I think the problem with tech explosions is pretty obvious. NS has always had problems with these huge power shifts and the new res model isn't helping things out even the sligthtest.
Finding any solution to the issues at this point is pretty hard though. It's just how NS2's big design outlines go.
<!--quoteo(post=1974420:date=Sep 9 2012, 09:00 AM:name=Raneman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raneman @ Sep 9 2012, 09:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There used to be a feature to auto-turn to the marine you blinked next to a few years back, for all you 2012 reg dates calling him a liar.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was with the old insta teleport though, which I wish they had kept no matter how OP it would have been.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1974387:date=Sep 9 2012, 04:10 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Sep 9 2012, 04:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the problem with tech explosions is pretty obvious. NS has always had problems with these huge power shifts and the new res model isn't helping things out even the sligthtest.
Finding any solution to the issues at this point is pretty hard though. It's just how NS2's big design outlines go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like i said a page or two ago: <!--quoteo(post=1973040:date=Sep 6 2012, 01:43 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 6 2012, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1973040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The answer to the problem you mention above is simply lowering the starting pres as 20 starting pres is almost halfway to a fade. If the starting pres is lowered then "Mass lifeforms" are a much larger risk to save up for because you leave your team vulnerable for longer without those intermediate lifeforms to assist in the early game (hello, lerk and gorge) where every lifeform's contribution helps.
But that's not going to change until a) number of aliens in a spawn queue scale with playercount b) hydras are not dependent on pres (it doesnt have to be "free")<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And now i'll add c) if the lerk isn't massacred into uselessness edit: removed potentially nda violating stuff
Really kinda pisses me off that I can go 10-3 as a skulk whereas someone who is 1-4 and has less personal points sometimes has more personal resources just because they got lucky with the res ticks while dead. Even more frustrating when I have to sit through 2-3 spawn rotations cause of the broken alien spawn system.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And now i'll add c) if the lerk isn't massacred into uselessness<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Deleting the lerk at this point would be more beneficial to the alien team. Less people wasting p.res on a lifeform that performs worse than a free lifeform.
The problem lies with Blink. Right now even without adrenaline a Fade is essentially a big ass lerk that turns invisible and with far more killing ability, like he was in 2.0/3.0. For something that's supposed to be a shock trooper/heavy assault unit, it has far too much mobility. Blink should have an internal cooldown or something to bring down the constant usage of it. Blink should be used to enter and exit combat swiftly and unexpectedly. Not be the primary means of getting around the map. Something more along the lines of NS 1.0's blink but actually working would be more ideal than what we have now.
Yeah, I despise the current RFD system. Some useless AFK guy can be rewarded with faster lifeforms/guns when you compare it to someone who is working hard for the team. Absolutely dumb... not to mention the system unevenly punishes aliens 2-3x+ more than it does marines due to the spawning system.
<!--quoteo(post=1974538:date=Sep 9 2012, 01:56 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Sep 9 2012, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I despise the current RFD system. Some useless AFK guy can be rewarded with faster lifeforms/guns when you compare it to someone who is working hard for the team. Absolutely dumb... not to mention the system unevenly punishes aliens 2-3x+ more than it does marines due to the spawning system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't mind a flat penalty. You die, you lose 1 personal resource, but you still gain resources while dead. Them possibly bring back rfk too.
If Fades are paper weak at the moment, maybe wait untill post 1.0 for a patch on fades, I'm thinking maybe newer players will get used to the 'scare' factor of Fades (although, post 1.0, there will be even more new players ...) and there won't be as much 'need' for technically-already-weak-Fade nerfing.
The speed at which Marines on Monash are getting exo's out, Fades are getting melted.
I really wanna see Adren nerfed and Feign Death either removed or I think Gorgeous? suggested make you start with 0 energy, although I don't even know if that would work either. Both of them promote terrible Fade play atm. The tres fade eggs need serious working too. Spamming bad Fade players non-stop until the marines are out of resources isn't fun.
I have played NS1 for a few years but I only recently picked up NS2 so I am indeed a n00b. And I admit that my experience is probably because of my n00bishness. But I don't think it's a good idea to make this game only enjoyable for people who never stopped playing NS1.
I pretty much suck as marine and my long term average K:D is probably 1. My K:D as aliens is terrible (mostly skulk) but when I get the Fade my K:D skyrockets, not because I kill that many people but because I don't die.
There is no other unit like the Fade, it has no downside. The fact that they take a few seconds longer to kill buildings has been mentioned but that's it. I think choosing certain units should have a real downside. If your team invests in exo's they become killing machines but only if they're at the right location at the right time. If the aliens take a different route the exo's become expensive lawn ornaments. This is not the case for fades, they cross most maps in a few shorts moments and be where they are needed all the time. And if they are low on health, surrounded by several marines, they simply move through the marines and leave the room.
Currently in pub games (yes, there are people who want to enjoy a game with randoms now and then, not everyone plays the game 50 hours a week with a dedicated team) it's basically GG for the marines if they allow the aliens to get their first fades. On the other hand, aliens can survive the first exo's pretty well. I think something has to change but I don't think it needs to be dramatic. I think the fade just needs a downside or two to compensate for its other strengths. Maybe have a maximum per team/number of hives, reduce their damage to buildings even more (to make a team full of fades not viable) or make them lose a lot of their energy when they receive a lot of damage. Something like that.
I just know that I can't really enjoy pub games as soon as I see the first fade.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1974525:date=Sep 9 2012, 10:30 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 9 2012, 10:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974525"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lowering the initial pres isn't a good idea unless no-res-while-dead is removed.
Fades already come out very late if they're coming from pres as it's usually hard for aliens to hold more than 2-3 RTs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree to both points, but have to remind you that this is all because we have balanced a game around high starting pres.
I have been like a broken record for months, internally, saying that we should lower the pres and then deal with the consequences, because if the foundation is shoddy, then it doesn't matter how much you try to patch it the ugly mechanics will rear their head ( mechanics like mass lifeforms). You don't want to have a released product with such a fundamental flaw that slipped through the cracks with a mountain of balance changes based around this flaw. That's my opinion on the matter, at least..
I dont like RFD and i think the only thing it accomplishes could be done with said flat rate, to be exclusive from spawn timings and not interfere with low starting pres.
@misterNubs: again.. not too many in this thread are actually speaking about 1 vs 1 fades being an issue..and most people who play i think would agree it isnt. Yet the post you responded to with that 1 vs 1 comment specifically mentions "to make a team full of fades not viable" sooo.......yea..?
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2012
There's no doubt about it. Either they need to fix the underlying problem of the alien economy which leads to the "lifeform explosion" or fades need to be significantly nerfed.
Nerfing fades would have fairly drastic consequences on game balance though, so other changes would also have to be made.
<!--quoteo(post=1974688:date=Sep 9 2012, 06:25 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 9 2012, 06:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974688"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@misterNubs: again.. not too many in this thread are actually speaking about 1 vs 1 fades being an issue..and most people who play i think would agree it isnt. Yet the post you responded to with that 1 vs 1 comment specifically mentions "to make a team full of fades not viable" sooo.......yea..?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't "fix" fades without removing blink.
A group of marines can barely even kill a lerk that has slightly more than half of a fades health/armor. Of course marines are going to have issues killing a fade that utilizes blink/shadow step. Blink is the main culprit as to why it is nearly impossible to kill a fade, but removing will completely destroy the life form.
Then what do we do? Nerf upgrades? Let's look at the 3 most common upgrades fades take.
Adrenaline. How can we nerf adren? Lower the rate of energy regeneration. Good idea! Except for the fact that a decent fade can get by without even using adren and good fades utilizes hit and run tactics. This will just mean that they'll have to sit out of combat a few moments longer to regen their energy. Hurts bad fades, isn't much of a problem for good fades.
Carapace. Already has a slowdown on it. Raise the slowdown even more? So we want fades that can't move? Maybe reduce the armor amount? That just means they'll go regen, and regen doesn't work in combat already. So nothing we can really change here.
Feign. Death. Sucks. Anyway. Removing it won't mean squat. It'll hurt bad fades and that's about it. Isn't much of a problem for good fades. Shade hive is usually taken on the third hive which means that aliens have won the game already and are swimming in p.res; a death won't mean squat as they will have the res to go fade again. The alternative is silence, my personal favorite on the fade. Silent fades are scarier than feign death fades, imo. If we get rid of feign death, people will start crying about how op silence is on fades.
Okay, so we decide to nerf upgrades even more (they are already mediocre as it is). We give bad fades a bad day. Good fades are still trolling pubs and we're back to having more "fade r op" threads on the forums.
Now back to blink. Besides nerfing it into oblivion. What do we do? Add a delay between blinks? Enough of a delay to give bad marines a few cheap shots because they can't aim otherwise? Haha okay!
Before we could even truly begin to "fix" fades, there are so many fundamental issues surrounding alien game play that has to be addressed first before we destroy the one playable-resource costing life form aliens have.
Why not replace the current Blink with the Fade's dash (the shift skill)? That way they can close the distance between them and a Marine and use it to scoot away, but can't just fly all over the map. And I do mean fly. I've seen (and experienced) Fades Blinking into the air and cutting down Marines hovering near the ceiling.
<!--quoteo(post=1974741:date=Sep 9 2012, 06:51 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 9 2012, 06:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen (and experienced) Fades Blinking into the air and cutting down Marines hovering near the ceiling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f249/Techercizer/fadeweb.png" target="_blank">Good</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1974837:date=Sep 9 2012, 10:27 PM:name=paella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paella @ Sep 9 2012, 10:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974837"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a pretty cool diagram, but isn't the energy drain of the flamethrower supposed to be a fade counter?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've dumped three canisters of the Flamethrower into a lone Fade while he kept spamming Blink, killed me as I reloaded, and then Blinked away.
Flamethrower is totally useless vs Lifeforms. But, it doesn't drain energy anymore. It only slows the rate at which it's regenerated.
Proof? Weapons 2-3, 3-4 shotgun shells will kill a fade.
20 res weapon will kill a 50 res lifeform in less than half a "Magazine"
That being said, a well played fade is EXTREMELY difficult to hit, very same thing can be said about a jetpacker though.
So yeah.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3-4 shots from the SG takes 2.7-3.8 seconds. Fade kills in 2-3 swipes, which is 1.3-1.95 seconds. The Marine also has no option of disengaging, but the Fade can leave at any point, regenerate, and then return to finish the job if it fails the first time for whatever reason.
You can say 'That's why you have to use TEAMWORK', but if the Fade is using TEAMWORK, then you may as well bend over and take it like a man. With the possible exception of the Exos, the Marines just can't do enough damage quickly enough.
Edit: Actually, when playing a Fade or Onos, I'll often just use myself as a bullet sponge before heading off to heal and go back to do it again while waiting for reinforcements. Just make the Marines waste ammo, because they're really...not a threat at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1974855:date=Sep 10 2012, 08:21 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 10 2012, 08:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3-4 shots from the SG takes 2.7-3.8 seconds. Fade kills in 2-3 swipes, which is 1.3-1.95 seconds. The Marine also has no option of disengaging, but the Fade can leave at any point, regenerate, and then return to finish the job if it fails the first time for whatever reason.
You can say 'That's why you have to use TEAMWORK', but if the Fade is using TEAMWORK, then you may as well bend over and take it like a man. With the possible exception of the Exos, the Marines just can't do enough damage quickly enough.
Edit: Actually, when playing a Fade or Onos, I'll often just use myself as a bullet sponge before heading off to heal and go back to do it again while waiting for reinforcements. Just make the Marines waste ammo, because they're really...not a threat at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm usually an alien player and decided to try out marines to get a more accurate picture of both sides. So I played marines for a whole week and I really haven't noticed the problems that some marines currently have problems with. Maybe because I know the mindset of aliens, I dunno. I just kill fade after fade, lerk after lerk and sometimes onoses. Most of the time this happens after the initial purchase of a shotgun that I just repickup. I'm not saying everything is balanced, but I think some people are heavily exaggerating.
<!--quoteo(post=1974871:date=Sep 9 2012, 11:49 PM:name=Keldorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keldorn @ Sep 9 2012, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974871"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm usually an alien player and decided to try out marines to get a more accurate picture of both sides. So I played marines for a whole week and I really haven't noticed the problems that some marines currently have problems with. Maybe because I know the mindset of aliens, I dunno. I just kill fade after fade, lerk after lerk and sometimes onoses. Most of the time this happens after the initial purchase of a shotgun that I just repickup. I'm not saying everything is balanced, but I think some people are heavily exaggerating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say 'Maybe you're just playing against bad Fades', but I'd think you'd hit at least a few good ones in a week. My experience lately has been that scaring them off isn't really an issue for a group of Marines, but that's all you've done. They'll be back. And since they're not dying, the rest of their team is going Fade in the meantime. Then they just end up coming in waves, faster and faster in greater numbers until the Marines get overwhelmed. About 40% of the time once the Marines are down to their last CC, the Fades will pull back for a bit and 2-3 Onos will hit the base. Rarely a Fade or two will support them, but...half-ish of the Marines (Rest are still trying to respawn) armed only with LMG's vs multiple Onos? That never ends well. Ever.
I will ask this, though: Compared to the Aliens, did you feel like you were winning more as, the same as, or less as the Marines? Which faction made you feel 'helpless' the most? (For example, I'm a Gorge who has a nice little fortress set up, then suddenly EXOS. EXOS EVERYWHERE. I feel completely useless.) Also, what was the most common game-ending tactic on both sides? Mine has predominately been Skulk rush within the first minute and the aforementioned Fade/Onos spam for Aliens; and Exo/MAC trains for Marines.
Flamethrowers are broken vs adrenaline! They should be a fade counter.
To balance the fade, just decrease max energy and increase blink- and swipe-costs.
The fade is balanced if he has to watch his energy. Blink is already best used in short bursts. So make it cost more energy. Having only a few swipes until you need to retreat, would also make him more balanced without making him to weak or no fun to play.
And please! Fix the flamethrower vs. adrenaline. It is a support weapon but is completely canceled by adrenaline.
<!--quoteo(post=1974874:date=Sep 10 2012, 08:56 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 10 2012, 08:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974874"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will ask this, though: Compared to the Aliens, did you feel like you were winning more as, the same as, or less as the Marines? Which faction made you feel 'helpless' the most? (For example, I'm a Gorge who has a nice little fortress set up, then suddenly EXOS. EXOS EVERYWHERE. I feel completely useless.) Also, what was the most common game-ending tactic on both sides? Mine has predominately been Skulk rush within the first minute and the aforementioned Fade/Onos spam for Aliens; and Exo/MAC trains for Marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It depends, I think I was fortunate enough to usually have a marine com who knew what he was doing. I also had alot of games where everybody was silent and everybody kept rushing the same points on the map, making marines very predictable. Fades and feign death might be a bit op, since a shotgun blast from some distance in the back doesn't seem to kill them while they just blink away the moment they appear again. I'm used to not fighting straight up fights as aliens and thats what I try to do as well as marine, sitting in corners or guarding exits when a damaged lifeform tries to escape. I keep a close eye on the map for that kind of stuff. Don't fight fights you know you will lose or holds no tactical value compared to what you're losing. When I notice that big groups of marines are forming, I go for flamethrower as support if nobody else carries them. Overally its more tense playing marines, since you're more grouping up. I'd say thats a plus. You have a big advantage as marines to attack different points on the map by using phasegates while aliens have to go the long way, just switch target locations over and over.
In win ratio terms I think it was fairly even, but it depends on the map as well.
Yeah, what's up with the Flamethrower? It's rarely used. The Fade's main advantage is mobility and that relies on adrenaline/passive energy, so why isn't the Flamethrower used more often? Why is it rubbish? Shouldn't that be fixed? It would be so nice if a properly protected and supported flamethrower-Marine could "deny" Fades their mobility until their counter have been dealt with by other lifeforms (for instance a Lerk with Spikes (which are also rubbish)).
<!--quoteo(post=1974879:date=Sep 10 2012, 12:40 AM:name=Namm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namm @ Sep 10 2012, 12:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1974879"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, what's up with the Flamethrower? It's rarely used. The Fade's main advantage is mobility and that relies on adrenaline, so why isn't the Flamethrower used more often? Why is it rubbish? Shouldn't that be fixed? It would be so nice if a properly protected and supported flamethrower-Marine could "deny" Fades their mobility until their counter have been dealt with by other lifeforms (for instance a Lerk with spikes (which are also rubbish)).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flamethrower only reduces the rate at which energy is regained. Elsewhere, it does horrible damage vs Lifeforms and it's DOT is negligible even when it's not healed away. So basically, it's a close range structure-killing weapon...except you have the Grenade Launcher which is cheaper, awesome at killing lifeforms, amazing at killing structures, and long range (so you can stay out of danger while spamming) and the Switch-Axe, which has infinite 'ammo' and probably does more damage to structures than the Flamethrower.
Basically, it's both expensive <i>and</i> crap. Not a good combination. My suggestion was for the fire debuff to completely null regeneration and have the primary fire drain energy. It's damage would still be poor, so you won't be killing much with it, but it'll chase away Aliens and possibly allow the Marines to punish Fades that overextend for too long. It used to drain energy, but I don't know why that was nerfed to it's current (useless) state.
Edit: Forgot to mention...MAC's have an AOE ability that instantly drains an Alien's energy to zero (I believe) that costs 3 tres to use. Surely a weapon that costs 30 pres should be able to do more than just lower the amount of energy regened for a short period of time.
Comments
Finding any solution to the issues at this point is pretty hard though. It's just how NS2's big design outlines go.
That was with the old insta teleport though, which I wish they had kept no matter how OP it would have been.
Finding any solution to the issues at this point is pretty hard though. It's just how NS2's big design outlines go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like i said a page or two ago:
<!--quoteo(post=1973040:date=Sep 6 2012, 01:43 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 6 2012, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1973040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The answer to the problem you mention above is simply lowering the starting pres as 20 starting pres is almost halfway to a fade.
If the starting pres is lowered then "Mass lifeforms" are a much larger risk to save up for because you leave your team vulnerable for longer without those intermediate lifeforms to assist in the early game (hello, lerk and gorge) where every lifeform's contribution helps.
But that's not going to change until a) number of aliens in a spawn queue scale with playercount b) hydras are not dependent on pres (it doesnt have to be "free")<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And now i'll add c) if the lerk isn't massacred into uselessness
edit: removed potentially nda violating stuff
Fades already come out very late if they're coming from pres as it's usually hard for aliens to hold more than 2-3 RTs.
Really kinda pisses me off that I can go 10-3 as a skulk whereas someone who is 1-4 and has less personal points sometimes has more personal resources just because they got lucky with the res ticks while dead. Even more frustrating when I have to sit through 2-3 spawn rotations cause of the broken alien spawn system.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And now i'll add c) if the lerk isn't massacred into uselessness<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Deleting the lerk at this point would be more beneficial to the alien team. Less people wasting p.res on a lifeform that performs worse than a free lifeform.
I wouldn't mind a flat penalty. You die, you lose 1 personal resource, but you still gain resources while dead. Them possibly bring back rfk too.
The speed at which Marines on Monash are getting exo's out, Fades are getting melted.
I pretty much suck as marine and my long term average K:D is probably 1. My K:D as aliens is terrible (mostly skulk) but when I get the Fade my K:D skyrockets, not because I kill that many people but because I don't die.
There is no other unit like the Fade, it has no downside. The fact that they take a few seconds longer to kill buildings has been mentioned but that's it. I think choosing certain units should have a real downside. If your team invests in exo's they become killing machines but only if they're at the right location at the right time. If the aliens take a different route the exo's become expensive lawn ornaments. This is not the case for fades, they cross most maps in a few shorts moments and be where they are needed all the time. And if they are low on health, surrounded by several marines, they simply move through the marines and leave the room.
Currently in pub games (yes, there are people who want to enjoy a game with randoms now and then, not everyone plays the game 50 hours a week with a dedicated team) it's basically GG for the marines if they allow the aliens to get their first fades. On the other hand, aliens can survive the first exo's pretty well. I think something has to change but I don't think it needs to be dramatic. I think the fade just needs a downside or two to compensate for its other strengths. Maybe have a maximum per team/number of hives, reduce their damage to buildings even more (to make a team full of fades not viable) or make them lose a lot of their energy when they receive a lot of damage. Something like that.
I just know that I can't really enjoy pub games as soon as I see the first fade.
So hard 2 1v1 fade, fade op nerf nao plz k k thx bye.
Fades already come out very late if they're coming from pres as it's usually hard for aliens to hold more than 2-3 RTs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree to both points, but have to remind you that this is all because we have balanced a game around high starting pres.
I have been like a broken record for months, internally, saying that we should lower the pres and then deal with the consequences, because if the foundation is shoddy, then it doesn't matter how much you try to patch it the ugly mechanics will rear their head ( mechanics like mass lifeforms). You don't want to have a released product with such a fundamental flaw that slipped through the cracks with a mountain of balance changes based around this flaw. That's my opinion on the matter, at least..
I dont like RFD and i think the only thing it accomplishes could be done with said flat rate, to be exclusive from spawn timings and not interfere with low starting pres.
@misterNubs: again.. not too many in this thread are actually speaking about 1 vs 1 fades being an issue..and most people who play i think would agree it isnt.
Yet the post you responded to with that 1 vs 1 comment specifically mentions "to make a team full of fades not viable" sooo.......yea..?
Nerfing fades would have fairly drastic consequences on game balance though, so other changes would also have to be made.
RFD is an abomination.
auto aim. AUTO AIM? AUTO AIM!! Theres been aito aim this whole time? Or are you just trolling.
Yet the post you responded to with that 1 vs 1 comment specifically mentions "to make a team full of fades not viable" sooo.......yea..?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't "fix" fades without removing blink.
A group of marines can barely even kill a lerk that has slightly more than half of a fades health/armor. Of course marines are going to have issues killing a fade that utilizes blink/shadow step. Blink is the main culprit as to why it is nearly impossible to kill a fade, but removing will completely destroy the life form.
Then what do we do? Nerf upgrades? Let's look at the 3 most common upgrades fades take.
Adrenaline. How can we nerf adren? Lower the rate of energy regeneration. Good idea! Except for the fact that a decent fade can get by without even using adren and good fades utilizes hit and run tactics. This will just mean that they'll have to sit out of combat a few moments longer to regen their energy. Hurts bad fades, isn't much of a problem for good fades.
Carapace. Already has a slowdown on it. Raise the slowdown even more? So we want fades that can't move? Maybe reduce the armor amount? That just means they'll go regen, and regen doesn't work in combat already. So nothing we can really change here.
Feign. Death. Sucks. Anyway. Removing it won't mean squat. It'll hurt bad fades and that's about it. Isn't much of a problem for good fades. Shade hive is usually taken on the third hive which means that aliens have won the game already and are swimming in p.res; a death won't mean squat as they will have the res to go fade again. The alternative is silence, my personal favorite on the fade. Silent fades are scarier than feign death fades, imo. If we get rid of feign death, people will start crying about how op silence is on fades.
Okay, so we decide to nerf upgrades even more (they are already mediocre as it is). We give bad fades a bad day. Good fades are still trolling pubs and we're back to having more "fade r op" threads on the forums.
Now back to blink. Besides nerfing it into oblivion. What do we do? Add a delay between blinks? Enough of a delay to give bad marines a few cheap shots because they can't aim otherwise? Haha okay!
Before we could even truly begin to "fix" fades, there are so many fundamental issues surrounding alien game play that has to be addressed first before we destroy the one playable-resource costing life form aliens have.
<a href="http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f249/Techercizer/fadeweb.png" target="_blank">Good</a>
STOP NERFING YOU NERFS
I've dumped three canisters of the Flamethrower into a lone Fade while he kept spamming Blink, killed me as I reloaded, and then Blinked away.
Flamethrower is totally useless vs Lifeforms. But, it doesn't drain energy anymore. It only slows the rate at which it's regenerated.
Weapons 2-3, 3-4 shotgun shells will kill a fade.
20 res weapon will kill a 50 res lifeform in less than half a "Magazine"
That being said, a well played fade is EXTREMELY difficult to hit, very same thing can be said about a jetpacker though.
So yeah.
Proof? Weapons 2-3, 3-4 shotgun shells will kill a fade.
20 res weapon will kill a 50 res lifeform in less than half a "Magazine"
That being said, a well played fade is EXTREMELY difficult to hit, very same thing can be said about a jetpacker though.
So yeah.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3-4 shots from the SG takes 2.7-3.8 seconds. Fade kills in 2-3 swipes, which is 1.3-1.95 seconds. The Marine also has no option of disengaging, but the Fade can leave at any point, regenerate, and then return to finish the job if it fails the first time for whatever reason.
You can say 'That's why you have to use TEAMWORK', but if the Fade is using TEAMWORK, then you may as well bend over and take it like a man. With the possible exception of the Exos, the Marines just can't do enough damage quickly enough.
Edit: Actually, when playing a Fade or Onos, I'll often just use myself as a bullet sponge before heading off to heal and go back to do it again while waiting for reinforcements. Just make the Marines waste ammo, because they're really...not a threat at all.
You can say 'That's why you have to use TEAMWORK', but if the Fade is using TEAMWORK, then you may as well bend over and take it like a man. With the possible exception of the Exos, the Marines just can't do enough damage quickly enough.
Edit: Actually, when playing a Fade or Onos, I'll often just use myself as a bullet sponge before heading off to heal and go back to do it again while waiting for reinforcements. Just make the Marines waste ammo, because they're really...not a threat at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm usually an alien player and decided to try out marines to get a more accurate picture of both sides. So I played marines for a whole week and I really haven't noticed the problems that some marines currently have problems with. Maybe because I know the mindset of aliens, I dunno. I just kill fade after fade, lerk after lerk and sometimes onoses. Most of the time this happens after the initial purchase of a shotgun that I just repickup. I'm not saying everything is balanced, but I think some people are heavily exaggerating.
I'd say 'Maybe you're just playing against bad Fades', but I'd think you'd hit at least a few good ones in a week. My experience lately has been that scaring them off isn't really an issue for a group of Marines, but that's all you've done. They'll be back. And since they're not dying, the rest of their team is going Fade in the meantime. Then they just end up coming in waves, faster and faster in greater numbers until the Marines get overwhelmed. About 40% of the time once the Marines are down to their last CC, the Fades will pull back for a bit and 2-3 Onos will hit the base. Rarely a Fade or two will support them, but...half-ish of the Marines (Rest are still trying to respawn) armed only with LMG's vs multiple Onos? That never ends well. Ever.
I will ask this, though: Compared to the Aliens, did you feel like you were winning more as, the same as, or less as the Marines? Which faction made you feel 'helpless' the most? (For example, I'm a Gorge who has a nice little fortress set up, then suddenly EXOS. EXOS EVERYWHERE. I feel completely useless.) Also, what was the most common game-ending tactic on both sides? Mine has predominately been Skulk rush within the first minute and the aforementioned Fade/Onos spam for Aliens; and Exo/MAC trains for Marines.
To balance the fade, just decrease max energy and increase blink- and swipe-costs.
The fade is balanced if he has to watch his energy. Blink is already best used in short bursts. So make it cost more energy. Having only a few swipes until you need to retreat, would also make him more balanced without making him to weak or no fun to play.
And please! Fix the flamethrower vs. adrenaline. It is a support weapon but is completely canceled by adrenaline.
It depends, I think I was fortunate enough to usually have a marine com who knew what he was doing. I also had alot of games where everybody was silent and everybody kept rushing the same points on the map, making marines very predictable. Fades and feign death might be a bit op, since a shotgun blast from some distance in the back doesn't seem to kill them while they just blink away the moment they appear again. I'm used to not fighting straight up fights as aliens and thats what I try to do as well as marine, sitting in corners or guarding exits when a damaged lifeform tries to escape. I keep a close eye on the map for that kind of stuff. Don't fight fights you know you will lose or holds no tactical value compared to what you're losing. When I notice that big groups of marines are forming, I go for flamethrower as support if nobody else carries them. Overally its more tense playing marines, since you're more grouping up. I'd say thats a plus. You have a big advantage as marines to attack different points on the map by using phasegates while aliens have to go the long way, just switch target locations over and over.
In win ratio terms I think it was fairly even, but it depends on the map as well.
Flamethrower only reduces the rate at which energy is regained. Elsewhere, it does horrible damage vs Lifeforms and it's DOT is negligible even when it's not healed away. So basically, it's a close range structure-killing weapon...except you have the Grenade Launcher which is cheaper, awesome at killing lifeforms, amazing at killing structures, and long range (so you can stay out of danger while spamming) and the Switch-Axe, which has infinite 'ammo' and probably does more damage to structures than the Flamethrower.
Basically, it's both expensive <i>and</i> crap. Not a good combination. My suggestion was for the fire debuff to completely null regeneration and have the primary fire drain energy. It's damage would still be poor, so you won't be killing much with it, but it'll chase away Aliens and possibly allow the Marines to punish Fades that overextend for too long. It used to drain energy, but I don't know why that was nerfed to it's current (useless) state.
Edit: Forgot to mention...MAC's have an AOE ability that instantly drains an Alien's energy to zero (I believe) that costs 3 tres to use. Surely a weapon that costs 30 pres should be able to do more than just lower the amount of energy regened for a short period of time.