<!--quoteo(post=1994022:date=Oct 20 2012, 07:46 AM:name=Jekt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jekt @ Oct 20 2012, 07:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994022"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do people actually enjoy this aggressive feedback<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. I think nobody gets the thought "COOL!", but instead thinks "DAMN WTF" and after they've ignored it they just think "that ###### again".
<!--quoteo(post=1994102:date=Oct 20 2012, 02:04 PM:name=Reeke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reeke @ Oct 20 2012, 02:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats a shame. I guess UWE will just have to put up with the sales & playtime from the 99% who don't care about being in a competitive clan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that why they're trying so so hard to create tournaments, providing flights and prizes to teams, streams etc?
Seems like they care alot, which is great. They just need the right game to go along with it.
With tournaments and a competitive scene comes exposure, UWE know this. How do you think LoL, SC2, QuakeLive, CS got so big?
Problem is the competitive players have to like your game to wanna play it seriously over the many other choices out there.
I agree that combat becomes really quite messy sometimes, there can be a lot happening on screen. Welding an exo in battle for example, can be a nightmare.
I saw a video the other day, and I love that umbra sort of 'clings' to and trails lifeforms who have run through the clouds.
I really liked the idea of the lerk firing spores/umbra onto the ground in a small area and lifeforms running through it to pick them up and trail them around. I think that would benefit team play, as well as reducing spore vision issues. As well as umbra.
So skulk sort of gets a poison bonus when it bites, etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1994101:date=Oct 20 2012, 05:00 AM:name=Koven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koven @ Oct 20 2012, 05:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Putting it nicely:
Well UWE want to push this as a competitive game so this is a very valid argument. When money is on the line, having so much vision impairment and other 'immersion' effects is not wanted, by ANY competitive player.
Putting it bluntly:
If you want 'immersion' or whatever you wanna call it, go play Doom 3 or Amnesia. Vision impairment and other 'skill ceiling lowering mechanics' have no place in a competitive multiplayer game.
UWE have to decide if they want a good competitive game or a multiplayer Amnesia, I don't believe you can have both. Depending on which one UWE chooses, I and many other competitive players will or will not continue to play this game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a BS argument. Please show me a marine loss that was due to "visual obscurity". I've gone through many marine losses and wins without getting a single visual block on my screen with the exception of lerk spores sometimes.
<!--quoteo(post=1994102:date=Oct 21 2012, 12:04 AM:name=Reeke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reeke @ Oct 21 2012, 12:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats a shame. I guess UWE will just have to put up with the sales & playtime from the 99% who don't care about being in a competitive clan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well i don't think its about this comp vs pub thing again. No matter how 'hardcore' you play or how much time you put in, a game of NS2 will always entail you trying you're hardest to beat the opposing team in some way or other. This means that there is inherently a very low tolerance for vision blocking mechanics considering the game ruleset and how the players are well.. playing the game.
There was a good quote from another related thread here <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=122039" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=122039</a>. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"However, I suppose gamers do not particularly prefer easy games. What they want is interesting and worthwhile games to play, so I think it is natural that hindrance or stress that does not attribute to such interesting and worthwhile elements will be removed in the end." Hidetaka Miyazaki<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The question is whether vision blocking makes the game interesting and <b>worthwhile</b> to play? Player empowerment is crucial, or atleast the illusion of such. The high level of vision blocking in NS2 drastically takes away from this when you consider the game is built around an fps/rts model where the "worthwhileness" is in getting better in order to beat other players and win (namely a skill curve). Vision blocking is a hindrance in this model. Is it fun to lose many times to someone you know is worse than you simply because you cannot see or track due to vision block and fps drop? *edit* or let me put it this way - is it a worthwhile way to spend your time getting better at a game when there is a pretty good chance all your practice is going to end up being meaningless?
It's also not quite right to say that vision blocking is ok because it happens rarely. If we modded in a small chance for a lighting bolt to magically strike and render blind a random player at any time and this served as a balance mechanism, is this ok? Even if the lighting bolt was immersive because the map was on a lightning planet? These kind of arguements make no sense. All this said, i would encourage anyone who thinks vision blocking is so rare it's not worth considering to play not only on 24p servers, but against players who make full use of said troll mechanics. (e.g. people who actually understand how powerful lerk spore is and abuse it to the fullest)
To me it seems the game suffers from overly dark and cluttered visuals, the average lighting level in most maps is very low, fog and atmospherics are excessive and so contrast is poor, blacks just aren't black enough, it doesn't help that the main theme they chose was dark and dirty and while there have been some improvements i find i quite often prefer turning shadows off so i can see things better, it all adds up to give less than ideal visuals.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well i don't think its about this comp vs pub thing again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course not. It was a sarcy reply to a post that has been deleted, it could be summed up as "wah wah, make the game exactly as I want it or me and all the competitive players won't play anymore"
I'l agree with the others who've said there's alot of exaggeration going on here. I play on 20 man servers mostly and have never seen it as a problem apart from when the particles slaughter my FPS.
<!--quoteo(post=1994022:date=Oct 19 2012, 11:46 PM:name=Jekt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jekt @ Oct 19 2012, 11:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994022"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do people actually enjoy this aggressive feedback for vortex, or making trailing spores worthwhile by reducing the transparency, nerfing the exo by increasing susceptibility to these vision impairments, or having abilities exist just to blind marines?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes.
Counter-strike has smoke and flash grenades, and is a great "competitive" game. The point of this thread?
Oh, by the way don't neglect the aural effects like sound dampening when low health, when chomping on buildings, when power nodes go up, using silence, etc. etc. That's also an important, and (at least for me) immersive and enjoyable part of gameplay. I actually wish there was more aural feedback like maybe sound dampening BF-style e.g. when a grenade lands next to you. Might give aggro-friendly-nade-spamming tactics an actual drawback.
I'm sure someone will make a mod removing all this someday anyway. I just won't play it :-) .
I can't believe someone started this thread?! They're marines, with guns, that they have to POINT and SHOOT. Why would alien players not love ways to impair this ability they have? Why would you not want that piece of game mechanic? For Pete's sake, in the movies man is mostly easy prey because of their inferior sight/auditory senses (Except for good ol' Arnold).
Just look at Left 4 Dead and the crazy effects that constantly impair you. It's great. *And immersing.
Counter-strike has smoke and flash grenades, and is a great "competitive" game. The point of this thread?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I knew someone would eventually bring flashbangs and smoke up lol.
Don't be silly. Flashbangs are no way comparable. They had a high opportunity cost in terms of the cs economy, you could only carry two, they were counterable by 'skill' (looking away when they explode), their effect diminished significantly over range, and the full effect if you were looking at it only lasted a couple of seconds (compare this to exo bile or spore duration). Worlds apart from NS2 vision blocking mechanics.
As for smoke. Mostly useless and expensive. It was still very easy to see through smoke (you had to stack smoke grenades to get anywhere near the level of vision blocking ns2 effects have). Also, smoke blocked the vision of BOTH teams unlike our ns2 counterparts.
And now for why these examples cannot be carried over into NS2. NS aiming involves tracking very fast and unpredictable objects in precise fashion - you cannot just spray and pray and hope to hit 5 bullets or so. Not to mention vanilla skulks take <b>10</b> bullets. Being able to clearly see targets is magnitudes more important than in a game like CS.
As for someone mentioning what then should be the balance mechanism instead of vision blocking? Better movement. I hate to say it, but NS1 solved this problem already.
This is something i've been banging on about for years and I hate the arguments for including visual obscuration. There's a similar theme to the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117596&hl=" target="_blank">negative abilities</a> thread and so far, I haven't seen one respectably skilled player in favour of all the crap that our eyes have to contend with.
Keep all this malarkey for single-player games where people only play it once and don't actually have to be good at it.
I never played NS1, but from the videos I've seen this appears to just be a different game altogether.
Sure, the idea, basic structure of the game, lifeforms, etc. are copied, but the gameplay of NS2 seems much different in a lot of ways.
It would be an interesting idea to make a mod that plays exactly like NS1, with smaller-sized rooms / models(?), greatly increased speed of movement and acceleration, seemingly(?) higher damage guns and bites, etc. but to be honest, in this engine I don't think it would work well. Might be worth a try though. This close to release, I don't think there are going to be adjustments nearly dramatic enough to bring gameplay to the speed it is in NS1 in some ways.
---
Speaking now of the severity of the visual effects in NS2, the only really severe effects IMO are ink cloud and spores. Jetpack dust, gorge spit, cyst rupture - all of those disappear pretty quickly in my experience and hardly give any real pressure to marines, unless timed perfectly. With Vortex it doesn't matter because if you're in it you can't do anything or have anything done to you anyway, so the screen might as well be blank.
And sure, like in CS there is some cost to those effects - a shade hive+shades or t-res for spores, but it's probably a lower opportunity cost, and when obtained they can be spammed for free (energy).
You could argue there is skill in avoiding visually disturbing effects in NS2 though - how about killing the lerk before it comes close, or 1-shotting it with a shotgun and a teammate, killing the shades from a distance, killing gorges with infantry, etc. For pretty much every effect there is some "counter." The effects only get overwhelming when marines are losing badly from what I have seen.
<!--quoteo(post=1994147:date=Oct 20 2012, 12:02 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 20 2012, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could argue there is skill in avoiding visually disturbing effects in NS2 though<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, you <i>could </i>argue that, but you would be what we in the business call 'a tryhard'
it's a skill that you can't develop like aiming, movement, timing or positioning, because it depends much more on what the opponent does than what you do
how do I avoid the opposing gorge left clicking? oh, right, I kill him first with my 5000 dps gun that has perfect accuracy, infinite range and sick registration
thanks dude!
"I haven't played NS1 but I love all the things that make NS2 a disaster" repeated ad nauseum is a really good formula for a forum
Which gun are you talking about? Is this some kind of whine about how guns don't have enough DPS or hitreg or something? Especially in 223 that whine shouldn't be present. From what I've seen marines don't really have much of a problem killing gorges, especially when jetpacks are involved.
<!--quoteo(post=1994149:date=Oct 20 2012, 10:05 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Oct 20 2012, 10:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994149"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"I haven't played NS1 but I love all the things that make NS2 a disaster" repeated ad nauseum is a really good formula for a forum<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, today I can't get over how crappy NS1 looks. It looks horrible by today's standards. I know underneath it was probably a good game, solid, responsive (goldsrc engine after all), fun, etc., but the reality is that even I who started playing games in the 90's, wouldn't bother with NS1, just because of the audio, visuals, gui, etc.
And maybe I wasn't clear enough above - I actually ENJOY these visual-impairing effects. I enjoy them being done to me as marine, and I enjoy doing them as alien/alien com. It's part of the "fun" I get from this game. If it was removed and/or toned down that fun that I get would be gone. Simple as that. Those visual effects gone - that would be a "disaster" for me.
<!--quoteo(post=1994150:date=Oct 20 2012, 12:08 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 20 2012, 12:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which gun are you talking about? Is this some kind of whine about how guns don't have enough DPS or hitreg or something? Especially in 223 that whine shouldn't be present. From what I've seen marines don't really have much of a problem killing gorges, especially when jetpacks are involved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, I'm making fun of how you think there's skill in preventing visual effects that happen any time anyone does anything (including yourself, or friendly buildings) not just that, but you're prepared to rationalize this in enormous posts that start with "I didn't play NS1" and you still expect to be taken seriously
<!--quoteo(post=1994150:date=Oct 20 2012, 12:08 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 20 2012, 12:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And maybe I wasn't clear enough above - I actually ENJOY these visual-impairing effects. I enjoy them being done to me as marine, and I enjoy doing them as alien/alien com. It's part of the "fun" I get from this game. If it was removed and/or toned down that fun that I get would be gone. Simple as that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's fine, and it's your choice
however, it runs against what most classic FPS players will want from this (you know, the people who supported NS1 for 10 years and paid for NS2 to be developed) it's also dishonest to present a "competitive" game where you can't remove stupid effects like this, and the "skill" is in killing things before they can left click and goop your monitor
as a general rule, if there's a thread complaining about something that gets past 5 posts and isn't closed, it's a valid complaint and no amount of curious logic or anecdotes from new players will change that
<!--quoteo(post=1994151:date=Oct 20 2012, 10:13 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Oct 20 2012, 10:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->however, it runs against what most classic FPS players will want from this (you know, the people who supported NS1 for 10 years and paid for NS2 to be developed) it's also dishonest to present a "competitive" game where you can't remove stupid effects like this, and the "skill" is in killing things before they can left click and goop your monitor<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a classic FPS player and I want this (you know, the person who played FPS games for 15 years and paid for NS2). Who are you or anyone else that your opinion should be valued more than mine?
Again, what makes these effects get in the way of this game being "competitive?" There's plenty of listening, positioning, movement, and aiming in this game, even with all the visual impairments present. Actually maybe they're not strong enough, because I don't see them being used much in competitive games. If they're so crippling, why aren't they being used more?
<!--quoteo(post=1994147:date=Oct 20 2012, 12:02 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 20 2012, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never played NS1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1994157:date=Oct 20 2012, 12:25 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 20 2012, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm a classic FPS player<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright. Whatever you say, dawg.
<!--quoteo(post=1994157:date=Oct 20 2012, 12:25 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 20 2012, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they're so crippling, why aren't they being used more?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
how can you use something more when it's all your entire team does?
<!--quoteo(post=1994157:date=Oct 20 2012, 12:25 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 20 2012, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, what makes these effects get in the way of this game being "competitive?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's probably the fact that they're incredibly easy to trigger at all skill levels (i.e. low floor, low ceiling), and have an effect much bigger than the effort or risk tied to using them
<b>in other words: </b>they don't totally remove movement/aim/positioning/communication/etc, but they do actively take away from those things by de-emphasizing them on the part of aliens players (vortex is probably the best example)
should I go find the 100 posts where people "like" how spores let them easily waddle into combat and get free bites every time? or the other 100 posts where it gets debated and spores are eventually toned down?
<!--quoteo(post=1994151:date=Oct 20 2012, 05:13 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Oct 20 2012, 05:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no, I'm making fun of how you think there's skill in preventing visual effects that happen any time anyone does anything (including yourself, or friendly buildings) not just that, but you're prepared to rationalize this in enormous posts that start with "I didn't play NS1" and you still expect to be taken seriously<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ouch, someone's been drink posting again.
I think people who didn't play NS1 should be able to voice their opinions about NS2.
for the record, I find the flashlight to be the most annoying visual impairment in NS2, because it's suppose to help, but actually the cone ends up obfuscating the things behind it. The other impairments, which are as a result of a weapon on the enemy team, might not be the zenith, but they are certainly not the nadir of design, nor imo the most pressing issue (looking at you skulk bite).
LOL, so NS1 was such a huge game, that nobody who didn't play it is an "accomplished seal-of-approval Classic FPS player."
That is, I must say, hilarious.
I'm guessing when I was playing doom, duke3d, and RA over modem with my friends, because, you know, the internet didn't exist where I lived, makes me kind of "non-classic" in a way.
XD
I guess it's the same story here as on the CS forums before the release of CS:GO; an entitled collective whine from all the "classic 1.6" players, who I'm guessing aren't playing CS:GO anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1994162:date=Oct 20 2012, 12:34 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 20 2012, 12:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->LOL, so NS1 was such a huge game, that nobody who didn't play it is an "accomplished seal-of-approval Classic FPS player."
That is, I must say, hilarious.
I'm guessing when I was playing doom, duke3d, and RA over modem with my friends, because, you know, the internet didn't exist where I lived, makes me kind of "non-classic" in a way.
XD
I guess it's the same story here as on the CS forums before the release of CS:GO; an entitled collective whine from all the "classic 1.6" players, who I'm guessing aren't playing CS:GO anyway.
NS1 is dead. Long live NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the ns2 community, folks
you're right - ns2 <i>is </i>a different game altogether. you can keep it :)
What community are you talking about? The game hasn't even been released.
The majority of the forums right now is NS1 enthusiasts waiting and clamoring for a HD remake, with a minority who discovered this game through totalbiscuit or other publications over the last few years.
<!--quoteo(post=1994164:date=Oct 20 2012, 12:41 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 20 2012, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What community are you talking about? The game hasn't even been released.
The majority of the forums right now is NS1 enthusiasts waiting and clamoring for a HD remake, with a minority who discovered this game through totalbiscuit or other publications over the last few years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, I'm talking about the second one
totalbiscuit kiddies with a chip on their shoulder
<!--quoteo(post=1994170:date=Oct 20 2012, 09:48 AM:name=Reeke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reeke @ Oct 20 2012, 09:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994170"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->woha, talk about pot kettle black.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I thought the pun was okay.
<!--quoteo(post=1994174:date=Oct 20 2012, 12:50 PM:name=Fappuchino)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fappuchino @ Oct 20 2012, 12:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought the pun was okay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
congrats you have achieved high level literacy! :))))
Vladimir Van VodkaSexy BeastJoin Date: 2010-07-30Member: 73364Members, Reinforced - Shadow
I personally never had any problems with visual obscurity as a marine, I understand Lerk spores and Ink Cloud, they are supposed to obscure.
As an alien I play with alien vision when in combat, so no problem there neither. Most of the effects last only a split second to a couple. I prefer visual feedback over <i>none</i> any day.
Is it really that horrendous where we have to start hating each-other over visual effects?
Comments
No. I think nobody gets the thought "COOL!", but instead thinks "DAMN WTF" and after they've ignored it they just think "that ###### again".
Is that why they're trying so so hard to create tournaments, providing flights and prizes to teams, streams etc?
Seems like they care alot, which is great. They just need the right game to go along with it.
With tournaments and a competitive scene comes exposure, UWE know this. How do you think LoL, SC2, QuakeLive, CS got so big?
Problem is the competitive players have to like your game to wanna play it seriously over the many other choices out there.
I saw a video the other day, and I love that umbra sort of 'clings' to and trails lifeforms who have run through the clouds.
I really liked the idea of the lerk firing spores/umbra onto the ground in a small area and lifeforms running through it to pick them up and trail them around. I think that would benefit team play, as well as reducing spore vision issues. As well as umbra.
So skulk sort of gets a poison bonus when it bites, etc.
Well UWE want to push this as a competitive game so this is a very valid argument. When money is on the line, having so much vision impairment and other 'immersion' effects is not wanted, by ANY competitive player.
Putting it bluntly:
If you want 'immersion' or whatever you wanna call it, go play Doom 3 or Amnesia. Vision impairment and other 'skill ceiling lowering mechanics' have no place in a competitive multiplayer game.
UWE have to decide if they want a good competitive game or a multiplayer Amnesia, I don't believe you can have both. Depending on which one UWE chooses, I and many other competitive players will or will not continue to play this game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a BS argument. Please show me a marine loss that was due to "visual obscurity". I've gone through many marine losses and wins without getting a single visual block on my screen with the exception of lerk spores sometimes.
You're blowing this way out of proportion.
Well i don't think its about this comp vs pub thing again. No matter how 'hardcore' you play or how much time you put in, a game of NS2 will always entail you trying you're hardest to beat the opposing team in some way or other. This means that there is inherently a very low tolerance for vision blocking mechanics considering the game ruleset and how the players are well.. playing the game.
There was a good quote from another related thread here <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=122039" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=122039</a>.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"However, I suppose gamers do not particularly prefer easy games. What they want is interesting and worthwhile games to play, so I think it is natural that hindrance or stress that does not attribute to such interesting and worthwhile elements will be removed in the end."
Hidetaka Miyazaki<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The question is whether vision blocking makes the game interesting and <b>worthwhile</b> to play? Player empowerment is crucial, or atleast the illusion of such. The high level of vision blocking in NS2 drastically takes away from this when you consider the game is built around an fps/rts model where the "worthwhileness" is in getting better in order to beat other players and win (namely a skill curve). Vision blocking is a hindrance in this model. Is it fun to lose many times to someone you know is worse than you simply because you cannot see or track due to vision block and fps drop? *edit* or let me put it this way - is it a worthwhile way to spend your time getting better at a game when there is a pretty good chance all your practice is going to end up being meaningless?
It's also not quite right to say that vision blocking is ok because it happens rarely. If we modded in a small chance for a lighting bolt to magically strike and render blind a random player at any time and this served as a balance mechanism, is this ok? Even if the lighting bolt was immersive because the map was on a lightning planet? These kind of arguements make no sense. All this said, i would encourage anyone who thinks vision blocking is so rare it's not worth considering to play not only on 24p servers, but against players who make full use of said troll mechanics. (e.g. people who actually understand how powerful lerk spore is and abuse it to the fullest)
Of course not. It was a sarcy reply to a post that has been deleted, it could be summed up as "wah wah, make the game exactly as I want it or me and all the competitive players won't play anymore"
I'l agree with the others who've said there's alot of exaggeration going on here. I play on 20 man servers mostly and have never seen it as a problem apart from when the particles slaughter my FPS.
Yes.
Counter-strike has smoke and flash grenades, and is a great "competitive" game. The point of this thread?
Oh, by the way don't neglect the aural effects like sound dampening when low health, when chomping on buildings, when power nodes go up, using silence, etc. etc. That's also an important, and (at least for me) immersive and enjoyable part of gameplay. I actually wish there was more aural feedback like maybe sound dampening BF-style e.g. when a grenade lands next to you. Might give aggro-friendly-nade-spamming tactics an actual drawback.
I'm sure someone will make a mod removing all this someday anyway. I just won't play it :-) .
Just look at Left 4 Dead and the crazy effects that constantly impair you. It's great. *And immersing.
Counter-strike has smoke and flash grenades, and is a great "competitive" game. The point of this thread?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I knew someone would eventually bring flashbangs and smoke up lol.
Don't be silly. Flashbangs are no way comparable. They had a high opportunity cost in terms of the cs economy, you could only carry two, they were counterable by 'skill' (looking away when they explode), their effect diminished significantly over range, and the full effect if you were looking at it only lasted a couple of seconds (compare this to exo bile or spore duration). Worlds apart from NS2 vision blocking mechanics.
As for smoke. Mostly useless and expensive. It was still very easy to see through smoke (you had to stack smoke grenades to get anywhere near the level of vision blocking ns2 effects have). Also, smoke blocked the vision of BOTH teams unlike our ns2 counterparts.
And now for why these examples cannot be carried over into NS2. NS aiming involves tracking very fast and unpredictable objects in precise fashion - you cannot just spray and pray and hope to hit 5 bullets or so. Not to mention vanilla skulks take <b>10</b> bullets. Being able to clearly see targets is magnitudes more important than in a game like CS.
As for someone mentioning what then should be the balance mechanism instead of vision blocking? Better movement. I hate to say it, but NS1 solved this problem already.
Keep all this malarkey for single-player games where people only play it once and don't actually have to be good at it.
Sure, the idea, basic structure of the game, lifeforms, etc. are copied, but the gameplay of NS2 seems much different in a lot of ways.
It would be an interesting idea to make a mod that plays exactly like NS1, with smaller-sized rooms / models(?), greatly increased speed of movement and acceleration, seemingly(?) higher damage guns and bites, etc. but to be honest, in this engine I don't think it would work well. Might be worth a try though. This close to release, I don't think there are going to be adjustments nearly dramatic enough to bring gameplay to the speed it is in NS1 in some ways.
---
Speaking now of the severity of the visual effects in NS2, the only really severe effects IMO are ink cloud and spores. Jetpack dust, gorge spit, cyst rupture - all of those disappear pretty quickly in my experience and hardly give any real pressure to marines, unless timed perfectly. With Vortex it doesn't matter because if you're in it you can't do anything or have anything done to you anyway, so the screen might as well be blank.
And sure, like in CS there is some cost to those effects - a shade hive+shades or t-res for spores, but it's probably a lower opportunity cost, and when obtained they can be spammed for free (energy).
You could argue there is skill in avoiding visually disturbing effects in NS2 though - how about killing the lerk before it comes close, or 1-shotting it with a shotgun and a teammate, killing the shades from a distance, killing gorges with infantry, etc. For pretty much every effect there is some "counter." The effects only get overwhelming when marines are losing badly from what I have seen.
yes, you <i>could </i>argue that, but you would be what we in the business call 'a tryhard'
it's a skill that you can't develop like aiming, movement, timing or positioning, because it depends much more on what the opponent does than what you do
how do I avoid the opposing gorge left clicking? oh, right, I kill him first with my 5000 dps gun that has perfect accuracy, infinite range and sick registration
thanks dude!
"I haven't played NS1 but I love all the things that make NS2 a disaster" repeated ad nauseum is a really good formula for a forum
<!--quoteo(post=1994149:date=Oct 20 2012, 10:05 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Oct 20 2012, 10:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994149"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"I haven't played NS1 but I love all the things that make NS2 a disaster" repeated ad nauseum is a really good formula for a forum<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, today I can't get over how crappy NS1 looks. It looks horrible by today's standards. I know underneath it was probably a good game, solid, responsive (goldsrc engine after all), fun, etc., but the reality is that even I who started playing games in the 90's, wouldn't bother with NS1, just because of the audio, visuals, gui, etc.
And maybe I wasn't clear enough above - I actually ENJOY these visual-impairing effects. I enjoy them being done to me as marine, and I enjoy doing them as alien/alien com. It's part of the "fun" I get from this game. If it was removed and/or toned down that fun that I get would be gone. Simple as that. Those visual effects gone - that would be a "disaster" for me.
no, I'm making fun of how you think there's skill in preventing visual effects that happen any time anyone does anything (including yourself, or friendly buildings)
not just that, but you're prepared to rationalize this in enormous posts that start with "I didn't play NS1" and you still expect to be taken seriously
<!--quoteo(post=1994150:date=Oct 20 2012, 12:08 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 20 2012, 12:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And maybe I wasn't clear enough above - I actually ENJOY these visual-impairing effects. I enjoy them being done to me as marine, and I enjoy doing them as alien/alien com. It's part of the "fun" I get from this game. If it was removed and/or toned down that fun that I get would be gone. Simple as that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's fine, and it's your choice
however, it runs against what most classic FPS players will want from this (you know, the people who supported NS1 for 10 years and paid for NS2 to be developed)
it's also dishonest to present a "competitive" game where you can't remove stupid effects like this, and the "skill" is in killing things before they can left click and goop your monitor
as a general rule, if there's a thread complaining about something that gets past 5 posts and isn't closed, it's a valid complaint and no amount of curious logic or anecdotes from new players will change that
it's also dishonest to present a "competitive" game where you can't remove stupid effects like this, and the "skill" is in killing things before they can left click and goop your monitor<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a classic FPS player and I want this (you know, the person who played FPS games for 15 years and paid for NS2). Who are you or anyone else that your opinion should be valued more than mine?
Again, what makes these effects get in the way of this game being "competitive?" There's plenty of listening, positioning, movement, and aiming in this game, even with all the visual impairments present. Actually maybe they're not strong enough, because I don't see them being used much in competitive games. If they're so crippling, why aren't they being used more?
<!--quoteo(post=1994157:date=Oct 20 2012, 12:25 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 20 2012, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm a classic FPS player<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright. Whatever you say, dawg.
<!--quoteo(post=1994157:date=Oct 20 2012, 12:25 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 20 2012, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they're so crippling, why aren't they being used more?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
how can you use something more when it's all your entire team does?
<!--quoteo(post=1994157:date=Oct 20 2012, 12:25 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 20 2012, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, what makes these effects get in the way of this game being "competitive?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's probably the fact that they're incredibly easy to trigger at all skill levels (i.e. low floor, low ceiling), and have an effect much bigger than the effort or risk tied to using them
<b>in other words: </b>they don't totally remove movement/aim/positioning/communication/etc, but they do actively take away from those things by de-emphasizing them on the part of aliens players (vortex is probably the best example)
should I go find the 100 posts where people "like" how spores let them easily waddle into combat and get free bites every time? or the other 100 posts where it gets debated and spores are eventually toned down?
not just that, but you're prepared to rationalize this in enormous posts that start with "I didn't play NS1" and you still expect to be taken seriously<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ouch, someone's been drink posting again.
I think people who didn't play NS1 should be able to voice their opinions about NS2.
for the record, I find the flashlight to be the most annoying visual impairment in NS2, because it's suppose to help, but actually the cone ends up obfuscating the things behind it. The other impairments, which are as a result of a weapon on the enemy team, might not be the zenith, but they are certainly not the nadir of design, nor imo the most pressing issue (looking at you skulk bite).
That is, I must say, hilarious.
I'm guessing when I was playing doom, duke3d, and RA over modem with my friends, because, you know, the internet didn't exist where I lived, makes me kind of "non-classic" in a way.
XD
I guess it's the same story here as on the CS forums before the release of CS:GO; an entitled collective whine from all the "classic 1.6" players, who I'm guessing aren't playing CS:GO anyway.
NS1 is dead. Long live NS2.
That is, I must say, hilarious.
I'm guessing when I was playing doom, duke3d, and RA over modem with my friends, because, you know, the internet didn't exist where I lived, makes me kind of "non-classic" in a way.
XD
I guess it's the same story here as on the CS forums before the release of CS:GO; an entitled collective whine from all the "classic 1.6" players, who I'm guessing aren't playing CS:GO anyway.
NS1 is dead. Long live NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the ns2 community, folks
you're right - ns2 <i>is </i>a different game altogether. you can keep it :)
The majority of the forums right now is NS1 enthusiasts waiting and clamoring for a HD remake, with a minority who discovered this game through totalbiscuit or other publications over the last few years.
The majority of the forums right now is NS1 enthusiasts waiting and clamoring for a HD remake, with a minority who discovered this game through totalbiscuit or other publications over the last few years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, I'm talking about the second one
totalbiscuit kiddies with a chip on their shoulder
...
woha, talk about pot kettle black.
I thought the pun was okay.
congrats you have achieved high level literacy! :))))
As an alien I play with alien vision when in combat, so no problem there neither.
Most of the effects last only a split second to a couple.
I prefer visual feedback over <i>none</i> any day.
Is it really that horrendous where we have to start hating each-other over visual effects?