<!--quoteo(post=1975031:date=Sep 10 2012, 05:27 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 10 2012, 05:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975031"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Flamethrower promo page thing lied then (The one that was put up when the Flamethrower was first added to the game). It said it drained energy.
Edit: I don't see why you'd think that draining energy would be OP though. When playing on the Alien side, I literally never even come close to running out of energy on any lifeform with the exception of Parasite/Bile Bomb spam even without Adren. And as mentioned, the MAC has an AOE energy drain for 3 tres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't compare a hardly ever used and very specific mechanic with a simple "buy this weapon, hit mouse1"
If the flamer drains energy, this is a death sentence for every fade and lerk. As soon as you engage a flamer marine, you are dead. Either by him killing you when your energy is empty, or his teammates killing you after you killed him and ended up without energy to flee. You shouldn't switch form one extreme to another. Yes, the flamer should be feared. It should be difficult to engage a flamer marine as fade. It should be difficult to retreat if you risk to fight to long with him. But it should not be a death sentence.
With a minimal energy regen while burning (a fixed value so adrenaline don't mess this up!) you are forced to quickly end the fight or retreat. If not you will end up without energy and than dead. It would be a risk to engage a flamer and it worked very good this way in pre-adrenaline builds.
<u>At the topic of universal fades:</u> They are universal against marines right now, yes. (But not against buildings) Restricting fades with higher energy costs for blink and swipe would force surgical strikes. Blink in; swipe 3x or 4x and blink out. If you stick longer in the fight, your energy will be empty. Restricting the fade with lower hp has been tried and doesn't work because of shotgun luck shots. It is highly frustrating to loose a 50res life form because of bad luck.
<!--quoteo(post=1975624:date=Sep 11 2012, 01:14 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Sep 11 2012, 01:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->fade is so weak now its pathetic, onos is pretty bad too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're assuming that if the Flamethrower drained energy, you'd suddenly be left with 0 energy as soon as the flames touched you. The numbers can be adjusted. It's kind of like the guy I was arguing with earlier who claimed that if Sniper Rifles didn't one hit kill with no wobble, then everyone would use SMG's and nothing else because SMG's trump every other weapon (We weren't talking about any game in particular).
Fade being weak is pretty laughable.. it may have low hp but you can basically endlessly spam abilities with adren which is how 90% of fade players use the class.. which requires absolutely 0 skill to achieve a decent level of effectiveness, which is what breaks fade/marine gameplay in most pubs. Aliens also need to have somewhat of a learning curve to match increasing levels of marine aim, otherwise you get vast balance issues due to the ease of use of alien classes versus the increased difficulty of actually aiming correctly at them.
IMO the change needed is to make the abilities less spamable.. a big part of the comes from the effects of blink (and shadowstep).
Personally i believe that shadowstep should be removed (or increased to about 35-40 energy a use), and blink made hive 1 and also made to have a slightly less instant speed gain, and a little more progressive of a gain.
That and collisions need to be tweaked for the fade, if you $*#( up and blink into walls or crates or ###### you should get blocked, not just spaz around and bounce off or around what you run into.
<!--quoteo(post=1975769:date=Sep 11 2012, 09:43 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Sep 11 2012, 09:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975769"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fade being weak is pretty laughable.. it may have low hp but you can basically endlessly spam abilities with adren which is how 90% of fade players use the class.. which requires absolutely 0 skill to achieve a decent level of effectiveness, which is what breaks fade/marine gameplay in most pubs. Aliens also need to have somewhat of a learning curve to match increasing levels of marine aim, otherwise you get vast balance issues due to the ease of use of alien classes versus the increased difficulty of actually aiming correctly at them.
IMO the change needed is to make the abilities less spamable.. a big part of the comes from the effects of blink (and shadowstep).
Personally i believe that shadowstep should be removed (or increased to about 35-40 energy a use), and blink made hive 1 and also made to have a slightly less instant speed gain, and a little more progressive of a gain.
That and collisions need to be tweaked for the fade, if you $*#( up and blink into walls or crates or ###### you should get blocked, not just spaz around and bounce off or around what you run into.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not just remove Blink and make Shadowstep the new Blink?
Give Gorges webs back. Make the lerk bite act as a paralytic temporarily grounding a jetpacker. Significantly increase jetpack fuel recharge. There's any number of things they can do to counter balance that if it proves to be a significant issue. But Blink needs to be seriously looked at.
<!--quoteo(post=1975769:date=Sep 11 2012, 10:43 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Sep 11 2012, 10:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975769"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fade being weak is pretty laughable.. it may have low hp but you can basically endlessly spam abilities with adren which is how 90% of fade players use the class.. which requires absolutely 0 skill to achieve a decent level of effectiveness, which is what breaks fade/marine gameplay in most pubs. Aliens also need to have somewhat of a learning curve to match increasing levels of marine aim, otherwise you get vast balance issues due to the ease of use of alien classes versus the increased difficulty of actually aiming correctly at them.
IMO the change needed is to make the abilities less spamable.. a big part of the comes from the effects of blink (and shadowstep).
Personally i believe that shadowstep should be removed (or increased to about 35-40 energy a use), and blink made hive 1 and also made to have a slightly less instant speed gain, and a little more progressive of a gain.
That and collisions need to be tweaked for the fade, if you $*#( up and blink into walls or crates or ###### you should get blocked, not just spaz around and bounce off or around what you run into.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so your solution is spam for marines vs non spam for alien? so further inhibit alien movement, for a team where movement is where they are supposed to dominate... screw it just remove all function from alien team and just turn the game into egg shoot a thon. its bad enough exos dont even have a reload.
and blink at hive 1, not even ns1 vets would have the balls to say that lol.
considering i would call myself an NS1 vet im not sure what that is supposed to mean... Other than your attitude is terrible and you made yourself look like an ass.
And making blink better basically completely removes the need for shadowstep IMO (unless its purely an evasionary skill in which case it should actually cost significant energy to use)...
Blink in NS1 was the fades only movement ability besides bhop and he seemed to do just fine from what i remember...
Not sure how thats a terrible idea, but insulting me certainly does nothing to prove my point wrong.. Glad to see you present alternatives to ideas instead of just calling them ######
<!--quoteo(post=1975892:date=Sep 11 2012, 02:54 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Sep 11 2012, 02:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but insulting me certainly does nothing to prove my point wrong..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Other than your attitude is terrible and you made yourself look like an ass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Glad to see you present alternatives to ideas instead of just calling them ######<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny... Just this evening I had a few rounds in wich my concern about this topic grew a lot (and reminded me of NS1) and now I discovered this thread: Fades ARE too strong. There is NO counter-unit for it. Hell a fast blinking fade can destroy an exo with ease because of its movement.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1975900:date=Sep 11 2012, 02:06 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Sep 11 2012, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right, but this is NS2 where marine players won't be happy until aliens fall over dead just by looking at them.
Bads gonna be bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you ever have a post that isnt "Marines are crying again" "Marines just want to win" "Marines are babies" ?? I mean.. going through your post history is telling lol
What exactly are you trying to get at. How exactly is Fade a weak class in comparison to the NS1 fade. They're functionally identical with NS2 Fade having increased mobility via shadowstep.
You just spout off nonsense and do nothing to substantiate anything you say.
<!--quoteo(post=1975920:date=Sep 11 2012, 02:39 PM:name=Chem)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chem @ Sep 11 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What exactly are you trying to get at. How exactly is Fade a weak class in comparison to the NS1 fade. They're functionally identical with NS2 Fade having increased mobility via shadowstep.
You just spout off nonsense and do nothing to substantiate anything you say.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, it lacks Acid Rocket for one. AR was really rather powerful.
<!--quoteo(post=1975918:date=Sep 11 2012, 05:39 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 11 2012, 05:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you ever have a post that isnt "Marines are crying again" "Marines just want to win" "Marines are babies" ?? I mean.. going through your post history is telling lol<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope.
Because legitimate discussion or ideas that could, you know, improve alien gameplay has been ignored time and time again. That's why alien game play is abysmal and we have stupid "trade offs" in the game (carapace slowdown, celerity ceasing to work in combat), because of the constant whining by the marine player base. Any time there are alien "improvements" its always in the wrong areas (faster egg respawn rate when it's the 3-limit cap that's causing issues in larger games). So instead of repeating the same thing over and over again in hopes that it might get through when it clearly isn't going to, might as well make fun of bad marines who don't want to improve and would rather cry on the forum and get everything nerfed.
<!--quoteo(post=1975908:date=Sep 11 2012, 02:20 PM:name=no_idea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (no_idea @ Sep 11 2012, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Funny... Just this evening I had a few rounds in wich my concern about this topic grew a lot (and reminded me of NS1) and now I discovered this thread: Fades ARE too strong. There is NO counter-unit for it. Hell a fast blinking fade can destroy an exo with ease because of its movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are plenty of soft counters.
The devs have noted that it's hard to balance the Fade. It's close, but they still want to tweak a few things. But having an explicit direct counter isn't what they want. It is an expensive unit, and therefore should be more powerful than basic Marines.
With multiple Marines, better upgrades, and advanced weapons Fades can be taken down easily.
But you're right. Against new players, it's hard to track the movements. Most Fades are extremely strong veterans who can mobilize the Fade into a death machine. It takes a combination of things like Energy depletion (flamethrowers, EMPs from MACs) plus damage (shotgun, aim, GLs, Mines, more dudes) to kill one.
Because legitimate discussion or ideas that could, you know, improve alien gameplay has been ignored time and time again. That's why alien game play is abysmal and we have stupid "trade offs" in the game (carapace slowdown, celerity ceasing to work in combat), because of the constant whining by the marine player base. Any time there are alien "improvements" its always in the wrong areas (faster egg respawn rate when it's the 3-limit cap that's causing issues in larger games). So instead of repeating the same thing over and over again in hopes that it might get through when it clearly isn't going to, might as well make fun of bad marines who don't want to improve and would rather cry on the forum and get everything nerfed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a pretty terrible post to make. Most all of the posters on these forums play both factions and want a balanced game. You're clearly the outlier in that you play only one faction (aliens) and it shows in your posts. As soon as you say something like "the constant whining by the marine player base" then any critical thinker dismisses the rest of your post as biased BS. If you actually wanted to affect change onto anyone's opinion then you should at least present your opinions of marine persecution in a less of a conspiritard manner.
Also, to those who are trolling Dragon's suggestion of hive 1 blink and removal of shadow step -- you should actually think about this solution. It's a viable one. I enjoy using shadowstep in game, but its removal may be an effective compromise to keeping a strong, mobile fade with the tradeoff that he can only throw himself forward instead of any direction at any time. The only alternative I've seen put forth that may be worth investigating is the slower ROF for swipe with a possible adrenaline nerf.
<!--quoteo(post=1976132:date=Sep 12 2012, 08:13 AM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Sep 12 2012, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976132"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doubt it. Unless your fades are dying non-stop left and right I don't see it doing much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Starting to see MisterNubs point here. Please, PLEASE, try it out first.
yeah, i think i would balance fades by lowering adrenaline benefit, slightly lowering the default energy regen, and lower the top speed of blinking while holding down the button (while retaining the momentum boost that tapping blink gives). instead of increasing resource costs. the current problem is that good fades can extend their lives indefinitely.
Comments
Edit: I don't see why you'd think that draining energy would be OP though. When playing on the Alien side, I literally never even come close to running out of energy on any lifeform with the exception of Parasite/Bile Bomb spam even without Adren. And as mentioned, the MAC has an AOE energy drain for 3 tres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't compare a hardly ever used and very specific mechanic with a simple "buy this weapon, hit mouse1"
If the flamer drains energy, this is a death sentence for every fade and lerk. As soon as you engage a flamer marine, you are dead. Either by him killing you when your energy is empty, or his teammates killing you after you killed him and ended up without energy to flee. You shouldn't switch form one extreme to another. Yes, the flamer should be feared. It should be difficult to engage a flamer marine as fade. It should be difficult to retreat if you risk to fight to long with him. But it should not be a death sentence.
With a minimal energy regen while burning (a fixed value so adrenaline don't mess this up!) you are forced to quickly end the fight or retreat. If not you will end up without energy and than dead. It would be a risk to engage a flamer and it worked very good this way in pre-adrenaline builds.
<u>At the topic of universal fades:</u>
They are universal against marines right now, yes. (But not against buildings) Restricting fades with higher energy costs for blink and swipe would force surgical strikes. Blink in; swipe 3x or 4x and blink out. If you stick longer in the fight, your energy will be empty.
Restricting the fade with lower hp has been tried and doesn't work because of shotgun luck shots. It is highly frustrating to loose a 50res life form because of bad luck.
Isn't the Onos getting buffed in the next build?
You're assuming that if the Flamethrower drained energy, you'd suddenly be left with 0 energy as soon as the flames touched you. The numbers can be adjusted. It's kind of like the guy I was arguing with earlier who claimed that if Sniper Rifles didn't one hit kill with no wobble, then everyone would use SMG's and nothing else because SMG's trump every other weapon (We weren't talking about any game in particular).
IMO the change needed is to make the abilities less spamable.. a big part of the comes from the effects of blink (and shadowstep).
Personally i believe that shadowstep should be removed (or increased to about 35-40 energy a use), and blink made hive 1 and also made to have a slightly less instant speed gain, and a little more progressive of a gain.
That and collisions need to be tweaked for the fade, if you $*#( up and blink into walls or crates or ###### you should get blocked, not just spaz around and bounce off or around what you run into.
IMO the change needed is to make the abilities less spamable.. a big part of the comes from the effects of blink (and shadowstep).
Personally i believe that shadowstep should be removed (or increased to about 35-40 energy a use), and blink made hive 1 and also made to have a slightly less instant speed gain, and a little more progressive of a gain.
That and collisions need to be tweaked for the fade, if you $*#( up and blink into walls or crates or ###### you should get blocked, not just spaz around and bounce off or around what you run into.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not just remove Blink and make Shadowstep the new Blink?
IMO the change needed is to make the abilities less spamable.. a big part of the comes from the effects of blink (and shadowstep).
Personally i believe that shadowstep should be removed (or increased to about 35-40 energy a use), and blink made hive 1 and also made to have a slightly less instant speed gain, and a little more progressive of a gain.
That and collisions need to be tweaked for the fade, if you $*#( up and blink into walls or crates or ###### you should get blocked, not just spaz around and bounce off or around what you run into.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so your solution is spam for marines vs non spam for alien? so further inhibit alien movement, for a team where movement is where they are supposed to dominate... screw it just remove all function from alien team and just turn the game into egg shoot a thon. its bad enough exos dont even have a reload.
and blink at hive 1, not even ns1 vets would have the balls to say that lol.
And making blink better basically completely removes the need for shadowstep IMO (unless its purely an evasionary skill in which case it should actually cost significant energy to use)...
Blink in NS1 was the fades only movement ability besides bhop and he seemed to do just fine from what i remember...
<!--quoteo(post=1975769:date=Sep 11 2012, 10:43 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Sep 11 2012, 10:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975769"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and blink made hive 1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
your ideas are terrible
Glad to see you present alternatives to ideas instead of just calling them ######
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Other than your attitude is terrible and you made yourself look like an ass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Glad to see you present alternatives to ideas instead of just calling them ######<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see, moving on.
In NS1, blink was the Hive1 ability. Hive2 was Regen, and Hive 3 was Acid Rocket.
In NS1, blink was the Hive1 ability. Hive2 was Regen, and Hive 3 was Acid Rocket.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, but this is NS2 where marine players won't be happy until aliens fall over dead just by looking at them.
Bads gonna be bad.
Bads gonna be bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you ever have a post that isnt "Marines are crying again" "Marines just want to win" "Marines are babies" ??
I mean.. going through your post history is telling lol
What exactly are you trying to get at. How exactly is Fade a weak class in comparison to the NS1 fade. They're functionally identical with NS2 Fade having increased mobility via shadowstep.
You just spout off nonsense and do nothing to substantiate anything you say.
You just spout off nonsense and do nothing to substantiate anything you say.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, it lacks Acid Rocket for one. AR was really rather powerful.
That doesn't make the current Fade okay though.
I mean.. going through your post history is telling lol<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope.
Because legitimate discussion or ideas that could, you know, improve alien gameplay has been ignored time and time again. That's why alien game play is abysmal and we have stupid "trade offs" in the game (carapace slowdown, celerity ceasing to work in combat), because of the constant whining by the marine player base. Any time there are alien "improvements" its always in the wrong areas (faster egg respawn rate when it's the 3-limit cap that's causing issues in larger games). So instead of repeating the same thing over and over again in hopes that it might get through when it clearly isn't going to, might as well make fun of bad marines who don't want to improve and would rather cry on the forum and get everything nerfed.
There are plenty of soft counters.
The devs have noted that it's hard to balance the Fade. It's close, but they still want to tweak a few things. But having an explicit direct counter isn't what they want. It is an expensive unit, and therefore should be more powerful than basic Marines.
With multiple Marines, better upgrades, and advanced weapons Fades can be taken down easily.
But you're right. Against new players, it's hard to track the movements. Most Fades are extremely strong veterans who can mobilize the Fade into a death machine. It takes a combination of things like Energy depletion (flamethrowers, EMPs from MACs) plus damage (shotgun, aim, GLs, Mines, more dudes) to kill one.
But that's by design.
Because legitimate discussion or ideas that could, you know, improve alien gameplay has been ignored time and time again. That's why alien game play is abysmal and we have stupid "trade offs" in the game (carapace slowdown, celerity ceasing to work in combat), because of the constant whining by the marine player base. Any time there are alien "improvements" its always in the wrong areas (faster egg respawn rate when it's the 3-limit cap that's causing issues in larger games). So instead of repeating the same thing over and over again in hopes that it might get through when it clearly isn't going to, might as well make fun of bad marines who don't want to improve and would rather cry on the forum and get everything nerfed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a pretty terrible post to make. Most all of the posters on these forums play both factions and want a balanced game. You're clearly the outlier in that you play only one faction (aliens) and it shows in your posts. As soon as you say something like "the constant whining by the marine player base" then any critical thinker dismisses the rest of your post as biased BS. If you actually wanted to affect change onto anyone's opinion then you should at least present your opinions of marine persecution in a less of a conspiritard manner.
Also, to those who are trolling Dragon's suggestion of hive 1 blink and removal of shadow step -- you should actually think about this solution. It's a viable one. I enjoy using shadowstep in game, but its removal may be an effective compromise to keeping a strong, mobile fade with the tradeoff that he can only throw himself forward instead of any direction at any time. The only alternative I've seen put forth that may be worth investigating is the slower ROF for swipe with a possible adrenaline nerf.
It could cut down on spam though. So while it won't really effect early Fade/Onos strategies too harshly, rushing with them will be much more costly.
Starting to see MisterNubs point here. Please, PLEASE, try it out first.