than I did. If a good player rarely dies which they won't cause they are good they are going to be gaining a lot more rez then someone whos dead and not getting rez. If the bad players are dying a lot they are more likely to be in combat and hopefully garnering kills/assists which help aid them in getting personal rez.
Good player owns, dies rarely, has always good tech on him.
Bad player dies often, thinks 'meh, can't I do anything to get better tech?'. Waits for Res, avoids combat. Waits.
With RFK (or any reward for skill):
Good player owns, dies rarely, has always good tech on him.
Bad player dies often, thinks 'ok, five more kills and I'll get something better'. Is motivated, tries to get better.
It was like that in NS1 for me and every other game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The system you described is essentially identical to one in which players are only punished for dying, and given no reward for killing. Every time someone dies they are essentially losing resources because their enemy is gaining resources. To put it simply; it doesn't matter if you have 100 res, if your enemy has 200 res, <b>you are behind</b>. The only difference in your system is that you hide this fact from the player. You make them <b>think </b>that things are going to be better because they are being rewarded for kills, but you aren't showing them the consequences of their death. Then, when they eventually get steam rolled because they were <b>feeding </b>the enemy resources, they have absolutely no idea why it happened. And let me tell you, the single most aggravating thing for new players in a game is not losing, it's not knowing <b>why</b>.