I like vision obstruction. Things that obstruct your vision have to be aimed and connect with the player (i.e., skill). Most of those vision blurring effects come from creatures that can't kill you by themselves without difficulty (gorges), meaning it requires teamwork to capitalize on.
Vision blurring feels good and adds another tactic to the game. I say keep it, always.
<!--quoteo(post=1994150:date=Oct 20 2012, 11:08 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 20 2012, 11:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, today I can't get over how crappy NS1 looks. It looks horrible by today's standards. I know underneath it was probably a good game, solid, responsive (goldsrc engine after all), fun, etc., but the reality is that even I who started playing games in the 90's, wouldn't bother with NS1, just because of the audio, visuals, gui, etc.
And maybe I wasn't clear enough above - I actually ENJOY these visual-impairing effects. I enjoy them being done to me as marine, and I enjoy doing them as alien/alien com. It's part of the "fun" I get from this game. If it was removed and/or toned down that fun that I get would be gone. Simple as that. Those visual effects gone - that would be a "disaster" for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Part of what I enjoy about this game is the Hunter and Hunted/Alien vibe you get from its dark visuals and design. If someone wants to make immersion a part of their experience (and if you've played a game in the last couple of years, this is what developers aim for constantly) they have every right to do so. You played Natural Selection 1 when it came out. Some people didn't, and they're not gonna rub vaseline on their eyes to cope with outdated visuals, sound, and animations, even if somehow the gameplay is "better".
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like vision obstruction. Things that obstruct your vision have to be aimed and connect with the player (i.e., skill). Most of those vision blurring effects come from creatures that can't kill you by themselves without difficulty (gorges), meaning it requires teamwork to capitalize on.
Vision blurring feels good and adds another tactic to the game. I say keep it, always.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's the same tactic, just cheapened.
The only vision obstructing ability I posted that requires any aim at all was gorge spit, so I'll assume that's what your point is based on. Without the spit on the marine screen, it's still perfectly possible to hit a gorge spit and tank some bullets for your skulk teammates who are incoming for a timely ambush. The blinding of the marine doesn't add anything to this capitalisation, it just frustrates the marine and rewards the aliens for potentially uncoordinated play.
No, but on a serious note and as already stated in this thread; Marines use ranged weapons and rely heavily on their vision. Aliens have to get in close and try to stay out of sight as much as possible. It's asymetric and create two very different kinds of gameplay. On the other hand, it's annoying having your screen cluttered in fights I guess...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember when aliens didnt need any fancy vision blocking crap to go toe to toe with marines, but oh wait back then they didnt suck and drive like school buses to boot.
I also dislike the amount of vision obscuring things in NS2. It's just not fun when you can't see what you are fighting against, it feels cheap and unfair.
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->I'm not a fan of most of the vision obscuring either. Though considering their response early on about concerns of obscuring was to slather on some more, I'm just hoping for a widely server supported mod that removes most of this crap.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1994130:date=Oct 20 2012, 08:06 AM:name=Fappuchino)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fappuchino @ Oct 20 2012, 08:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't believe someone started this thread?! They're marines, with guns, that they have to POINT and SHOOT. Why would alien players not love ways to impair this ability they have? Why would you not want that piece of game mechanic? For Pete's sake, in the movies man is mostly easy prey because of their inferior sight/auditory senses (Except for good ol' Arnold).
Just look at Left 4 Dead and the crazy effects that constantly impair you. It's great. *And immersing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1994044:date=Oct 20 2012, 01:41 AM:name=Namm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namm @ Oct 20 2012, 01:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, but on a serious note and as already stated in this thread; Marines use ranged weapons and rely heavily on their vision. Aliens have to get in close and try to stay out of sight as much as possible. It's asymetric and create two very different kinds of gameplay. On the other hand, it's annoying having your screen cluttered in fights I guess...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh god, you're the only one who makes any sense around here. Why does everything that makes a game more competitively "fair" have to be so gosh dark BORING. Jesus, have a game where not being able to see is a genuine tactic through darkness or alien goo. It all has to be BHOP or hammering the space button while the game degenerates into the same repititious tap dancing fest (but it's okay because skillz were involved!) /rant
<!--quoteo(post=1994190:date=Oct 20 2012, 01:21 PM:name=Jekt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jekt @ Oct 20 2012, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's the same tactic, just cheapened.
The only vision obstructing ability I posted that requires any aim at all was gorge spit, so I'll assume that's what your point is based on. Without the spit on the marine screen, it's still perfectly possible to hit a gorge spit and tank some bullets for your skulk teammates who are incoming for a timely ambush. The blinding of the marine doesn't add anything to this capitalisation, it just frustrates the marine and rewards the aliens for potentially uncoordinated play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorge spit may be the only vision obscuring ability that requires aim, but the others require something far more difficult to achieve than aim : forethought. You have to actually plan ahead to put down a shade and upgrade it with the intent that it's going to block marine vision. You also have to be aware that a cyst is mature and capable of rupturing AND time it correctly in order to use rupture effectively. And even then ive heard it only lasts a second or so.
You're seriously downplaying the skill required to pull off a few of these vision obscuring abilities. Even gorge spit is one of the most difficult projectiles to land in the entire game.
<!--quoteo(post=1994164:date=Oct 20 2012, 12:41 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 20 2012, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The majority of the forums right now is NS1 enthusiasts waiting and clamoring for a HD remake, with a minority who discovered this game through totalbiscuit or other publications over the last few years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What's funny is two years the forums were filled to the brim with fanboys that embraced every dev decision to dumb the game down and swarmed anyone that said otherwise. Most people that disagreed with this mentality didn't waste their time speaking to a wall or just got banned for trying to fight it (even constructively). Now that the game is more playable and popular, rational people are starting to stick their heads in.
You listed audio as the first reason you wouldn't play ns1, yet sounds from it are still in ns2.
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Spending a large amount of time with the map overlay open to be effective is not a good feature for an FPS game. Please come up with an alternative to good map awareness. It will make the game more friendly for pubs and new players.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1994236:date=Oct 20 2012, 03:34 PM:name=Pyromaniac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pyromaniac @ Oct 20 2012, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You listed audio as the first reason you wouldn't play ns1, yet sounds from it are still in ns2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the voice-overs actually work surprisingly well in 2012. I was surprised at how many of the sounds are directly copied, seemingly without re-recording. However, the AR sounds in particular from ns1 (at least on the videos I watched) are... unpleasant, to say the least.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
edited October 2012
Personally, I think it takes a lot more skill to make shots with obscured vision than with a clear-view-fullbright that tends to be favored by 'competitive' players. As in, it relies on skills beyond the basic mechanical twitch reflex to anticipate and predict movement. It also places a higher priority on squad tactics (in the case of spit and BB) and positioning rather than running around like a retarded Rambo and expecting 'skill' to keep you alive; with 'skill' defined purely as the ability to keep the crosshairs on a moving target and hold down the fire button.
In the latter case, there already is a game available for that 'gamer' segment. It's called Shootmania. It's stripped down to little more than a reaction game with super-fast running and weapons roughly based off of the Q3A railgun arena mode. I don't play it because it's FILLED with that kind of 'competitive' player. They're welcome to it, and to STAY there.
Personally, I <i>like</i> having the immersion even if it means the screen gets somewhat blocked. Kharaa frankly can't go toe-to-toe at this point, as they could in NS1. The moronic crack-bouncing has been carried across. High power and accuracy weapons with range are the Marines' strong point. The visual effects mitigate that somewhat, in the few cases when they are actually used.
Short version, people attributing visual impairment to being 'low skill' or 'not competitive' appear to rely purely on twitch ability to succeed, and none of the OTHER factors that should combine in an actual competitive arena. And in the process paint themselves very poorly when their one crutch can't serve them in a given game, deriding it as 'not competitive', when it is their own inability to adapt that puts them at the real disadvantage.
Shorter version? Sounds like a whole lot of sore-loser syndrome, to me.
When we can finally hook computers up to people and produce physical sensations, I hope you will all argue for the inclusion of pain when getting shot/bitten for the sake of immersion.
<!--quoteo(post=1994309:date=Oct 20 2012, 09:34 PM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Oct 20 2012, 09:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When we can finally hook computers up to people and produce physical sensations, I hope you will all argue for the inclusion of pain when getting shot/bitten for the sake of immersion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. (And when this happens, they need to bring back Onos devour.)
On a serious note, I think the smokey effects are tastefully done, though as I said earlier, the goo effects could probably be toned down somewhat. Maybe just a translucent green goop instead of the current opaque stuff.
<!--quoteo(post=1994309:date=Oct 20 2012, 05:34 PM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Oct 20 2012, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When we can finally hook computers up to people and produce physical sensations, I hope you will all argue for the inclusion of pain when getting shot/bitten for the sake of immersion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, I never thought I would find someone who has no freakin clue about what game immersion means.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
the only thing that bothers me is when i'm an aliens EVERYTHING has an orange outline, i dont mind seeing it on parasited marines and buildings through walls - but once im looking at them directly i don't need an outline.
makes me feel like im playing a cell shaded game (which i don't like)
It is fine. Obscuring vision rarely happens. Gorge would have bile you, but doesn't do damage compared to his spit. So, it won't kill you and he uses a lot of energy from Bile. Lerks do it to escape. You have to see it from Aliens point of you. We don't have that much range at all compared to marines. Marines is pretty much the range class and aliens are melee class(exclude lerks, but they are not good atm and die quickly) So, having some obscuring vision helps the alien melee balance a bit from all your range abilities. A gorge will bile you just so he can escape they don't do it to kill you.
<!--quoteo(post=1994297:date=Oct 21 2012, 11:34 AM:name=Talesin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talesin @ Oct 21 2012, 11:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I think it takes a lot more skill to make shots with obscured vision than with a clear-view-fullbright that tends to be favored by 'competitive' players. As in, it relies on skills beyond the basic mechanical twitch reflex to anticipate and predict movement. It also places a higher priority on squad tactics (in the case of spit and BB) and positioning rather than running around like a retarded Rambo and expecting 'skill' to keep you alive; with 'skill' defined purely as the ability to keep the crosshairs on a moving target and hold down the fire button.
In the latter case, there already is a game available for that 'gamer' segment. It's called Shootmania. It's stripped down to little more than a reaction game with super-fast running and weapons roughly based off of the Q3A railgun arena mode. I don't play it because it's FILLED with that kind of 'competitive' player. They're welcome to it, and to STAY there.
Personally, I <i>like</i> having the immersion even if it means the screen gets somewhat blocked. Kharaa frankly can't go toe-to-toe at this point, as they could in NS1. The moronic crack-bouncing has been carried across. High power and accuracy weapons with range are the Marines' strong point. The visual effects mitigate that somewhat, in the few cases when they are actually used.
Short version, people attributing visual impairment to being 'low skill' or 'not competitive' appear to rely purely on twitch ability to succeed, and none of the OTHER factors that should combine in an actual competitive arena. And in the process paint themselves very poorly when their one crutch can't serve them in a given game, deriding it as 'not competitive', when it is their own inability to adapt that puts them at the real disadvantage.
Shorter version? Sounds like a whole lot of sore-loser syndrome, to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Finally, a well written post from the pro-visual blocking side - I would agree that the arguement makes sense but only in terms of spit and i don't think this ability is the center of contention here. It is only one in an arsenal of visual, audio, movement blocking abilities aliens have, one of the mildest at that. You're not being very fair by extrapolating solely from spit (the best example, not the median) that anyone who complains is a retarded rambo who only relies on twitch... =/.
Its silly to expect your team-mates to be able to see through spores, cyst ruptures, jetpack smoke, flamethrower smoke, explosions, biles, vortexes etc. (notice how many there are besides spit) any better than you can. These are AOE effects. What additional "skill" counters this? When you have an absence of information, can you really say that it takes more <b>skill</b> to take a frag, or is it actually more <b>luck</b>? Do you think its good design to require so called <b>"additional skill"</b> in order to overcome <b>friendly applied vision blocking</b> such as jetpack/flame smoke? Are these friendly applied effects really balance mechanisms or badly implemented 'immersion' tools?
It's fine that people enjoy the immersion. I don't think anyone here on the anti vision blocking side is arguing simply to take away your enjoyment. While you all demand that your immersive experience be recognised, also recognise that others don't enjoy such (or rather enjoy the player vs player aspect more than immersion).
<i>imo, someone should make a mod where all the visual <strike>blocking</strike> immersion effects are amplified, more frequent, and more numerous. I would honestly love to see our immersion masochists get more enjoyment for their money :3.</i>
I don't think enjoying these effects being in the game is about immersion. Immersion and realism can be extremely bad if taken to extremes. There's a reason why people play games instead of do things in real life (except for the obvious feature of not actually dying in games, and impossible-to-achieve scenarios in real life like sci-fi), and that reason is fun.
The visual and aural-impairment abilities/features of the game are fun, for me at least. I'd miss them if they were removed or even toned down. Could the game still be fun with them gone? Sure, but probably not as much as before. Could it be fun with them amplified? I actually think some of them could use a slight buff XD (e.g. cyst rupture which is pretty weak imo). The rest seem fine.
As far as jetpack smoke and flamethrowers, I've hardly had actual problems with those effects being overwhelming. JP smoke disappears so quickly, and flamethrowers by their nature are meant to, you know, draw a flame when you shoot them...
Edit: Except that flashlight fog. The flashlight fog is cool, but the overlay is too much. I still play with atmo on, but I just wish it would be gone. I don't mind fog from the other team, especially when it costs them res, but my own team blinding me through something that's actually supposed to help illuminate is not desirable.
<!--quoteo(post=1994420:date=Oct 21 2012, 04:19 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 21 2012, 04:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think enjoying these effects being in the game is about immersion. Immersion and realism can be extremely bad if taken to extremes. There's a reason why people play games instead of do things in real life (except for the obvious feature of not actually dying in games, and impossible-to-achieve scenarios in real life like sci-fi), and that reason is fun.
The visual and aural-impairment abilities/features of the game are fun, for me at least. I'd miss them if they were removed or even toned down. Could the game still be fun with them gone? Sure, but probably not as much as before. Could it be fun with them amplified? I actually think some of them could use a slight buff XD (e.g. cyst rupture which is pretty weak imo). The rest seem fine.
As far as jetpack smoke and flamethrowers, I've hardly had actual problems with those effects being overwhelming. JP smoke disappears so quickly, and flamethrowers by their nature are meant to, you know, draw a flame when you shoot them...
Edit: Except that flashlight fog. The flashlight fog is cool, but the overlay is too much. I still play with atmo on, but I just wish it would be gone. I don't mind fog from the other team, especially when it costs them res, but my own team blinding me through something that's actually supposed to help illuminate is not desirable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it is immersion. For example, I think it's safe to assume in a scenario where bunny hopping could get introduced for whatever reason, certain players would feel that something that is essentially a dog (Skulk) and moves like one, looks really off putting when it seems like it's on a bouncing on a pogo stick swaying drunkenly side to side. Something that is forgivable on the Half Life 1 engine but no longer on our HD super machines.
I mean look at the game Star Citizen, it has ridiculous visuals because the developers know that's what gets you into a game.
I'm mainly upset at how no one around here seems to worry about atmosphere, or scenarios that just make sense in a sci-fi game. Being blinded and consequently impaired makes PERFECT sense from a realism and gameplay point of view. To remove these, just so we can hackneyed twitch based snooze battles IMO would be ultimately a bad decision, taking away from the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1994444:date=Oct 22 2012, 12:16 AM:name=Fappuchino)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fappuchino @ Oct 22 2012, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it is immersion. For example, I think it's safe to assume in a scenario where bunny hopping could get introduced for whatever reason, certain players would feel that something that is essentially a dog (Skulk) and moves like one, looks really off putting when it seems like it's on a bouncing on a pogo stick swaying drunkenly side to side. Something that is forgivable on the Half Life 1 engine but no longer on our HD super machines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How do you find the current walljump then? And why are you not arguing vehemently for its removal if this is the stance you take?
<!--quoteo(post=1994445:date=Oct 21 2012, 06:20 AM:name=Jekt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jekt @ Oct 21 2012, 06:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994445"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a team based multiplayer RTS FPS hybrid. Not a single player driven by atmospherics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You haven't actually stated anything in particular here. This is a multiplayer game, so the developers deserve a whack on the head if they add or maintain anything that connects you better to the game?
i hate the onscreen strawberry jam, the obscuring of my vision and audio when low on health.
Like in ns1, i should be able to know how many bites i've taken, how close to death i am without gimmicky pap that impairs my ability to survive when i'm on my last legs. It's a terrible bloody trend from ADHD shooters from the consoles, and i would think better of UWE if they rethought it in favour of better audible feedback when i've been bitten.
As for immersion, that should be something driven by gameplay, not visual gimmicks or forced disabilities on players.
<!--quoteo(post=1994031:date=Oct 19 2012, 11:23 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Oct 19 2012, 11:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994031"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wayyyyyyyyy to much vision obscuring. I wouldn't care if there was an option to turn it off but there isn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> .... what would be the point of having them in the game if you could deactivate them? The whole point is obscuring marines' vision because they rely on it to shoot accurately think of it as smoke/flash grenades in most FPS or wolfenstein:enemy territory or the lights in splinter cell multiplayer, do you cry about them too?
most people like those effects not because "oooh pretty/immersive!" but because they actually have an impact on gameplay and give the aliens an advantage. the only gripe most people will have is the framerate issue because the effects are serious fps hogs. maybe they'll optimize it till the release
visual/audio feedback is also a crucial part of gameplay. when playing battlefield bad company 2, only a few people understood how good the smoke grenades were, because that vision blocking was critical at times. same for when a grenade landed next to you, you'd hear an audible tonk-tonk that gave you time to bolt for whatever direction you think there was cover. you didn't hear that sound if the sound was muted, because it landed outside the house you're in or you were injured. some people just think those are bothersome "immersive" eye-candy that has no place in their imagined twitch-based shooter, but they are part of gameplay
Comments
Vision blurring feels good and adds another tactic to the game. I say keep it, always.
And maybe I wasn't clear enough above - I actually ENJOY these visual-impairing effects. I enjoy them being done to me as marine, and I enjoy doing them as alien/alien com. It's part of the "fun" I get from this game. If it was removed and/or toned down that fun that I get would be gone. Simple as that. Those visual effects gone - that would be a "disaster" for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*I need to learn to be nice* --Comprox
Part of what I enjoy about this game is the Hunter and Hunted/Alien vibe you get from its dark visuals and design. If someone wants to make immersion a part of their experience (and if you've played a game in the last couple of years, this is what developers aim for constantly) they have every right to do so. You played Natural Selection 1 when it came out. Some people didn't, and they're not gonna rub vaseline on their eyes to cope with outdated visuals, sound, and animations, even if somehow the gameplay is "better".
Vision blurring feels good and adds another tactic to the game. I say keep it, always.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's the same tactic, just cheapened.
The only vision obstructing ability I posted that requires any aim at all was gorge spit, so I'll assume that's what your point is based on. Without the spit on the marine screen, it's still perfectly possible to hit a gorge spit and tank some bullets for your skulk teammates who are incoming for a timely ambush. The blinding of the marine doesn't add anything to this capitalisation, it just frustrates the marine and rewards the aliens for potentially uncoordinated play.
<img src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_rbjgqdXMI-Q/R9dK9-3IxpI/AAAAAAAAAg4/kF_MCKg01hs/s320/kleenex.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
No, but on a serious note and as already stated in this thread; Marines use ranged weapons and rely heavily on their vision. Aliens have to get in close and try to stay out of sight as much as possible. It's asymetric and create two very different kinds of gameplay. On the other hand, it's annoying having your screen cluttered in fights I guess...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember when aliens didnt need any fancy vision blocking crap to go toe to toe with marines, but oh wait back then they didnt suck and drive like school buses to boot.
It's just not fun when you can't see what you are fighting against, it feels cheap and unfair.
Just look at Left 4 Dead and the crazy effects that constantly impair you. It's great. *And immersing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1994044:date=Oct 20 2012, 01:41 AM:name=Namm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namm @ Oct 20 2012, 01:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, but on a serious note and as already stated in this thread; Marines use ranged weapons and rely heavily on their vision. Aliens have to get in close and try to stay out of sight as much as possible. It's asymetric and create two very different kinds of gameplay. On the other hand, it's annoying having your screen cluttered in fights I guess...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh god, you're the only one who makes any sense around here. Why does everything that makes a game more competitively "fair" have to be so gosh dark BORING. Jesus, have a game where not being able to see is a genuine tactic through darkness or alien goo. It all has to be BHOP or hammering the space button while the game degenerates into the same repititious tap dancing fest (but it's okay because skillz were involved!)
/rant
The only vision obstructing ability I posted that requires any aim at all was gorge spit, so I'll assume that's what your point is based on. Without the spit on the marine screen, it's still perfectly possible to hit a gorge spit and tank some bullets for your skulk teammates who are incoming for a timely ambush. The blinding of the marine doesn't add anything to this capitalisation, it just frustrates the marine and rewards the aliens for potentially uncoordinated play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorge spit may be the only vision obscuring ability that requires aim, but the others require something far more difficult to achieve than aim : forethought. You have to actually plan ahead to put down a shade and upgrade it with the intent that it's going to block marine vision. You also have to be aware that a cyst is mature and capable of rupturing AND time it correctly in order to use rupture effectively. And even then ive heard it only lasts a second or so.
You're seriously downplaying the skill required to pull off a few of these vision obscuring abilities. Even gorge spit is one of the most difficult projectiles to land in the entire game.
What's funny is two years the forums were filled to the brim with fanboys that embraced every dev decision to dumb the game down and swarmed anyone that said otherwise. Most people that disagreed with this mentality didn't waste their time speaking to a wall or just got banned for trying to fight it (even constructively). Now that the game is more playable and popular, rational people are starting to stick their heads in.
You listed audio as the first reason you wouldn't play ns1, yet sounds from it are still in ns2.
Yes, the voice-overs actually work surprisingly well in 2012. I was surprised at how many of the sounds are directly copied, seemingly without re-recording. However, the AR sounds in particular from ns1 (at least on the videos I watched) are... unpleasant, to say the least.
As in, it relies on skills beyond the basic mechanical twitch reflex to anticipate and predict movement. It also places a higher priority on squad tactics (in the case of spit and BB) and positioning rather than running around like a retarded Rambo and expecting 'skill' to keep you alive; with 'skill' defined purely as the ability to keep the crosshairs on a moving target and hold down the fire button.
In the latter case, there already is a game available for that 'gamer' segment. It's called Shootmania. It's stripped down to little more than a reaction game with super-fast running and weapons roughly based off of the Q3A railgun arena mode. I don't play it because it's FILLED with that kind of 'competitive' player. They're welcome to it, and to STAY there.
Personally, I <i>like</i> having the immersion even if it means the screen gets somewhat blocked. Kharaa frankly can't go toe-to-toe at this point, as they could in NS1. The moronic crack-bouncing has been carried across. High power and accuracy weapons with range are the Marines' strong point. The visual effects mitigate that somewhat, in the few cases when they are actually used.
Short version, people attributing visual impairment to being 'low skill' or 'not competitive' appear to rely purely on twitch ability to succeed, and none of the OTHER factors that should combine in an actual competitive arena. And in the process paint themselves very poorly when their one crutch can't serve them in a given game, deriding it as 'not competitive', when it is their own inability to adapt that puts them at the real disadvantage.
Shorter version? Sounds like a whole lot of sore-loser syndrome, to me.
This. (And when this happens, they need to bring back Onos devour.)
On a serious note, I think the smokey effects are tastefully done, though as I said earlier, the goo effects could probably be toned down somewhat.
Maybe just a translucent green goop instead of the current opaque stuff.
Wow, I never thought I would find someone who has no freakin clue about what game immersion means.
Ironically enough, the device already exists:
<a href="http://tngames.com/products" target="_blank">http://tngames.com/products</a>
So... shall we patch this in NS2?
makes me feel like im playing a cell shaded game (which i don't like)
As in, it relies on skills beyond the basic mechanical twitch reflex to anticipate and predict movement. It also places a higher priority on squad tactics (in the case of spit and BB) and positioning rather than running around like a retarded Rambo and expecting 'skill' to keep you alive; with 'skill' defined purely as the ability to keep the crosshairs on a moving target and hold down the fire button.
In the latter case, there already is a game available for that 'gamer' segment. It's called Shootmania. It's stripped down to little more than a reaction game with super-fast running and weapons roughly based off of the Q3A railgun arena mode. I don't play it because it's FILLED with that kind of 'competitive' player. They're welcome to it, and to STAY there.
Personally, I <i>like</i> having the immersion even if it means the screen gets somewhat blocked. Kharaa frankly can't go toe-to-toe at this point, as they could in NS1. The moronic crack-bouncing has been carried across. High power and accuracy weapons with range are the Marines' strong point. The visual effects mitigate that somewhat, in the few cases when they are actually used.
Short version, people attributing visual impairment to being 'low skill' or 'not competitive' appear to rely purely on twitch ability to succeed, and none of the OTHER factors that should combine in an actual competitive arena. And in the process paint themselves very poorly when their one crutch can't serve them in a given game, deriding it as 'not competitive', when it is their own inability to adapt that puts them at the real disadvantage.
Shorter version? Sounds like a whole lot of sore-loser syndrome, to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Finally, a well written post from the pro-visual blocking side - I would agree that the arguement makes sense but only in terms of spit and i don't think this ability is the center of contention here. It is only one in an arsenal of visual, audio, movement blocking abilities aliens have, one of the mildest at that. You're not being very fair by extrapolating solely from spit (the best example, not the median) that anyone who complains is a retarded rambo who only relies on twitch... =/.
Its silly to expect your team-mates to be able to see through spores, cyst ruptures, jetpack smoke, flamethrower smoke, explosions, biles, vortexes etc. (notice how many there are besides spit) any better than you can. These are AOE effects. What additional "skill" counters this? When you have an absence of information, can you really say that it takes more <b>skill</b> to take a frag, or is it actually more <b>luck</b>? Do you think its good design to require so called <b>"additional skill"</b> in order to overcome <b>friendly applied vision blocking</b> such as jetpack/flame smoke? Are these friendly applied effects really balance mechanisms or badly implemented 'immersion' tools?
It's fine that people enjoy the immersion. I don't think anyone here on the anti vision blocking side is arguing simply to take away your enjoyment. While you all demand that your immersive experience be recognised, also recognise that others don't enjoy such (or rather enjoy the player vs player aspect more than immersion).
<i>imo, someone should make a mod where all the visual <strike>blocking</strike> immersion effects are amplified, more frequent, and more numerous. I would honestly love to see our immersion masochists get more enjoyment for their money :3.</i>
The visual and aural-impairment abilities/features of the game are fun, for me at least. I'd miss them if they were removed or even toned down. Could the game still be fun with them gone? Sure, but probably not as much as before. Could it be fun with them amplified? I actually think some of them could use a slight buff XD (e.g. cyst rupture which is pretty weak imo). The rest seem fine.
As far as jetpack smoke and flamethrowers, I've hardly had actual problems with those effects being overwhelming. JP smoke disappears so quickly, and flamethrowers by their nature are meant to, you know, draw a flame when you shoot them...
Edit: Except that flashlight fog. The flashlight fog is cool, but the overlay is too much. I still play with atmo on, but I just wish it would be gone. I don't mind fog from the other team, especially when it costs them res, but my own team blinding me through something that's actually supposed to help illuminate is not desirable.
The visual and aural-impairment abilities/features of the game are fun, for me at least. I'd miss them if they were removed or even toned down. Could the game still be fun with them gone? Sure, but probably not as much as before. Could it be fun with them amplified? I actually think some of them could use a slight buff XD (e.g. cyst rupture which is pretty weak imo). The rest seem fine.
As far as jetpack smoke and flamethrowers, I've hardly had actual problems with those effects being overwhelming. JP smoke disappears so quickly, and flamethrowers by their nature are meant to, you know, draw a flame when you shoot them...
Edit: Except that flashlight fog. The flashlight fog is cool, but the overlay is too much. I still play with atmo on, but I just wish it would be gone. I don't mind fog from the other team, especially when it costs them res, but my own team blinding me through something that's actually supposed to help illuminate is not desirable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it is immersion. For example, I think it's safe to assume in a scenario where bunny hopping could get introduced for whatever reason, certain players would feel that something that is essentially a dog (Skulk) and moves like one, looks really off putting when it seems like it's on a bouncing on a pogo stick swaying drunkenly side to side. Something that is forgivable on the Half Life 1 engine but no longer on our HD super machines.
I mean look at the game Star Citizen, it has ridiculous visuals because the developers know that's what gets you into a game.
I'm mainly upset at how no one around here seems to worry about atmosphere, or scenarios that just make sense in a sci-fi game. Being blinded and consequently impaired makes PERFECT sense from a realism and gameplay point of view. To remove these, just so we can hackneyed twitch based snooze battles IMO would be ultimately a bad decision, taking away from the game.
How do you find the current walljump then? And why are you not arguing vehemently for its removal if this is the stance you take?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... hackneyed twitch based snooze battles...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxymoron" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxymoron</a>
You haven't actually stated anything in particular here. This is a multiplayer game, so the developers deserve a whack on the head if they add or maintain anything that connects you better to the game?
Like in ns1, i should be able to know how many bites i've taken, how close to death i am without gimmicky pap that impairs my ability to survive when i'm on my last legs. It's a terrible bloody trend from ADHD shooters from the consoles, and i would think better of UWE if they rethought it in favour of better audible feedback when i've been bitten.
As for immersion, that should be something driven by gameplay, not visual gimmicks or forced disabilities on players.
.... what would be the point of having them in the game if you could deactivate them? The whole point is obscuring marines' vision because they rely on it to shoot accurately
think of it as smoke/flash grenades in most FPS or wolfenstein:enemy territory or the lights in splinter cell multiplayer, do you cry about them too?
most people like those effects not because "oooh pretty/immersive!" but because they actually have an impact on gameplay and give the aliens an advantage. the only gripe most people will have is the framerate issue because the effects are serious fps hogs. maybe they'll optimize it till the release
visual/audio feedback is also a crucial part of gameplay. when playing battlefield bad company 2, only a few people understood how good the smoke grenades were, because that vision blocking was critical at times. same for when a grenade landed next to you, you'd hear an audible tonk-tonk that gave you time to bolt for whatever direction you think there was cover. you didn't hear that sound if the sound was muted, because it landed outside the house you're in or you were injured. some people just think those are bothersome "immersive" eye-candy that has no place in their imagined twitch-based shooter, but they are part of gameplay