Resources for kills is definitely a superior mechanic to no resources gained while dead. Sure, RFK gives advantage to the players who are doing well, but so does the current mechanic by crippling the players who arent doing well. When you dont lose on your resource gains even when you die, atleast you have a chance to get that lifeform at some point. Tbh. i dont mind if theres rfk or not, but the current mechanic is just bad.
<!--quoteo(post=1995410:date=Oct 23 2012, 02:38 AM:name=Koven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koven @ Oct 23 2012, 02:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No RFK hurts aliens the most. If I'm carrying my team as a skulk surely I deserve to be able to fade much earlier than the guy whos 2-14 but no. The guy whos 2-14 can fade at the exact same time I'll be able to. So It limits me back to his level.
Why even bother becoming good at this game when you're treated just like everyone else?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny because the guy with 2-14 was prob chewing on nodes, i guess that doesnt help the team only kills do.
This is a game that focuses on capturing RTs and map control, every fight gets you resources or loses you it. Your team, as a whole, is why you are winning or losing. You get more Resources by killing others, by defensing a point, by putting one down, by helping build that armory in base. Everything helps you get more resources. The fact that the game doesn't directly Stop the game and force everyone to turn around and make them applaud your awesomeness is one of the things that I like about the game.
It is about the team, not you, and winning is winning. If you want to win, you will get RTs, which will in turn get you and your team more resources. Frequently to do so will take killing the other team, sometimes it won't. Either way, you get Resources or lose them based on your skill and the skill of your team.
Although frequently, without it bieng built into the game, the *people* (yes they are people) might say how well you did if you actually did a good job, even if you didnt necesarily get the highest killcount. In fact, as a commander, you *should* applaud players for doing well..
(Quick Edit: not sure how i feel about the penalty for dying)
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
Resource penalty for death (no res income while dead) is doing more harm to the game than good. I'd like to see it removed.
In almost all the games, Aliens are struggling to Lerk in the first 5 minutes, while Marines can afford shotguns and mines within the first 1 to 2 minutes. In NS2, Aliens can afford Lerks in the first 3 minutes, sometimes as early as the first minute (although everyone started with 25 res, instead of 20).
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
edited October 2012
What about res for commander set objectives? That way everyone gets some reward for something :) (sorry haven't read thru all 5 pages)
or simply having a small multiplier (like 1.25max) for each alien uniquely depeninding their purpose and evolutions.
e.g. a skulk with celerity will will gain the multiplier for a few seconds each time a bullet misses you. a skulk with cloacking will gain the multiplier when you are invisible in near proximity to marines a lerk with adrenaline will gain the multiplier when marines are inside your spores
and so the player picks their play style and then the game gives them a bonus multiplier depending on how well they execute their chosen play style
<!--quoteo(post=1995800:date=Oct 24 2012, 12:10 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Oct 24 2012, 12:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995800"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People are talking about an additional system that adds very subtle depth by allowing good players to reduce the timings on lifeforms by reasonable ammounts (say 30 seconds to a minute on a fade depending on kills). So really, the answer to your dilemna is yes it is noticeable, but only in the context of very tight min/maxing which you see only in competitive 6 v 6. Is 45ish seconds 'too much'? Even without rfk you'll see good players get lifeforms earlier than new players simply because they evolve at 30/50/75 pres on the dot. The whole comparison between good and bad players in the context of a well tweaked rfk system is largely irrelevant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad you mentioned the "only in competitive games" point, essentially torpedoing your entire argument. Fine. For something that would only be prevalent in competitive games, but stands the chance of alienating the vast majority of other players? That is a pretty conclusive reason not to implement it, wouldn't you say?
<!--quoteo(post=1995889:date=Oct 23 2012, 09:09 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Oct 23 2012, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about res for commander set objectives? That way everyone gets some reward for something :) (sorry haven't read thru all 5 pages)
or simply having a small multiplier (like 1.25max) for each alien uniquely depeninding their purpose and evolutions.
e.g. a skulk with celerity will will gain the multiplier for a few seconds each time a bullet misses you. a skulk with cloacking will gain the multiplier when you are invisible in near proximity to marines a lerk with adrenaline will gain the multiplier when marines are inside your spores
and so the player picks their play style and then the game gives them a bonus multiplier depending on how well they execute their chosen play style<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a terrible idea. You want to allow teams to boost up their res flow by standing around marines while invisible? How is that balanced? Res for commander-set objectives is even worse; what's to stop people from spamming objectives to move 5 feet?
The boost for using camouflage well is an easy kill. The boost for dodging bullets is avoiding death. The boost for marines in your spores is a disoriented and dying marine. The boost for following your commander's orders is that you help execute his plan. We already have rewards for doing actions right; it's that you do the action right.
<!--quoteo(post=1995800:date=Oct 23 2012, 04:10 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Oct 23 2012, 04:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995800"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why are people opposed to slightly early lifeforms if they are the result of good play being rewarded, but not slightly early lifeforms if they are the result of a tres strategy?
On the topic of snowballing, xdragon has rightly pointed out good players don't exactly benefit from rfk post-lifeform and spend less pres on marine weapons overall anyway. The 'snowballing effect' is an example of a seemingly intuitive conclusion that is actually quite flawed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am. I don't think either commander should be able to purchase personal upgrades and hand out jetpacks/shotguns/fades/oni like candy in the late game. That's another snowballing effect due to win on top of win (t.res replacing the use of p.res, and then you can use p.res too if you die). The thread isn't about that though.
As far as people "not using p.res to buy weapons" that may be true on the marine side (except shotgun+jp which is an extremely cheap combo anyway that anyone can afford/rfk or not), but on the alien side I would bet anything that any semi-decent player goes fade ASAP, because the jump of survivability, mobility, and generally being able to kill and harass is immense compared to skulks or lerks - nevermind that fades (and oni, situationally) with blink are pretty much the only counter to jetpacks right now.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1995834:date=Oct 23 2012, 04:16 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Oct 23 2012, 04:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995834"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kill aliens, cap res nodes. RES FOR KILL. See?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> lol, nice. <!--quoteo(post=1995743:date=Oct 23 2012, 01:09 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Oct 23 2012, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995743"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see how some people can be so vocally against the RFK system and be totally okay with the terrible RFD (no res while dead) system that's in the game currently. The RFD system has so many more negative aspects than RFK would.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There was a thread that was titled something like "Who is for no pres while dead?" and i remember 2 or 3 pages of not a single person advocating for it?
As far as I'm concerned there is absolutely no evidence that RFK is a valid remedy to the problem of tech explosions. Its even debatable whether or not NS1 did or didn't suffer from tech explosion, but even if it didn't, that was due to the absolutely necessity of lower level lifeforms at all stages of the game, and had very little to do with getting one or two res here and there.
Lifeform explosions could easily be addressed be making alien upgrades cost p.res again, based on the platform. I.e skulk carapace would be 1 p.res while onos carapace could be for example 3. It creates a choice for the player, get upgrades on the skulk now, or play base skulk and get your higher lifeform quicker. Truth be told though, this system would probably work best in addition to RFK :p, or with a higher average of alien extractors. At just 2 - 3 extractor income for aliens, this sytem will not work, as even that 1 p.res every time you respawn, for a skulk, would have a big impact.
No res for dead is a terrible mechanic, one that punishes worse players more than RFK ever could. Not to mention that people are grossly exaggerating the impact a simple +1 or even 0.5 p.res bonus for kills could have on gameplay Snowballing? Let's not exaggerate, if anything it makes pursuing the skill ceiling more rewarding, as players get better over time through practice, they will also find benefit in being the first lerk, or fade or onos on the field. This won't dramatically alter the RTS side of things, at best in your average game it would mean some lifeforms come out a minute earlier, where as for marines it means they get to purchase better weapons more often.
(In regards to marines, I DO think they should get rid of the endless weapon recycling if RFK was ever considered again)
<!--quoteo(post=1996020:date=Oct 24 2012, 12:10 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 24 2012, 12:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1996020"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lifeform explosions could easily be addressed be making alien upgrades cost p.res again, based on the platform. I.e skulk carapace would be 1 p.res while onos carapace could be for example 3. It creates a choice for the player, get upgrades on the skulk now, or play base skulk and get your higher lifeform quicker. Truth be told though, this system would probably work best in addition to RFK :p, or with a higher average of alien extractors. At just 2 - 3 extractor income for aliens, this sytem will not work, as even that 1 p.res every time you respawn, for a skulk, would have a big impact.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This system didn't work previously because it resulted in absolutely nobody upgrading their skulk. The combination of RFK and this cost system sounds intriguing, but you would need to address the snowballing aspect, real or not.
The fact of the matter is that if there is a skulk player with a huge amount of kills (i.e an amount large enough to significantly affect the arrival time of his higher lifeform), chances are his team is already going to have the upper hand.. Getting a fade one or two minutes earlier isn't going to alter the course of the game too much, he'll dominate as a fade, just like he would have 2 minutes later in a no RFK scenario.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This system didn't work previously because it resulted in absolutely nobody upgrading their skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The biggest issue with the system in the past was that there was no differentiation in upgrade costs based on lifeform choice, i.e an onos upgrade was the same price as an upgrade for the skulk, so investing that additional p.res in a skulk did not seem sensible. And this was at a time when aliens on average had 5 extractors, which allowed for a much faster p.res income.
If snowballing is really UWE's biggest fear, I'm sure there are mechanics out there that would do well in addressing such concerns. It would truly be a tragedy if RFK did not end up making a comeback in one form or another, it's simply a great mechanic that adds a reward and greater depth to gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1995040:date=Oct 22 2012, 07:49 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 22 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because this discussion hasn't happened a hundred times on here, or anything...
RFK snowballs good players into unstoppable killing machine and mudslides bad ones into active hindrances to their team. If you want resources, complete the objective of keeping your damn towers alive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This quote pretty much sums up this thread. There is no need for RFK, and if anything players will go after kills rather than actually playing the game.
RFK really just breaks the whole idea of what the teams are trying to achieve in the game as a team.
Please can this just be left for an alternative game mode like combat?
<!--quoteo(post=1996028:date=Oct 24 2012, 12:37 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Oct 24 2012, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1996028"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no need for RFK, and if anything players will go after kills rather than actually playing the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately its not always about what players should do, but about what they want to do.
<!--quoteo(post=1995974:date=Oct 24 2012, 12:52 AM:name=Jekt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jekt @ Oct 24 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So um, how does a minute early fade snowball the game again?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A player is given a fade; then when he loses the fade he can afford a fade again using p.res. That's the snowball effect.
Of course, it's not the same kind of snowball because it's not a "free win" on top of the player's win. It's to the detriment of the entire rest of the team, because they don't get things that t.res gets you, so there is a drawback.
However, the whole "use t.res directly for player upgrades" thing is not good imo. It goes against the idea that team res should be used for, you guessed it - things which affect the entire team. One good player having an onos or fade affects the entire team, sure. Every action, personal or commander, affects the entire team. However, it doesn't affect the entire team directly like getting carapace or celerity or silence does.
The recent popularity of onos drops is an indication of lack of balance in the game (skulks or lerks simply can't go against marines as time passes and they tech up, and aliens often end up losing the game before they can even afford fades with p.res let alone an onos), and in fact the entire system provides too much cushion for mistakes which contribute to some drawn-out end-games. Lost an onos? Here's an onos. Lost an exo? Here's an exo. I.e. your huge mistake is not really much of a mistake.
<!--quoteo(post=1996029:date=Oct 24 2012, 11:40 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 24 2012, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1996029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unfortunately its not always about what players should do, but about what they want to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That can be done in other ways, such as allowing players to buy their own weapons now.
The problem for aliens (imo) that is making them a little 'unexciting' to play is the inability to purchase their own upgrades. Instead you rely on a commander to choose a hive type and then research them.
Being able to purchase upgrades would be a great thing. I also feel that a lot of lifeform upgrades for aliens (specific to chambers) just do not work well enough in practical sense to compliment the game.
Cloak for example, requires you to be sitting completely still. Using it upfront is hard because you have to run up there first, and marines usually hear you so are aware of your presence. Even if you are cloaked, they are looking for you. It is more of a defensive upgrade which does not make sense, as really you want to have upgrades being used in an offensive manner.
Look at adrenaline and carapace, etc. All the popular upgrades are about being offensive, they help in times of action. Hence, they are popular.
Upgrades need to be better focused on this.
Cloak should take you off the minimap for marines for example.
-Res for Kill rewards slayers instead of team players. -No Res for Death punishes all players for dying, it does not specify slayers. -While you COULD abuse the system to get the most Res out of No Res for Death, by and large, nobody does it. -Res for Kill has potential snowballing problems. No Res for Death's impact is and has been minimal, in the grand scheme of the game.
I don't think we should even be discussing no res during death; my impression is that it's kind of a bug/oversight which will be fixed eventually. If someone actually intended it, I couldn't even begin to understand what the purpose would be. Discourage being dead? LOL...
<!--quoteo(post=1996035:date=Oct 24 2012, 11:55 AM:name=godrifle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (godrifle @ Oct 24 2012, 11:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1996035"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-While you COULD abuse the system to get the most Res out of No Res for Death, by and large, nobody does it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see how this can be abused? So you stay at base and out of the fight... that is one person less on the field defending your towers.
As marine this is a massive issue. As alien it can lead to res locks and lack of upgrades like leap, blink and stomp.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think we should even be discussing no res during death; my impression is that it's kind of a bug/oversight which will be fixed eventually. If someone actually intended it, I couldn't even begin to understand what the purpose would be. Discourage being dead? LOL...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was introduced to intend to break up the pres of aliens. Since aliens have nothing to spend pres res on in NS2, 5 fades use to come out at the same time pretty early in the game. It was suggested, tweeted by Charlie and put in the game. Certainly isn't a bug, certainly is an oversight.
Regardless of the differing views on RFK, it's good to know that no res while dead is globally disliked.
<!--quoteo(post=1996037:date=Oct 24 2012, 12:03 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Oct 24 2012, 12:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1996037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see how this can be abused? So you stay at base and out of the fight...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Being AFK or refusing to ever sacrifice yourself comes to mind. Biting res towers leaves you exposed pretty badly and probably gets you killed here and there, I could see some people skipping it to get more res. You can look at NS1 combat where people never want to be the first person leading the charge because you don't get XP for kills that you set up by dying first.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that is one person less on the field defending your towers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How is this situation any different disadvantage from the one that RFK causes if people end up prioritizing frags? Both methods have a chance of distracting people from doing the thing that the team needs, I can't see one being much better than the other in that aspect.
<!--quoteo(post=1996040:date=Oct 24 2012, 05:31 AM:name=Jekt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jekt @ Oct 24 2012, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1996040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was introduced to intend to break up the pres of aliens. Since aliens have nothing to spend pres res on in NS2, 5 fades use to come out at the same time pretty early in the game. It was suggested, tweeted by Charlie and put in the game. Certainly isn't a bug, certainly is an oversight.
Regardless of the differing views on RFK, it's good to know that no res while dead is globally disliked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really bad "solution" to that problem IMO. You can just coordinate when you go fade with your team, so fades will come out together anyway (if they want to). If they're too cheap without no-res-while-dead, the solution should've been to just increase their cost, or decrease marine speed/cost for "fade-countering" upgrades...
As an alternative to RFK, you could simply have higher score players (this means it's not going to be just kills) receive a modified p.res income. It's basically as if the commander is funnelling more resources to the players that do well, though it shouldn't be a dramatic change from players with lower scores, but still noticeable in the larger scope of things.
First I would like to point out that you'd be missing out on a potentially addictive gameplay element if resource rewarding is not implemented in some form or another. It's no surprise that the most popular games like WoW effectively use these kind of direct reward mechanics (exp points etc.), and they're slowly making their way into other game types as well: achievements, unlockable content like guns, graphics etc.
In the context of NS I think that this is especially needed for aliens, and one way it could work is to not reward kills, but the <b>damage</b> as some people have already suggested. No alleged snowballing, and it would reward team-oriented gameplay like res biting.
Regardless of the paradigm of "no player versus building", aliens are spending a lot of time attacking structures: res towers, phase gates, armories, power nodes etc. This mechanic would more or less remedy the tediousness of these tasks.
Also, I think this mechanic should be for aliens only. First of all, it makes more sense. The aliens able to consume resources from damaged objects, versus marines gaining res from shooting at things? Secondly, it would counter-balance the fact that marines can recycle and pick up dropped weapons.
There could also be some kind of visual indicator for the progress of "consumption", like in the NS1 combat mode.
<!--quoteo(post=1996034:date=Oct 24 2012, 11:53 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Oct 24 2012, 11:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1996034"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That can be done in other ways, such as allowing players to buy their own weapons now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> lol, exactly that is why RFK is needed from the FPS-player point of view. I can bu my own stuff but I can't do anything to reach my goal faster.
It is a basic, a fundamental, a self-evident part of FPS games. Even in DM-games I can learn how to reach weapons/armor etc faster than the others.
You can't reason your snowballing and 'unstoppable killing machine' fears with the combat mode. It's a completely different game mode where you wouldn't lose anything when you died (yes, that's snowballing). And since xmod, this mode disqualifies itself from taking part in any discussion.
Comments
Why even bother becoming good at this game when you're treated just like everyone else?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny because the guy with 2-14 was prob chewing on nodes, i guess that doesnt help the team only kills do.
This is a game that focuses on capturing RTs and map control, every fight gets you resources or loses you it. Your team, as a whole, is why you are winning or losing. You get more Resources by killing others, by defensing a point, by putting one down, by helping build that armory in base. Everything helps you get more resources. The fact that the game doesn't directly Stop the game and force everyone to turn around and make them applaud your awesomeness is one of the things that I like about the game.
It is about the team, not you, and winning is winning. If you want to win, you will get RTs, which will in turn get you and your team more resources. Frequently to do so will take killing the other team, sometimes it won't. Either way, you get Resources or lose them based on your skill and the skill of your team.
Although frequently, without it bieng built into the game, the *people* (yes they are people) might say how well you did if you actually did a good job, even if you didnt necesarily get the highest killcount. In fact, as a commander, you *should* applaud players for doing well..
(Quick Edit: not sure how i feel about the penalty for dying)
In almost all the games, Aliens are struggling to Lerk in the first 5 minutes, while Marines can afford shotguns and mines within the first 1 to 2 minutes. In NS2, Aliens can afford Lerks in the first 3 minutes, sometimes as early as the first minute (although everyone started with 25 res, instead of 20).
or simply having a small multiplier (like 1.25max) for each alien uniquely depeninding their purpose and evolutions.
e.g.
a skulk with celerity will will gain the multiplier for a few seconds each time a bullet misses you.
a skulk with cloacking will gain the multiplier when you are invisible in near proximity to marines
a lerk with adrenaline will gain the multiplier when marines are inside your spores
and so the player picks their play style and then the game gives them a bonus multiplier depending on how well they execute their chosen play style
I'm glad you mentioned the "only in competitive games" point, essentially torpedoing your entire argument. Fine. For something that would only be prevalent in competitive games, but stands the chance of alienating the vast majority of other players? That is a pretty conclusive reason not to implement it, wouldn't you say?
or simply having a small multiplier (like 1.25max) for each alien uniquely depeninding their purpose and evolutions.
e.g.
a skulk with celerity will will gain the multiplier for a few seconds each time a bullet misses you.
a skulk with cloacking will gain the multiplier when you are invisible in near proximity to marines
a lerk with adrenaline will gain the multiplier when marines are inside your spores
and so the player picks their play style and then the game gives them a bonus multiplier depending on how well they execute their chosen play style<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a terrible idea. You want to allow teams to boost up their res flow by standing around marines while invisible? How is that balanced? Res for commander-set objectives is even worse; what's to stop people from spamming objectives to move 5 feet?
The boost for using camouflage well is an easy kill. The boost for dodging bullets is avoiding death. The boost for marines in your spores is a disoriented and dying marine. The boost for following your commander's orders is that you help execute his plan. We already have rewards for doing actions right; it's that you do the action right.
On the topic of snowballing, xdragon has rightly pointed out good players don't exactly benefit from rfk post-lifeform and spend less pres on marine weapons overall anyway. The 'snowballing effect' is an example of a seemingly intuitive conclusion that is actually quite flawed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am. I don't think either commander should be able to purchase personal upgrades and hand out jetpacks/shotguns/fades/oni like candy in the late game. That's another snowballing effect due to win on top of win (t.res replacing the use of p.res, and then you can use p.res too if you die). The thread isn't about that though.
As far as people "not using p.res to buy weapons" that may be true on the marine side (except shotgun+jp which is an extremely cheap combo anyway that anyone can afford/rfk or not), but on the alien side I would bet anything that any semi-decent player goes fade ASAP, because the jump of survivability, mobility, and generally being able to kill and harass is immense compared to skulks or lerks - nevermind that fades (and oni, situationally) with blink are pretty much the only counter to jetpacks right now.
lol, nice.
<!--quoteo(post=1995743:date=Oct 23 2012, 01:09 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Oct 23 2012, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1995743"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see how some people can be so vocally against the RFK system and be totally okay with the terrible RFD (no res while dead) system that's in the game currently. The RFD system has so many more negative aspects than RFK would.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There was a thread that was titled something like "Who is for no pres while dead?" and i remember 2 or 3 pages of not a single person advocating for it?
But lifeforms explosion on the alien side is problematic.
So we need something to differentiate pres count for aliens.
It is true that RFK is superior to no res while dead.
So RFK it is.
Except if someone has a good idea to solve the lifeforms explosion in a more radical way (to the root).
No res for dead is a terrible mechanic, one that punishes worse players more than RFK ever could. Not to mention that people are grossly exaggerating the impact a simple +1 or even 0.5 p.res bonus for kills could have on gameplay Snowballing? Let's not exaggerate, if anything it makes pursuing the skill ceiling more rewarding, as players get better over time through practice, they will also find benefit in being the first lerk, or fade or onos on the field. This won't dramatically alter the RTS side of things, at best in your average game it would mean some lifeforms come out a minute earlier, where as for marines it means they get to purchase better weapons more often.
(In regards to marines, I DO think they should get rid of the endless weapon recycling if RFK was ever considered again)
This system didn't work previously because it resulted in absolutely nobody upgrading their skulk. The combination of RFK and this cost system sounds intriguing, but you would need to address the snowballing aspect, real or not.
Kill an important structure and get the % of damage you did to it back in resources!
Seems fair.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This system didn't work previously because it resulted in absolutely nobody upgrading their skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The biggest issue with the system in the past was that there was no differentiation in upgrade costs based on lifeform choice, i.e an onos upgrade was the same price as an upgrade for the skulk, so investing that additional p.res in a skulk did not seem sensible. And this was at a time when aliens on average had 5 extractors, which allowed for a much faster p.res income.
If snowballing is really UWE's biggest fear, I'm sure there are mechanics out there that would do well in addressing such concerns. It would truly be a tragedy if RFK did not end up making a comeback in one form or another, it's simply a great mechanic that adds a reward and greater depth to gameplay.
RFK snowballs good players into unstoppable killing machine and mudslides bad ones into active hindrances to their team. If you want resources, complete the objective of keeping your damn towers alive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This quote pretty much sums up this thread. There is no need for RFK, and if anything players will go after kills rather than actually playing the game.
RFK really just breaks the whole idea of what the teams are trying to achieve in the game as a team.
Please can this just be left for an alternative game mode like combat?
Unfortunately its not always about what players should do, but about what they want to do.
A player is given a fade; then when he loses the fade he can afford a fade again using p.res. That's the snowball effect.
Of course, it's not the same kind of snowball because it's not a "free win" on top of the player's win. It's to the detriment of the entire rest of the team, because they don't get things that t.res gets you, so there is a drawback.
However, the whole "use t.res directly for player upgrades" thing is not good imo. It goes against the idea that team res should be used for, you guessed it - things which affect the entire team. One good player having an onos or fade affects the entire team, sure. Every action, personal or commander, affects the entire team. However, it doesn't affect the entire team directly like getting carapace or celerity or silence does.
The recent popularity of onos drops is an indication of lack of balance in the game (skulks or lerks simply can't go against marines as time passes and they tech up, and aliens often end up losing the game before they can even afford fades with p.res let alone an onos), and in fact the entire system provides too much cushion for mistakes which contribute to some drawn-out end-games. Lost an onos? Here's an onos. Lost an exo? Here's an exo. I.e. your huge mistake is not really much of a mistake.
That can be done in other ways, such as allowing players to buy their own weapons now.
The problem for aliens (imo) that is making them a little 'unexciting' to play is the inability to purchase their own upgrades. Instead you rely on a commander to choose a hive type and then research them.
Being able to purchase upgrades would be a great thing. I also feel that a lot of lifeform upgrades for aliens (specific to chambers) just do not work well enough in practical sense to compliment the game.
Cloak for example, requires you to be sitting completely still. Using it upfront is hard because you have to run up there first, and marines usually hear you so are aware of your presence. Even if you are cloaked, they are looking for you. It is more of a defensive upgrade which does not make sense, as really you want to have upgrades being used in an offensive manner.
Look at adrenaline and carapace, etc. All the popular upgrades are about being offensive, they help in times of action. Hence, they are popular.
Upgrades need to be better focused on this.
Cloak should take you off the minimap for marines for example.
-Res for Kill rewards slayers instead of team players.
-No Res for Death punishes all players for dying, it does not specify slayers.
-While you COULD abuse the system to get the most Res out of No Res for Death, by and large, nobody does it.
-Res for Kill has potential snowballing problems. No Res for Death's impact is and has been minimal, in the grand scheme of the game.
I don't see how this can be abused? So you stay at base and out of the fight... that is one person less on the field defending your towers.
As marine this is a massive issue. As alien it can lead to res locks and lack of upgrades like leap, blink and stomp.
It was introduced to intend to break up the pres of aliens. Since aliens have nothing to spend pres res on in NS2, 5 fades use to come out at the same time pretty early in the game. It was suggested, tweeted by Charlie and put in the game. Certainly isn't a bug, certainly is an oversight.
Regardless of the differing views on RFK, it's good to know that no res while dead is globally disliked.
Being AFK or refusing to ever sacrifice yourself comes to mind. Biting res towers leaves you exposed pretty badly and probably gets you killed here and there, I could see some people skipping it to get more res. You can look at NS1 combat where people never want to be the first person leading the charge because you don't get XP for kills that you set up by dying first.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that is one person less on the field defending your towers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is this situation any different disadvantage from the one that RFK causes if people end up prioritizing frags? Both methods have a chance of distracting people from doing the thing that the team needs, I can't see one being much better than the other in that aspect.
Regardless of the differing views on RFK, it's good to know that no res while dead is globally disliked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really bad "solution" to that problem IMO. You can just coordinate when you go fade with your team, so fades will come out together anyway (if they want to). If they're too cheap without no-res-while-dead, the solution should've been to just increase their cost, or decrease marine speed/cost for "fade-countering" upgrades...
A P.Res score bonus, as you will.
In the context of NS I think that this is especially needed for aliens, and one way it could work is to not reward kills, but the <b>damage</b> as some people have already suggested. No alleged snowballing, and it would reward team-oriented gameplay like res biting.
Regardless of the paradigm of "no player versus building", aliens are spending a lot of time attacking structures: res towers, phase gates, armories, power nodes etc. This mechanic would more or less remedy the tediousness of these tasks.
Also, I think this mechanic should be for aliens only. First of all, it makes more sense. The aliens able to consume resources from damaged objects, versus marines gaining res from shooting at things? Secondly, it would counter-balance the fact that marines can recycle and pick up dropped weapons.
There could also be some kind of visual indicator for the progress of "consumption", like in the NS1 combat mode.
lol, exactly that is why RFK is needed from the FPS-player point of view. I can bu my own stuff but I can't do anything to reach my goal faster.
It is a basic, a fundamental, a self-evident part of FPS games. Even in DM-games I can learn how to reach weapons/armor etc faster than the others.
You can't reason your snowballing and 'unstoppable killing machine' fears with the combat mode. It's a completely different game mode where you wouldn't lose anything when you died (yes, that's snowballing). And since xmod, this mode disqualifies itself from taking part in any discussion.